I get very confused in discussions of jacked lofts in irons as in most recent No Putts Given.

[HAC]

I was just listening to No Putts Given discussing how wouldn't it be better to hit a say 7 iron that goes a little less distance but has a nicer ball flight over a 7 iron with less loft that does not go up in the air as well.

Does anyone think of their shots this way?  I step up to a par 3 let us say with a distance of x yards.  I have say traditionally used a 7 iron to hit it this distance.  If I bought new irons that went further, wouldn't I be using an 8 iron instead of a 7 iron?  If I bought new irons with higher lofts, wouldn't I be using a 6 iron?  

Isn't the proper comparison not between a more consistent ball flight among say 7 irons but a more consistent and better ball flight between whichever club needs to get you to x yards (which could be a hybrid)?  Wouldn't I really care whether a 7 iron with jacked lofts is easier or harder to hit than a 6 iron with "regular lofts" (whatever that means) and not whether a 7 iron with jacked lofts is easier or harder to hit than a 7 iron with "regular lofts"?

I know that ego is very important here.  That guys want to brag to their friends that I only used an 8 iron where you needed a 6 iron, but for those of us who care about results and not bragging rights, does it really matter what # is on the club?  What I want to know is which club is the easiest for me to hit x yards.  Seems like these comparisons of 7 irons is mostly about ego and what you are hitting in the hitting bay when comparing irons, not what is relevant playing golf.

Seems like we are asking the wrong questions here.  Does anyone agree or disagree?

Edited November 23, 2022 by HAC

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, HAC said:

Seems like we are asking the wrong questions here.  Does anyone agree or disagree?

I had to go listen to the NPG episode to get context and based on their discussion I think you are looking at this incorrectly.  While they mentioned lofts and jacked lofts I didn’t see that as the important part of the conversation.   
 

Players seek more distance with their irons; not necessarily necessary and might largely be ego and to accomplish that we typically see lower ball flights and less spin to accomplish the distance increase.  While I may hit the ball farther, it comes with the cost of not being able to stop the ball on the green or that the player has to land short and let the ball run onto the green.   This is one reason why I don’t personally like Cobra irons….they may go far but low,launch, low spin.    The run up to the green strategy may work for some courses, but what about if there is a hazard in the way; you have to carry farther and then run off the back of the green.
 

now companies, Mizuno was specifically mentioned on NPG, are designing clubs that launch higher and spin a little more.  The reason is that players should probably look for more stopping power on the greens which is achieved through a combination of higher launch and spin.  The sacrifice of this change may be distance.  This is what the basic argument against jacked lofts has been.

another consideration that wasn’t mentioned is typical playing conditions.  If you play in windy conditions you probably want a lower ball flight but need spin to help stop the ball.   

Maybe the evaluation players should make is the difference between carry and total distance.  Longer clubs can have larger differences but as you get into shorter irons you want basically want carry to equal total.  

[HAC]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I had to go listen to the NPG episode to get context and based on their discussion I think you are looking at this incorrectly.  While they mentioned lofts and jacked lofts I didn’t see that as the important part of the conversation.   
 

Players seek more distance with their irons; not necessarily necessary and might largely be ego and to accomplish that we typically see lower ball flights and less spin to accomplish the distance increase.  While I may hit the ball farther, it comes with the cost of not being able to stop the ball on the green or that the player has to land short and let the ball run onto the green.   This is one reason why I don’t personally like Cobra irons….they may go far but low,launch, low spin.    The run up to the green strategy may work for some courses, but what about if there is a hazard in the way; you have to carry farther and then run off the back of the green.
 

now companies, Mizuno was specifically mentioned on NPG, are designing clubs that launch higher and spin a little more.  The reason is that players should probably look for more stopping power on the greens which is achieved through a combination of higher launch and spin.  The sacrifice of this change may be distance.  This is what the basic argument against jacked lofts has been.

another consideration that wasn’t mentioned is typical playing conditions.  If you play in windy conditions you probably want a lower ball flight but need spin to help stop the ball.   

Maybe the evaluation players should make is the difference between carry and total distance.  Longer clubs can have larger differences but as you get into shorter irons you want basically want carry to equal total.  

