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Gary626

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I have read many articles stating that Covid and the pandemic have brought a slew of new people into the game. The majority say it is a good thing. I disagree! It seems that every round our group plays, we get behind the threesome or foursome that has seemingly never played golf before.  Breakfast balls on #1 are expected, but you don't get two or three on each tee box! Please leave your favorite tee at home, I truthfully had a group putt out on a par three and then drive back to our tee box and ask for his tee. Then there is the group that thinks the fairway is a driving range. They don't like the outcome of their shot, just drop another and try again. We have had guys if front of us on a saturday teaching their girlfriends how to swing a golf club, and showing no concern for holding up the entire golf course. I was once the newbie, friends who had played for years took me to the driving range. I then played nothing but scrambles for months. disrupting other peoples games was not tolerated. We have gone from sub 4 hour rounds to if you get done in 5 it's a good day. Is it just me?

 

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I happen to be in the court of more players to the game is a good thing.  Of course, the etiquette issues you describe above are frustrating during the round, but I think there are ways that can be addressed without excluding new golfers to this great game.  We were all beginner golfers at some point, and I think we would all be lying to ourselves if we said we have NEVER held up the group behind us at some point in our golfing history...   I believe that most players are cognizant to the pace of play... but there are some that aren't.  I have always found that having a friendly conversation about pace of play, or asking politely to play through the slower players have worked well for me.  

I experienced a similar "rush to the course" thing happen when Tiger burst onto the scene back in the mid 90's.  Prior to that, I was playing 3.5 hour rounds anywhere in town, but it quickly became nearly impossible to "walk on" to a golf course anywhere in my city - or play in less than 5 hours... the courses were packed with all the new golfers that he motivated to pick up the game. 

I have found that helping to educate new golfers on the proper etiquette when on the course goes a lot farther than being frustrated and not saying anything.  Good marshals at the course can help with that as well - but they can't be everywhere at once.   But that is just me... others may have different opinions.  

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I was a member at a private course in Upstate New York.  They were planning a major clubhouse expansion and wanted new members to help finance it.  With new members came unintended outcome:  longer round times.  The average round increased 15-20 minutes.  That winter the Board decided that ALL members were required to take a course etiquette class before they would be allowed to play in the Spring.  The class included things like how to fix a ball mark, how to enter and rake a trap.  Embedded throughout the presentation however were speed of play elements.  They included keep up with the group in front of you, where to position your cart when approaching a green (so you can quickly clear it for the next group), somethings as simple as filling in your score at the next tee.  With everyone "trained", not surprisingly come Spring the average round times were back to acceptable round times.

The problem is more often not knowing what to do and why to do it.  In a perfect world golf could be like getting a license to drive a car.  Before you can go to the course or buy clubs you need to pass your "learners" permit that allows you to play with a "licensed" group.  Only after passing your "driver's" test to demonstrate your skills and knowledge are you are allowed to golf on your own.   Taking it one step further, if rangers caught you doing something inappropriate and you were warned, they could pull your golf card.  In order to play again, you'd need to pass your "drivers" test again.  One can only dream.

Until that utopia, I think it's up to friends helping their new golfing friends some basic etiquette and encouraging it be followed.  

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It's the same thing that happened in 1997-1998. We have 2 choices we can post on a forum complaining about them or we can help them just like I am sure we were all helped when we started.

My club, which is private, has implemented a new "onboarding" policy for new and existing members. You wouldn't think it would be necessary at a private club however it is. 

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3 hours ago, Golf2Much said:

  In a perfect world golf could be like getting a license to drive a car.  Before you can go to the course or buy clubs you need to pass your "learners" permit that allows you to play with a "licensed" group.  Only after passing your "driver's" test to demonstrate your skills and knowledge are you are allowed to golf on your own.   Taking it one step further, if rangers caught you doing something inappropriate and you were warned, they could pull your golf card.  In order to play again, you'd need to pass your "drivers" test again.  One can only dream.

