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DKirk

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2 hours ago, CarlH said:

Bill Clinton had the same issue with fudging his game.  If you're a high profile individual and you cheat, it doesn't go unnoticed!  On similar note, didn't Justin Thomas call out MJ as a cheat?

They all cheated.  Check out the book, "First off the Tee" by Don Van Natta, Jr.  Presidential hackers, duffers and cheaters from Taft to Bush(s).  He needs to update it to include Obama and Trump.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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5 hours ago, CarlH said:

Bill Clinton had the same issue with fudging his game.

 

... I was always amused at video of Clinton hitting a tee shot then immediately reaching into his pocket then slowly, removing it without a ball. I always felt like someone in his SS detail was saying to him "You are on camera Mr President, DON'T pull out your normal mulligan!" 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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On 11/9/2022 at 12:32 PM, DKirk said:

Why is a divot (in the fairway) not considered a fair relief by the embedded ball rule? Divots not in the fairway...I understand. But, particularly in tournament play.....when there are multiple players placing shots in a similar place....and the fact that the divot is below the surface of the fairway and in many cases filled with sand that the ball then sinks or "embeds" into. I really wish this rule could be addressed and allowed as relief....embedded ball rule...

Bernhard Langer weighs in: 

“I think we should be dropping out of divots,” Langer told GOLF.com. “Divots are made by us.” ... 

Us, as in us humans. Why, Langer contends, should one golfer suffer for turf trauma left behind by another golfer?

“Sometimes you hit a beautiful tee shot down the middle of the fairway and you’re in a sand-filled divot, and it’s like hitting out of fairway bunker,” he said. “I don’t think that’s fair. If you had a good shot, you should have a lie on grass.”

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33 minutes ago, LICC said:

Bernhard Langer weighs in: 

When given a choice between the opinion of a player and the opinion of people who have made their careers studying the Rules and their impact and enforcement, the player isn't going to be a very persuasive voice to me.  Did anyone ask old Bernie if he could write an effective enforceable rule that stops short of allowing improved lies in the fairway all the time? 

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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24 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

When given a choice between the opinion of a player and the opinion of people who have made their careers studying the Rules and their impact and enforcement, the player isn't going to be a very persuasive voice to me.  Did anyone ask old Bernie if he could write an effective enforceable rule that stops short of allowing improved lies in the fairway all the time? 

I don’t think this particular issue needs years of in depth study to understand. Langer knows what divots are. The rule could be easily written an be clear and enforceable. 

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Nothing is golf is fair. One hits a tree and it kicks in the fairway and someone else hits it and it kicks back into the trees and is lost.

one hits the flagstick and gets a lucky shot where it goes in or stays close to the hole and someone else it ricochets away and ends up in a bad position.

Good shots aren’t guaranteed good results. Also life isn’t fair. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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56 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nothing is golf is fair. One hits a tree and it kicks in the fairway and someone else hits it and it kicks back into the trees and is lost.

one hits the flagstick and gets a lucky shot where it goes in or stays close to the hole and someone else it ricochets away and ends up in a bad position.

Good shots aren’t guaranteed good results. Also life isn’t fair. 

Then remove the rules giving free relief for abnormal conditions, ground under repair, casual water, immovable man-made objects, etc.

Edited by LICC
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  • 2 weeks later...

Is golf a GAME to be enjoyed or a slog to get through worrying about whether the bad bounces even out with the good ones. I guarantee you that that balance is never achieved. They can talk all they want about how equipment has made the game easier when we all know golf just has to many BAD, BAD things that can happen.

If you are going to play for money, respect the rules and demand it of everyone else. I have never been around a group of 3 or more golfers where someone didn't fudge their handicap. It's human nature. I laugh at all the articles extolling the virtues of a game where players call penalties on themselves. It has not been my experience in large groups that everyone abides by that BS. I took up golf on a Marine base. The men's club was largely retired dudes who had handicaps that didn't ring true during tournament play. By a lot. I stopped playing with that group right away and only came back when the Commanding General of the base played one tournament and then designated himself the handicap chairmen. Played for a year. The club lost half it's members as the old guys were held to a standard that was fair and equitable. Of course, the General moved on and the club went back to mediocre handicap checks, and balance went out of the system.