If the seven iron (say) has higher loft and higher spin and it goes less far and I have x distance to the green, won't I have to use a 6 iron to reach the green.  Using Mizuno as an example, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal is 28.5 degrees.  Yes, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal HL is 31 degrees, but the loft on the 6 iron of the HM high launch is 28 degrees.  If I have to use the 6 iron in the high launch to hit the green, what have I accomplished by going to the high launch?  

If we were talking about a driver, I could see the point in giving up distance to have better accuracy and more consistent launch.  But, is this really happening on an iron in my example above?

Edited November 23, 2022 by HAC

[OssiansFolly]

I think a lot of this is subjective and going to vary greatly from player to player and bag to bag. First, you can jack lofts but that is only one part of a larger scheme of things that control distance and stopping power. Companies now are able to jack lofts up because the technology to do so and still remain pretty forgiving is possible. In the past, you obtained forgiveness and stopping power by having higher launch. Today we have much finer milling and laser milling and more technologically advanced equipment. The biggest improvements in the game of golf have come in the form of the golf ball. Combine that with the advancements in shafts, and you have a far more customizable bag than ever before. If you want lower launch and higher spin, then you can find irons and shafts and balls to do that. If you want higher launch and lower spin, then you can do that too. I personally dropped my 4i for a 7w specifically because it launched higher and landed softer. I crushed the Cobra LTDX 20 yards further than the new TM Stealth+ driver, but I chose the TM driver because for me it had a much tighter dispersion. Getting fitted is fairly important and then you and the fitter have to make the decision for what that individual wants and needs.

I think this is going to be different from player to player and bag to bag what people want and what works for them. There are golfers with different swings, swing speeds, locations, climates, balls, etc. that will want different things.

15 minutes ago, HAC said:

If I have to use the 6 iron in the high launch to hit the green, what have I accomplished by going to the high launch?  

But do you have to use the 6 iron? You only mention the launch which is only 1 aspect of what makes a ball travel x distance...

[ballhawk]

There will come a point in time where one needs to gain back some distance because of slower swing speed, of which is where I am now. One can call it ego if they wish, but it becomes easier to hit a 7 iron into the green as opposed to a 5 or even a 4 iron. OEM's apparently realize this and are offering up the "jacked lofts". If one does not necessarily want those irons, then hybrids with the longer shafts can accomplish the same thing. The new irons with stronger loft also have different weight displacement which allows higher ball flight and softer landings, which help to hold greens.  Bottom line, play what makes the game easier and offers more enjoyment. 

[HAC]

I agree with the issue being raised.  I am 67 and now have a 6 iron as my longest iron.  I have a 25 degree hybrid and a 7 wood instead of longer irons.  I have friends whose longest irons are their 8 iron and have either hybrids or hybrid-irons (like the ones made by Cleveland) to solve the issue being raised.  I can see a future where I go to a six hybrid instead of my 6 iron (not for height, which is not an issue with me, but for consistency in hitting the ball straight). 

So, I agree that the issue is real.  I just don't see how raising the loft in irons solves it.  Seems to me that this just kind of changes the number at the bottom of the iron and not that much else (except maybe the length of the iron.  I would think if I wanted a 28 degree iron, if they go the same distance (big if), I would rather have one called a 7 iron if it is shorter than one called a 6 iron if it is longer.  

Edited November 23, 2022 by HAC

[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, HAC said:

If the seven iron (say) has higher loft and higher spin and it goes less far and I have x distance to the green, won't I have to use a 6 iron to reach the green.  Using Mizuno as an example, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal is 28.5 degrees.  Yes, the loft on the 7 iron of the hot metal HL is 31 degrees, but the loft on the 6 iron of the HM high launch is 28 degrees.  If I have to use the 6 iron in the high launch to hit the green, what have I accomplished by going to the high launch?  

 

I don’t think you should think about club number or loft; you need a club that carries a specific distance. Let’s say you have 2 150 yard carry clubs; one launches higher and spins more and one that launches lower and spins less. The higher launching, higher spinning iron will also descend steeper so total distance will be near the 150 yard mark no matter course conditions so I have a smaller overall dispersion pattern.   The lower launching lower spinning releases more because it is coming in at a more shallow angle.  It’s release may be 5 yards on a soft day or 20 yards on a firm day so total distance becomes unpredictable.   Height and proper spin take out variables that you need to account for when playing.  
 

the NPG discussion has nothing to do with club number or lofts, if is about making golfers more consistent and playing better golf.  

