Mandatory tee boxes?

[Stuka44]

43 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I am a big proponent of not accepting gimmies

That's why, I get my own scorecard and keep my own score.  In fact our whole foursome does.  Like you don't bet, and everyone who plays with us, our foursome can fluctuate, from time to time.  Any friend, acquaintance  or other person who joins us for the first time , for a weekend round is told right up front. "You keep your own score, we are just here for fun, your score is yours, you count what you want, don't count what you want, this is not a USGA sanctioned event, it doesn't matter one bit to any of us!!".  And the announcement from me...to anyone playing with us for the first time, "I putt everything out, so don't worry about feeling bad like you should have given me a gimmie."

Edited January 30, 2023 by stuka44

[DaveP043]

6 hours ago, vandyland said:

Or, if I just play 2-3 holes from the senior tees and the rest from the general men's tees, should I just use the senior rating/slope? Then my handicap would be slightly lower than it should be which would be on the vanity cap side which really only hurts me. 

 

3 hours ago, CarlH said:

My regular group has decided that this month, because of the very wet course and winter golf anyway, we would play 2 holes on each 9 from the tees forward of our regular tees.

For each of these, the best way to post scores within the rules is to consider those holes as simply not played (for posting purposes only).  For handicap posting, record net par for those holes, and post as normal.  This is in Rule 3.2 of the Handicap Manual.  As long as you're playing 14 holes from a single set of rated tees, I believe you're in compliance with the Rules. And remember, the score for handicap might be different than your score for the competition with your friends.

And just to be clear, I don't care what anyone does as long as it doesn't impact other players.  My personal feeling is that if you choose to keep an official handicap, you really should follow the rules when posting scores.  

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

I will invariably get someone who will pick up my ball and toss it back to me. ROUND INVALIDATED.

No, you should report the score that you most likely would have made, the round isn't invalidated.  I agree, its impolite for them to pick up your ball, but you do have the option of putting it back down and putting it for score.  

[vandyland]

@DaveP043 I have always appreciated your understanding of the rules. If only we could get you walking with any group that includes Patrick Reed, the professional game might be in a better place. 

16 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

For each of these, the best way to post scores within the rules is to consider those holes as simply not played (for posting purposes only).  For handicap posting, record net par for those holes, and post as normal.  This is in Rule 3.2 of the Handicap Manual.  As long as you're playing 14 holes from a single set of rated tees

The way I set it up, I play 3 holes from the senior tees, so 15 from the "mens" tees. 

[DaveP043]

8 hours ago, vandyland said:

@DaveP043 I have always appreciated your understanding of the rules. If only we could get you walking with any group that includes Patrick Reed, the professional game might be in a better place. 

The way I set it up, I play 3 holes from the senior tees, so 15 from the "mens" tees. 

There's really nothing an Official could have dine differently with Reed, without complete video review at the time the Official did everything correctly.  And if you want to post scores within the handicap rules, go ahead and post the 15 holes you play from a rated set, and for the other 3 holes post par plus any applicable handicap strokes.  Something else to think about, its easy for a club to get a rating for a hybrid set, just decide which holes are played form each tee, then contact the state or regional association.  They keep all the rating info for each hole, so it can easily be calculated.  It might be worht asking the course to set something up.

[revkev]

On 12/26/2022 at 9:14 AM, tony@CIC said:

I really don't care which tees my partners play from as long as they play fast. Play from the tips or play from the forward tees - but lets finish in 3 1/2 hours. 

This would be my criteria - play that set that lets your group get done in 3 1/2 hours - 

I will buy 4 but if it's taking longer than that someone is playing the wrong set of tees.

[tony@CIC]

4 minutes ago, revkev said:

This would be my criteria - play that set that lets your group get done in 3 1/2 hours - 

I will buy 4 but if it's taking longer than that someone is playing the wrong set of tees.

One thing that the "Tees" solution doesn't take into account is the rest of the game., i.e. short game/putting. I have a friend up north who will walk around the pin at least once, walk off the distance,  look twice, then readjust his ball several times and then still miss the hole. Drives us all crazy. and I hate playing with him 

[chisag]

49 minutes ago, revkev said:

This would be my criteria - play that set that lets your group get done in 3 1/2 hours - 

I will buy 4 but if it's taking longer than that someone is playing the wrong set of tees.

