How do I convince my golf buddies it's time to change tee boxes?

[BIG STU]

4 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

To be honest, I have been thinking about quitting the winter golf tour after the 2022-23 season (maybe sooner), and I am far from a short hitter among the senior golfers. I am still longer than many of the younger amateurs on this tour, but it is getting to be no fun for me having to lay-up on the longer par 4s and hitting lots of hybrids and more than a few 4-woods and 7-woods for my second shot on some of them. I am scoring at least 10 strokes higher than my handicap at far too many events, and when I’m having a bad round it gets much higher than that. It’s a rare occasion when I shoot a net score around par, and I only shot under par (net) at three events last season, when I was playing better than I have been since my cancer surgery this September.  This is what happens when you play courses from tees that are too long for you and where they are set up with the most difficult pin positions.

Basically that is where I am at after my accident in 2020. I lost so much distance because I can only pull the club back to like 9:00 or so. Pre accident I was long for 62 yoa around 250 255 at sea level. Now days only average like 215 220. I do not play leagues or any comp other than our weekly shootout and the Nine and Dines. And no it is not fun hitting 3 woods and 7 woods into par 4s when you have hit the best drive you can down the middle. Even with all of that I kept my unofficial handicap single digit. But not kidding myself it was all due to my short game. It also got to the point in the Shootout that they never used my drive unless they were in trouble. I relized after a while in the shootouts playing others drives I was ok distance wise playing from where they hit it. I also play a lot of vintage golf for kicks and giggles with the persimmon woods. On those rounds I was playing from our Super Senior ( 70 and older) and even with persimmon woods had better shots into greens. I am in a all different frame of mind playing vintage golf than regular golf. In vintage golf I consider it fun to try to hit like a persimmon 4 wood into a par 4. Regular modern golf it was not so much fun. Back in the summer being a full member I can play as much as I want to. I was doing one of my dew sweeper rounds with the somewhat modern set up in my signature and I tried the green tees for kicks and giggles one morning. Discovered it was fun again and I was pain free. Basically from the gold tees I was pushing it too hard trying to get distance and I would hurt for 2 days afterwards. Was seriously thinking about quitting period. After moving up I discovered regular golf was fun again. I was not straining myself and hurting. Like I said I do not play leagues any stipulated comps or keep a stipulated handicap any more. I also actually shot the yardage differences between our tees and moving up to the green tees averaged out my 30 yards or so of distance loss. And I feel I do not have to march to the beat of anyone elses beat of a drum. That was when I decided to move up one set of tees whether anyone likes it or not. If they did not like it then I would quit the shootouts and Nine and Dines and just play my morning rounds and late rounds either modern or vintage. I retired from high stakes money matches and Mini Tours like 12 years ago now and play for fun period. Come to find out none of our regular members had any objection at all because they know and saw me rehabbing. So yes golf is fun for me again and I am pain free. I tell anyone regardless of age or gender or even handicap to move up to where it is fun

[BIG STU]

6 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

They probably don't or if they did they probably changed it. It is the golf courses that label the tees men's or womens at this point.

 

Our course referrs to the colors only. On the shootouts and nine and dines they do say the age thing and " ladies hit from the red tees" like one of my Pros/ Co Owner stated it we did the announcing on the distance thing it would confuse people and with a sly wink said that I was the only one who knew my true distance that most people think they hit it further than they do anyhow

[brenttharp]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:51 PM, Muckinfiddle said:

I don't think of it that way but there is a stigma for some of the guys at my club who have ridiculed other players for playing the forward tees. I am not sure if it is pride or stubborness.

If they're ridiculing other players for that, I'd call it stupidity. 

[wbn]

I play in 2 different groups, one, the old guys and two, everything from 20 year old to 75 year olds. Group one plays as follows, age 65 or younger play back tees. Age 65 to 75, one tee up. 75 to 80, forward tees modified. 80 plus full "ladies" tees. The group two is strickly handicap and everyone has a legitimate handicap. They play a point system which is adjusted to the tees you choose to play. This is the fairest system. I am the oldest and probably the shortest but the point system allows me to compete with anyone with an honest handicap. Group one, I play the modified forward tees. Group two, I play the back tees. Group one is more fun and I play more irons. Group two is more honest and I play everything in the bag.