Until that utopia, I think it's up to friends helping their new golfing friends some basic etiquette and encouraging it be followed.  

Funny that you post this because that is exactly what they do in Europe. You have to pass a proficiency test and have an established handicap below a certain number. You get a card that you must show to get on a course.  See someone got it figured out! 

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5 hours ago, Gary626 said:

I have read many articles stating that Covid and the pandemic have brought a slew of new people into the game. The majority say it is a good thing. I disagree! It seems that every round our group plays, we get behind the threesome or foursome that has seemingly never played golf before.  Breakfast balls on #1 are expected, but you don't get two or three on each tee box! Please leave your favorite tee at home, I truthfully had a group putt out on a par three and then drive back to our tee box and ask for his tee. Then there is the group that thinks the fairway is a driving range. They don't like the outcome of their shot, just drop another and try again. We have had guys if front of us on a saturday teaching their girlfriends how to swing a golf club, and showing no concern for holding up the entire golf course. I was once the newbie, friends who had played for years took me to the driving range. I then played nothing but scrambles for months. disrupting other peoples games was not tolerated. We have gone from sub 4 hour rounds to if you get done in 5 it's a good day. Is it just me?

 

Maybe this is a good reason for the Swiss system? Or for much of europe where you need an official handicap to play the main courses. There are non handicap courses, but they are par 3 or short courses. 

Overall it is good for golf, it is unfortunate you have been put in those situations and as much as it is on those golfers to know better it is also on the courses and their staff to ensure that pace of play is acceptable. 

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the pace of play issue is the biggest for me, but I've seen just as many seasoned golfers that don't give a $h!! as newer golfers that were never shown and don't understand. Just on Friday when I made the turn I got stuck behind a 4-some of older guys moseying at their own pace, not letting anyone go thorugh. Also in front of me was a twosome about my age. They also did not let me go through, or ask me to join them. Finally I skipped 14, and didn't have to wait until I got to the 18th tee, where a 5-some was already chipping up on a driveable par 4. While I find the 2-some annoying, the 4-some is downright unacceptable. Not letting 3 players go through when there were 4 holes open in front of you.

It would be great to have everyone understand the basic etiquette before heading to the course, but you can't depend on that. However there are things I think courses can do to help this.

-Starters & Rangers that are actually good at their job and professional. Checking tee times, recommending tees, and enforcing speed/moving groups up that fall out of position on busy days

-Turning away walk ups. Too many courses just take the money and tell people to get in line when they show up. You want to play? We can add you to the tee sheet in 45 minutes, as that's the next opening. But you're not going to jump the people who booked in advance.

-Enforcing tee times. and I have a buddy who notoriously does this. An 8AM tee time is when you are to be standing on the 1st tee, not pulling into the parking lot. If you're not on the first tee at that time, you lose your spot and have to wait for the next opening. And by that same token, the 9AM tee time doesn't get to go at 8:30 just because they are all there and ready.

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At my club, we get a lot of the entitled 5 and 6 somes - evidently playing the equivalent of the Masters in their own head... so yeah... even seasoned golfers live in thier own world.  I'm with you DoP... I usually skip around and find an opening when I get behind those groups.

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44 minutes ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

At my club, we get a lot of the entitled 5 and 6 somes - evidently playing the equivalent of the Masters in their own head... so yeah... even seasoned golfers live in thier own world.  I'm with you DoP... I usually skip around and find an opening when I get behind those groups.

I have them too. 12 to 16 of them all get together on the first tee, three to four times a week at 12:00. They drop balls and somehow use this to determine teams. They then split into teams and head out in groups of 4, 5 or 6. One team goes back to17, one to 18 and another to #1. So, this way they all get to follow each other around the course at a snail's pace. The problem is I'm usually the single putting out on 16 and they pull up right in front of me and start teeing off. Entitled long time members that are all retired. If your retired, why do you have to tee off at lunch time when people are trying to sneak in a quick 9? Granted my course is never crowded so I can skip holes and go back later. But when you have two holes to go, show some dam consideration. A few times I saw them on the 1st tee when I got there and went into the Pro shop and said I'm going off the back first. I want to get done today. Believe it or not I would still get stuck behind them eventually. God forbit you try to play through and break up their groups. 

