Mandatory tee boxes?

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

How many of you play hybrid tees? 

There was a course in Halifax which had a lot of forced carry. It was a fun course and quite a challenge. There were some holes the back tees really weren't that far back and made the hole more enjoyable. Others the backs were just ridiculous so we played one up and it made for a better yet still challenging experience.

Maybe a better way of asking the question is taking a normal course, what length do you look for in a course? Or is your preferred length. 

There are a few courses i play that have this on the scorecard. It’s usually a mix of the white and blue tees. For those courses is the 3rd and 4th tee box with the tips being 5th tee box. If it’s not on the scorecard I really don’t mix them up

it depends on how I’m feeling that day and who I’m playing with. I’ll usually rotate rounds between white, combo and blue. Basically having to play the course differently each time I play it. 

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

How many of you play hybrid tees? 

There was a course in Halifax which had a lot of forced carry. It was a fun course and quite a challenge. There were some holes the back tees really weren't that far back and made the hole more enjoyable. Others the backs were just ridiculous so we played one up and it made for a better yet still challenging experience.

Maybe a better way of asking the question is taking a normal course, what length do you look for in a course? Or is your preferred length. 

All of our courses have 5 tees and men' league allows use of either blue/white or white/gold. I can and have played blue on all 4 courses but unless I'm cranking drives, it makes a handful of holes tough to reach in regulation.  The b/w combo best matches the yardages (5800-6100) I'd been playing in MT and when we were wintering in Yuma, but I'm finding the white to be more fun on these courses and that is likely because their more challenging in other aspects.  

The only thing I don't like about using combos is that it's one more thing to keep track of .

 

[Stuka44]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

How many of you play hybrid tees? 

There was a course in Halifax which had a lot of forced carry. It was a fun course and quite a challenge. There were some holes the back tees really weren't that far back and made the hole more enjoyable. Others the backs were just ridiculous so we played one up and it made for a better yet still challenging experience.

Maybe a better way of asking the question is taking a normal course, what length do you look for in a course? Or is your preferred length. 

I in fact made my own hybrid tee boxes, scorecard for one course, because I wasn't going to play from 6500 anymore.  Play up on a 3-5 holes and play it around 6100.

[Zugger01]

On 12/24/2022 at 12:30 PM, Noble 90 golf said:

I feel this should be the standard!

I like this idea to a certain extent. With working at a College Golf Course where college students play for free, people who never have played golf before play the tips. I think the diagram should be used as a recommendation not a requirement. But I think the idea is good. My question is how does this course enforce it? Do they require you to give them your Hdcp?

[Kenny B]

4 minutes ago, Zugger01 said:

I like this idea to a certain extent. With working at a College Golf Course where college students play for free, people who never have played golf before play the tips. I think the diagram should be used as a recommendation not a requirement. But I think the idea is good. My question is how does this course enforce it? Do they require you to give them your Hdcp?

LOL...  The first thing I thought; people who have never played golf before don't have a handicap... so looking at the recommended tee options, no handicap could be interpreted as 0 handicap!!!  

[chisag]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

How many of you play hybrid tees? 

There was a course in Halifax which had a lot of forced carry. It was a fun course and quite a challenge. There were some holes the back tees really weren't that far back and made the hole more enjoyable. Others the backs were just ridiculous so we played one up and it made for a better yet still challenging experience.

Maybe a better way of asking the question is taking a normal course, what length do you look for in a course? Or is your preferred length. 

 

... I do a combo tee at both my summer and winter courses. But only several holes. 439, 412 and 426 are all uphill off the tee so little to no roll. If you can carry it 240, you can reach the flat and get some roll out. So moving up and carrying it 220-225 not only lets me reach the flat, I get some roll so total can be a 50yd difference. Having a mid iron in depending on the wind compared to a hybrid or 5 wood when I can't see the green make the hole much more playable but still challenging. Another 430 yd par has a downslope about 230 off the tee so I play those tees instead of moving up. 

... That said in a normal winter it can get hard and fast so I do get some uphill roll on those long par 4's and I play them without moving up. 

[funkyjudge]

On 12/27/2022 at 7:36 PM, GaryF said:

By your description, one minute per four golfers is saved per hole which equals 18 minutes per round.  Somewhere in your math, you converted 15 sec/Golfer/hole to 1 min/golfer/hole which converts to 72 min per round.  Struggling to add slows the game too (jk!). 

Another aspect that slows the pace are having one or more players hit multiple, multiple mulligan tee shots, and looking for lost balls. We have a limit of 3 min for a lost ball.    
 

