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I get very confused in discussions of jacked lofts in irons as in most recent No Putts Given.


HAC
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I was just listening to No Putts Given discussing how wouldn't it be better to hit a say 7 iron that goes a little less distance but has a nicer ball flight over a 7 iron with less loft that does not go up in the air as well.

Does anyone think of their shots this way?  I step up to a par 3 let us say with a distance of x yards.  I have say traditionally used a 7 iron to hit it this distance.  If I bought new irons that went further, wouldn't I be using an 8 iron instead of a 7 iron?  If I bought new irons with higher lofts, wouldn't I be using a 6 iron?  

Isn't the proper comparison not between a more consistent ball flight among say 7 irons but a more consistent and better ball flight between whichever club needs to get you to x yards (which could be a hybrid)?  Wouldn't I really care whether a 7 iron with jacked lofts is easier or harder to hit than a 6 iron with "regular lofts" (whatever that means) and not whether a 7 iron with jacked lofts is easier or harder to hit than a 7 iron with "regular lofts"?

I know that ego is very important here.  That guys want to brag to their friends that I only used an 8 iron where you needed a 6 iron, but for those of us who care about results and not bragging rights, does it really matter what # is on the club?  What I want to know is which club is the easiest for me to hit x yards.  Seems like these comparisons of 7 irons is mostly about ego and what you are hitting in the hitting bay when comparing irons, not what is relevant playing golf.

Seems like we are asking the wrong questions here.  Does anyone agree or disagree?

Edited by HAC
  • :taylormade-small: Sim 2 Driver Fujikura Ventus Blue 6R shaft
  • :taylormade-small:Sim 2 5 wood Fujikura Ventus Blue 5R shaft
  •  th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0311 Gen 5 Seven Wood Project X Cypher 50 5.5 shaft set to flat with weights set to fade.
  • :titelist-small: H818 Hybrid 25 degrees Tensei ck Series 60 HY regular flex shafts at C4 setting (flat for lefties)
  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
  • :vokey-small: SM 7 Wedge 58 degrees M grind with 8 bounce Steel shafts wedge flex bent 2 degrees flat
  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
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1 hour ago, HAC said:

Seems like we are asking the wrong questions here.  Does anyone agree or disagree?

I had to go listen to the NPG episode to get context and based on their discussion I think you are looking at this incorrectly.  While they mentioned lofts and jacked lofts I didn’t see that as the important part of the conversation.   
 

Players seek more distance with their irons; not necessarily necessary and might largely be ego and to accomplish that we typically see lower ball flights and less spin to accomplish the distance increase.  While I may hit the ball farther, it comes with the cost of not being able to stop the ball on the green or that the player has to land short and let the ball run onto the green.   This is one reason why I don’t personally like Cobra irons….they may go far but low,launch, low spin.    The run up to the green strategy may work for some courses, but what about if there is a hazard in the way; you have to carry farther and then run off the back of the green.
 

now companies, Mizuno was specifically mentioned on NPG, are designing clubs that launch higher and spin a little more.  The reason is that players should probably look for more stopping power on the greens which is achieved through a combination of higher launch and spin.  The sacrifice of this change may be distance.  This is what the basic argument against jacked lofts has been.

another consideration that wasn’t mentioned is typical playing conditions.  If you play in windy conditions you probably want a lower ball flight but need spin to help stop the ball.   

Maybe the evaluation players should make is the difference between carry and total distance.  Longer clubs can have larger differences but as you get into shorter irons you want basically want carry to equal total.  

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I had to go listen to the NPG episode to get context and based on their discussion I think you are looking at this incorrectly.  While they mentioned lofts and jacked lofts I didn’t see that as the important part of the conversation.   
 

Players seek more distance with their irons; not necessarily necessary and might largely be ego and to accomplish that we typically see lower ball flights and less spin to accomplish the distance increase.  While I may hit the ball farther, it comes with the cost of not being able to stop the ball on the green or that the player has to land short and let the ball run onto the green.   This is one reason why I don’t personally like Cobra irons….they may go far but low,launch, low spin.    The run up to the green strategy may work for some courses, but what about if there is a hazard in the way; you have to carry farther and then run off the back of the green.
 

now companies, Mizuno was specifically mentioned on NPG, are designing clubs that launch higher and spin a little more.  The reason is that players should probably look for more stopping power on the greens which is achieved through a combination of higher launch and spin.  The sacrifice of this change may be distance.  This is what the basic argument against jacked lofts has been.

another consideration that wasn’t mentioned is typical playing conditions.  If you play in windy conditions you probably want a lower ball flight but need spin to help stop the ball.   

