Mandatory tee boxes?

[tony@CIC]

52 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Tee box colors seem to be regional. We had lots of green or black tips, white for "mens", gold/silver for "seniors" and red for forward in the Midwest. Here in Phoenix most are black tips, then silver/white "mens" then gold "seniors" and forward of course still red. I really wish they would change the forward tees to anything but red. I think all courses should permanently retire red tees as too many men with fragile egos just won't play from the "ladies" tees. In fact getting rid of any description like "mens" and "seniors" or "ladies" would be a great idea. 

Our club up north has green for the forward tees - but as you mentioned the scorecard designates them as the ladies tees. Here in Fl. our club has 6 tee boxes and the scorecard also has the combos shown on the card. FYI the shortest tees are orange and add up to about 3400 yds. 

 

[Jim Shaw]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Much like golfers swings and snowflakes where no two are identical, mandatory tees are really difficult to pin down. Every course is different so playing a new course is always a challenge to pick the right tees. If I move up a tee box on my home course it will drop my scores by 3-5 strokes. Unlike your tree lined course, there are several bunkers I can fly from 15/20 yards closer and 2 greens I can drive when I usually lay up with an iron. There are also several long holes that my best drives land into the top of an upslope and get some roll where my slight misses hit further down the upslope and get little roll. From the next tees up my landing area is now on the flat and I get more roll. The difference between a hy/long iron approach and a mid/short iron approach is more birdies. 

... That said, I talked my 80 yr old pard into moving up from the senior tees to the forward tees on 5 of the longer par 4's and he can now reach those greens with two really good shots when he couldn't from the senior tees. He will occasionally par one of those holes but more often than not he still misses the green so the only difference is a shorter pitch/chip instead of a long pitch or wedge so his scoring has remained pretty much the same. 

... And I can repeat it til I am blue in the face but the best way to play golf is to play the tees that allow you to play the hole the way it was designed, and that means length off the tee is critical. Still any suggestions would require a reasonably repeatable drive in both distance and direction. Many mid index and certainly almost all high index players are erratic off the tee. They can hit a 230yd drive in the fairway one day and miss the fairway hitting it 200 the next. Hard to have a suggestion for inconsistency. 

... In the end unless you are in a competitive league or betting with your buddies, being honest about your ability and keeping pace is all that matters for choosing your tee box. Playing the appropriate tees should give you the most enjoyment as well as a fair challenge but playing a tee box a little too long or too short for your ability won't make much difference if you keep pace. Handicap, how far you drive or average scores are all good "suggestions" but as many have said, no system works for everyone and a suggestion is just a good starting point. 

... I would much rather play a new course I find a little too short the first time than playing it too long. But I also have no problem moving around tee boxes either. If most of the holes look appropriate on the scorecard but one par 4 is a 470 yds, I am moving up to 449 for that hole. Combo scorecards are my favorite because they already take that into account but you can always make your own combo with just one or more holes. 

 

I have found, in the past 15 years or so, the conversation about which tee boxes golfers play has changed from when I started playing in the 1960's and competitively in the 1970's. It was almost a "right of passage" to get (as Dave said) strong enough and enough distance to play from "the tips". Many many times I would hear, "lets go to "x" course and play the tips". 75% (kitchen math) would have a terrible time because the tips were way too much golf course for them but having said that some of my most memorable rounds were played from the tips. Having said all that, I feel the stigma is going away, the conversation now tends to be "what set of tee's will you have the most enjoyment from". And now we address the front tees as "forward" tees, and coaches are coaching juniors to tee off from wherever then feel their students can hit most greens in regulation (I think this stems from Earl Woods letting Tiger tee off closer to the greens and moving back as he got stronger and longer and this makes total sense to me. 

 

[Jim Shaw]

There is a disconnect in this thread between where you tee off and pace of play, pace of play is a totally different conversation and although where you tee off "could" have some influence on pace of play, I feel where you tee off is a direct result in the enjoyment of the day. 

[funkyjudge]

3 minutes ago, Micky G said:

Players should be recommended to play from tees that allow them to get round in under 3 hours 50 minutes.  This allows all players to enjoy themselves.  Move up if falling behind.