There should be no mulligans, period! Provisional balls are a different story, and if there is the slightest shred of doubt, golfers should ALWAYS hit a provisional ball if they think that their ball may be OB, lost or in a penalty area. Otherwise, there are no re-dos in golf!!!

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

There should be no mulligans, period! Provisional balls are a different story, and if there is the slightest shred of doubt, golfers should ALWAYS hit a provisional ball if they think that their ball may be OB, lost or in a penalty area. 

A provisional ball isn't allowed if a ball is in a penalty area;  it is against the rules 

Rule 18.3  Provisional Ball

a. When Provisional Ball Is Allowed

If your ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time you may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance.

[funkyjudge]

Just now, cnosil said:

A provisional ball isn't allowed if a ball is in a penalty area;  it is against the rules 

Rule 18.3  Provisional Ball

a. When Provisional Ball Is Allowed

If your ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time you may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance.

True; I knew that. My mistake in the original post (now corrected).

[chisag]

4 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

There should be no mulligans, period! Provisional balls are a different story, and if there is the slightest shred of doubt, golfers should ALWAYS hit a provisional ball if they think that their ball may be OB, lost or in a penalty area. Otherwise, there are no re-dos in golf!!!

 

... Com'on Doug you are starting to sound like Party Pooper Dave.   Most of the higher index Am's I play with will take a "mulligan" on the first hole and first hole only. I compare it to moving ball out of a divot. While I take pride in the challenge most I play with just move to out. 

[CarlH]

9 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Com'on Doug you are starting to sound like Party Pooper Dave.   Most of the higher index Am's I play with will take a "mulligan" on the first hole and first hole only. I compare it to moving ball out of a divot. While I take pride in the challenge most I play with just move to out. 

ahhhhh yes...the old Breakfast Ball on #1 tee box.  

I agree with you on the divot challenge.  It's fun to complain about the lie then hit it on the green

[funkyjudge]

11 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Com'on Doug you are starting to sound like Party Pooper Dave.   Most of the higher index Am's I play with will take a "mulligan" on the first hole and first hole only. I compare it to moving ball out of a divot. While I take pride in the challenge most I play with just move to out. 

Sorry Sam, but that is one thing that bugs me more than most anything else in golf (other than slow play). Generally the shot that is hit using the “mulligan” is worse than the first shot and the golfer ends up hunting endlessly for both balls, which are often hit into the woods or some other ugly place.

[chisag]

1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

Sorry Sam, but that is one thing that bugs me more than most anything else in golf (other than slow play). Generally the shot that is hit using the “mulligan” is worse than the first shot and the golfer ends up hunting endlessly for both balls, which are often hit into the woods or some other ugly place.

 

... We all have our personal opinions on golf so I get it Doug. I have also seen the above scenario but it is very rare. Mostly I see someone slice a ball onto the range off the first tee and take a "mulligan" instead of dropping near the range and taking a chance on getting hit with a range ball. There is also desert rocks shrubbery to the left just off the first tee and most that top/pull a in there with their first ball don't even look and just plays their second. Almost all the desert plants and trees have sharp thorns and it will rip your clothes or give you a good scratch and I would rather someone play a mulligan than get out their ball retreiver and try to fish the ball out of the thorns. Occasionally someone tops their first tee shot 50-100 yds and hits another ball, easily picking up the first ball.

... But luckily our first fairway is pretty wide and the 2nd fairway is adjacent on the left side and any pull or hook ends up there, so mulligans are not the norm but they don't bother me after a horrendous tee shot on the first tee only. I have played with only a few that take multiple mulligan and it is very annoying. 

[vandyland]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:32 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

How many of you play hybrid tees? 

Like @stuka44 I also made my own Hybrid tees. It is a fairly tight treelined course that plays a little too long at 6,100 yds and then a little too short at 5,500 yds so I made a hybrid set that is 5,900 yds. Mainly, I had one hole that I always struggled on because I can't hit a reliable fade so I was faced with this shot every time I played...(the red lines are all OB and the fairway tilts towards OB which is a creek that runs left of the fairway where the redlines are) the trees on the right are tall enough to prevent trying to draw it (my shot shape) or even hit it straight. If I lay back at the fat part of the fairway it is 180+ uphill to get to the green. 

