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How do I convince my golf buddies it's time to change tee boxes?


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1 minute ago, Mackey said:

This is a sign that my gang ran into on a trip to Florida.   The starter simply ask the handicap of the worst player in the group and told you which box they expected you to play.  What we discussed that night was just like your group.  We are of similar ages to your group.  The best point made was that when a designer puts together the course it will have long and short par 4s and the par threes should be mixed short and long.  What we finally agreed was that for as long as we have played together the longest hitters tend to score best because they hit far more short irons.  We realized that the designers of the course want us to hit short irons on the designed short holes and longer irons or woods on the longer holes.  We didn't want parity and we did want competitive rounds for all of us.  We now look at the yardages hole by hole and you play the box where you can drive a good drive to an 8 iron or less on the short par 4s and we also look at the par 3 yardages we don't want some guys hitting a 7 iron and others hitting a 3 wood.  We just mix the tee boxes based on completive yardages.  We used one of the guys Arrcos at the range and  figured out everyone's average stock 7 iron yardage and driver.  We determined that short par 4 tee boxes should be no more than driver, 7 iron on average. 

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Driver: Titleist TSR 3 10* Accra Tour Z TZ6 55 M3 pure 

Fairways: Callaway Rouge 15*  Accra FX 2.0-100F M3 pure  

Hybrid: Callaway Maverick 4&5 Hybrids Accra FX 2.0-100H60 M3 pure  

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Chipper: Cleveland Smart Sole C 46*  Great for just off the greens in the rough 

Putter: Positive Putter's custom P2 (think Edel putter meets Heavy Putter)

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This simple calculation has stood the test of time and applies to all skill levels.  --Take you true 5 iron distance and multiply by 36. That's your optimum 18 hole yardage.  ie. your 5 iron is 160 x 36 = 5700-5800 yds.  PGA Pro=. 5 iron 210x36= 7500 yds.  Give it a try.  

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6 hours ago, WFWP91 said:

There is good data to support tee box selection based on launch monitor data, golf course data, and handicap/skill. Unfortunately, ego, or more accurately male ego, creates faulty decision-making.

https://www.longleafteesystem.com/

Longleaf Tee System (2).png

https://shotscope.com/us/golf-improvement/

Distribution-of-Driving-Distances-1536x931.jpg

Driver-performance-average-by-handicap-P-Avg-768x570.jpg

In my opinion that is waaaay too long of distances for most people. I hit the ball between 250-275 and there is no chance I play from 6600+ and have fun.

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2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Insert sarcasm: payoff the grounds crew to set your tees way way back for a couple rounds so it's difficult to even reach a fairway 😉

Yea then they have to hear it from everyone else.. I know you are being facetious but that would be the uproar

52 minutes ago, vandyland said:

In my opinion that is waaaay too long of distances for most people. I hit the ball between 250-275 and there is no chance I play from 6600+ and have fun.

6600 isn't so bad with that distance depending on the slope.

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Hate yourself, not the game...

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9 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

Had they not stuck "Ladies" and "Seniors" labels on the tees and recommended tee boxes as per driving distance capabilities we would have less problems. Tee boxes have nothing to do with gender or age.

However, people will be the same in the fact that they don't want to admit or believe they can't hit the ball as far as they think or feel embarrassment moving forward.

Actually the USGA guide line chart I saw says nothing about age or handicap. it just deals with driver distance. Now I will admit when I turned 50 I did not move up still played the tips and I did not want to admit it but it was beginning to be a strugle. A young pro friend of mine that I had mentored and helped pass his PAT test for his card talked to me on that. He was correct and I put the man card away and moved up. When I turned 60 which is the guide lines here I did not hesitate to go to the Gold tees. After my injury and hurting myself several times chasing distance I decided to move up age be dammed. I had the attitude if anyone did not like it they could kiss my you know what. Like I said we have a tight knit bunch of members and everyone knows my plight and the fact I am lucky to be walking much less playing golf and have no problem.

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Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label --- PW  Vokey SM-4 51* stock shaft--- SW Vokey SM 5 L grind 58* stock shaft--- Putter -- Rusty Scotty Santa Fe fluted Bulls Eye shaft---. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mackey said:

 

IMG_0552.jpg

A couple of courses here in this Tourist and Retirement Mecca tried that but off of handicap. It did not work out and play suffered. The problem at most courses down here is the arrogant tourist golfers blow into town with their tour van look and will try to play the furtherst tees back. LOL If you are in the resturants at night and listen to them talking they will say like " That ( insert name of course) really kicked our butts today from the tips I shot like 110 and Joe shot 115" I am like what fun can that be??? I know a bunch of guys that are rangers and they are told to "somewhat keep play moving but do not piss off the tourists"

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Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label --- PW  Vokey SM-4 51* stock shaft--- SW Vokey SM 5 L grind 58* stock shaft--- Putter -- Rusty Scotty Santa Fe fluted Bulls Eye shaft---. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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Consider working with course owner to set a hybrid course. Red tees for par 4’s over 350 yards and par 5’s over 440 yards. As well as par 3’s over 150-160 yards. 