Maybe the evaluation players should make is the difference between carry and total distance.  Longer clubs can have larger differences but as you get into shorter irons you want basically want carry to equal total.  

If the seven iron (say) has higher loft and higher spin and it goes less far and I have x distance to the green, won't I have to use a 6 iron to reach the green.  Using Mizuno as an example, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal is 28.5 degrees.  Yes, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal HL is 31 degrees, but the loft on the 6 iron of the HM high launch is 28 degrees.  If I have to use the 6 iron in the high launch to hit the green, what have I accomplished by going to the high launch?  

If we were talking about a driver, I could see the point in giving up distance to have better accuracy and more consistent launch.  But, is this really happening on an iron in my example above?

Edited by HAC
  • :taylormade-small: Sim 2 Driver Fujikura Ventus Blue 6R shaft
  • :taylormade-small:Sim 2 5 wood Fujikura Ventus Blue 5R shaft
  •  th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0311 Gen 5 Seven Wood Project X Cypher 50 5.5 shaft set to flat with weights set to fade.
  • :titelist-small: H818 Hybrid 25 degrees Tensei ck Series 60 HY regular flex shafts at C4 setting (flat for lefties)
  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
  • :vokey-small: SM 7 Wedge 58 degrees M grind with 8 bounce Steel shafts wedge flex bent 2 degrees flat
  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
  • Go back and forth between :cameron-small: Select Newport 2 putter 34 inch length and :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne putter 33 inch length
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I think a lot of this is subjective and going to vary greatly from player to player and bag to bag. First, you can jack lofts but that is only one part of a larger scheme of things that control distance and stopping power. Companies now are able to jack lofts up because the technology to do so and still remain pretty forgiving is possible. In the past, you obtained forgiveness and stopping power by having higher launch. Today we have much finer milling and laser milling and more technologically advanced equipment. The biggest improvements in the game of golf have come in the form of the golf ball. Combine that with the advancements in shafts, and you have a far more customizable bag than ever before. If you want lower launch and higher spin, then you can find irons and shafts and balls to do that. If you want higher launch and lower spin, then you can do that too. I personally dropped my 4i for a 7w specifically because it launched higher and landed softer. I crushed the Cobra LTDX 20 yards further than the new TM Stealth+ driver, but I chose the TM driver because for me it had a much tighter dispersion. Getting fitted is fairly important and then you and the fitter have to make the decision for what that individual wants and needs.

I think this is going to be different from player to player and bag to bag what people want and what works for them. There are golfers with different swings, swing speeds, locations, climates, balls, etc. that will want different things.

15 minutes ago, HAC said:

If I have to use the 6 iron in the high launch to hit the green, what have I accomplished by going to the high launch?  

But do you have to use the 6 iron? You only mention the launch which is only 1 aspect of what makes a ball travel x distance...

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There will come a point in time where one needs to gain back some distance because of slower swing speed, of which is where I am now. One can call it ego if they wish, but it becomes easier to hit a 7 iron into the green as opposed to a 5 or even a 4 iron. OEM's apparently realize this and are offering up the "jacked lofts". If one does not necessarily want those irons, then hybrids with the longer shafts can accomplish the same thing. The new irons with stronger loft also have different weight displacement which allows higher ball flight and softer landings, which help to hold greens.  Bottom line, play what makes the game easier and offers more enjoyment. 

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I agree with the issue being raised.  I am 67 and now have a 6 iron as my longest iron.  I have a 25 degree hybrid and a 7 wood instead of longer irons.  I have friends whose longest irons are their 8 iron and have either hybrids or hybrid-irons (like the ones made by Cleveland) to solve the issue being raised.  I can see a future where I go to a six hybrid instead of my 6 iron (not for height, which is not an issue with me, but for consistency in hitting the ball straight). 