But if you are playing for fun, do whatever it takes to make the game enjoyable. The group I play with don't keep handicaps, don't play for money, and don't worry about sand in divots or mud on the ball. You can play those shots or just fix the problem. Whatever floats your boat that day and no judgement. We don't sit around after play and brag about our 73. Or whatever. I understand at the elite amateur level and certainly the pros someone has to codify a set of rules. Even if they don't make sense and then celebrate the worn-out excuse that it is "rub of the green". Whoever came up with that saying should be celebrated as the best wordsmith in golf history. Look, I am all for people in this group. It's fun watching people who know what they are doing playing to a higher standard. Just don't expect everyone to do that.

The rule makers understood that what happened to Fowler when he took his drop and then the ball rolled back into the same hazard that extra penalty strokes are ludicrous for that situation. Just changed the rule. I don't understand why they did it unless the rule as previously written was unfair, which should be the excuse for a few more logical changes. Unless of course, your desire is to keep the game artificially hard.

So sand divots. This isn't rub of the green because the first player out was not faced with this situation. Not faced with a 150 player competition where everyone hits into the same area. The threat goes up the later you play. See Payne Stewart at the US Open. 

Why does a ball that rolls in a hazard only suffer a stroke penalty when out of bounds require stroke and distance? It's artificial. It doesn't make sense unless you really believe that the history of the game requires we follow archaic rules made up by fallible humans and used by course architects to artificially add problems instead of actually designing the course to play hard and fair. I once wrote a letter to the USGA asking why an out of bounds behind the green has a greater penalty than a lake behind the green when both situations are hidden behind the green. The response, and I kid you not, was this "you cannot establish where the ball went out of bounds." Well since you can't see behind the green, technically, you can't precisely pinpoint where the ball went in the water either. Yet in one situation you are allowed to make a reasonable decision and in the other it is stroke and distance. I received no response to the logic of this reply. Because I mean DUH! There is absolutely no logic to out of bounds. C'mon man! Before you say anything, I am not adverse if it went the other way, stroke and distance for everything. Fair is fair. Let's make 6 hour rounds fun again!

In the early days when there were few rules, there was no rub of the green, because the whole playing field was a sheep pasture, and a bad lie was expected. The people playing 300 years ago did not envision the groomed playing surfaces expected of today's golf courses. Rules made then and others added since pertain to the time the rules were made, but not now. 

Everyone talks about growing the game, and then make it too hard for people to enjoy themselves. In today's age, there are lots of fun things to do without wasting 3.5 to 6 hours on a golf course playing a game that is hard enough without adding in illogical rules. Not to mention the expense. 

 

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

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7 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

But if you are playing for fun, do whatever it takes to make the game enjoyable. The group I play with don't keep handicaps, don't play for money, and don't worry about sand in divots or mud on the ball. You can play those shots or just fix the problem. Whatever floats your boat that day and no judgement. We don't sit around after play and brag about our 73. Or whatever. I understand at the elite amateur level and certainly the pros someone has to codify a set of rules. Even if they don't make sense and then celebrate the worn-out excuse that it is "rub of the green". Whoever came up with that saying should be celebrated as the best wordsmith in golf history.

 

... Considering golf was a game designed by sheep herders to pass the time, rub of the green was the original intent. They played out of divots with no sand fill or repair on ground only altered by sheep eating and dedicating/urinating (talk about some bad lies!) Golf was never intended to be "fair" and the original natural lay of the land courses on the British Isles are quite different than the lush, sometimes pristine conditions in the US. Over simplified American golfers are very spoiled. 

... That said, I am with you for any player that wants to make their own rules or abide by none at all. As long as they keep pace and respect the course replacing/repairing divots and ball marks and don't drive their carts (another spoiled US oddity) where they don't belong, so what anyone else does is really none of anyones business other than maybe their friends. Considering sheep herding was an occupation when many where outdoors more often than not, todays golf fills a need for urban residents that was never considered with the original rules. Folks need to get out in the fresh air and sunshine, spend time in nature with both animals and plants and sometimes the actually playing the game of golf by the rules is far down the list or not on it at all. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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I know that I will probably get some flack for this, but I think that the only golfers who should ever ride in power carts are those who are disabled, have a serious (and I don’t mean “fake serious”) disability or are recovering from an injury or surgery that leaves the golfer temporarily limited in mobility. I am nearly 74 years old, and other than the two occasions when I was recovering from surgeries and severe mobility issues, I always walk and either carry my bag or use a non-powered push cart, regardless of how hot (up to at least 105* F) or cold (down to well below freezing). I know and play golf with guys as old as mid-late 80s who do the same. After all, golf is known as “a good walk spoiled”.