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Fortunately, at my course the members get first dibs on tee times. Come after 11:00 and who knows how it goes. We still have slow players but they know the game enough to not be too terrible. However, an extra 20-30 seconds a swing of deliberate setup does take its toll. Maybe join a club that has stricter rules and more favorable options for players and tee times?

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Heres a Novel idea, What about a card that you scan at the tee box on each hole.. Like a keycard and reader, each group has 1 card, if anyone group gets to far behind course marshal addresses it.. Not to come off like the speed police, but it would allow slow play to be addressed. If one group starts lagging behind and has not let the group behind play through it'll show up when each punch in at the next hole.. Granted people will be pissed but at least the course will be able to keep it's core players happy with sub 5.5 hour rounds.. Just a thought.. 

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17 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

-Starters & Rangers that are actually good at their job and professional. Checking tee times, recommending tees, and enforcing speed/moving groups up that fall out of position on busy days

To me, this is key. At many of the courses I play, I almost never see a ranger and the starter (if there is one) never really lays out the pace of play expectations. I have had a couple experiences that I think courses should do more of:

1) Warren Course at Notre Dame - the starter was awesome. He recommended tees for us (which were forward from what we were tempted to play based on length) and explained their pace of play expectations in a manner that was friendly and stern at the same time.

2) A muni in Jefferson City, MO - I have no idea if they still do this, but in the 90's, they had a time clock by the club house (like you would see for workers in a factory). You stamped your card at the start, the turn, and the end. A ranger checked the time card and if you were outside their requirements it was possible you would be asked not to return. The course was jammed on Saturdays, but everyone knew they had to keep time, so it was always a nice pace. @Reesedw's post sounds like a more modern take on this type of system.

Question for @GolfSpy_APH: are there ever any pace of play issues with the system in place? Without decent rangers, I could imagine there are still people like the selfish old farts I see that just don't care (yes, I'm generalizing, I know they are not the only problem).

 

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1 minute ago, MaxEntropy said:

To me, this is key. At many of the courses I play, I almost never see a ranger and the starter (if there is one) never really lays out the pace of play expectations. I have had a couple experiences that I think courses should do more of:

1) Warren Course at Notre Dame - the starter was awesome. He recommended tees for us (which were forward from what we were tempted to play based on length) and explained their pace of play expectations in a manner that was friendly and stern at the same time.

2) A muni in Jefferson City, MO - I have no idea if they still do this, but in the 90's, they had a time clock by the club house (like you would see for workers in a factory). You stamped your card at the start, the turn, and the end. A ranger checked the time card and if you were outside their requirements it was possible you would be asked not to return. The course was jammed on Saturdays, but everyone knew they had to keep time, so it was always a nice pace. @Reesedw's post sounds like a more modern take on this type of system.

Question for @GolfSpy_APH: are there ever any pace of play issues with the system in place? Without decent rangers, I could imagine there are still people like the selfish old farts I see that just don't care (yes, I'm generalizing, I know they are not the only problem).

 

I have yet to play a round that has taken longer than 4.5 hours. Most my rounds were lot as a 4 some, but here pace of play seems great Overall and rarely are rounds slow or waiting long times for groups ahead. 

Not to say I haven't had to wait, but that was more in fear of hitting into a group. 

The one marshall I have seen actually was super annoying and driving his cart all over in bad spots causing more delays than helping or on his phone not paying attention. 

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2 hours ago, MaxEntropy said:

To me, this is key. At many of the courses I play, I almost never see a ranger and the starter (if there is one) never really lays out the pace of play expectations. I have had a couple experiences that I think courses should do more of:

1) Warren Course at Notre Dame - the starter was awesome. He recommended tees for us (which were forward from what we were tempted to play based on length) and explained their pace of play expectations in a manner that was friendly and stern at the same time.

