putter preference

[John Ambrose L2 putters]

If virtually all putters on the market today are between 3" and 4 1/2" from toe to heel, and weigh between 300 and 400 grams, with 3 degree lofts, a 70 degree lie angle, and 34 to 35" in length, and an M.O.I. (Moment Of Inertia) between 3,000 to 7,000 CM2, what makes one better than another? looks? Sound? perhaps who uses it on the tour? or perhaps the designer name on the head?

If it comes down to personal "feel" that could be understandable if the feel is dictated by solid mechanics that produce consistent results. But unfortunately, for most amateurs, this is not the case. This is why most golfers have a garage full of them. They haven't changed the "meant" of the design in over 100 years. It's the same box, just different wrappings. Putter companies can do a lot better with performance then they do, but that would not get you to buy a new one every time the magic of a new putter wears off.

Think about it. This growth change in real putter design and improvements is slowly mimicking what went on when persimmon head drivers were replaced by hollow metal ones. Remember, "Change begins at the end of your comfort zone".

Mygolfspy works hard to give you up to date information and facts. thanks to them and continued success.

[Bobbers]

My putter plays at 32 1/2 inches.  It was fitted for me using the Edel Aiming System which resulted in a totally different sighting/alignment aid.  My two closest golfing buddies use an arc stroke, mine is "straight back/straight through".  We use substantially different putters compared to the Bullseye blades we used once upon a time.

I've been a golfer for approximately 60 years and I can promise you, with reliability, putters today, other than possessing a shaft, are significantly different and, in my opinion, improved compared to what I was using when I started playing the game.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Bobbers
added info

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 hours ago, John Ambrose L2 putters said:

If virtually all putters on the market today are between 3" and 4 1/2" from toe to heel, and weigh between 300 and 400 grams, with 3 degree lofts, a 70 degree lie angle, and 34 to 35" in length, and an M.O.I. (Moment Of Inertia) between 3,000 to 7,000 CM2, what makes one better than another? looks? Sound? perhaps who uses it on the tour? or perhaps the designer name on the head?

If it comes down to personal "feel" that could be understandable if the feel is dictated by solid mechanics that produce consistent results. But unfortunately, for most amateurs, this is not the case. This is why most golfers have a garage full of them. They haven't changed the "meant" of the design in over 100 years. It's the same box, just different wrappings. Putter companies can do a lot better with performance then they do, but that would not get you to buy a new one every time the magic of a new putter wears off.

Think about it. This growth change in real putter design and improvements is slowly mimicking what went on when persimmon head drivers were replaced by hollow metal ones. Remember, "Change begins at the end of your comfort zone".

Mygolfspy works hard to give you up to date information and facts. thanks to them and continued success.

Certainly an interesting take. I would suggest that there has been a good amount of progression in a variety of areas for putters. Sure it could be seen as more subtle, however here are some examples.

Evnroll grooves
Stability Shaft and Strokelab Shaft
Edel fitting system (alignment, mechanics and visuals)
LAB putters and their hole system
SIK Putter Face
Cobra 3D Printed putters
and much more

There have also been banned or controversial changes such as the broomstick putter or arm lock. 

I think there will always a part with putters where looks and preference play a larger part in a golfers perception of how good a putter is (I know the shapes and designs I like or have had more success with). I would suggest that golfers in general feel they should make more putts then the statistics would actual be and this could lead them down a path of having a desire for a new flat stick. Also I am not sure how many have done a proper putter fitting? While many will automatically do a driver fitting. A putter is a easier OTR purchase in general. 

That being said I am curious where you feel they could do a lot better in terms of performance. Not saying at all there isn't room for improvement, but curious where you believe the most glaring weaknesses are?

[null]

Why did you join a forum about golf equipment to tell us all we are idiots?

Like you literally signed up and immediately posted this. 

I'm all for heathy debate but simply stating your opinion as facts (spoiler alert: theyre not) and talking down to anyone who will potentially disagree with you is not a good way to start a conversation

[cnosil]

28 minutes ago, Golfspy_Lukes said:

Why did you join a forum about golf equipment to tell us all we are idiots?

Like you literally signed up and immediately posted this. 

I'm all for heathy debate but simply stating your opinion as facts (spoiler alert: theyre not) and talking down to anyone who will potentially disagree with you is not a good way to start a conversation

Based on username,  I am guessing he will start talking about this:  https://www.l2putters.com/

 

[John Ambrose L2 putters]

First of all, no one is an idiot for trying to improve there putting. But if all golfers are given putters with limited performance standards, then it's more a matter of trying to use a putter that under-performs and when you fail, they say "it's not the bow, it's the archer".. 

Golfspy is a great way to learn and gain insight  into golf, and I appreciate their work. Looking deeper into the best game ever made, is meant to be enlightening, not negative.

With that said, I humbly withdraw from the group and wish you all the best.

[Bobbers]

17 minutes ago, John Ambrose L2 putters said:

First of all, no one is an idiot for trying to improve there putting. But if all golfers are given putters with limited performance standards, then it's more a matter of trying to use a putter that under-performs and when you fail, they say "it's not the bow, it's the archer".. 

Golfspy is a great way to learn and gain insight  into golf, and I appreciate their work. Looking deeper into the best game ever made, is meant to be enlightening, not negative.

With that said, I humbly withdraw from the group and wish you all the best.

You're just quoting your website, JL.  In my opinion it's always most useful when dealing with and trying to influence an informed audience to state  your case, be candid about who you are, and enter discussions knowing that some you win, some you lose, some get rained out.  Trying to paint people into a corner verbally is rarely "successful" in my experience.  Making statements that sound absolute invites people to find the exception.  Having found it they then find it easy to dismiss what might otherwise be legitimate points you might have made. 