[Middler]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

the NPG discussion has nothing to do with club number or lofts, if is about making golfers more consistent and playing better golf.  

Thank goodness, I don't have to debate loft jacking for the umpteenth time... 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

Thank goodness, I don't have to debate loft jacking for the umpteenth time... 

It was mentioned in their discussion,  but I really don't think that was the actual point which is why I added that qualification to try and avoid that discussion as we have had it multiple times and it goes nowhere quickly      They also referenced their discussion with Lou about backloading the bag and having lower gaps in the  more lofted clubs and larger gaps in the longer clubs to be able to hit more distances with full shots.    Basically don't worry about maximizing distance with irons and try to improve dispersion.   

[GolfSpy SAM]

I'm not sure if I'm only further muddying the waters here, but in the few reviews I saw online of the HL irons in direct comparison to the HM/Pro irons (Mark Crossfield in particular comes to mind), it seemed to me that the HL 7 iron, despite being 2.5 degrees weaker, went the same distance as the HM/Pro 7 iron, but the way it got there was completely different.  The HL is significantly chunkier in comparison, adding mass down low to both increase ball speed and get the ball up in the air as quickly as possible.  Again, I may have misunderstood this, but I remember being very, VERY impressed that there wasn't really a distance penalty when using the HL, but the height that the ball got made it a really easy-to-hit, desirable club for a whole lot of players.  In fact, it was so impressive, it made me want to go demo them, even though my swing-speed would be outside of the range of "suggested" players to use them (I believe if your 7-iron is sub-80 mph, Mizuno thinks you should be in the HM/Pro line).  

The more I play, the more interested I am in consistency rather than pure distance - I genuinely don't care what club gets me 150 yards, as long as I can do it every time.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, Samsonite said:

I'm not sure if I'm only further muddying the waters here, but in the few reviews I saw online of the HL irons in direct comparison to the HM/Pro irons (Mark Crossfield in particular comes to mind), it seemed to me that the HL 7 iron, despite being 2.5 degrees weaker, went the same distance as the HM/Pro 7 iron, but the way it got there was completely different.  The HL is significantly chunkier in comparison, adding mass down low to both increase ball speed and get the ball up in the air as quickly as possible.  Again, I may have misunderstood this, but I remember being very, VERY impressed that there wasn't really a distance penalty when using the HL, but the height that the ball got made it a really easy-to-hit, desirable club for a whole lot of players.  In fact, it was so impressive, it made me want to go demo them, even though my swing-speed would be outside of the range of "suggested" players to use them (I believe if your 7-iron is sub-80 mph, Mizuno thinks you should be in the HM/Pro line).  

The more I play, the more interested I am in consistency rather than pure distance - I genuinely don't care what club gets me 150 yards, as long as I can do it every time.  

Another member on here went thru the Mizuno fitting for the jpx line and saw no difference in distance between the lines.

And yes each is designed to get there differently in launch characteristics.

Also like anything else how each one performs is going to vary for each golfer.

Those who don’t create a lot of spin are probably going to see difference with lower spin design irons compared higher spin and vice versa.

The bold part is what more people need to look at and stop looking at lofts or how far an iron goes. The key thing is does it go that distance every time on the same contact and are the misses consistent. Also does the ball flight allow for holding greens 

[BostonSal]

I've been one of the jacked-loft villains on this forum.  The young ones are sick of hearing it, but I don't think they're really hearing it it.

I don't want them to change the way they're making the modern clubs.

I'm not an engineer nor a master clubmaker.

I just wish that they wouldn't use a numbering system adopted at the end of the hickory shaft era on modern clubs that are at minimum two-clubs stronger

at the same number stamping. 

The Louisville Golf Precision Series 2-iron has 24º loft.   The driving iron has 20º loft. 

The Titleist T100S 4-iron has only 22º loft.  

They know what they're doing, but do they know what they're stamping?

