MGS Off-Season Speed Challenge

[AndySP]

56 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

I think I got an email about the same blog post from Fit for Golf today and it makes sense. I think @Getoffmylawn can attest that simple strength training will only get you so far

Haha, there you go, I must have read it early in the morning when I was too tired to remember it well. I should go back and look more carefully. I have always done some jumps as part of the workout, but I definitely felt less springy lately, so I’m blaming the squats for now. I always hear him talking up sprints too…but that’s a tall order in new jersey winters. 

[edingc]

9 hours ago, ejgaudette said:

I think I got an email about the same blog post from Fit for Golf today and it makes sense. I think @Getoffmylawn can attest that simple strength training will only get you so far and they you do need those speed elements to take advantage of the strength you build. So I think it makes sense that you would rotate between times where you work to build some strength and then back off to focus on speed, and cycle like that a bit. Be sure to share with us how it goes!

Mike's blog was good. I know I fall into the category of people who are probably close to tapped out on the neurological adaption/fast twitch gains. I think those of us who spent a lot of time in rotational sports (i.e. hockey, baseball) probably tend to swing faster than our raw strength levels would otherwise indicate. I fall far short of Mike's recommended 1 RMs, which I think is the next step to me getting faster. 

That being said, there are lots of disadvantages of going for strength gains while trying for speed gains. I think my overall soreness level plays a factor in producing speed, and while I'm trying to eat more to facilitate muscle growth, that tends to make me feel heavy and slow when swinging a club.

[edingc]

Still closely monitoring my 6 iron and driver speeds but no movement for the past two weeks, in fact I think I'm down 1-2 MPH. On the flip side, my ball speeds/estimated carry are becoming more stable in the upper 160s/270+ range so that's a positive of all of the driver swings. 

I'm a few workouts into Full Speed Spectrum on The Stack and have occassionally had a couple of "Wow, that was fast!" swings, but I haven't been able to capture that on every swing just yet. I've really been trying to feel what happens on those faster swings, but it's so hard to figure that out!

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

36 minutes ago, edingc said:

Still closely monitoring my 6 iron and driver speeds but no movement for the past two weeks, in fact I think I'm down 1-2 MPH. On the flip side, my ball speeds/estimated carry are becoming more stable in the upper 160s/270+ range so that's a positive of all of the driver swings. 

I'm a few workouts into Full Speed Spectrum on The Stack and have occassionally had a couple of "Wow, that was fast!" swings, but I haven't been able to capture that on every swing just yet. I've really been trying to feel what happens on those faster swings, but it's so hard to figure that out!

Do you feel like the strikes are cleaner/squarer? If it is what do you attribute that to? Just repetition, the actual speed training?

[GolfSpy AFG]

9 hours ago, AndySP said:

Haha, there you go, I must have read it early in the morning when I was too tired to remember it well. I should go back and look more carefully. I have always done some jumps as part of the workout, but I definitely felt less springy lately, so I’m blaming the squats for now. I always hear him talking up sprints too…but that’s a tall order in new jersey winters. 

 

26 minutes ago, edingc said:

Mike's blog was good. I know I fall into the category of people who are probably close to tapped out on the neurological adaption/fast twitch gains. I think those of us who spent a lot of time in rotational sports (i.e. hockey, baseball) probably tend to swing faster than our raw strength levels would otherwise indicate. I fall far short of Mike's recommended 1 RMs, which I think is the next step to me getting faster. 

That being said, there are lots of disadvantages of going for strength gains while trying for speed gains. I think my overall soreness level plays a factor in producing speed, and while I'm trying to eat more to facilitate muscle growth, that tends to make me feel heavy and slow when swinging a club.

Really interesting discussion.

I think there's no question that doing strength training and speed training in concert, in other words running a speed training program and strength training program simultaneously, can have a near-term effect of slowing your speed gains. There have been more than a few Stack sessions where I'm still dealing with some soreness or tightness in a particular muscle group. And, I won't deny that my strength training efforts have as much to do with vanity and wanting to look good on the beach as it does with speed gains.

But, I would also argue a few points:  

1) Strength training has a long term benefit relative to speed training of raising your ceiling for speed.  In other words, a strength-trained athlete is raising their potential for speed versus a non-strength-trained athlete.

2) That said, for your gym training to translate to speed training the emphasis has to be on ballistic/explosive movements.  Jumps, med ball work, etc., performed as the priority in your gym time.

3) Most of us overlook the necessity of recovering from our workouts.  I know as I age, I'm sore/fatigued for longer, and it's become more and more important to do stretching and mobility work, foam roll, massage gun, sufficient nutrition, and SLEEP.  If you're not willing to allow the time and invest the time to properly recover, any kind of training is nearly pointless.  Recover recover recover.

My two cents.  I like to think I know enough that this is actually more like three cents.  

