Outside looking in (lesson observation)

[Goober]

I’ve noticed the YouTube trend is these forced; uncomfortable looking exaggerated golf positions. Most do this without a ball for the instructor. And than when they introduce the ball you don’t see much of any of the exaggerations

 

my question is ? Isn’t this a little too forced? And how can one really maintain an over exaggeration like that?  Speaking in amateur club golf terms. Excluding pros with exaggerated practice routines. 

[stephenmatt]

Yes and no. This goes back to "feel vs real". The exaggerations help show your body and mind where the changes need to be made. In reality when you try to introduce them into the swing it will be a small change but a bunch of repetitions of this and you'll slowly start to be able to incorporate it into the real thing.

Edited November 21, 2022 by stephenmatt

[Goober]

1 hour ago, stephenmatt said:

Yes and no. This goes back to "feel vs real". The exaggerations help show your body and mind where the changes need to be made. In reality when you try to introduce them into the swing it will be a small change but a bunch of repetitions of this and you'll slowly start to be able to incorporate it into the real thing.

What if someone has many areas wrong in their swings? It would be a million over exaggeration moves

 

seems so tedious 

[DaveP043]

I know an instructor who runs another golf website.  He was on the list of "Best Young Instructors" in Golf Digest.  he studies the golf mechanics stuff from people like Sasho McKenzie, he uses Gears equipment to document actual movements, he uses video, he's one of those guys.  He also studies the way we humans learn, how to make changes effectively.  No instructor wants you to swing with the exaggerated changes from a drill, but that drill WILL change the way you perceive your own movements.  @stephenmattsaid it well, exaggerated drills will help you to make small changes.  Lots of players would like a change to their swing to feel natural immediately.  Well it won't, not if its a change.  If it feels natural, it means you're still doing things the same way as you were before the lesson.  Exaggerated drills work, thats why modern instructors use them.  

And you just posted a new question, good instructors will help you to make one (or maybe two) change at a time.  Work on that until you can consistently do it, and then move to the next most important change.

[stephenmatt]

Sure it would. The golf swing isn't meant to be completely overhauled in one day. That is why a lot of people find themselves not getting better. A complete swing overhaul will take years most likely to make it become normal and effortless. Exaggerations, mirror work, and slow motion reps are all shown to be very successful.

[stephenmatt]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I know an instructor who runs another golf website.  He was on the list of "Best Young Instructors" in Golf Digest.  he studies the golf mechanics stuff from people like Sasho McKenzie, he uses Gears equipment to document actual movements, he uses video, he's one of those guys.  He also studies the way we humans learn, how to make changes effectively.  No instructor wants you to swing with the exaggerated changes from a drill, but that drill WILL change the way you perceive your own movements.  @stephenmattsaid it well, exaggerated drills will help you to make small changes.  Lots of players would like a change to their swing to feel natural immediately.  Well it won't, not if its a change.  If it feels natural, it means you're still doing things the same way as you were before the lesson.  Exaggerated drills work, thats why modern instructors use them.  

And you just posted a new question, good instructors will help you to make one (or maybe two) change at a time.  Work on that until you can consistently do it, and then move to the next most important change.

Very well said @DaveP043.

[Goober]

I totally get the idea. And I did it for 11 months with a ‘in the know’ style of instructor. What I’m saying is it seems so excruciating. And almost makes the game of golf feel more like a job than a fun enjoyable hobby. Totally loving the tour striker plane mate. And for me that is really opening some new doors of feels that I’ve been seeking. But just couldn’t grasp with a real ball in front of me 

I work on my game 15 to 30 mins daily in this off season. With a mirror and my plane mate on. But some of these contrived positions I see on YouTube make me cringe. I’m not sure there is enough time in an average amateurs day to really grasp some of that stuff. Kudos to all who are going down the complete overhaul path 

[DaveP043]

38 minutes ago, Goober said:

I totally get the idea. And I did it for 11 months with a ‘in the know’ style of instructor. What I’m saying is it seems so excruciating. And almost makes the game of golf feel more like a job than a fun enjoyable hobby. Totally loving the tour striker plane mate. And for me that is really opening some new doors of feels that I’ve been seeking. But just couldn’t grasp with a real ball in front of me 

I work on my game 15 to 30 mins daily in this off season. With a mirror and my plane mate on. But some of these contrived positions I see on YouTube make me cringe. I’m not sure there is enough time in an average amateurs day to really grasp some of that stuff. Kudos to all who are going down the complete overhaul path 

The problem with anything on Youtube is that its not designed for YOU, its designed for some schmuck who's diagnosed his own swing faults (probably wrong) and is now going to change his swing (also probably the wrong changes).  In my mind, the true talents of really good instructors are the ability to see beyond symptoms and identify underlying problems, and the ability to tailor his instruction to each individual student.  There are probably a dozen different reasons a player might swing "over the top", and a dozen different swing thoughts and/or drills to correct each of those potential problems.  If you've found something that works for you, great, keep it up.  Don't go looking at Youtube for more cures, you will only do yourself harm.  I know, you hear people who will rave about some guy's instruction.  Well, it works for them, but it may not work for 90% of the golfers in the world.  

But you mention "excruciating".  Making a lasting change to your swing isn't easy, there's not some lightbulb moment.  Change is hard, NOT changing is easy.  

[Goober]

15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The problem with anything on Youtube is that its not designed for YOU, its designed for some schmuck who's diagnosed his own swing faults (probably wrong) and is now going to change his swing (also probably the wrong changes).  In my mind, the true talents of really good instructors are the ability to see beyond symptoms and identify underlying problems, and the ability to tailor his instruction to each individual student.  There are probably a dozen different reasons a player might swing "over the top", and a dozen different swing thoughts and/or drills to correct each of those potential problems.  If you've found something that works for you, great, keep it up.  Don't go looking at Youtube for more cures, you will only do yourself harm.  I know, you hear people who will rave about some guy's instruction.  Well, it works for them, but it may not work for 90% of the golfers in the world.  

But you mention "excruciating".  Making a lasting change to your swing isn't easy, there's not some lightbulb moment.  Change is hard, NOT changing is easy.  

Well said David. At times I wonder if they are searching more of a look than a functional motion. Personally, if they developed me the oddest swing know to golf.. but it was functional. Than I choose odd and different all day

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, Goober said:

Well said David. At times I wonder if they are searching more of a look than a functional motion. Personally, if they developed me the oddest swing know to golf.. but it was functional. Than I choose odd and different all day

I don't know which ones you're looking at, I wouldn't start to guess.  But I bet that many are sharing a drill or feel that worked with at least a few real players, to correct a specific issue.  But if its on Youtube, they're posting it to get clicks, or maybe to sell membership in their instruction program.  Its always about money, as are so many things in life.

[Goober]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't know which ones you're looking at, I wouldn't start to guess.  But I bet that many are sharing a drill or feel that worked with at least a few real players, to correct a specific issue.  But if its on Youtube, they're posting it to get clicks, or maybe to sell membership in their instruction program.  Its always about money, as are so many things in life.

Not sure who I was watching. Was several of them. Seems like I was doing very well avoiding all YouTube. Hahahah

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Goober said:

I totally get the idea. And I did it for 11 months with a ‘in the know’ style of instructor. What I’m saying is it seems so excruciating. And almost makes the game of golf feel more like a job than a fun enjoyable hobby. Totally loving the tour striker plane mate. And for me that is really opening some new doors of feels that I’ve been seeking. But just couldn’t grasp with a real ball in front of me 

I work on my game 15 to 30 mins daily in this off season. With a mirror and my plane mate on. But some of these contrived positions I see on YouTube make me cringe. I’m not sure there is enough time in an average amateurs day to really grasp some of that stuff. Kudos to all who are going down the complete overhaul path 

Instructors are trying to change motor movements and that takes time. Exaggerated drills teach the body what to do, but when the real swing is happening they won’t be in those positions because it’s nearly impossible to. Example is Monte teaches to point the butt of the club parallel to the ground as a drill to teach lead arm rotation on the backswing. Nobody will ever get there but if the arm doesn’t know how to turn it won’t do it under pressure of a real swing.