 

 

... This just rarely happens on public golf courses in my experience. We have the 1st or 2nd twilite times Mon-Fri and on the very rare occasion that nobody is in front of us we play in 4 hours or just under. Same 4 of us mon/wed/fri then 2 of us are joined by others on tues/thur. We play social golf and all 4 are interested in shooting our lowest score and we play ready golf, are deadly serious when addressing our shots but between we talk and enjoy each others company and the sunshine. 3 of us walk and 1 with hip issues rides. We are accustomed to a "natural pace" for our course and that is right around 4 hours +- 5 minutes like clockwork. 3.5 would be rushing, especially with one pard being 80 and walking. 

... Could we play faster? Sure we could but all of us are retired or semi retired and have no place else to be. So keeping a steady pace I think we bridge all aspects of playing golf at the suggested pace of play. Occasionally being a public course the round can take 4.5 hours and we are OK with that because we have to be, although it certainly drags a little. Anything over 4.5 hours seems way too long and the 5 hour rounds are brutal but thankfully very rare. 

... We are all different and we all have our own ideal pace of play but 4 hours has been established for a reason and it might be a little slow for some and a little rushed for others but after playing this game for 40 years it seems like the best compromise for all. 

[DaveP043]

20 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

One thing that the "Tees" solution doesn't take into account is the rest of the game.,

There's nothing that can take into account all factors.  Driving distance, handicap, bad habits, bad short game skills, it all adds up.  I still believe that Handicap is one of the more reasonable factors to base tee GUIDELINES on, but pace of play enforcement is really the only thing that can keep play moving at a proper pace.  And we all know how spotty enforcement really is.

[PeterHenric]

On 12/25/2022 at 2:55 PM, chisag said:

 

... How far/accurately you hit your tee shot should be the only qualifier. And even then that takes into consideration a reasonably repeatable swing. I have stated this so many times but most courses are designed to be played with specific clubs. Meaning an undulating shallow green with a deep front bunker is meant to be approached with a short iron or mid iron at worst. If you have to hit a hybrid or fairway wood you are playing the wrong tees for that given hole. Conversely some longer par 4's have nothing in front with a large green designed for a fairway wood to roll on. I think all courses should have one or 2 holes like this as it adds a challenge and you can use every club in the bag. But even an open front is useless if you can't reach it with a good shot using a hy/fw wood. 

... One of my playing partners is a long hitting 80 yr old. Long hitting as in 180-200 with his good drives (occasionally longer with a good drive downhill) and 160-180 with poor drives. But several holes over 400yds from the gold (senior) tees and uphill to around 220, are just past his range. I talked him into moving up to the forward tees on those holes and it has increased his enjoyment. Yes he hits lots of hybrids and fairway woods and if he played every hole from the forward tees he would enjoy it even more but one step at a time I guess. 

... At 69 I can play the tips at my home course but I won't be shooting under par and I would be hitting fairway woods on at least 5 of the par 4's. That means getting up and down more than reaching greens which would get old quick. Ideally I like a challenge with plenty of holes I can reach with a mid iron, some a short iron and some a long iron or hybrid. The day I can't reach the longer par 4's from the 2nd in tee box with a hybrid, is the day I move up a tee box. 

I know this is an old post but I agree with all of it. 

You shouldn't only be hitting driver wedge nor should you be hitting driver hybrid into every hole. I used to have this VERY false sense of pride and played tee boxes that were too long and I was hitting hybrids into the majority of holes regardless of how well I hit my tee shot. Also hitting Driver, Hybrid, wedge in on some Par 4's was rough. Moving forward and choosing the appropriate tee box changed the game for me.

In the weekly MGS virtual golf tournaments, there are several players that are much better than I am but hit it much shorter. Making me play short and them play long wouldn't make sense.

[revkev]

16 hours ago, chisag said:

 

 

... This just rarely happens on public golf courses in my experience. We have the 1st or 2nd twilite times Mon-Fri and on the very rare occasion that nobody is in front of us we play in 4 hours or just under. Same 4 of us mon/wed/fri then 2 of us are joined by others on tues/thur. We play social golf and all 4 are interested in shooting our lowest score and we play ready golf, are deadly serious when addressing our shots but between we talk and enjoy each others company and the sunshine. 3 of us walk and 1 with hip issues rides. We are accustomed to a "natural pace" for our course and that is right around 4 hours +- 5 minutes like clockwork. 3.5 would be rushing, especially with one pard being 80 and walking. 