Titleist TSR 11 degree, Ascent R1 44.5”

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3 hours ago, vandyland said:

In my opinion that is waaaay too long of distances for most people. I hit the ball between 250-275 and there is no chance I play from 6600+ and have fun.

 

... While guidelines are good at ... well ... being guidelines, common sense should always prevail. I'll be 70 in a few months and hit my 5 iron 185 so 6600 is a good max number for me as a guideline. That said, it depends on what course I am playing. My home course is 6403 from the silver (mens) tees. Tips at 7089 are too long and Sr's at 5952 are too short. But there are several holes that hide the courses length with 2 par 4's at 277 and 294, and a par 3 at 115 (very difficult hole). These short holes allow for a 439, 430 and 426 finishing hole that all play uphill off the tee so very little roll. 

... When the day comes that I can no longer reach these holes with a 3 or 4 hybrid, I will move up but only on these longer holes. Yet I play with golfers that have about a .01% chance of reaching those greens. I play with an 80 yr old pard and have convinced him to move up on these holes to the red tees and a little reluctant at first he thanks me now as his round is much more enjoyable and he has a chance to shoot his age. 82 has been his best so far but always hoping! 

... I hate to sound like a broken record but to the best of your ability, you should be playing each hole the way it was designed. For more than a few that will mean combo tees. If they are unavailable or playing in leagues that don't allow combo's, move up a tee box. It is just so much more enjoyable playing a round on a course that is just a little too short for you than one that is too long for you. And your ability should be a factor as well. I can hit my 3 hy from 210yds on the green or at least somewhere around the green for an easy chip more often than not. If it is rare to very rare for you to reach from 210yds or be around the green, you are probably not having as much fun if that approach shot was from 175yds. Common sense: "good sense and sound judgment in practical matters" works in life and on the golf course. 

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Driver:     :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 10.5* ... AD-IZ 6SR
Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Hybrids:    :taylormade-small: SIM2 Hybrid 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R hy
Irons:        :cobra-small: 4-9 MIM Tour ... Steelfiber i95R
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 46*/50*/58* LB ... Steelfiber i95R
Putter:      :bobby-grace-1: 6330 LTD Edition ...  33.5"
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour '22

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Whole heartly agree with a blended tee setup, even if you have to make your own, or if you can get your Pro to "bless it" might make it more palitable.

I also think tees (generically) should be handicap related.  Your GHIN takes into account what tees you play and the difficulty of the course.  Most people should not be playing the tips unless they are a single digit.  But a senior guy, who carries a single digit can play forward if desired and get less strokes or just post a better score (maybe) from shorter tees.

It also goes into if there is money on the line and if you are handicapping?  if no money or no hcp, then people should play where they want as long as they keep pace of play.  If the gambling is going, then making sure everyone is playing "fairly"  might mean some guys get to move up at an age or a hcp.

But you are 100% percent right it is ego (especially with red/ladies tees).  Our course changed the layout and the new tees were red and the senior men wouldn't play them.  Our pro moved them slightly and painted them gold as "senior tees".  That is all it took for more guys to play them.

But always a tough conversation.  If no games and not slowing play down, people can play from where they want.  But normally, poorer players playing from farther away play slower!  Looke for the blended solution and call the blended "Senior Tees".

You can also suggest a "American round" as a trial.  You switch tee boxes every hole...Red, White, Blue, - Red, White, Blue.  You get the picture.  Gives guys a different view of the course and might take the stigma out of the red tees.  Nice as a change of pace.

 

Cheers

Tigger

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6 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Insert sarcasm: payoff the grounds crew to set your tees way way back for a couple rounds so it's difficult to even reach a fairway 😉

The 77 year old guy who plays in my winter golf tour foursome almost every week cannot reach very many fairways with his driver. He also uses his driver on all but the shortest par 3 holes (I have never seen him hit an iron on ANY par 3). I am not sure why he carries any irons other than maybe a sand wedge because I hardly ever see one come out of his bag.