 

[Hook DeLoft]

What I care about is launch and spin.  If I can hit a club 160 yards with enough height and spin to hold the green, then I'm happy.  I don't care what the number is stamped on the bottom.  If fact, I currently use an 11 wood (of all things) as my 160 to 170 yard club.  I currently game two sets of irons.  One has a 32 degree 7 iron and one has a 27 degree 7 iron.  Obviously, they are not close to being comparable.  The fact that they are both labeled with a 7 is completely irrelevant.  I do compare the 31 degree 8 iron to the 32 degree 7 iron.  I get more height with the 31 degree 8 iron and more spin with the 32 degree 7 iron.  That is down to the design.  The 31 degree 8 iron is an oversized SGI with a hot face and a low center of gravity.  The 32 degree 7 iron is a one piece muscle back with a thin sole. 

[chisag]

On 11/23/2022 at 7:34 AM, cnosil said:

This is one reason why I don’t personally like Cobra irons….they may go far but low,launch, low spin.

 

... I am a little surprised you would make a blanket statement like this. My Cobra MIM irons are equal in every way to the T100S played on tour. The only real difference is the MIM's have a slightly larger head so at least look more forgiving and they have a softer feel. But they most assuredly do not launch low with low spin. 


 

1 hour ago, Hook DeLoft said:

What I care about is launch and spin.  If I can hit a club 160 yards with enough height and spin to hold the green, then I'm happy.  I don't care what the number is stamped on the bottom.

 

...  I play MIM Tour and Forged Tecs and the FT's are about 1/2 club longer as well as having 5* gaps. The FT's spin a little less than the MIM's but still have enough to hold greens. For me, having an iron 1/2 club shorter that gives me the trajectory and covers my gaps with predictable spin is better than a little longer with larger gaps between irons costing me at least some distance control. I tend to be pin high more with the MIM's when swinging well and my short and long misses are closer than with the FT's. Obviously having 3 irons at 12* will yield closer grouped shots than 3 irons at 15*.  What number is on the bottom is irrelevant to me as long as all my gaps are covered. 

[GaryF]

Been shopping for new irons, and I guess I want it all, but agree with others that what is stamped on the club is irrelevant.  My 7i SS is around 78.  I used to carry a 7 (33*) 150 yds but now around 142.   I’m ok with some delofting as the lowest iron I plan to carry is a 6.  In demo-ing the jpx923 hm, I can carry  150 but trying different, lighter shafts to get better launch and spin numbers, which is really my higher priority.  I think the most critical is getting the optimal shaft.   I haven’t tested the HL yet.  If this all means carrying an extra wedge, that to me is a no brainer - I love hitting wedges. For anything longer than a 6i, so if I have to make a choice between a 5i or a W, W will always be my choice.  I’ll probably go with a reshafted TM 4h and add a ST Max 7w.  Longer term, I may add a 5w.  

Edited November 30, 2022 by GaryF

[cnosil]

12 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... I am a little surprised you would make a blanket statement like this. My Cobra MIM irons are equal in every way to the T100S played on tour. The only real difference is the MIM's have a slightly larger head so at least look more forgiving and they have a softer feel. But they most assuredly do not launch low with low spin. 
. 

It has probably become a personal bias that has some influence on my statements.  .  I do my best when testing for MGS to ignore the brand and model of the club we are testing,  but a couple of brands continually pop up as not being the best performers.   For me Cobra clubs stick out as being one of them and low spin low launch if often part of my subjective feedback.   Spin ultimately might be okay, but given how the release appears on the launch monitor it releases too much which might be tied to descent angle.   Maybe it would be better if I got them to a course and hit them, but they just aren’t my first choice to look at or try when I look at clubs.  Again personal bias.   

[chisag]

30 minutes ago, cnosil said:

It has probably become a personal bias that has some influence on my statements.  .  I do my best when testing for MGS to ignore the brand and model of the club we are testing,  but a couple of brands continually pop up as not being the best performers.   For me Cobra clubs stick out as being one of them and low spin low launch if often part of my subjective feedback.   Spin ultimately might be okay, but given how the release appears on the launch monitor it releases too much which might be tied to descent angle.   Maybe it would be better if I got them to a course and hit them, but they just aren’t my first choice to look at or try when I look at clubs.  Again personal bias.   