[Nbar]

Jack Nicklaus back in the day said on a course all golfers on a par 3 or 4 golfers should be hitting a similar iron into the green. Ego the different tees. Golf magazine states Essentially, you just take the distance you hit your 5 iron and multiply it by 36. Problem is there're a lot of golfers who think they hit the ball further than they do. If everyone would go to Top Golf or somewhere there's a good Launch Monitor to see their actually yardages there would be a lot of folks moving up a tee. Good example how many time have you waited behind a group who's waiting for the green to clear on a 260 plus par 4 then watch as everyone hits their tee shot less than 200 yards.

[saz0418]

Most courses should change the color of the "forward" tees to "not-RED".   Then, it is just another set of tees to play as an option.  Same, probably with GOLD-- since it is associated with being a "Senior".    Even still, most courses have published distances, slopes and ratings from all the tees, so you should be able to establish and play to a HDCP regardless of which tees you decide to play.   At 63 and probably average distance for that age-- maybe a little shorter, I moved back and forth between blue tees and white tees at my home course.  We have a competition twice a month.   As a 9/10 index,  I am generally giving up 3 or 4 strokes to play one tee forward.   So, you just have to decide what tees give you the best chance to score.   

I will note (from experience, sadly) that if you decide to start playing forward a tee (to a lower, adjusted HDCP)-- and then you start playing poorly, your index will balloon pretty quickly.   I am living proof that you can play bad golf from any tee.  And playing to a HDCP that is 3 or 4 lower because the course is shorter just makes those mid-80's scores all the worse.  Also, beware that forward tees bring bunkers and hazards into play on some holes that would not even be an issue from farther back.   Again, you need to evaluate which tees make the most sense for you and play on.  But shorter is not always going to be the advantage you might think it is.   

Interesting:  if you follow playing blogs from players in the UK, they actually play the course to their HDCP.  If it's a hard par 4 and they get a stroke, they try to play it to a 5.     It seems like many of the people I play with ignore their HDCP and try to play every hole to its par rating regardless of the difficulty or the risks or hazards.   That often  leads to big numbers.   

[excourse]

13 hours ago, glenmore5 said:

I remember reading that if you multiply the distance you hit your 5 iron by 36...you get the distance of the tees you should be playing off.

That formula worked well for me when I was playing 18 hole golf courses. Here in the Villages all we ever play are the multitude of executive courses, and we all play the gold tees. Par 4s are generally under 400 yds, the par 3s usually no longer then 160. I'm sure there are folks here who play the longer tees, I just haven't run into them yet. FWIW, the longest club I carry is a 20* 5 wood.

[chisag]

2 hours ago, saz0418 said:

Most courses should change the color of the "forward" tees to "not-RED".   Then, it is just another set of tees to play as an option.  Same, probably with GOLD-- since it is associated with being a "Senior".

 

... It would involve a new scorecard but it would be easy enough to just flip the tees at most courses. The tips should be red anyway as a warning only those long enough should be playing from there. But reversing to Red-Gold-Silver-Black would elevate many of the ego problems some have about moving to an appropriate tee. 

[funkyjudge]

2 hours ago, saz0418 said:

Most courses should change the color of the "forward" tees to "not-RED".   Then, it is just another set of tees to play as an option.  Same, probably with GOLD-- since it is associated with being a "Senior".    Even still, most courses have published distances, slopes and ratings from all the tees, so you should be able to establish and play to a HDCP regardless of which tees you decide to play.   At 63 and probably average distance for that age-- maybe a little shorter, I moved back and forth between blue tees and white tees at my home course.  We have a competition twice a month.   As a 9/10 index,  I am generally giving up 3 or 4 strokes to play one tee forward.   So, you just have to decide what tees give you the best chance to score.   