 

Driver: Ping G425 Max, 9*, Miyazaki  Kuala Mizu Tour Issue 6S, 44.75" playing length

4-Wood: Titleist TS2, 16.5*, Miyazaki Kuala Mizu Tour Issue 7S, 42.75" playing length

5/7-Wood: Callaway Epic Flash Sub Zero set to 20* loft; Tensei Blue 75-S, 41.5" playing length

Hybrids: Exotics EXS Pro (22*), Mitsubishi Tensei Silver 75S

Irons: Exotics EXS220 5-iron and New Level MODB-1 (6-iron through PW), KBS TGI Tour 80 (stiff) shafts

Wedges: New Hogan Equalizer wedges (48* and 56* + Maltby TSW Forged 52-8, all bent 1* weak

Putter: Evnroll ER2, 34”with Gravity Grip

Ball: Snell MTBx

Spoiler

 

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To be honest, I have been thinking about quitting the winter golf tour after the 2022-23 season (maybe sooner), and I am far from a short hitter among the senior golfers. I am still longer than many of the younger amateurs on this tour, but it is getting to be no fun for me having to lay-up on the longer par 4s and hitting lots of hybrids and more than a few 4-woods and 7-woods for my second shot on some of them. I am scoring at least 10 strokes higher than my handicap at far too many events, and when I’m having a bad round it gets much higher than that. It’s a rare occasion when I shoot a net score around par, and I only shot under par (net) at three events last season, when I was playing better than I have been since my cancer surgery this September.  This is what happens when you play courses from tees that are too long for you and where they are set up with the most difficult pin positions.

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Driver: Ping G425 Max, 9*, Miyazaki  Kuala Mizu Tour Issue 6S, 44.75" playing length

4-Wood: Titleist TS2, 16.5*, Miyazaki Kuala Mizu Tour Issue 7S, 42.75" playing length

5/7-Wood: Callaway Epic Flash Sub Zero set to 20* loft; Tensei Blue 75-S, 41.5" playing length

Hybrids: Exotics EXS Pro (22*), Mitsubishi Tensei Silver 75S

Irons: Exotics EXS220 5-iron and New Level MODB-1 (6-iron through PW), KBS TGI Tour 80 (stiff) shafts

Wedges: New Hogan Equalizer wedges (48* and 56* + Maltby TSW Forged 52-8, all bent 1* weak

Putter: Evnroll ER2, 34”with Gravity Grip

Ball: Snell MTBx

Spoiler

 

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2 hours ago, glenmore5 said:

I remember reading that if you multiply the distance you hit your 5 iron by 36...you get the distance of the tees you should be playing off.

Oh my!  Our Red tees are longer than that!!!  🥴

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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2 hours ago, WiTerp50 said:

Consider working with course owner to set a hybrid course. Red tees for par 4’s over 350 yards and par 5’s over 440 yards. As well as par 3’s over 150-160 yards. 

Our par 5 #5 hole is 498y from the Red tee... and into the prevailing wind!!

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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8 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Our par 5 #5 hole is 498y from the Red tee... and into the prevailing wind!!

 

... Wow, that is looooong from the forward tees. My home course hosts a Phoenix Open qualifier and Boys/Girls State High School Championships every year so here are our par 5's from black/silver/gold/red and 498 is longer than all of the gold tees!

565/515/492/471
519/477/444/401
531/499/466/432
601/534/490/468
 

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Driver:     :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 10.5* ... AD-IZ 6SR
Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Hybrids:    :taylormade-small: SIM2 Hybrid 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R hy
Irons:        :cobra-small: 4-9 MIM Tour ... Steelfiber i95R
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 46*/50*/58* LB ... Steelfiber i95R
Putter:      :bobby-grace-1: 6330 LTD Edition ...  33.5"
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour '22

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39 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Wow, that is looooong from the forward tees. My home course hosts a Phoenix Open qualifier and Boys/Girls State High School Championships every year so here are our par 5's from black/silver/gold/red and 498 is longer than all of the gold tees!

565/515/492/471
519/477/444/401
531/499/466/432
601/534/490/468
 

Yeah, it's one bugger of a hole for me. The Blacks are 591.  I was playing the Blue tees at 548; moved up to the Whites at 536... usually there is less than 10 yards difference where they set the markers (on the same tee box).  Wind is straight into your face out of the SW coming up from the Columbia River gorge, usually 15-25mph.  The worst thing about this hole is that it's supposedly the 5th hardest hole, so playing from the senior tees, I don't even get a stroke!!

I would move up to the Reds on that hole, but that's not really fair to my wife!!

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We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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