... Could we play faster? Sure we could but all of us are retired or semi retired and have no place else to be. So keeping a steady pace I think we bridge all aspects of playing golf at the suggested pace of play. Occasionally being a public course the round can take 4.5 hours and we are OK with that because we have to be, although it certainly drags a little. Anything over 4.5 hours seems way too long and the 5 hour rounds are brutal but thankfully very rare. 

... We are all different and we all have our own ideal pace of play but 4 hours has been established for a reason and it might be a little slow for some and a little rushed for others but after playing this game for 40 years it seems like the best compromise for all. 

Honestly I was being a bit facetious - I think this discussion is a good 19th hole one but I've been playing far too long to think there's an easy way to settle it.  Handicap as suggestion is nice but I couldn't handle the penultimate tees at a Robert Trent Jones course - they are going to be around 6,800 yards long and I drive it 225 - not a fun day at all.  You have to use your best judgment. 

 

Four hours is a reasonable goal but this time of year in places like AZ and FL it is not likely - even at private clubs.  I've learned to live with it although I'm wondering what I'm paying for - it's far easier to see the group that's causing the mayhem at a private club.  For what we pay there should be a ranger or even an assistant pro that goes out and moves the offending group along.  In Florida the issue is clearly that people come down from up north.  Their games aren't in mid-season form and we are at sea level so the ball will not carry as far here as up there.  It's pretty dry so driver may go as far but irons will not.  When they fall short there is a lot of sand and water.  So generally, they are playing a set of tees farther back than they need to hit their normal shots and then instead of a fairly simple chip or pitch they are in a trap or dropping behind a hazard after a ball search.  

 

I know that TPC Tampa used to have advice on its scorecards that suggested that visitors should consider moving up a set of tees due to course conditions that make play more difficult.  The starter would ask where people were from and if they were from out of town suggest the same thing - they wouldn't force it, just suggest it.  There is another pace of play issue there but at least it made the front nine enjoyable.

[vandyland]

13 hours ago, PeterHenric said:

You shouldn't only be hitting driver wedge nor should you be hitting driver hybrid into every hole.

This is true. There are a few factors that can influence that and even though I play at 6,000 yds with an average drive of 260-270, I don't hit Driver + Wedge into every hole but I play a course that forces me to take less than driver on a number of holes due to (lack of) width, hazards, doglegs etc. On paper, a flat 340 yd par 4 sounds like it should be driver + wedge but isn't (at least not for me) because I can't hit a reliable 25 yd fade:

Instead it turns into 5i + 8i which isn't crazy but you wouldn't know that looking at the scorecard. We have several holes like that. I must admit, I may like strategy more than golf somedays (especially when I am hitting it poorly and strategy is almost irrelevant). @PeterHenric, I see a lot of your rounds are at angel park in LV so I am going to scope out that golf course and see what yardage I would guess I would play it at. It looks pretty cool!

 

 

[revkev]

18 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

One thing that the "Tees" solution doesn't take into account is the rest of the game., i.e. short game/putting. I have a friend up north who will walk around the pin at least once, walk off the distance,  look twice, then readjust his ball several times and then still miss the hole. Drives us all crazy. and I hate playing with him 

Is his name Bob?

[fixyurdivot]

Our community golf superintendent just released a "help pace of play" reminder and tee selection was based on driving distance... perhaps an indication of a new approach to the old index based standard? 

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Our community golf superintendent just released a "help pace of play" reminder and tee selection was based on driving distance... perhaps an indication of a new approach to the old index based standard? 

I don't think its all that new, I've read a number of "systems" that are based on distance of one kind or another.  And they are appropriate to some extent, and have limitations when applied to the huge group of individual players.  I'll suggest a few.  Many people think they hit the ball much further than they actually do, or base their choice off of their career drive instead of some kind of average.  A long-hitting high-handicapper playing a longer course will (probably) have more problem with his (inherently longer) second shots than a short-hitting better player from those same tees, playing even longer second shots.  I'm not opposed to this type of guideline, as long as players use some judgement in applying the guidelines.  In the long run, I agree with @revkev

 

6 hours ago, revkev said:

I think this discussion is a good 19th hole one but I've been playing far too long to think there's an easy way to settle it