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Can amateur golfers really tell the difference?


LICC

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I went out on an empty course once and played two balls on the front 9, a Titleist and a Callaway, and then 2 different balls on the back 9, a different Titleist and a Kirkland. I saw no material difference in how the balls performed. I really think that an amateur golfer, especially anyone higher than a single-digit handicap, wouldn't be able to tell the difference among any of the top-brand balls. Sure, some may spin or check slightly differently (slightly), but you would have to hit it nearly 100% consistently every time to see that small difference. Some may have a slightly different feel off the club. But performance wise, I think people are fooling themselves thinking they can get a big difference from one ball to another.

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29 minutes ago, LICC said:

I went out on an empty course once and played two balls on the front 9, a Titleist and a Callaway, and then 2 different balls on the back 9, a different Titleist and a Kirkland. I saw no material difference in how the balls performed. I really think that an amateur golfer, especially anyone higher than a single-digit handicap, wouldn't be able to tell the difference among any of the top-brand balls. Sure, some may spin or check slightly differently (slightly), but you would have to hit it nearly 100% consistently every time to see that small difference. Some may have a slightly different feel off the club. But performance wise, I think people are fooling themselves thinking they can get a big difference from one ball to another.

Is that not a performance difference? Even that "slightly different feel off the club" can be a difference for some players. Now, there is also the argument that if I were to go out and hit a Pro V1x against a Z Star XV and one ball went 2 yards further on a particular shot, is that because of the ball, or was my swing/contact slightly different between the two balls and that explains the difference in distance? That's a much more complicated question. Is the difference in a Pro V1 and a Callaway Chromesoft and a Srixon Z Star, etc. highly exaggerated? I would say, most likely. Comparing premium balls across brands is splitting hairs on the differences between them. Is there a difference? Sure. Are those differences perceptible to the person? That's entirely depends on their sensitivity, not just to the performance, but also the feel, the sound, and any number of other factors. If someone "feels" more confident with a Pro V1 than anything else, by all means, play a Pro V1. 

When I was playing tennis, I was sensitive enough to things like what brand/model of tennis ball was being used. I could feel the weight difference at contact. I could feel if my grips were overlapping too much or too little. I could feel when the strings had lost a certain amount of their original elasticity. I was that sensitive to those things. It's absolutely possible that someone is that sensitive to the interaction between a golf club and a golf ball, and feel, real or perceived, has a lot to do with confidence and performance. 

Driver: PXG 0811XF Gen 4 w/ Fujikura Motore X F3 6- 
3 Wood: PXG 0341XF Gen 4 w/ Mitsubishi Diamana S+ 70g
Hybrids: 19 and 22 degree PXG 0317XF Gen 4 w/ Project X Evenflow Riptide 80g
Irons: 5-PW PXG 0311P Gen 4 w/ KBS Tour 120
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14 minutes ago, RichL85 said:

Is that not a performance difference? Even that "slightly different feel off the club" can be a difference for some players. Now, there is also the argument that if I were to go out and hit a Pro V1x against a Z Star XV and one ball went 2 yards further on a particular shot, is that because of the ball, or was my swing/contact slightly different between the two balls and that explains the difference in distance? That's a much more complicated question. Is the difference in a Pro V1 and a Callaway Chromesoft and a Srixon Z Star, etc. highly exaggerated? I would say, most likely. Comparing premium balls across brands is splitting hairs on the differences between them. Is there a difference? Sure. Are those differences perceptible to the person? That's entirely depends on their sensitivity, not just to the performance, but also the feel, the sound, and any number of other factors. If someone "feels" more confident with a Pro V1 than anything else, by all means, play a Pro V1. 

When I was playing tennis, I was sensitive enough to things like what brand/model of tennis ball was being used. I could feel the weight difference at contact. I could feel if my grips were overlapping too much or too little. I could feel when the strings had lost a certain amount of their original elasticity. I was that sensitive to those things. It's absolutely possible that someone is that sensitive to the interaction between a golf club and a golf ball, and feel, real or perceived, has a lot to do with confidence and performance. 

I agree if one ball feels a bit better than another off the club to someone, they may feel more confident playing it. But I don't think anyone should expect to add 10 yards by using one ball over another, or that one ball will stop within 3 feet on the green while another will fly off the back, on the same swing. Like you said, it's a splitting hairs difference.