So instead I made it a hybrid tee and play from here (see below) where I can take a 5 iron over the single tree right and still hit my draw or a straight shot. Basically the course designer is asking a question that I cannot answer. For a better player, this is a great challenge because it forces you to hit a fade, I just cannot hit a fade (on demand). So I have given up and admitted defeat. It makes this hole not play quite as intended but makes it more fun for me, personally. 

 

Also, for the record, I have no animosity towards or intent to change the opinion of @chisag. I always enjoy his posts and I think that we view the game differently and that is fine. One of the things I like about this board is people generally stay very respectful here and there are tons of ways to enjoy the game. I don't want to come across like I have "figured it out" or "I know better" because I don't. I just found a way that I like to play and sometimes I can get a bit evangelical about it. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by vandyland

[DaveP043]

34 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Like @stuka44 I also made my own Hybrid tees.

Do you post scores for handicap here?  If so, how do you calculate (or estimate) the CR and Slope?

[Zugger01]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Do you post scores for handicap here?  If so, how do you calculate (or estimate) the CR and Slope?

Some courses have a hybrid course on the GHIN app. Mine does. With our 3 Sets of Tees, Blacks/Whites/Reds, we have 2 combos, Dimond Course(Blacks/Whites) and Circle Course(Whites/Reds).

[DaveP043]

18 minutes ago, Zugger01 said:

Some courses have a hybrid course on the GHIN app. Mine does. With our 3 Sets of Tees, Blacks/Whites/Reds, we have 2 combos, Dimond Course(Blacks/Whites) and Circle Course(Whites/Reds).

I understand that, and I always look for those sets of ratings.  But @vandyland said he has created his own hybrid set, so presumably his set of tees does not have a published rating.  Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping has a table to adapt for different yardages, but that is ONLY to be used by the Handicap Committee, with the Approval of the Authorized Association when there are TEMPORARY Changes to the golf course.  So its a fair question, when someone plays his personal choice of different tees, how does he post his scores for handicap?   In my view, the only right thing to do under the rules is not to post.

[vandyland]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Do you post scores for handicap here?  If so, how do you calculate (or estimate) the CR and Slope?

This doesn't come up that often as I just starting doing this but I have done hybrid tees on a few resort courses and I have always used the appendix f in the rules of handicapping (which, albeit, are for "temporary changes"). So this table,

 

 

[Jim Shaw]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I understand that, and I always look for those sets of ratings.  But @vandyland said he has created his own hybrid set, so presumably his set of tees does not have a published rating.  Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping has a table to adapt for different yardages, but that is ONLY to be used by the Handicap Committee, with the Approval of the Authorized Association when there are TEMPORARY Changes to the golf course.  So its a fair question, when someone plays his personal choice of different tees, how does he post his scores for handicap?   In my view, the only right thing to do under the rules is not to post.

agreed, just don't post. 

[vandyland]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

how does he post his scores for handicap?   In my view, the only right thing to do under the rules is not to post.

I get that. In my defense, if it matters, I don't belong to a club, I don't play in tournaments or men's leagues and I don't gamble (I don't play for money in sports under any circumstances). But you are correct that there a few things at play here that may not be obvious but are advantageous to me:

(1) I choose which holes I want to be the hybrid holes, not the golf course management, so I can do this to favor my game (which I think I did do on the example I posted above)

(2) I get options off the tee now that others don't have, which is covered by the rating and slope to some degree but not entirely

Honestly, if I wanted my handicap as low as possible (not really something I care about) then I would play from as far back as possible. I am a bad putter so getting extra shots to my handicap from farther away is generally helpful. 

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, vandyland said:

This doesn't come up that often as I just starting doing this but I have done hybrid tees on a few resort courses and I have always used the appendix f in the rules of handicapping (which, albeit, are for "temporary changes"). So this table,

Right, for Temporary Changes, when approved by the Authorized Association, and done by the Handicap Committee.  Its really not intended to be done by each individual as he or she sees fit.  The biggest issue I see is for a Handicap Committee when reviewing scoring records, they could be seeing a dozen different non-standard ratings for play on a single course on a single day.  

 

[vandyland]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Right, for Temporary Changes, when approved by the Authorized Association, and done by the Handicap Committee.  Its really not intended to be done by each individual as he or she sees fit. 

Makes sense. I will save $40 from now on from not having an index. When someone asks me what my handicap is I can say what I used to say which is "pride."