2) A muni in Jefferson City, MO - I have no idea if they still do this, but in the 90's, they had a time clock by the club house (like you would see for workers in a factory). You stamped your card at the start, the turn, and the end. A ranger checked the time card and if you were outside their requirements it was possible you would be asked not to return. The course was jammed on Saturdays, but everyone knew they had to keep time, so it was always a nice pace. @Reesedw's post sounds like a more modern take on this type of system.

Question for @GolfSpy_APH: are there ever any pace of play issues with the system in place? Without decent rangers, I could imagine there are still people like the selfish old farts I see that just don't care (yes, I'm generalizing, I know they are not the only problem).

 

I know Wilkshire down off 77 used to do something similar. If you came off 9 in over 2:15, they would be handing you a refund for the back 9 and telling you to leave.

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Marshalls at all courses would be great but most courses don't have the budget. But I have had some bad Marshalls as well. This guy rolls up and tells us to pick up the pace we are two holes behind. With glasses as thick as coke bottles I could tell that he didn't see the group in front of us 100 yards out in the fairway on a par 5. I politely said to him "If you can get that group in front of us to get out of the way we could pick up the pace rather quickly. Have a nice day" He then proceeded to get back in his cart and pull out a pair of binoculars to look ahead. Really.... they were 100 yards out. Then he said just see what you can do to speed up and drove off to confront the group ahead. He did make them pick up and move up a hole. Glad he did his job, but you need to know the root cause of the problem!

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3 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Marshalls at all courses would be great but most courses don't have the budget. But I have had some bad Marshalls as well. This guy rolls up and tells us to pick up the pace we are two holes behind. With glasses as thick as coke bottles I could tell that he didn't see the group in front of us 100 yards out in the fairway on a par 5. I politely said to him "If you can get that group in front of us to get out of the way we could pick up the pace rather quickly. Have a nice day" He then proceeded to get back in his cart and pull out a pair of binoculars to look ahead. Really.... they were 100 yards out. Then he said just see what you can do to speed up and drove off to confront the group ahead. He did make them pick up and move up a hole. Glad he did his job, but you need to know the root cause of the problem!

Most marshals work the course backwards so they know where the slow groups are, rather than roll up behind you.  We only have them on Fri-Sun, and the worst group is the Men's Club which doesn't get harassed.  They dictate pace of play for the most part.  Of course there are a few slow groups throughout the day, but it's mostly newbies; it is a muni.  The rough usually isn't too long, but the lies in the rough are tough... even just off the fairway.  Pace is a lot slower on the front nine; picks up starting on #10, but then slows down again on #14; the Men's Club groups get really slow on the last few holes because they play them like it's the final day of the US Open!!

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3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Not to say I haven't had to wait, but that was more in fear of hitting into a group. 

FINALLY!!! an advantage to my slow swing speed!!!  😉

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1 hour ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Marshalls at all courses would be great but most courses don't have the budget. But I have had some bad Marshalls as well. This guy rolls up and tells us to pick up the pace we are two holes behind. With glasses as thick as coke bottles I could tell that he didn't see the group in front of us 100 yards out in the fairway on a par 5. I politely said to him "If you can get that group in front of us to get out of the way we could pick up the pace rather quickly. Have a nice day" He then proceeded to get back in his cart and pull out a pair of binoculars to look ahead. Really.... they were 100 yards out. Then he said just see what you can do to speed up and drove off to confront the group ahead. He did make them pick up and move up a hole. Glad he did his job, but you need to know the root cause of the problem!