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I just played in an alternate shot event.  I play a Maxfli Tour X ball and my partner was playing a Srixon QStar ball.  The Maxfli is a high compression ball whereas the Srixon was a lower compression ball.  I could certainly feel and sense the differences between the balls, not only on the longer shots, but also the shorter wedges and the putter.  I don't know of any quantitative difference in distance or spin that I may have experienced (if any was due to the ball or my ball striking), but I know it was definitely a feel issue.  I definitely putted my ball better than his.   If and when we play another alternate shot format game, I will talk him into using one of my balls (or, at least one that is very similar).

Driver: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max (10.5* set at -1 and neutral) -- Mitsubishi Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Fairway: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 3 wood (16.5*) and Heaven Wood (20*)-- Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Hybrids: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 5H (23*)--Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Irons:  :callaway-small: Apex CF19 6-9, PW, AW -- KBS Tour Graphite  TGI 70 shafts R +1/2 inch 3* upright

Wedges: Edison 53* and  57* KBS PGI 80 Graphite +1/2 inch 2* upright

Putter: L.A.B. DF 2.1 -- BGT Stability shaft

Ball:  Maxfli TourX...Golf Bag: :ping-small: Pioneer...Shoes: :footjoy-small: Hyperflex... Glove: Red Rooster Feather

 

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5 hours ago, LICC said:

I went out on an empty course once and played two balls on the front 9, a Titleist and a Callaway, and then 2 different balls on the back 9, a different Titleist and a Kirkland. I saw no material difference in how the balls performed. I really think that an amateur golfer, especially anyone higher than a single-digit handicap, wouldn't be able to tell the difference among any of the top-brand balls. Sure, some may spin or check slightly differently (slightly), but you would have to hit it nearly 100% consistently every time to see that small difference. Some may have a slightly different feel off the club. But performance wise, I think people are fooling themselves thinking they can get a big difference from one ball to another.

I've tested a whole lot of balls on course and with a LM. If you are a middle of the bell curve player for launch conditions you can m probably play just about any of the balls out there without seeing much difference. 

If you are off to either side of that curve by a decent amount then I think big performance differences can be seen.

I.e. if you are hitting your driver with 2700 rpm of backspin a Prov1 dropping that to 2400 or a Kirkland spinning at 3000 both probably work out about the same.  But if you are a high or low spin player they would offer a pretty noticeable difference.

It's very possible that you are solid middle of the curve(which most people are because you know,  math). So very easily,  you can play about anything.  I know @fixyurdivotcan play anything and it works out about the same for him.  For me,  I have a group that are about the same. But if I try a low spin option( zstar, prov1, etc) I lose about 20 yards on the course(less on a lm, they tend to give extra yards to low rpm shots).

So yeah,  you are probably right most of the time.

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FW Wood:     th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg Gen5 0311 7w  Fujikura Motore X F3

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13 hours ago, LICC said:

I agree if one ball feels a bit better than another off the club to someone, they may feel more confident playing it. But I don't think anyone should expect to add 10 yards by using one ball over another, or that one ball will stop within 3 feet on the green while another will fly off the back, on the same swing. Like you said, it's a splitting hairs difference.

I see huge difference in balls. The original chrome soft was significantly shorter off the tee compared to the b330 balls and prov1.

The Srixon balls for me also played a noticeable difference shorter tee to green compared to tp5 and 5x and prov1 and 1x.

Old playing partners of mine that were 12-15 handicaps who don’t drive the ball more than 230 in the air also notice difference with balls. One prefers the q star over Callaway and Prov1, the other likes the original chromesoft over the prov1. 
 

We all see difference in how the balls react on chips, pitches and anything less than full shots.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I see huge difference in balls. The original chrome soft was significantly shorter off the tee compared to the b330 balls and prov1.

The Srixon balls for me also played a noticeable difference shorter tee to green compared to tp5 and 5x and prov1 and 1x.

Old playing partners of mine that were 12-15 handicaps who don’t drive the ball more than 230 in the air also notice difference with balls. One prefers the q star over Callaway and Prov1, the other likes the original chromesoft over the prov1. 
 

We all see difference in how the balls react on chips, pitches and anything less than full shots.

 

From what I've seen, at that level it's all in people's heads IMO. Mid or higher handicaps are not spot-on consistent with their swings, especially chips and pitches, and they think the differences are the balls after trying different ones once or twice when in reality different balls won't perform all that differently for those handicap levels.