I will note (from experience, sadly) that if you decide to start playing forward a tee (to a lower, adjusted HDCP)-- and then you start playing poorly, your index will balloon pretty quickly.   I am living proof that you can play bad golf from any tee.  And playing to a HDCP that is 3 or 4 lower because the course is shorter just makes those mid-80's scores all the worse.  Also, beware that forward tees bring bunkers and hazards into play on some holes that would not even be an issue from farther back.   Again, you need to evaluate which tees make the most sense for you and play on.  But shorter is not always going to be the advantage you might think it is.   

Interesting:  if you follow playing blogs from players in the UK, they actually play the course to their HDCP.  If it's a hard par 4 and they get a stroke, they try to play it to a 5.     It seems like many of the people I play with ignore their HDCP and try to play every hole to its par rating regardless of the difficulty or the risks or hazards.   That often  leads to big numbers.   

In England and Scotland, every course that I played had gold tees, but they most definitely were NOT “senior” tees. The senior tees were generally green, and the gold tees typically played between 6,200-6,500 yards.  At a couple of those courses, our caddies told us that we should not play the gold tees unless we carried a legitimate handicap below about 12-15 and could hit our drivers more than 225 yards on the fly.

Edited November 24, 2022 by funkyjudge

[brenttharp]

2 hours ago, saz0418 said:

"I am living proof that you can play bad golf from any tee . . . Shorter is not always going to be the advantage you might think it is."

The golf gods never give us a break. I finished a round a couple weeks ago and was quite pleased with my score until my playing partner reminded me that par from the tees we had played was 68, not 72. I often find par 5 holes easier than the rest, but there's more room for error, provided one can hit far enough. Sometimes, a 260-yard par 4 is only 180 from the forward tee, but when the HDCP is considered, it's really one of the strokes in that four-stroke difference, so it's a 180-yard green instead of a, say, 60-yard layup. 

2 hours ago, saz0418 said:

 

 

[brenttharp]

39 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

In England and Scotland, every course that I played had gold tees, but they most definitely were NOT “senior” tees. The senior tees were generally green, and the gold tees typically played between 6,200-6,500 yards.  At a couple of those courses, our caddies told us that we should not play the gold tees unless we carried a legitimate handicap below about 12-15 and could hit our drivers more than 225 yards on the fly.

I like courses that post the numbers on their scorecards or at the shop. I've found that the courses that are serious about enforcing pace of play are VERY upfront about their expectations of distance and handicap for the various tees, as they state it explicitly. 

[brenttharp]

2 hours ago, saz0418 said:

Most courses should change the color of the "forward" tees to "not-RED".   Then, it is just another set of tees to play as an option.  Same, probably with GOLD-- since it is associated with being a "Senior".    Even still, most courses have published distances, slopes and ratings from all the tees, so you should be able to establish and play to a HDCP regardless of which tees you decide to play.   At 63 and probably average distance for that age-- maybe a little shorter, I moved back and forth between blue tees and white tees at my home course.  We have a competition twice a month.   As a 9/10 index,  I am generally giving up 3 or 4 strokes to play one tee forward.   So, you just have to decide what tees give you the best chance to score.   

I will note (from experience, sadly) that if you decide to start playing forward a tee (to a lower, adjusted HDCP)-- and then you start playing poorly, your index will balloon pretty quickly.   I am living proof that you can play bad golf from any tee.  And playing to a HDCP that is 3 or 4 lower because the course is shorter just makes those mid-80's scores all the worse.  Also, beware that forward tees bring bunkers and hazards into play on some holes that would not even be an issue from farther back.   Again, you need to evaluate which tees make the most sense for you and play on.  But shorter is not always going to be the advantage you might think it is.   

Interesting:  if you follow playing blogs from players in the UK, they actually play the course to their HDCP.  If it's a hard par 4 and they get a stroke, they try to play it to a 5.     It seems like many of the people I play with ignore their HDCP and try to play every hole to its par rating regardless of the difficulty or the risks or hazards.   That often  leads to big numbers.   

I played once with a guy who was a 7 or 8 who kept his own version of a scorecard. He showed me that he added the 7 or 8 strokes where he believed he was most likely to need them. Then he shot to those numbers. He said it better reflected how well he was playing a hole, and it was mentally/emotionally more satisfying because it meant that when he played well, he was at par, whereas when he was over, he could see more clearly what he needed to work on. 