 

... Yea, it is a weird phenomenon that golf clubs can be objective and subjective at the same time. Personal bias enters into it more for some and less for others but I imagine it is always there. My only reason for the response was I have a personal bias for Cobra (mainly because they have the best hosel grind I have played) and since they are usually down the list of irons for many to demo, I didn't want the claim of "low launch and low spin" to go unchallenged. Everyone makes great irons these days so it is almost easier to find reasons to dislike an iron than reasons to like them and narrow down the choices. Don't like the look, the badging, the performance for your swing or in your case just don't like Cobra irons are of course fair opinions. While some of their drivers are lower launch and spin by design, Cobra's Players Irons offerings are not low launch, low spin. The Forged Tours, Fly Z+, Amp Forged and MIM Tour irons included. 

[cksurfdude]

Another golfer here who only uses the number on any club to correlate to "ok that's my NNN yard club that I need for this next shot" ... 

I try to keep in mind that the real objective in golf is hitting your targets as closely as your technique and skill allow.

(..to the OP I'd suggest don't get caught up in the distance challenge ego game...)

Fwiw the only time I'm concerned with the loft number of an iron is checking "what are the PW and the GW and do they fit in gap-wise with the 54° that I've become accustomed to playing..?"

 

On 11/23/2022 at 11:45 AM, ballhawk said:

Bottom line, play what makes the game easier and offers more enjoyment. 

Totally agree!!!

[Clayton]

I think that there's been a little disservice done to golfers with the new setups. I say this knowing my Mizuno 223 4 iron loft is 22* just like the loft on my other older set's 3 iron.  But that extra 1/2" of shaft and the "longer" trajectory in the 3i makes quite a bit of difference.  In the end, if they truly did the job they say they do - that is they just adjusted the loft to accommodate a change in COG, even with the same loft they shouldn't go the same distance - and guess what - they don't in the long irons. Where the problem for me is that while the 9i goes like an old 8i and the Pw goes like the old 9i, and the gap wedge is like an old PW... I'm missing that last long iron option. I guess it's sort of washed out with the loft progression companies have chosen to build them with, hoping you'll buy an extra hybrid or two or maybe another fairway wood. So I think they are taking golfer ego and making it look like they hit a PW extra long while also trying to sell another expensive wood or hybrid to us.

Another option for me vs playing an older set of irons might be to strengthen the Mizuno 223 4i loft 2*, the 5i 1.5*, the 6i 1*, the 7i .5*, then leave the scoring irons alone and see if that satisfies my want for a wider range from my irons. Maybe I'll even be more accurate with the 4i than the 3i since it's a club shorter in playing length.

[HAC]

On 11/28/2022 at 12:43 PM, Samsonite said:

I'm not sure if I'm only further muddying the waters here, but in the few reviews I saw online of the HL irons in direct comparison to the HM/Pro irons (Mark Crossfield in particular comes to mind), it seemed to me that the HL 7 iron, despite being 2.5 degrees weaker, went the same distance as the HM/Pro 7 iron, but the way it got there was completely different.  The HL is significantly chunkier in comparison, adding mass down low to both increase ball speed and get the ball up in the air as quickly as possible.  Again, I may have misunderstood this, but I remember being very, VERY impressed that there wasn't really a distance penalty when using the HL, but the height that the ball got made it a really easy-to-hit, desirable club for a whole lot of players.  In fact, it was so impressive, it made me want to go demo them, even though my swing-speed would be outside of the range of "suggested" players to use them (I believe if your 7-iron is sub-80 mph, Mizuno thinks you should be in the HM/Pro line).  

The more I play, the more interested I am in consistency rather than pure distance - I genuinely don't care what club gets me 150 yards, as long as I can do it every time.  

I thought what I have seen is that the HL is shorter - including the NPG episode when they discussed trading distance for height.  If you are correct that the two clubs fly the same distance my guess is that, all else being equal (like weight of the shaft, length of the shaft, etc.), the one with the additional loft would be easier to hit, but I would be surprised.

I agree with your last point.  With a driver, I prefer more distance (assuming no loss in accuracy).  But, with irons, etc., I want a club that gets me to the yardage I want every time and I don't really care what number the manufacturer puts on the bottom of the club.  Sometimes I think we would be better off with symbols on the clubs rather than numbers.

[Peejer]

I've advocated for a long time that comparison's between Brand A and Brand B aren't relevant, due to the loft disparities.

I think a much more interesting bit of data might be yards per degree of loft.  That might be more useful than saying Brand A is the longest 7-iron, when in fact the loft is 2-3 degrees stronger.  Or perhaps ball speed would be meaningfully beneficial to know.

 

My two cents...

-- Peejer