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46 minutes ago, LICC said:

From what I've seen, at that level it's all in people's heads IMO. Mid or higher handicaps are not spot-on consistent with their swings, especially chips and pitches, and they think the differences are the balls after trying different ones once or twice when in reality different balls won't perform all that differently for those handicap levels.

They don’t have to be spot on everytime. Mid to high handicaps make the same swing movement on every swing what they don’t do is have good face control because of poor mechanics and that is where the inconsistency comes in. Their ability to make the same swing compensation from swing to swing isn’t consistent.

They can tell the difference between balls based on the results of shots. A slice that doesn’t move as much with one ball vs another will be noticeable as will the end result. A ball hit off the toe with one ball vs another. Same with balls hit off the bottom of the driver face the difference in flight can be seen same with off the high toe on drivers.

Differences around the green with how balls react with chips and pitches.

One of my mid hdcp friends before he passed away a few years ago had a good short game. It’s what kept him in the 12-15 range. He preferred the chromesoft because of how it played around the green with his game compared to Srixon and Bridgestone. He would have liked to stay with the Prov1 but because of its performance difference off the tee compared to chromesoft it wasn’t best for his game

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I'm not that perceptive, so, I do what MGS tells me to do. I play the Maxfli tour x.  

Driver        Ping G430

Fairway      Ping G400

Hybrid       Ping G400    

Irons          Mizuno 921

wedges      Titlest Vokey

Putter         ER8

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16 hours ago, LICC said:

I went out on an empty course once and played two balls on the front 9, a Titleist and a Callaway, and then 2 different balls on the back 9, a different Titleist and a Kirkland. I saw no material difference in how the balls performed. I really think that an amateur golfer, especially anyone higher than a single-digit handicap, wouldn't be able to tell the difference among any of the top-brand balls. Sure, some may spin or check slightly differently (slightly), but you would have to hit it nearly 100% consistently every time to see that small difference. Some may have a slightly different feel off the club. But performance wise, I think people are fooling themselves thinking they can get a big difference from one ball to another.

I totally agree.  The higher the handicap, the less likely it is you can notice a difference between different balls.   I'm a high handicap, so realistically the distance I can expect to hit a given club has a range of probably +/- 10 yards.  It is not possible for me to separate the possible differences in ball performance from just my normal swing "performance". 

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I suck and I can feel the difference in some balls.  Tried a Cally SuperSoft the other day and it felt nothing like the Maxfli Tour X and Vice Pro Plus balls I have been playing.  It felt soft and heavy off the driver. 

I don't really care too much about the feel though, but just how they react on pitches and chips.  I like a urethane ball and most will do fine, but some like the original AVX and current Tour B RXS are just awful around the greens IMO.  They don't check well enough for small fast greens. 

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A slice that doesn’t move as much with one ball vs another will be noticeable as will the end result.

I can't imagine how any recreational golfer would be able to identify this. A golfer's swing variation will affect how much of a slice results way more than a change in ball. 

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While I can hardly tell with my woods, I can really tell with my wedges and putter.  Since I have trouble with my GIR, I have had lots of practice with shots around the green.  The best ball I have found for green side spin was Bridgestone BX-S (2018) or the Taylor Made TP-5 (2020-2022).  For mid irons I like the Pro V1 (2021-2022). Long irons I like the AVX.  When it comes to my woods I don’t get much feel except when I hit a Pinnacle or Top Flite.  Just like rocks !!!

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Off the tee, I would need to hit side by side to compare different balls which I haven't done.  I do know that I was used to playing pro-v1s and I got a deal on a box of Qstars.  My approach shots would consistently go off the back of the green with the qstars and even on short chips.  I just couldn't get them to spin like the pro v's.  I gave up on them.

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I wouldn't say that I really feel a big difference between balls but I have found a real tangible scoring difference.  I was wondering the exact same thing and at the beginning of this year ran an experiment for the season.  I belong to a private course and play almost everyday during the summer.  Three days a week I play by myself.  During those rounds, I played two balls independently for the entire round.  I used a TP5x and a ProV1, different manufacturers and different styles of balls.  After playing 30+ rounds in this manner, I found that I played the ProV1 to a handicap index of 10.2 whereas the TP5x played to a 11.5.   That is significant.  I'd been playing TP5x for the last couple of years, I've switched exclusively to ProV1 now.  In looking at my data, I see that the biggest difference was on approach shots.  I'm not a big hitter, 7 iron carries 160, but I do hit it straight.  I just seem to get more consistent distance with a ProV1 off my irons.