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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4 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I know that I will probably get some flack for this, but I think that the only golfers who should ever ride in power carts are those who are disabled, have a serious (and I don’t mean “fake serious”) disability or are recovering from an injury or surgery that leaves the golfer temporarily limited in mobility. I am nearly 74 years old, and other than the two occasions when I was recovering from surgeries and severe mobility issues, I always walk and either carry my bag or use a non-powered push cart, regardless of how hot (up to at least 105* F) or cold (down to well below freezing). I know and play golf with guys as old as mid-late 80s who do the same. After all, golf is known as “a good walk spoiled”.

 

... I am right there with you, but there are just so many exceptions other than injury/disability. I how found in the glaringly strong summer Phoenix sun, I am risking heat stroke attempting to walk once it gets to 100+. Then there are also many mountain courses that are quite literally impossible to walk, or at least in under 6 hours for an in shape zealot. Then of course there are the courses with insanely long walks from green to the next tee box. Probably one or two reasons I missed but whenever possible I am also walking. My 80 yr old playing pard just bought my old MGI Quad and it has made walking more enjoyable than using his push cart, but I have never seen him take a cart. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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Sam, I understand the need to avoid heat stroke, and I have been close a few times. My solution is to drink a lot of Biolyte “IV in a bottle”, before going to the course, at the course before teeing off and during my round (I carry two pre-frozen bottles or thermoses full in my carry bag, even though it adds a couple of extra pounds to my load).

Last week, on my winter golf tour, we played one of those courses with lots of steep inclines and long distances between holes, yet more than 85% of the 116 player field still walked, and we have a good percentage on the tour who are age 60 or above (oldest is age 94 or just turned 95 — he rode in a motorized cart). It did make for a long round for everyone and some really tired golfers (including me!) at the end of the round, but we walked.

BTW, I am not a total “martyr for the cause” when it comes to walking the course. I am actually not playing on that winter tour tomorrow because it has been raining heavily since last night and temperatures are supposed to plummet overnight tonight. Tomorrow’s weather forecast calls for temperatures in the 30s with wind chills in the low 20s. The course is right on the Atlantic Ocean, and it is quite spread out (but pretty flat, being on the ocean). However, weather forecasts are not my main reason for skipping this event. I have a CT Scan scheduled for tomorrow, and tried to get it rescheduled but couldn’t get a new appointment until the second week of January, and my appointment with the doctor who ordered that test is in mid December. I was actually somewhat relieved when I was told that no appointments were available for me to reschedule that test.

Edited by funkyjudge

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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6 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

BTW, I am not a total “martyr for the cause” when it comes to walking the course.

 

... Never thought you were. 🤟 I am pretty zealous about walking but that boat sailed for many a looooooong time ago because 'Murica likes convenience. As a comedian once said if people could get them to throw food in their mouths at the drive through fast food window they would be thrilled. 🤪

... And you can drink all the fluids you want but when the AZ sun gets above 100* it is just too intense to walk. And once it gets above 100* it usually doesn't get back down to double digits for months and 110-115* is pretty common July - August. So I ride in the summer at a tree lined course with plenty of shade. Growing up in NC and living in Chicago most of my adult life the AZ sun in summer is unlike any sun I have experienced. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Never thought you were. 🤟 I am pretty zealous about walking but that boat sailed for many a looooooong time ago because 'Murica likes convenience. As a comedian once said if people could get them to throw food in their mouths at the drive through fast food window they would be thrilled. 🤪

... And you can drink all the fluids you want but when the AZ sun gets above 100* it is just too intense to walk. And once it gets above 100* it usually doesn't get back down to double digits for months and 110-115* is pretty common July - August. So I ride in the summer at a tree lined course with plenty of shade. Growing up in NC and living in Chicago most of my adult life the AZ sun in summer is unlike any sun I have experienced. 

Yes, I know about playing July and August golf in Phoenix, Tucson, and Las Vegas. I have done it (and several times walked the courses) more times than I can count on both hands and feet. I have family members (younger brothers) in both the Tucson area and in Las Vegas, and a couple of good friends in Phoenix.