[WiTerp50]

14 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Our par 5 #5 hole is 498y from the Red tee... and into the prevailing wind!!

And the USGA is worried about equipment being too long…. What would the harm be to move the white tee to the red tee and add a red tee under 450?  Unless of course super seniors and average women “play too slow” and this to discourage them from playing. Seriously, in 20 years the 10 year olds will be primary players and today’s seniors will be eating rice cereal at a home. If the USGA wants to grow the game and not focused on television revenue, they should focus on the millions that would do better with shorter tee options. 
One of the last times my wife golfed, we played a vintage course with the 500 yard red tee par 5. Picking up after a snowman and not yet on the green helped drive her away. I had to search out courses with 5200-5400 yard forward tees. Not as easy as it should be. Conversely, any woman driving over 220 yards should move back. My favorite scramble is having a woman on the crew that can out drive me and on the forward tees. 

[Kenny B]

4 hours ago, WiTerp50 said:

And the USGA is worried about equipment being too long…. What would the harm be to move the white tee to the red tee and add a red tee under 450?  Unless of course super seniors and average women “play too slow” and this to discourage them from playing. Seriously, in 20 years the 10 year olds will be primary players and today’s seniors will be eating rice cereal at a home. If the USGA wants to grow the game and not focused on television revenue, they should focus on the millions that would do better with shorter tee options. 
One of the last times my wife golfed, we played a vintage course with the 500 yard red tee par 5. Picking up after a snowman and not yet on the green helped drive her away. I had to search out courses with 5200-5400 yard forward tees. Not as easy as it should be. Conversely, any woman driving over 220 yards should move back. My favorite scramble is having a woman on the crew that can out drive me and on the forward tees. 

I agree that the Red tee should be closer to the green on this hole, but the Red tees already play only 4800y.  The course is a muni and their budget is determined by the city; there are a lot of other projects that need to be addressed that have a higher priority IMO.

At 66 my wife doesn't hit the ball very far, but she has parred this hole... driver, 3W, 3W, 4H, one putt.  It's the Ladies #1 handicap hole.  Her handicap index is 15.  Any woman driving over 220y should be playing our Blue tees... two tees back from the Red, and we do have a couple that can play there.  That's further than I drive the ball.

[GaryF]

A common theme throughout most of the posts here is that playing from appropriate tees makes the game/experience more fun.  I totally agree and being older with a slower slower SS, I play from our middle of our 5 tees.  On my main course, I can reach all the greens in regulation with a decent tee shot, with the approach being an iron or wedge and occasional 4h on a poorer drive.  On a couple other courses, I can reach almost all holes in regulation, and the few that I can’t, I’m experimenting with  a 5w and 7w with positive results. 

But back to the ‘fun’ aspect - sorry I am going to stray here.  I have no issue playing with higher hdcp players (20s-30s) and have enjoyed many fun times.  But I have played with some that get so angry with bad mishits that builds...and builds...and builds, and doesn’t matter what tees they play from because their expectations don’t match reality. I guess my point - it’s a game that should be fun with good camaraderie. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by GaryF

[BIG STU]

On 11/23/2022 at 8:55 PM, chisag said:

 

... While guidelines are good at ... well ... being guidelines, common sense should always prevail. I'll be 70 in a few months and hit my 5 iron 185 so 6600 is a good max number for me as a guideline. That said, it depends on what course I am playing. My home course is 6403 from the silver (mens) tees. Tips at 7089 are too long and Sr's at 5952 are too short. But there are several holes that hide the courses length with 2 par 4's at 277 and 294, and a par 3 at 115 (very difficult hole). These short holes allow for a 439, 430 and 426 finishing hole that all play uphill off the tee so very little roll. 

... When the day comes that I can no longer reach these holes with a 3 or 4 hybrid, I will move up but only on these longer holes. Yet I play with golfers that have about a .01% chance of reaching those greens. I play with an 80 yr old pard and have convinced him to move up on these holes to the red tees and a little reluctant at first he thanks me now as his round is much more enjoyable and he has a chance to shoot his age. 82 has been his best so far but always hoping! 