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19 minutes ago, Mckrakon said:

I know from launch monitor data that the KIRKLAND 2.0 loses Driver distance off the tee, great with irons, feels nice. 

I use launch monitor data too. I see no significant difference with driver distance between Kirkland 2.0, Titleists, Callaways, etc.

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9 minutes ago, redhillaz said:

I wouldn't say that I really feel a big difference between balls but I have found a real tangible scoring difference.  I was wondering the exact same thing and at the beginning of this year ran an experiment for the season.  I belong to a private course and play almost everyday during the summer.  Three days a week I play by myself.  During those rounds, I played two balls independently for the entire round.  I used a TP5x and a ProV1, different manufacturers and different styles of balls.  After playing 30+ rounds in this manner, I found that I played the ProV1 to a handicap index of 10.2 whereas the TP5x played to a 11.5.   That is significant.  I'd been playing TP5x for the last couple of years, I've switched exclusively to ProV1 now.  In looking at my data, I see that the biggest difference was on approach shots.  I'm not a big hitter, 7 iron carries 160, but I do hit it straight.  I just seem to get more consistent distance with a ProV1 off my irons.

That's interesting. Would you mix up which ball you teed up first? I wonder whether your second swings would more often produce better hits than your first, regardless of ball.

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For me personally yes. I did a ball fitting and after was told to go onto the course and try 3 various balls. I just happen to get to play by myself shortly after and it was amazing to me the difference off the tee and with the mid to longer irons.

I play the B-XS as a result but am thinking about changing again because I spin them way too much. Back to the drawing board for another test.

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  • 3 Wood - Callaway Paradym X 16.5 - Project X HZDRS Gen 4 50
  • 5 Wood - Callaway Paradym X 18.5 - Project X HZDRS Gen 4 50
  • Irons - Ping i20s 4 - PW - Project X 6.0
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Agreed with OP 

“any” difference for mid high handicappers is negated by the inconsistency of their swing/strike/ and everything else that makes them a mid high handicapper.

In other words a better ball will not reduce their handicap, one may ‘feel’ better than another but the scores won’t change !

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Extremely high handicap here, but yeah, I can feel a difference, and the closer the shot is to the hole the more pronounced it is. Of course, the variations in performance between balls are minuscule compared to the variations in results because of my swing inconsistencies, but there are definitely balls I prefer to putt, pitch or hit with a short iron. Most of that is more consistent distance control for me.

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18 hours ago, LICC said:

I went out on an empty course once and played two balls on the front 9, a Titleist and a Callaway, and then 2 different balls on the back 9, a different Titleist and a Kirkland. I saw no material difference in how the balls performed. I really think that an amateur golfer, especially anyone higher than a single-digit handicap, wouldn't be able to tell the difference among any of the top-brand balls. Sure, some may spin or check slightly differently (slightly), but you would have to hit it nearly 100% consistently every time to see that small difference. Some may have a slightly different feel off the club. But performance wise, I think people are fooling themselves thinking they can get a big difference from one ball to another.

I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole here but I'll share two examples I've seen where differences are there:

1.  For myself.  I've tried a number of balls over the years and have seen very different results from Bridgestone, Snell, Callaway, and Titleist balls (talking all of the top-level tour style balls here).  I even see a difference in my ball flight from a ProV1 and a ProV1x.  I am no pro, and sure on one single shot there are other factors at play, but I know what I expect a "good" swing to look like when I play with a ProV1x and I've played with other balls that produced very different launch angles, and landing conditions.  I don't think anyone is debating that feel is significantly different, but I see it in performance as well.

2.  For my father.  He is an aging, slow swing speed player.  For years he has been playing noodles, and for years he has been watching his golf ball land, release, and roll of the back of the green.  For Father's Day I got him some of the Maxfli Tour balls.  He loves them and has noticed a difference in his balls landing and actually staying on the green.  The clubs are the same, the course is the same (it has changed his game from spring to fall, so not just a seasonal thing) and he's enjoying the game a bit more again now.

I guess it all depends on what you are looking for as "material differences".  For me, the difference is material enough to justify playing the ball I play.  For you it clearly is not.  We all have different expectations on the course, maybe yours are such that you see no difference, while others do.