So, I agree that the issue is real.  I just don't see how raising the loft in irons solves it.  Seems to me that this just kind of changes the number at the bottom of the iron and not that much else (except maybe the length of the iron.  I would think if I wanted a 28 degree iron, if they go the same distance (big if), I would rather have one called a 7 iron if it is shorter than one called a 6 iron if it is longer.  

Edited by HAC
  • :taylormade-small: Sim 2 Driver Fujikura Ventus Blue 6R shaft
  • :taylormade-small:Sim 2 5 wood Fujikura Ventus Blue 5R shaft
  •  th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0311 Gen 5 Seven Wood Project X Cypher 50 5.5 shaft set to flat with weights set to fade.
  • :titelist-small: H818 Hybrid 25 degrees Tensei ck Series 60 HY regular flex shafts at C4 setting (flat for lefties)
  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
  • :vokey-small: SM 7 Wedge 58 degrees M grind with 8 bounce Steel shafts wedge flex bent 2 degrees flat
  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
  • Go back and forth between :cameron-small: Select Newport 2 putter 34 inch length and :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne putter 33 inch length
  • :titelist-small:  Pro V1 although I use Maxfli Tours during the offseason and other days when I am not playing well and don't want to lose Pro V1s.  
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11 minutes ago, HAC said:

If the seven iron (say) has higher loft and higher spin and it goes less far and I have x distance to the green, won't I have to use a 6 iron to reach the green.  Using Mizuno as an example, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal is 28.5 degrees.  Yes, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal HL is 31 degrees, but the loft on the 6 iron of the HM high launch is 28 degrees.  If I have to use the 6 iron in the high launch to hit the green, what have I accomplished by going to the high launch?  

 


I don’t think you should think about club number or loft; you need a club that carries a specific distance. Let’s say you have 2 150 yard carry clubs; one launches higher and spins more and one that launches lower and spins less. The higher launching, higher spinning iron will also descend steeper so total distance will be near the 150 yard mark no matter course conditions so I have a smaller overall dispersion pattern.   The lower launching lower spinning releases more because it is coming in at a more shallow angle.  It’s release may be 5 yards on a soft day or 20 yards on a firm day so total distance becomes unpredictable.   Height and proper spin take out variables that you need to account for when playing.  
 

the NPG discussion has nothing to do with club number or lofts, if is about making golfers more consistent and playing better golf.  

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3 hours ago, cnosil said:

the NPG discussion has nothing to do with club number or lofts, if is about making golfers more consistent and playing better golf.  

Thank goodness, I don't have to debate loft jacking for the umpteenth time... 🙂

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

Thank goodness, I don't have to debate loft jacking for the umpteenth time... 🙂

It was mentioned in their discussion,  but I really don't think that was the actual point which is why I added that qualification to try and avoid that discussion as we have had it multiple times and it goes nowhere quickly 🙂     They also referenced their discussion with Lou about backloading the bag and having lower gaps in the  more lofted clubs and larger gaps in the longer clubs to be able to hit more distances with full shots.    Basically don't worry about maximizing distance with irons and try to improve dispersion.   

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
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I'm not sure if I'm only further muddying the waters here, but in the few reviews I saw online of the HL irons in direct comparison to the HM/Pro irons (Mark Crossfield in particular comes to mind), it seemed to me that the HL 7 iron, despite being 2.5 degrees weaker, went the same distance as the HM/Pro 7 iron, but the way it got there was completely different.  The HL is significantly chunkier in comparison, adding mass down low to both increase ball speed and get the ball up in the air as quickly as possible.  Again, I may have misunderstood this, but I remember being very, VERY impressed that there wasn't really a distance penalty when using the HL, but the height that the ball got made it a really easy-to-hit, desirable club for a whole lot of players.  In fact, it was so impressive, it made me want to go demo them, even though my swing-speed would be outside of the range of "suggested" players to use them (I believe if your 7-iron is sub-80 mph, Mizuno thinks you should be in the HM/Pro line).  

The more I play, the more interested I am in consistency rather than pure distance - I genuinely don't care what club gets me 150 yards, as long as I can do it every time.  