 

 

Great point! Unfortunately, what playing the correct tees will “allow” the players to do and what the actual result will be is usually still quite different. Just like playing behind two foursomes of pros, every one of whom had painful pre-shot routines and lengthy putt reading and alignment regimens resulted in waiting on every single shot for my foursome and a round that took almost six hours a couple of weeks ago, the result of playing from the correct set of tees is unlikely to cut those slow players’ playing time to five hours, much less 3:50.

[excourse]

Perhaps the tees aren't as much of an issue as the greens are. I'd propose that once on the green you get to lift, clean and line up your ball once, and only once. Continue to putt until your in the hole. Saving a guesstamated 15 seconds per golfer per hole would possibly shave an hour and 12 minutes from an 18 hole round per foursome. Thoughts?

[chisag]

11 hours ago, Micky G said:

Players should be recommended to play from tees that allow them to get round in under 3 hours 50 minutes.  This allows all players to enjoy themselves.  

 

... Like George Carlins observations about drivers "Ya ever notice that anyone driving slower than you is a MORON and anyone driving faster than you is a MANIAC"  The amount of time it takes to play 18 holes can be ideally different for any players. Personally right around 4 hours seems perfect to me. We walk and this allows us time to move, talk and enjoy our surroundings and focus on our shots for the few minutes that takes. I am OK with faster and slower to a point as 3:45 can border on rushing for a 4some and 4:15 can start to drag. 4:30 - 5 hours always seems to be too long. 

... That is me and the next guy/gal can feel differently. I also feed the Roadrunners and squirrels on my home course. I only eat organic Tosi and ProBars when playing so feeding them nuts and fruit is a treat they would find in nature. It takes a little longer to play those holes but always catch up by the next tee. I could see some getting very frustrated watching me feed the wildlife instead of getting to my ball. But of course my next shot is usually on the green or in the fairway and I have caught up by the time we start putting. 

... Given all that, I think 4:00-4:15 hours is a good compromise time. Most rounds at my muni are 4-4:30 during the week and anything slower that happens occasionally can ruin a twilite round that ends on 16 or 17. 

[Jim Shaw]

so, are we on to "pace of play?" awsome, let's get at it lol.

1-be ready to hit when it is your turn.

2-keep up with the group in front of you..

easy peasy....

 

[Tyler Palmer]

The thing I think is really the key to pace of play is playing ready golf.  That really doesn't have anything to do with where you tee off from, but making sure you're not wasting time getting to your ball, etc.

[Tom the Golf Nut]

For the past 15 years I played 18 holes in 2 hours and 15 minutes. No problems here!  

[tony@CIC]

3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Like George Carlins observations about drivers "Ya ever notice that anyone driving slower than you is a MORON and anyone driving faster than you is a MANIAC"  The amount of time it takes to play 18 holes can be ideally different for any players. Personally right around 4 hours seems perfect to me. We walk and this allows us time to move, talk and enjoy our surroundings and focus on our shots for the few minutes that takes. I am OK with faster and slower too a point as 3:45 can border on rushing for a 4some and 4:15 can start to drag. 4:30 - 5 hours always seems to be too long. 

... That is me and the next guy/gal can feel differently. I also feed the Roadrunners and squirrels on my home course. I only eat organic Tosi and ProBars when playing so feeding them nuts and fruit is a treat they would find in nature. It takes a little longer to play those holes but always catch up by the next tee. I could see some getting very frustrated watching me feed the wildlife instead of getting to my ball. But of course my next shot is usually on the green or in the fairway and I have caught up by the time we start putting. 

... Given all that, I think 4:00-4:15 hours is a good compromise time. Most rounds at my muni are 4-4:30 during the week and anything slower that happens occasionally can ruin a twilite round that ends on 16 or 17. 

Sounds like 4-4:15 for walking makes sense at your course. However, our course in FL doesn't lend itself for walking as the the course is spread out and the walk between some holes could be as much as 1000 yds. Hence everyone uses their own golf cart and plays 'ready golf'. 

[tony@CIC]

3 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

There is a disconnect in this thread between where you tee off and pace of play, pace of play is a totally different conversation and although where you tee off "could" have some influence on pace of play, I feel where you tee off is a direct result in the enjoyment of the day. 