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

Just now, Getoffmylawn said:

 

Really interesting discussion.

I think there's no question that doing strength training and speed training in concert, in other words running a speed training program and strength training program simultaneously, can have a near-term effect of slowing your speed gains. There have been more than a few Stack sessions where I'm still dealing with some soreness or tightness in a particular muscle group. And, I won't deny that my strength training efforts have as much to do with vanity and wanting to look good on the beach as it does with speed gains.

But, I would also argue a few points:  

1) Strength training has a long term benefit relative to speed training of raising your ceiling for speed.  In other words, a strength-trained athlete is raising their potential for speed versus a non-strength-trained athlete.

2) That said, for your gym training to translate to speed training the emphasis has to be on ballistic/explosive movements.  Jumps, med ball work, etc., performed as the priority in your gym time.

3) Most of us overlook the necessity of recovering from our workouts.  I know as I age, I'm sore/fatigued for longer, and it's become more and more important to do stretching and mobility work, foam roll, massage gun, sufficient nutrition, and SLEEP.  If you're not willing to allow the time and invest the time to properly recover, any kind of training is nearly pointless.  Recover recover recover.

My two cents.  I like to think I know enough that this is actually more like three cents.  

Number 3 is huge. I would add know your limits too. I know for me getting back into things I used to do can be frustrating, “I used to be able to do this in this amount of time”, have to be able to set that aside and understand you can maybe get back there but will take time. 
 

for the speed vs strength, greet description there. I would add “twitch” or “reflex” reactions will optimize the strength built up.I associate speed with that muscle reaction.

[ejgaudette]

7 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

 

Really interesting discussion.

I think there's no question that doing strength training and speed training in concert, in other words running a speed training program and strength training program simultaneously, can have a near-term effect of slowing your speed gains. There have been more than a few Stack sessions where I'm still dealing with some soreness or tightness in a particular muscle group. And, I won't deny that my strength training efforts have as much to do with vanity and wanting to look good on the beach as it does with speed gains.

But, I would also argue a few points:  

1) Strength training has a long term benefit relative to speed training of raising your ceiling for speed.  In other words, a strength-trained athlete is raising their potential for speed versus a non-strength-trained athlete.

2) That said, for your gym training to translate to speed training the emphasis has to be on ballistic/explosive movements.  Jumps, med ball work, etc., performed as the priority in your gym time.

3) Most of us overlook the necessity of recovering from our workouts.  I know as I age, I'm sore/fatigued for longer, and it's become more and more important to do stretching and mobility work, foam roll, massage gun, sufficient nutrition, and SLEEP.  If you're not willing to allow the time and invest the time to properly recover, any kind of training is nearly pointless.  Recover recover recover.

My two cents.  I like to think I know enough that this is actually more like three cents.  

As always great info and yes the recovery is absolutely huge to helping all of this work right.

[edingc]

12 minutes ago, Lacassem said:

Do you feel like the strikes are cleaner/squarer? If it is what do you attribute that to? Just repetition, the actual speed training?

Some is intentional technique/swing feel changes. I really liked the Drew Cooper/TXG video posted here a few pages back because some of his speed keys also were good for me technique wise.

I think the bigger factor is that I'm really only focused on two things right now - club speed and ball flight. It's forcing my swing/body to self-organize a lot better. I think having speed as my focus has freed up a lot of mental thoughts of getting to X, Y or Z position and just generally leads to a more fluid swing.

[ejgaudette]

On another note I am finally ready to announce the prize we are shooting for here, besides hitting bombs, drum roll please

The winner will be the first recipient of the Golden Hammer X to show off just how fast they are now.......

and more usefully @gavinski91 has been gracious enough to donate the following head cover as a prize as well. So big thank you and good luck to everyone as well.

https://www.crowngolf.net/products/just-bomb-it-driver-cover

 

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

30 minutes ago, edingc said:

Some is intentional technique/swing feel changes. I really liked the Drew Cooper/TXG video posted here a few pages back because some of his speed keys also were good for me technique wise.

I think the bigger factor is that I'm really only focused on two things right now - club speed and ball flight. It's forcing my swing/body to self-organize a lot better. I think having speed as my focus has freed up a lot of mental thoughts of getting to X, Y or Z position and just generally leads to a more fluid swing.

Love this analysis and thought process.

[GolfSpy AFG]

20 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

On another note I am finally ready to announce the prize we are shooting for here, besides hitting bombs, drum roll please

The winner will be the first recipient of the Golden Hammer X to show off just how fast they are now.......

and more usefully @gavinski91 has been gracious enough to donate the following head cover as a prize as well. So big thank you and good luck to everyone as well.

https://www.crowngolf.net/products/just-bomb-it-driver-cover

 

Nice!

There will also be a good-natured prize for our last place finish, but that will be revealed in March...wouldn't want anyone sandbagging to come in last...