DR - Callaway Paradym X, Newton Motion 4-Dot

4W - T.E. Exotics C722, Diamana D+ 82-S

HYB - Paradym X 18*, HZRDUS Smoke Red 80S; Sub 70 949X 21*, same shaft

7W (if played) - Callaway Epic Flash, ACCRA Tour X 80S

Irons - Cobra Forged Tec X (5-GW), KBS TGI 75-R

Wedges - Edison 2.0, 53* and 57* (bent to 58*), KBS TGI 100

Putter - Makefield VS custom, 34", 67* lie, 1.75* loft

Ball - Maxfli Tour-X CG (2023) or Vice Pro Plus (OnCore ELIXR or Maxfli Tour S in winter)

Bags - Vessel

Cart - MotoCaddy M7 Remote (without the remote)

Spoiler

driver / off the tee is no longer a weakness for me!

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On 11/30/2022 at 11:47 AM, funkyjudge said:

I know that I will probably get some flack for this, but I think that the only golfers who should ever ride in power carts are those who are disabled, have a serious (and I don’t mean “fake serious”) disability or are recovering from an injury or surgery that leaves the golfer temporarily limited in mobility. I am nearly 74 years old, and other than the two occasions when I was recovering from surgeries and severe mobility issues, I always walk and either carry my bag or use a non-powered push cart, regardless of how hot (up to at least 105* F) or cold (down to well below freezing). I know and play golf with guys as old as mid-late 80s who do the same. After all, golf is known as “a good walk spoiled”.

I wouldn't give you flack other than this is the same reasoning that keeps people out of the game. Not everyone wants to walk. I LIVE in the Phoenix area and walking the golf course EVERYDAY in 100 plus temperatures is not most peoples cup of tea. There is a reason we siesta down here. Believe me, walking everyday down here would be a good walk spoiled. But you do you. Let the rest of us do "us". It is one think to think it is good for you, quite another to think it is good for everyone else. 

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

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  • 8 months later...

Just had this debate with a group planning a 'competitive' outing along with the topic of footprints in bunkers.

With divots, I've always felt that it's the "rub of the green".  Moreover, giving relief from divots provides an actual advantage if you hit into one.  Let's say we're both side by side in the fairway 100 yards from the hole.  You're in a divot, but since we're playing a municipal course with somewhat sketchy maintenance I'm in a small, bare, depressed spot that isn't marked as ground under repair, but is also not a divot.  Now you have an unfair advantage.  If we're both playing it down, there's no debate.

Similarly (and venturing slightly off topic) some of the group want to provide relief in a bunker if your ball is in an unraked footprint.  Again, this provides an unfair advantage of hitting into such a print.  My moving the ball, you are rewarded with essentially a "pristine" lie in the bunker, which you'd have no expectation of getting if you hit into the bunker and the footprint hadn't been there.  The footprint might have saved you from a fried egg, or from rolling into a more awkward spot toward the edge of the bunker.  Without knowing what "would have been" being rewarded with a perfect lie seems like too much relief.  Additionally, not all footprints are created equal.  Some cause no issues at all.  Finally, it seems uneven to provide relief from a footprint, but not "bad rake jobs", pitch mark from another shot, or other maintenance issues that aren't caused by feet.

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  • 6 months later...

We've all been the unlucky guy who piped a missile down the middle only to find a terrible lie in a huge, poorly filled(if at all) divot. It's certainly frustrating. Playing a casual round I'm 50/50 on rolling it a couple inches or playing it down. I like to play some of them for the practice, but if there's a bunch of water or OB around the green then I'm more likely to improve my lie. I can accept an unlucky break, as I've had plenty of bad shots end up decent due to good luck. If that bad break has the chance to lead to a round killing big number though, then I'll probably roll it out. (God knows, I'm VERY capable of ruining a great drive all by myself, from even the best lie) Or play it down at first and then use a mulligan if I end up in the drink. Again, casual rounds with nothing on the line, and if with friends or family. If I'm playing with people I don't know then 99% of the time I play it down. As for the original post, my first thought leaned more towards "ground under repair" than an embedded ball. Either way, I doubt we'll ever see it change. I enjoyed reading everyone's take on this though. 

Walt

WITB: Taylor Made Sim2 Max Driver, TM Jetspeed 3 wood, TM Rescue 2 17° hybrid, TM Rocketbladez Tour 3-G, Cleveland Tour Action 900 56° and TA 588 60° wedges, and one of 3 putters(whichever one I roll the least crappy that day).

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It's the dumbest rule in the game and should be changed.  Being penalized for a good drive when you have no control of it stopping in a divot, which is technically GUR, is silly.  If your ball rolls onto a sprinkler head or yardage marker you get relief.  The same should apply to fairway divots.  

The USGA and R&A should have spent the time and effort correcting this instead of fixing a distance problem that does not exsist/effect 99% of players.

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

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