I appreciate passion, I'm wary of zealotry.  But that's just me.

[CarlH]

Well, I'm not sure what this was all about.

[Headhammer]

31 minutes ago, CarlH said:

Well, I'm not sure what this was all about.

Just a dude trying to sell a putter.

[CarlH]

20 minutes ago, Headhammer said:

Just a dude trying to sell a putter.

 

Yes, it was tongue in cheek.

[John Ambrose L2 putters]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:31 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Certainly an interesting take. I would suggest that there has been a good amount of progression in a variety of areas for putters. Sure it could be seen as more subtle, however here are some examples.

Evnroll grooves
Stability Shaft and Strokelab Shaft
Edel fitting system (alignment, mechanics and visuals)
LAB putters and their hole system
SIK Putter Face
Cobra 3D Printed putters
and much more

There have also been banned or controversial changes such as the broomstick putter or arm lock. 

I think there will always a part with putters where looks and preference play a larger part in a golfers perception of how good a putter is (I know the shapes and designs I like or have had more success with). I would suggest that golfers in general feel they should make more putts then the statistics would actual be and this could lead them down a path of having a desire for a new flat stick. Also I am not sure how many have done a proper putter fitting? While many will automatically do a driver fitting. A putter is a easier OTR purchase in general. 

That being said I am curious where you feel they could do a lot better in terms of performance. Not saying at all there isn't room for improvement, but curious where you believe the most glaring weaknesses are?

The USGA has some strict requirements that really limits what grooves and various loft faces can really do. The claims versus the actual ball responses are not the same. However, as was discovered with metal drivers, a ring weighted club will perform better because of the increase in M.O.I. (Moment Of Inertia).  The maximum toe to heel size of putter cannot exceed 7" and there is no weight limit. The maximum upright lie angle of a shaft cannot exceed 80 degrees although there is no limit as to how flat a lie angle can be. So with a higher MOI and a more upright lie angle, putter performance as well as stroke performance will greatly improve, it's a physics fact.

  But putter companies still stay in the low MOI range and 69-72 degree lie angle range, (as standard). They claim to make the best putter on the market....until they do a cosmetic change and then make the same claim next year. As for custom putters, unless a golfer has solid mechanics and a well tested motion, making a custom putter to fit an undependable but "comfortable" motion is not always the answer either. A great quote I like is " Change begins at the end of your comfort zone". At least some food for thought.

Putting is almost half of a score, so it should have more attention put on it. As for the pros, they are the best in the world at what they do, and primarily putt on some pretty nice greens. But despite this, there are a lot of them that work hard to get their putters to perform and lesson their dominant hand participation. They'll use left hand low, claw grip, arm anchor ,,broomstick, and still have their hands full when Sunday comes along. What a great game!!!

[GolfSpy_BNG]

On 11/5/2022 at 1:51 PM, John Ambrose L2 putters said:

If virtually all putters on the market today are between 3" and 4 1/2" from toe to heel, and weigh between 300 and 400 grams, with 3 degree lofts, a 70 degree lie angle, and 34 to 35" in length, and an M.O.I. (Moment Of Inertia) between 3,000 to 7,000 CM2, what makes one better than another? looks? Sound? perhaps who uses it on the tour? or perhaps the designer name on the head?

This statement right off the bat is what kills all credibility in my opinion. You literally named many ways putters can differ then ask what makes one better than the other.  Everything you mentioned can make one better for someone than another.  
 

I think you just messed up your ability to peddle your putter here good sir. 

[John Ambrose L2 putters]

You are right. Good luck with all the "different " putters out there my friend. Have a good holiday.

[GolfSpy_BNG]

27 minutes ago, John Ambrose L2 putters said:

You are right. Good luck with all the "different " putters out there my friend. Have a good holiday.

If putters are all the same why do you have 4 putters listed for sale on your website?

[cnosil]

On 11/19/2022 at 6:30 PM, John Ambrose L2 putters said:

 So with a higher MOI and a more upright lie angle, putter performance as well as stroke performance will greatly improve, it's a physics fact.

 

Was reading through your site and while you talk about a more upright lie angle,  your more traditional designs are only 73* and don't come close to the 80* limitation; only your face on model is 79*.    Your side talks about a pendulum stroke which generally isn't possible unless you have a putter with a 90* lie angle.   Additionally with how the body works,  the shoulders, arms, and hands can move in a pendulum motion,  the lie angle with cause the putter to move in an arc on an inclined plane.  

We also talk about high MOI putters and more forgiveness;  what exactly does that mean?  High MOI is about reducing the tendency to rotate.  The rotation can occur when the putter is moving through the stroke or when the ball impacts off center.  I am assuming that your forgiveness is really more about off center strikes?  

How do you manage vision with your putters?  Not all players see the line correctly with their eyes over the ball and as a result they push and pull putts.   This could cause me to pull the putter inside or outside the line and with the high MOI the player may end up pushing or pulling putts.

I have also seen studies that indicate that heavy putters have a negative effect on putting performance.   

so what exactly is the physics fact that you talk about?   

[GolfSpy_APH]

My question is more around weight. 

We have seen benefits from the stability shaft and such as there is droop with some of the heavier heads with steal shafts.

I think it's one of the great benefits of why LAB offers the upcharge shaft on their models. It's quite unique to have a massive putter head and it's a trend that comes around every so often. Personally it would need to be counterbalanced a good but for me to have it work and I would want a shaft that has more rigid feel.