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Agree on recovery and sleep. I notice myself getting 9-10 hours of sleep following a session and then the night before at least getting 8 hours prior. With my hip I’ve been modifying my workouts and am back on track. 

[THEZIPR23]

Had a nice jump in some of the heavier weights on stack last night. Really focusing on lower body sequencing and pushing up through the ground. Hopefully it sticks, 195 weight didn't see much of a jump though. Only 1 mph. I expect my end of the month check in will be a significant jump. At least that's my hope. 

[BMart519]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:56 AM, ejgaudette said:

Next we have the latest leader board with the speed checks that have come in and we have a new leader! @Vegan_Golfer_PNW takes a narrow lead after gaining 6 mph all ready to 115. Followed closely by @snicerz only about 1 behind. Before a bigger gap to those around a score of 32 including myself @Getoffmylawn @Bohnson@edingc  and @RichL85 (sorry for missing that update) with plenty of others in shouting distance. Keep sending in updates. I won't post a new leader board for a bit but happy to update with any checks you want to submit. Keep getting faster everyone!

@ejgaudette - can you use my update below for check in #1? I will be away from the Konica Minolta Swing Vision lab on vacation until late December or early January. 

On 11/20/2022 at 11:44 PM, BMart519 said:

Check in #1 - 110 mph

Instructor has me focussing on shifting towards the target in the downswing. Hanging back, jumping up/extending and rotating. Trying to add that on top of the Drew Cooper moves. The smother hooks persist from the end of the season. But I’m going to try to keep hitting the ball as hard as possible. 

 

[ejgaudette]

32 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

@ejgaudette - can you use my update below for check in #1? I will be away from the Konica Minolta Swing Vision lab on vacation until late December or early January. 

 

Sure thing I will move you up to 105.9

[AndySP]

10 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I think there's no question that doing strength training and speed training in concert, in other words running a speed training program and strength training program simultaneously, can have a near-term effect of slowing your speed gains. 

Yeah, I agree with your 3 points. My last ditch effort to gain speed might involve a full periodization program, where I spend few weeks focused on strength, followed by a few weeks on power to consolidate the new (hopefully) higher threshold. I don’t think I’ve seen a study favoring that version more than combining them in single workouts, but I haven’t looked in a long time. I’m curious what causes the slow-down, and whether the speed work at some point isn’t good enough to make gains. 
 

Extra strength training definitely seems to require more sleep and some active recovery before feeling decent again which has affected a few things at once. When I was training strength for a different sport I was able to progress when I did my workout, followed by an active recovery day, then another rest day before starting again. That schedule is tough to do with my work/life balance now. 
 

at least no matter what we should all feel better physically come March, which is a huge.

[GolfSpy AFG]

14 hours ago, AndySP said:

Yeah, I agree with your 3 points. My last ditch effort to gain speed might involve a full periodization program, where I spend few weeks focused on strength, followed by a few weeks on power to consolidate the new (hopefully) higher threshold. I don’t think I’ve seen a study favoring that version more than combining them in single workouts, but I haven’t looked in a long time. I’m curious what causes the slow-down, and whether the speed work at some point isn’t good enough to make gains. 
 

Extra strength training definitely seems to require more sleep and some active recovery before feeling decent again which has affected a few things at once. When I was training strength for a different sport I was able to progress when I did my workout, followed by an active recovery day, then another rest day before starting again. That schedule is tough to do with my work/life balance now. 
 

at least no matter what we should all feel better physically come March, which is a huge.

I'm curious, what exactly is your routine?  From a generic standpoint, can you describe a workout?  I'm assuming you do your overspeed/underspeed speed training, then move on to the gym immediately thereafter?  Or are the two sessions more spaced out than that?  Can you describe a gym workout?  And how often per week?

Sorry if I'm asking for a lot, just curious and hoping to be helpful...

[AndySP]

5 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I'm curious, what exactly is your routine?  From a generic standpoint, can you describe a workout?  I'm assuming you do your overspeed/underspeed speed training, then move on to the gym immediately thereafter?  Or are the two sessions more spaced out than that?  Can you describe a gym workout?  And how often per week?

Sorry if I'm asking for a lot, just curious and hoping to be helpful...

No worries, I really appreciate any advice. I follow the stack workout, so typically Tues, Thurs, Sat for those workouts. Immediately after stack, I do my strength training at home. Before December, I would do 3-4 sets of 5-8 reps of 4-5 of the exercises below:

plyo box jumps, weighted jumps, one leg jumps, torso rotations, one arm flys, dynamic push-ups (and then my climbing exercises which are assisted one-arm pull-ups, front levers and finger training)

Since December, I’ve split my workout into three parts, still 3x5 give or take.