I'd offer that they are related. The correct tee box is not the only thing that affects 'pace of play' but it sure can be a contributing factor. 

[Jim Shaw]

3 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

I'd offer that they are related. The correct tee box is not the only thing that affects 'pace of play' but it sure can be a contributing factor. 

related, yes, but possibly 2nd cousin once removed lol

[excourse]

5 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Sounds like 4-4:15 for walking makes sense at your course. However, our course in FL doesn't lend itself for walking as the the course is spread out and the walk between some holes could be as much as 1000 yds. Hence everyone uses their own golf cart and plays 'ready golf'. 

Are you in the Villages? It's the same situation here, on the 9 hole exec. courses.

[tony@CIC]

16 minutes ago, excourse said:

Are you in the Villages? It's the same situation here, on the 9 hole exec. courses.

We're in Kings Point-in SUn City Center,  just south of Tampa. both of our 9's start out by the proshop, however, the other 9 is about 1 1/2 miles away  (but still within our community). 

[tony@CIC]

23 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

related, yes, but possibly 2nd cousin once removed lol

I guess if someone can't get on the fairway it doesn't matter which tee box they hit from - unless the tee box is on the fairway (our forward tee - orange is). 

 

[DaveP043]

5 hours ago, excourse said:

Saving a guesstamated 15 seconds per golfer per hole would possibly shave an hour and 12 minutes from an 18 hole round per foursome.

Let's do the math.  15 seconds per golfer per hole, 4 golfers, that's 1 minute per hole per group, or 18 minutes total.  That's not nothing, but its a long way from "an hour and 12 minutes".  

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

There is a disconnect in this thread between where you tee off and pace of play, pace of play is a totally different conversation and although where you tee off "could" have some influence on pace of play, I feel where you tee off is a direct result in the enjoyment of the day. 

 

2 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

related, yes, but possibly 2nd cousin once removed lol

They are a lot more related than that. Play tees too far back and par 4s become par 5s errant shots get into more trouble (of course that is dependent on course design). Not able to get the ball to the fairway and having to hack out of the rough between tee shots or if there is a forced carry and one can’t make it.

Playing the wrong tees can lead to bad decisions and that leads to longer playing times per hole. I’ve played with strangers that did this exact thing and it was a long day. 

[excourse]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by excourse

[funkyjudge]

40 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

They are a lot more related than that. Play tees too far back and par 4s become par 5s errant shots get into more trouble (of course that is dependent on course design). Not able to get the ball to the fairway and having to hack out of the rough between tee shots or if there is a forced carry and one can’t make it.

Playing the wrong tees can lead to bad decisions and that leads to longer playing times per hole. I’ve played with strangers that did this exact thing and it was a long day. 

Absolutely true, RickyBobby! Unfortunately, I have seen those types of things, especially not being able to make it across forced carries or not being able to get to the fairway with the tee shots, and it becomes painful and a time drain for the rest of the foursome….and every group behind them.

[GaryF]

6 hours ago, excourse said:

Perhaps the tees aren't as much of an issue as the greens are. I'd propose that once on the green you get to lift, clean and line up your ball once, and only once. Continue to putt until your in the hole. Saving a guesstamated 15 seconds per golfer per hole would possibly shave an hour and 12 minutes from an 18 hole round per foursome. Thoughts?

By your description, one minute per four golfers is saved per hole which equals 18 minutes per round.  Somewhere in your math, you converted 15 sec/Golfer/hole to 1 min/golfer/hole which converts to 72 min per round.  Struggling to add slows the game too (jk!). 

Another aspect that slows the pace are having one or more players hit multiple, multiple mulligan tee shots, and looking for lost balls. We have a limit of 3 min for a lost ball.    
 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

Absolutely true, RickyBobby! Unfortunately, I have seen those types of things, especially not being able to make it across forced carries or not being able to get to the fairway with the tee shots, and it becomes painful and a time drain for the rest of the foursome….and every group behind them.

And on the opposite end when people are playing shorter tees they start thinking they can drive most of the par 4s with that big all out swing. Unfortunately that turns into lots of errant shots, lost balls, or playing out of the trees. 