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I somewhat agree with the premise, but I would change the distinction from "amateur" golfers to "new" golfers.  I play with some people that have golfed all their lives, still shoot 90s-100s, and have a good feel for what works and doesn't for them. 

Now, new golfers (in their first or second season), or the very casual player that gets out once or twice a year, would fall within the parameters you mentioned.  They haven't played enough to tell the difference between anything.  They could have an entirely fitted bag or a collection of nonsense from Goodwill and play exactly the same.  I'll use myself as an example.  I started playing last year and it wasn't until late this summer that I really started to hit the ball consistently enough that I could tell the difference in my equipment.

There's a lot of consumerism and marketing to all this.  ProV vs TP5.  Chevy vs Ford.  Coke vs Pepsi.  They're basically the same but the subtle differences are indeed there.

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5 minutes ago, JerryB said:

but I would change the distinction from "amateur" golfers to "new" golfers

Totally agree with this comment Jerry.  Even the generalization of Mid or High handicap players is too broad in my opinion.  There are detectible differences between balls, no matter what your handicap is.  It is a matter of feeling and seeing enough shots with different balls to be able to comprehend what they are - and how to use that information to improve your game.  Reaction off the club face, effect of spin in the air, reaction when the ball hits the ground... all are ball specific, though some are more nuanced than others. 

But I will agree that a "less experienced" golfer may not be able to tell the difference or have one ball change the outcome of their game drastically - mainly because they aren't educated with enough of their own shots to comprehend the differences.  An avid golfer (amateur in any handicap range), in my opinion, can have a preference and improved performance based on the ball they play.

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I was going to reply on-topic, but then I saw the creator of the thread… No use.

Why is MGS promoting THIS thread on social media?! Crazy.

Enjoy.

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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Askgolfnut just uploaded a Video of ProV1's vs Srixon/Wilson budget Ionomer balls with different clubs. Tldr; For driver, longer irons and chipping there's very little difference. A good player will notice those little differences, a higher handicapper probably won't be consistent enough for it to matter. However, on fuller shots with higher lofted club's - ie 9 irons down into wedges, depending on your lofts - it's an entirely different story: Both the Srixon AD333 and the Wilson Ultra rolled up the face - despite him making good contact - and spun in the 4000's, while the ProV's got 'grabbed' properly by the lower grooves and spun over 11000(!). What that means for both shot accuracy as well as stopping power is pretty obvious.

So what does that mean for the higher handicapper? If you can afford an urethane ball - no matter which one - and/or don't lose a lot of balls, go for an urethane ball. Ionomer balls simply don't work for that type of approach shot. Unfortunately it's an important shot that golfers are facing multiple times every round.

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Callaway Rogue ST Max 10.5°

TaylorMade Stealth 3HL 16.5°

Cobra LTDx 7W 21.5°

Callaway Rogue CF18 Hybrid 24°

Callaway Rogue CF18 5i-PW

Cleveland CBX2 49° + 54°, CBX Full Face 58°

TaylorMade Spider Tour Black #3

Vice Pro/Wilson Triad

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

I can't imagine how any recreational golfer would be able to identify this. A golfer's swing variation will affect how much of a slice results way more than a change in ball. 

That’s fine you can’t but as you can see in the thread lots of people can. You question a lot of thing d people say, do that go against your opinions beliefs and refuse to accept what others have for opinions and beliefs which is also fine.

Anybody that knows and understands their game will be able to say if there is a difference or not.

When I’m testing balls it’s in a course I know well so that I judge based on where I know my good and bad shots go. I use past experience to judge results. This is how most people I know test equipment including balls.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Given all the TXG videos on how they can change so so much just by using a different golf ball I just can't buy into this. I do feel a big difference between golf balls and know which ones lead me to better results on the course. I am certainly no pro and sit right in that 9-11 hdcp range. 

I would almost put it down to the clubs you (as in amateurs) that can lead to a more generic feeling between ball to ball. 

That being said I am sure there are certain swing types and golfers that truly don't see the benefits between one ball vs another, however those who struggle with certain shapes or swing patters can often benefit from a ball that will naturally give more or less spin. 

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

Wedge:  Toura Golf - A Spec 53,37,61 degree 

Putter:  Screenshot 2023-06-02 13.10.30.png Mezz Max!

Balls:     Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange)

 

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