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6 minutes ago, Samsonite said:

I'm not sure if I'm only further muddying the waters here, but in the few reviews I saw online of the HL irons in direct comparison to the HM/Pro irons (Mark Crossfield in particular comes to mind), it seemed to me that the HL 7 iron, despite being 2.5 degrees weaker, went the same distance as the HM/Pro 7 iron, but the way it got there was completely different.  The HL is significantly chunkier in comparison, adding mass down low to both increase ball speed and get the ball up in the air as quickly as possible.  Again, I may have misunderstood this, but I remember being very, VERY impressed that there wasn't really a distance penalty when using the HL, but the height that the ball got made it a really easy-to-hit, desirable club for a whole lot of players.  In fact, it was so impressive, it made me want to go demo them, even though my swing-speed would be outside of the range of "suggested" players to use them (I believe if your 7-iron is sub-80 mph, Mizuno thinks you should be in the HM/Pro line).  

The more I play, the more interested I am in consistency rather than pure distance - I genuinely don't care what club gets me 150 yards, as long as I can do it every time.  

Another member on here went thru the Mizuno fitting for the jpx line and saw no difference in distance between the lines.

And yes each is designed to get there differently in launch characteristics.

Also like anything else how each one performs is going to vary for each golfer.

Those who don’t create a lot of spin are probably going to see difference with lower spin design irons compared higher spin and vice versa.

The bold part is what more people need to look at and stop looking at lofts or how far an iron goes. The key thing is does it go that distance every time on the same contact and are the misses consistent. Also does the ball flight allow for holding greens 

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I've been one of the jacked-loft villains on this forum.  The young ones are sick of hearing it, but I don't think they're really hearing it it.

I don't want them to change the way they're making the modern clubs.

I'm not an engineer nor a master clubmaker.

I just wish that they wouldn't use a numbering system adopted at the end of the hickory shaft era on modern clubs that are at minimum two-clubs stronger

at the same number stamping. 

The Louisville Golf Precision Series 2-iron has 24º loft.   The driving iron has 20º loft. 

The Titleist T100S 4-iron has only 22º loft.  

They know what they're doing, but do they know what they're stamping?

 

 

 

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What I care about is launch and spin.  If I can hit a club 160 yards with enough height and spin to hold the green, then I'm happy.  I don't care what the number is stamped on the bottom.  If fact, I currently use an 11 wood (of all things) as my 160 to 170 yard club.  I currently game two sets of irons.  One has a 32 degree 7 iron and one has a 27 degree 7 iron.  Obviously, they are not close to being comparable.  The fact that they are both labeled with a 7 is completely irrelevant.  I do compare the 31 degree 8 iron to the 32 degree 7 iron.  I get more height with the 31 degree 8 iron and more spin with the 32 degree 7 iron.  That is down to the design.  The 31 degree 8 iron is an oversized SGI with a hot face and a low center of gravity.  The 32 degree 7 iron is a one piece muscle back with a thin sole. 

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On 11/23/2022 at 7:34 AM, cnosil said:

This is one reason why I don’t personally like Cobra irons….they may go far but low,launch, low spin.

 

... I am a little surprised you would make a blanket statement like this. My Cobra MIM irons are equal in every way to the T100S played on tour. The only real difference is the MIM's have a slightly larger head so at least look more forgiving and they have a softer feel. But they most assuredly do not launch low with low spin. 


 

1 hour ago, Hook DeLoft said:

What I care about is launch and spin.  If I can hit a club 160 yards with enough height and spin to hold the green, then I'm happy.  I don't care what the number is stamped on the bottom.

 

...  I play MIM Tour and Forged Tecs and the FT's are about 1/2 club longer as well as having 5* gaps. The FT's spin a little less than the MIM's but still have enough to hold greens. For me, having an iron 1/2 club shorter that gives me the trajectory and covers my gaps with predictable spin is better than a little longer with larger gaps between irons costing me at least some distance control. I tend to be pin high more with the MIM's when swinging well and my short and long misses are closer than with the FT's. Obviously having 3 irons at 12* will yield closer grouped shots than 3 irons at 15*.  What number is on the bottom is irrelevant to me as long as all my gaps are covered. 

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