1. jumps, plyo push-ups (finger training stuff)

2. Weighted split squats, pull-ups/levers, and face-pulls

3. single leg dead lifts, torso rotation or flys, finger training

I try pretty hard (I think). It takes me about 30 minutes to get through it all, I circuit through each part and typically finish gasping for air, but not dead tired. 

[edingc]

Normal Saturday garage session today. Starting to find some good feels that are translating to more speed. Driver dispersion is also much improved.

Set a new personal best ball speed and the highest swing speed I've recorded this winter on the same swing!

Final three swings were 117.4, 117.1 and 116.4. And all were piped down the (virtual) fairway.

[DPattGolf]

I just did my speed check in after 8 SuperSpeed sessions and my Driver Club head speed is now up to 119mph. Pretty happy with that considering its usually been below 40 degrees when I have done speed training or when I tested today.

[GolfSpy AFG]

@ejgaudette, had an idea (open to input from others) but what do you think about updating the leaderboard with a parentheses entry after the username to add what speed training system they're using?  In other words, I'd be "Getoffmytlawn (Team Stack)".  

And, what do you think about finding a way on our leaderboard to aggregate the team scores?  A Team Stack speed increase store, a Team Rypstick score, etc?

I'm just thinking we're primarily an equipment forum..might be interesting info (even if not all that useful) to see which speed training system produces the most gains.

[ejgaudette]

1 hour ago, Getoffmylawn said:

@ejgaudette, had an idea (open to input from others) but what do you think about updating the leaderboard with a parentheses entry after the username to add what speed training system they're using?  In other words, I'd be "Getoffmytlawn (Team Stack)".  

And, what do you think about finding a way on our leaderboard to aggregate the team scores?  A Team Stack speed increase store, a Team Rypstick score, etc?

I'm just thinking we're primarily an equipment forum..might be interesting info (even if not all that useful) to see which speed training system produces the most gains.

I love it. I can fill in what I know for folks are using and we can come up with an average score some some way to get a team score since we have different numbers of folks on each one.

[GolfSpy MPR]

Long time since checking in, but Kirke and I both finished our first Stack programs last week and had our Progress check sessions today. Here's mine:

So I've picked up 12mph with the driver so far. Here's Kirke's check-in:

He's gained 3mph so far.

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

9 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Long time since checking in, but Kirke and I both finished our first Stack programs last week and had our Progress check sessions today. Here's mine:

So I've picked up 12mph with the driver so far. Here's Kirke's check-in:

He's gained 3mph so far.

wow, way to go! thats very impressive!

[GolfSpy BOS]

29 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Long time since checking in, but Kirke and I both finished our first Stack programs last week and had our Progress check sessions today. Here's mine:

So I've picked up 12mph with the driver so far. Here's Kirke's check-in:

He's gained 3mph so far.

Wow! Correct me if I’m wrong, but you had done SuperSpeed before right? How does 112 compare to your max with that? 
 

That’s a seriously impressive gain! 

[ejgaudette]

16 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Long time since checking in, but Kirke and I both finished our first Stack programs last week and had our Progress check sessions today. Here's mine:

So I've picked up 12mph with the driver so far. Here's Kirke's check-in:

He's gained 3mph so far.

Yes huge gains for sure. I have marked them down

[GolfSpy MPR]

17 hours ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

Wow! Correct me if I’m wrong, but you had done SuperSpeed before right? How does 112 compare to your max with that? 

I did SuperSpeed-ish: I made my own sticks, downloaded the protocols (a few versions ago). With that, by March of 2021, I was sitting around 130/125/120 with the Green/Blue/Red sticks. So I know I'm capable of decent speed.

As for a comparison: it's difficult. Even when doing SuperSpeed, I never directly measured my driver speed. I'm quite excited: a buddy of mine just built a garage that has high ceilings: this will be the first time in my golfing life that I have the ability to practice driver. So this will allow me to work on transferring this new speed to actual shots, something I never did with SuperSpeed.

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

5 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

I did SuperSpeed-ish: I made my own sticks, downloaded the protocols (a few versions ago). With that, by March of 2021, I was sitting around 130/125/120 with the Green/Blue/Red sticks. So I know I'm capable of decent speed.

As for a comparison: it's difficult. Even when doing SuperSpeed, I never directly measured my driver speed. I'm quite excited: a buddy of mine just built a garage that has high ceilings: this will be the first time in my golfing life that I have the ability to practice driver. So this will allow me to work on transferring this new speed to actual shots, something I never did with SuperSpeed.

You’re going to make us all work harder. With that jump you should be near the top of the standings now. 

[ejgaudette]

2 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

You’re going to make us all work harder. With that jump you should be near the top of the standings now. 

I will do an update to start the new year so we will see then

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

10 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

I will do an update to start the new year so we will see then

Sounds good. I plan to check in Jan 2 weather depending