... I hate to sound like a broken record but to the best of your ability, you should be playing each hole the way it was designed. For more than a few that will mean combo tees. If they are unavailable or playing in leagues that don't allow combo's, move up a tee box. It is just so much more enjoyable playing a round on a course that is just a little too short for you than one that is too long for you. And your ability should be a factor as well. I can hit my 3 hy from 210yds on the green or at least somewhere around the green for an easy chip more often than not. If it is rare to very rare for you to reach from 210yds or be around the green, you are probably not having as much fun if that approach shot was from 175yds. Common sense: "good sense and sound judgment in practical matters" works in life and on the golf course. 

While "common sense" is a great guideline it does not exist much today in golf or life? And I know you are in great shape for your age and have a good swing despite your back problems. In all honesty for me today at sea level I get like 160 out of the 5 iron if I hit it well. I still carry it and the 4 iron and I will hit them if the situation dictates but mostly for me it is the 7 wood at 21* and the 9 wood at 24*. 

[BIG STU]

On 11/24/2022 at 3:30 AM, brenttharp said:

If they're ridiculing other players for that, I'd call it stupidity. 

I agree and they would get my death stare and be told to kiss my *** in no uncertain terms. I would also not play with them. A few years back my late friend Little Bear and I were paired with a older guy who used a broomstick putter. Someone must have chided him over it because he was defensive and told us up front that he used one. Bear told him no one in this group cares if you use a 10 foot putter stuck up your wazoo that the first tee was open to hit it. The older gent was from out of town and a hoot to play with. After the round he told us thanks because no one gave him any flack over his putter--- I gave him my number and told him any time he was down to call me and he could play with us and he was more than welcome

[Middler]

On 11/24/2022 at 9:04 AM, saz0418 said:

Most courses should change the color of the "forward" tees to "not-RED".   Then, it is just another set of tees to play as an option.  Same, probably with GOLD-- since it is associated with being a "Senior".    Even still, most courses have published distances, slopes and ratings from all the tees, so you should be able to establish and play to a HDCP regardless of which tees you decide to play.

Seriously? Like no one would know which tees are designated for women? And we should change generational norms to protect the male ego (old guys)? If you’re so insecure it bothers you to play the women’s red tees, you deserve to struggle off the whites. I’m sure guys who play the tips chide friends who play the blues/whites, but I don’t see them whining here.

I wonder what women think of men giving men another tee, so men have 3-5 tees to choose from and women none? The distances will be exactly as they are, but we need to change the designation and/or color because some old guys can’t cope? I’ve seen courses with men’s black, blue, white, (senior) gold, (women’s) red and (senior women, super senior men, juniors) green.

Like others have said, when the day comes that I have to play the women’s red tees (to have a chance to reach in regulation), I couldn’t care less what others say. I’m still out there playing, beats being on the couch…

[BIG STU]

44 minutes ago, Middler said:

Seriously? Like no one would know which tees are designated for women? And we should change generational norms to protect the male ego (old guys)? If you’re so vain it bothers you to play the women’s red tees, you deserve to struggle off the whites. I’m sure guys who play the tips chide friends who play the blues/whites, but I don’t see them whining here.

I wonder what women think of men giving men another tee, so men have 3-5 tees to choose from and women none? The distances will be exactly as they are, but we need to change the designation and/or color because some old guys can’t cope? I’ve seen courses with men’s black, blue, white, (senior) gold, (women’s) red and (senior women, super senior men, juniors) green.

Like others have said, when the day comes that I have to play the women’s red tees (to have a chance to reach in regulation), I couldn’t care less what others say. I’m still out there playing, beats being on the couch…

That last paragraph summs up my attitude exactly

[GaryF]

22 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... It would involve a new scorecard but it would be easy enough to just flip the tees at most courses. The tips should be red anyway as a warning only those long enough should be playing from there. But reversing to Red-Gold-Silver-Black would elevate many of the ego problems some have about moving to an appropriate tee. 

Our courses each have 5 sets of tees labeled 1-5 on the scorecard.  Tees 3-5 have both men’s and women’s slope rating listed.  In addition, there are combos also listed with both men’s and women’s slope ratings, and GHIN lists those for entering scores.  Seems simple enough.