Or, if I just play 2-3 holes from the senior tees and the rest from the general men's tees, should I just use the senior rating/slope? Then my handicap would be slightly lower than it should be which would be on the vanity cap side which really only hurts me. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by vandyland

[LICC]

On 1/29/2023 at 11:16 AM, chisag said:

 

... We all have our personal opinions on golf so I get it Doug. I have also seen the above scenario but it is very rare. Mostly I see someone slice a ball onto the range off the first tee and take a "mulligan" instead of dropping near the range and taking a chance on getting hit with a range ball. There is also desert rocks shrubbery to the left just off the first tee and most that top/pull a in there with their first ball don't even look and just plays their second. Almost all the desert plants and trees have sharp thorns and it will rip your clothes or give you a good scratch and I would rather someone play a mulligan than get out their ball retreiver and try to fish the ball out of the thorns. Occasionally someone tops their first tee shot 50-100 yds and hits another ball, easily picking up the first ball.

... But luckily our first fairway is pretty wide and the 2nd fairway is adjacent on the left side and any pull or hook ends up there, so mulligans are not the norm but they don't bother me after a horrendous tee shot on the first tee only. I have played with only a few that take multiple mulligan and it is very annoying. 

The theory is that on the first ball, you are ending your round after one swing then starting a new round. If you aren't playing for money or competition, it seems plausible. I've also gone out in groups for money games where we allow the first ball mulligan if we didn't have time to warm up on the range or if the range didn't allow you to hit driver.

[chisag]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Also, for the record, I have no animosity towards or intent to change the opinion of @chisag. I always enjoy his posts and I think that we view the game differently and that is fine. One of the things I like about this board is people generally stay very respectful here and there are tons of ways to enjoy the game. I don't want to come across like I have "figured it out" or "I know better" because I don't. I just found a way that I like to play and sometimes I can get a bit evangelical about it. 

 

... Not only the great thing about MGS but golf in general. I can't think of any other sport where you and I could play side by side utilizing different rules or even no rules at all and have a great time. I want the best challenge I can face. That means using all my clubs while facing a bunch of "normal" holes along with several easy holes and several hard holes. As long as I can reach those hard holes with a hybrid I will challenge myself, but the day I can't reach the longer par 4's with a hybrid I am moving up a tee box. That's what produces the best combination of fun and a challenge and I applaud you for finding a way to play courses that make you evangelical about it.   

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, LICC said:

The theory is that on the first ball, you are ending your round after one swing then starting a new round. If you aren't playing for money or competition, it seems plausible. I've also gone out in groups for money games where we allow the first ball mulligan if we didn't have time to warm up on the range or if the range didn't allow you to hit driver.

 

... Because of two back surgeries I rarely warm up because standing in one spot and swinging is a recipe for back issues. Swinging and walking is really my only choice. So occasionally I would like a first tee mulligan but just can't bring myself to do it. Saving par after a really bad tee shot on the opening hole is a challenge I enjoy. None of my playing pards will do it either but we get paired up with others that do and I never have a problem with it. 

[Stuka44]

So why don’t more golfers move up? Why hasn’t a great idea like Tee It Forward caught on more than it has? Because behavioral changes in consumers and operators require a lot of time, effort and intervention. National advertising helps create needed awareness, but is insufficient "alone" to overcome the inertia of ego, convenience and conformity, which golfers – virtually all of them – willingly admit stand in the way.  National Golf Foundation on Play it Forward 10 years later. I added "alone".

 The problem with slow play, is that it is talked about like it is "someone else's" problem to fix.  The problems with slow play is that the causes are all interconnected, and make no mistake.  It is learned behavior.  And it is learned, tacitly allowed, and passively propagated by all of us who play the game at a decent level. The change will come when we put ourselves out a little bit.     Very few people if any decide they are going to take up golf, go to the range all by themselves initially, and then decide to go to a full size golf course, again all by themselves, and completely ignorantly, and obliviously stick a tee in ground from the "men's" tee at 6300 yards or farther.  They learned this, or were guided there, by conversation, observation, or expectations, of outside forces, and nobody intervened to say, NO!