Good marshalls would be important. Too often have I been in this position where I'm the 3rd or 4th group from the slow ones holding it up, and we're the ones getting told to speed up. Cleveland has the metroparks which are all very busy courses. I never see the rangers do anything or say anything to anybody. And they are out there driving past 4 or 5 times a round. The worst was at the most notoriously busy muni in CLE we weren't even done with the 1st hole when a ranger drives up, drops a group off at the 2nd tee, then comes over and tells us we need to speed up. Well first, the course is busy, second you just put a group in front of us, so where are we supposed to go???!!

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Our club up north has a terrible time with slow play on weekends - to the point that my wife and I didn't want to play during those days. The primary reason were guests, many of whom weren't players and they would tee-off at the tips - after all,  the forward tees were for the 'old folks'.  Our condo there is adjacent to the green on #1 with a long pond between the tips and the green. One benefit for me is that on Sunday night I could go to the pond and probably pick up 2 to 3 doz balls, many of them being brand new Pro V1s.

Yes we had a ranger on Friday and Saturday, but he always seemed to be at the other end of the course from the slow groups. Unfortunately I don't have an answer that the club would be interested in implementing. Our club down here, different story; we have a starter who checks you off - you don't jump ahead and you better have the # of people you made the tee time for. Our ranger is constantly circulating around the course and will tell you to move along if you're behind. At an adjacent club here in FL they have GPS charting in the carts which also tells you if you're playing ahead or behind.    

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@tony@CIC I have to agree with you on teeing off on the tips point.   My home course is considered somewhat of a resort course with our share of visitors.  Those new to the course look at the scorecard, see 6035 yards from the white tees and decide to move back to the tips.  The problem is "they don't know what they don't know".  The first tee looks fairly benign.  What they don't see is every hole having OB, water hazards or mangroves.  What they don't see are narrow fairways, punishing rough and small protected greens.  The result is punishing long rounds and a lot of lost golf balls.  I played with a guy two months ago who insisted he play from the tips.  He had to quit after 15 holes because he ran out of the two dozen balls he brought with him.    

 

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16 hours ago, Golf2Much said:

@tony@CIC I have to agree with you on teeing off on the tips point.   My home course is considered somewhat of a resort course with our share of visitors.  Those new to the course look at the scorecard, see 6035 yards from the white tees and decide to move back to the tips.  The problem is "they don't know what they don't know".  The first tee looks fairly benign.  What they don't see is every hole having OB, water hazards or mangroves.  What they don't see are narrow fairways, punishing rough and small protected greens.  The result is punishing long rounds and a lot of lost golf balls.  I played with a guy two months ago who insisted he play from the tips.  He had to quit after 15 holes because he ran out of the two dozen balls he brought with him.    

 

I've played there! I do remember a par 3 (?) over the mangroves that didn't seem that long but ate 3 of my balls. None in our foursome of seasoned golfers made it to the green 

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:taylormade-small:SIM 2 D Max with Fujikura Air Speeder Shaft 

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:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

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Golf Balls: Vice Pro Plus 

2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

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7 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

I've played there! I do remember a par 3 (?) over the mangroves that didn't seem that long but ate 3 of my balls. None in our foursome of seasoned golfers made it to the green 

Yeah, that's the 8th hole.  It can be intimidating.  Depending on the height of the mangroves, you can only see about the back third of the green from the tee box.  It's only about 130-150 yard shot, but with mangroves, sand trap, a narrow green sloped front to back and trap along the back of the green, it can be a challenge.  

Welcome to my world.  I play it three to four times a week.  With the shifting winds, it plays differently almost every day.  

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Callaway Epic 3 wood, Project X Evenflow Green 45 gram senior shaft  
Callaway GBB Epic Heavenwood, with a Mitsubishi Diamana 50 gram senior shaft
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Ping G 26 degree hybrid, stock Alta 65 gram senior shaft
Callaway Paradym X irons, 7-AW with Aldila Ascent Blue 50 graphite shafts
Edison wedges:  50, 55 and 60 degree, KBS Tour Graphite A flex shafts
Putters:  L.A.B. Direct Force 2.1 putter, 34.5" long, 67 degrees lie
 
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I play at a private club. No starter, no Marshall. But we do have 6 guys hanging in the pro shop all day though, talking amongst themselves.  They barely fit behind the counter there are so many of them.  They do nothing to manage on course activity.  They live in fear of the Entitled members, especially the BOD members.
 