The bolded part is why it’s hard for most amateurs to make dramatic improvements. They either lack the time or don’t want to take the time. Also most don’t need a huge overhaul if they have a good instructor who will have them work on things that will make the most improvement up front then once that’s in place look at what’s next to get them to their goal. Most amateurs only need the first part to get better and shoot lower scores and unless trying to be an elite amateur won’t continue to work on the game and really only need a few mins a day of drills 

21 hours ago, Goober said:

What if someone has many areas wrong in their swings? It would be a million over exaggeration moves

 

seems so tedious 

Those with “lots of things” to work on are looking at symptoms and not the cause or causes. Many times fixing a larger issue like the pivot will fix a lot of the smaller issues because then body and club are in better positions. This is why the trying to fix things by oneself is a bad idea. The golfer is looking for quick fixes which may work for a short time then they band aid falls off.

[NC Golfer]

Good stuff guys. It was cool to see Lydia Ko, work on a feel in her backswing this past weekend (as a pre-swing) and it was eye opening. Even pros need feels and drills to work on. I always assumed pros know what to do and just do everything correctly already. 

[Goober]

Great post as usual Ricky. You would make a great instructor 

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, Goober said:

Great post as usual Ricky. You would make a great instructor 

Thanks. I don’t have the time to dedicate to do it, even on a part time basis, but I do some work with friends when I see them or if they ask for help. Although there are some possibilities that I may get into a bit more soon

[Kenny B]

3 hours ago, NC Golfer said:

Good stuff guys. It was cool to see Lydia Ko, work on a feel in her backswing this past weekend (as a pre-swing) and it was eye opening. Even pros need feels and drills to work on. I always assumed pros know what to do and just do everything correctly already. 

Alex Noren is another one with a pre-swing exaggerated "feel drill".  He had a good tournament this last weekend at the DP World Tour Championship.  Good to see hime get back to form.

[RickyBobby_PR]

49 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Alex Noren is another one with a pre-swing exaggerated "feel drill".  He had a good tournament this last weekend at the DP World Tour Championship.  Good to see hime get back to form.

Rose does some exaggeration drills. Padraig does some too.

If anyone watches GG videos you will see him have students do some and they get nowhere near that in the swing.

It’s not just in practice but watch JT, Ko, Rickie and they have exaggerated takeaway practice moves to create the feel they want on the swing 

[TR1PTIK]

16 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The problem with anything on Youtube is that its not designed for YOU, its designed for some schmuck who's diagnosed his own swing faults (probably wrong) and is now going to change his swing (also probably the wrong changes).  In my mind, the true talents of really good instructors are the ability to see beyond symptoms and identify underlying problems, and the ability to tailor his instruction to each individual student.  There are probably a dozen different reasons a player might swing "over the top", and a dozen different swing thoughts and/or drills to correct each of those potential problems.  If you've found something that works for you, great, keep it up.  Don't go looking at Youtube for more cures, you will only do yourself harm.  I know, you hear people who will rave about some guy's instruction.  Well, it works for them, but it may not work for 90% of the golfers in the world.  

But you mention "excruciating".  Making a lasting change to your swing isn't easy, there's not some lightbulb moment.  Change is hard, NOT changing is easy.  

Great response. Best thing I ever did for my game personally was stop trying to do what the guys on YouTube and in magazines would say. If I'm not working with an instructor, then I'm working alone with the assistance of a camera and/or mirror on the things that are most important to me. Right now, that is lack of rotation and early extension so exaggerations akin to Tiger's or Alex Noren's fit the bill for me.