No organization, or individual course, "Can mandate this".  It must come from those of us who know better, to be willing to put "our challenge" of the game aside, on occasion, and tee it up with your nephew(who was just learning, and 20 years old) from the 2nd tee, with his dad and other uncle, because he was young and was feeling embarrassed to tee off up with them.   So I teed it up with all of them, several times("We all played the easy T together"), and he quickly learned that the game was indeed hard enough to begin with from 5700 yards.  Nobody likes being told "you suck and should play two tees up from me".  But if before you take your buddy who is looking to you, knowing you are someone shoots in the 80, or 70's, for guidance at getting back into the game, or is new to the game, or you know he is not "really" very good, to the course you let him know, Yes I will be more than happy to help you, but the very first thing I "have" to do "too help" you is we are both going to go play up.  You then explain all the reasons, why its necessary, and that we'll assess the game, and move back when appropriate.  I doubt  anyone looking to us for guidance, is going to say, "well then I guess you aren't going to help me, because I play from 6300 yards or longer or not at all". And honestly if this is his attitude; then,  let him struggle and quit right!!  The problem is that until we change this attitude, making it the norm that ALL  new players, start up front and move back as you get better, "tips guy who quits, is just replaced by another entity, who learns that the game is just to easy for him from a shorter distance". It is  through us, instructors, and organizations changing this attitude, that we will reduce, and hopefully one day eliminate "tips guy", from reappearing in other forms, MOSTLY US!

The sooner everyone involved with this game also realizes that 85% of all people who come and go or play regularly, aren't EVER going to play in any sort of sanctioned event, or use a Handicap(what most golfers believe is an average of all scores) for ANYTHING, other than very generalized comparison.  Not ever for   giving or receiving strokes, and sitting around after their weekend round boasting about their NET 1 stroke victory over their buddies,  after shooting 110 gross.   These people(and I include myself as one) need to be actively encouraged by all, AND I HEAR THE OUTRAGE COMING, to ignore the rules.  Every hazard that you didn't clear, has a drop area on the other side of it, "because it doesn't matter".  If you can't play out of the sand, don't, "because it doesn't matter".   If you shoot 120 from 6300 yards, guess what the new Cobra driver may give you 15 extra yards, but that isn't really going to help you from 6300 yards, what will 99.99 percent improve your score is playing the course from 5200 yards, "because it doesn't matter".  We need to have it be the norm that when you break 100 from 5700-6000 10 times, you are now consistent enough to play longer.

The sooner we all realize that we bear a part of the responsibility for slow play(in one way or another), and realize that it is our responsibility, not someone else's to change it, the sooner it actually will begin to improve.  We have to encourage all players of any level that aren't playing sanctioned events, "that it doesn't matter", and mean it!!  Eliminate the veiled condescension, glances, remarks, and innuendo that embarrass people, and make them feel inferior about moving up. 

This is just my opinion though.  

 

 

[Stuka44]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Do you post scores for handicap here?  If so, how do you calculate (or estimate) the CR and Slope?

Like Vandy, I don't play sanctioned events.  In 30 years of playing have never sat around comparing NET scores with anyone I've played with after a weekend round.  One of those things, I don't concern myself with. For me  it's  a rough number for comparison purposes.  For the record for MY stat tracking, I estimated it.

[CarlH]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

So its a fair question, when someone plays his personal choice of different tees, how does he post his scores for handicap?   In my view, the only right thing to do under the rules is not to post.

My regular group has decided that this month, because of the very wet course and winter golf anyway, we would play 2 holes on each 9 from the tees forward of our regular tees.  The discussion came up about handicap posting and I suggested (and it was agreed upon) that we do NOT post our scores to GHIN, but we do continue to track the points earned from play since we're all playing the same.  (Group accumulates points over the year based on gross scores on Saturday events to determine the top 20 players for a RYDER CUP format weekend).  I have no problem with anyone playing hybrid tees, but if there is no established slope/rating assigned, posting to GHIN for competitive handicap calculations should be avoided.  Now, if one doesn't compete in handicap tournaments and only wants a base line handicap for informative info, fine and dandy, do as you see fit.  JMO.

[chisag]

... Considering the USGA estimates about 90% of everyone that plays golf doesn't keep a handicap, most of these posts are meant for 1 out of 10 that play golf. My guess is if only public golfers were estimated, that figure would be closer to 99%. 

[vandyland]

56 minutes ago, chisag said:

Considering the USGA estimates about 90% of everyone that plays golf doesn't keep a handicap

And what percentage of that 10% that does keep a handicap, how many don't ever accept a "gimmie", uses the same ball make and model throughout every round, marches back to the tee and re-tees when they cannot find their ball...etc. 

I am a big proponent of not accepting gimmies but it is awkward because I play by myself as a single a lot and get paired up with other groups. I generally make some awkward announcement on the first green but every 3rd or 4th round I will invariably get someone who will pick up my ball and toss it back to me. ROUND INVALIDATED. As someone who has missed my share of two footers, I know how important it is to putt all those out. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by vandyland