Our pace of play is decent but the issue we have is entitlement. 5somes and even 6somes sometimes. On a recent Saturday morning, with the tee sheet filled from 7 a.m. to mid afternoon, we were scheduled to play behind some notorious entitled members.  All current or former BOD.  They had 2 tee times as 3somes.   They  teed off on #1 as 2 threesomes.  They joined up on #2 as a 6some.  My buddy called the pro shop and on the 4th tee they split into a single and a 5 some after the Asst Pro came out.  Apparently the single wasn’t in the money game.  So much for showing consideration for your fellow members.  
 

Our busiest times are weekends early a.m. through 1 p.m.  I think the policy and practice should be to limit to 4 all tee times prior to mid afternoon. Golf is hard enough, we shouldn’t be adding stress by getting players frustrated over things they can’t control.

 

I play with some older guys during the week early a.m. and make sure we aren’t holding anyone up.  I walk, they all play in carts.  If we do have anyone pressing us, I let them know we are letting the group behind us through on the next hole. There’s never an issue with us letting the next group through.   We stand aside a few time a month.  Weekends, though I play with a group that keeps pace so no issues there. 

 

I did play a course in SoCal years ago near Laguna Nigel that made every Saturday group a 6some due to demand at the club.  I was a guest that day along with my wife so we couldn’t just leave. We played the longest round ever..9 hours.  Tee time was 10 a.m. Finished at 7 p.m.  Never saw a Marshall, waited sometimes 20 minutes on par 3 holes.  Had to wait on EVERY shot except putts.  It was the most uncomfortable and unsatisfying round ever.

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20 hours ago, Kenny B said:

When I play with others, I usually get to hit first!  😂

I resemble that remark Kenny!!  

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18 hours ago, Golf2Much said:

@tony@CIC I have to agree with you on teeing off on the tips point.   My home course is considered somewhat of a resort course with our share of visitors.  Those new to the course look at the scorecard, see 6035 yards from the white tees and decide to move back to the tips.  The problem is "they don't know what they don't know".  The first tee looks fairly benign.  What they don't see is every hole having OB, water hazards or mangroves.  What they don't see are narrow fairways, punishing rough and small protected greens.  The result is punishing long rounds and a lot of lost golf balls.  I played with a guy two months ago who insisted he play from the tips.  He had to quit after 15 holes because he ran out of the two dozen balls he brought with him.    

 

What is the slope of the tips?

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@Muckinfiddle the par 70 blue tees play 6531 yards with a rating of 71.1 and slope of 131.

Edited by Golf2Much
Ping G430 Max driver 10.5 degrees with an Alta Quick45 gram senior shaft
Callaway Epic 3 wood, Project X Evenflow Green 45 gram senior shaft  
Callaway GBB Epic Heavenwood, with a Mitsubishi Diamana 50 gram senior shaft
Ping G 20.5 degree 7 wood, with a stock Alta 65 gram senior shaft
Ping G 26 degree hybrid, stock Alta 65 gram senior shaft
Callaway Paradym X irons, 7-AW with Aldila Ascent Blue 50 graphite shafts
Edison wedges:  50, 55 and 60 degree, KBS Tour Graphite A flex shafts
Putters:  L.A.B. Direct Force 2.1 putter, 34.5" long, 67 degrees lie
 
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4 minutes ago, Golf2Much said:

@Muckinfiddle the par 70 blue tees play 6531 yards with a rating of 71.1 and slope of 131.

I can see where the slope isn't scary enough to keep the dreamers away.

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2 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

I can see where the slope isn't scary enough to keep the dreamers away.

If they are like the people that play here, they don't have a clue what Slope even means.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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