[excourse]

2 hours ago, GaryF said:

By your description, one minute per four golfers is saved per hole which equals 18 minutes per round.  Somewhere in your math, you converted 15 sec/Golfer/hole to 1 min/golfer/hole which converts to 72 min per round.  Struggling to add slows the game too (jk!). 

Another aspect that slows the pace are having one or more players hit multiple, multiple mulligan tee shots, and looking for lost balls. We have a limit of 3 min for a lost ball.    
 

My post was admittedly poorly worded. The scenario I was referring to was the 15 or more seconds it takes each golfer to mark, lift and align each putt. We rarely see one putts, often two and far to often 3. Each one taking a significant amount of time. Marking, cleaning and aligning each of those putts takes a significant amount of time per golfer. I stand my 1 minute per golfer guesstimate, but not the manner that I originally posted it. I appreciate the feedback, play well.

[Jim Shaw]

a couple of interesting scenarios regarding pace of play, so what is the solution? I would suggest education, educate all golfers on whatever the expectations are for the particular course they are playing on. Private clubs are probably easier to monitor, public courses that make their budget based on the amount of play they get may be a little more flexible ie. not monitor the pace of play, private clubs usually monitor it through the membership base, the members will call slower players out. So I guess there is no concrete solution to pace of play in regular play, as Dave PO43 knows, there are rules and regulations in place for pace of play in tournaments. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

a couple of interesting scenarios regarding pace of play, so what is the solution? I would suggest education, educate all golfers on whatever the expectations are for the particular course they are playing on. Private clubs are probably easier to monitor, public courses that make their budget based on the amount of play they get may be a little more flexible ie. not monitor the pace of play, private clubs usually monitor it through the membership base, the members will call slower players out. So I guess there is no concrete solution to pace of play in regular play, as Dave PO43 knows, there are rules and regulations in place for pace of play in tournaments. 

The easiest way to improve pace of play especially at public courses is to 1) make the pace of play policy known to each golfer. This can be done with a posting in the pro shop and by the starter before each group goes out to the first tee. 2) have marshalls/rangers on staff who understand golf and pace play and where bottlenecks can occur on the course  3) enforce the pace of play policy.

This works because I play several courses that all do it and there is rarely and issue of pace of play. 

[Kenny B]

58 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The easiest way to improve pace of play especially at public courses is to 1) make the pace of play policy known to each golfer. This can be done with a posting in the pro shop and by the starter before each group goes out to the first tee. 2) have marshalls/rangers on staff who understand golf and pace play and where bottlenecks can occur on the course  3) enforce the pace of play policy.

This works because I play several courses that all do it and there is rarely and issue of pace of play. 

At our muni pace of play could be faster, but is reasonable for a public course where we have golfers of all abilities and a course that has less than wonderful lies in the rough.  We don't have a starter except on Fri-Sun during the peak months.  That starter is only there until mid-morning and then becomes a marshal.  Pace of play was never really a issue before covid on Mon-Thu, but now it's worse because the course is full all day long.

Part of the problem is course design; the first 2 holes are fairly easy and short; drivable by longer hitters who don't play the tips, so tee times are backed-up immediately.  Then #3 is also fairly short par 4 with water all down the left to the green, steep grassy mounds on the right (and many slicers hit over these mounds to the #2 teeing area and then have blind shot over water), bunkers left and right, and a difficult green to putt... used to be the #1 hcp hole until last year.  I've seen 5 groups on this hole!!  

We do have large clocks on #7, #10 and #13 tees that should what your time should be at that point based on your tee time, so you can tell if you are ahead or behind.  However, most people don't pay attention to it or don't care.   The marshal does an OK job; in many cases the slow groups are the Men's gangsome and they go out early in the morning.  The Ladies gangsome goes out ahead of them, because the clubhouse knows they are faster!!  When behind the Men, pace picks up after #15 as the groups of Men start finishing.

[RickyBobby_PR]

41 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

At our muni pace of play could be faster, but is reasonable for a public course where we have golfers of all abilities and a course that has less than wonderful lies in the rough.  We don't have a starter except on Fri-Sun during the peak months.  That starter is only there until mid-morning and then becomes a marshal.  Pace of play was never really a issue before covid on Mon-Thu, but now it's worse because the course is full all day long.

Part of the problem is course design; the first 2 holes are fairly easy and short; drivable by longer hitters who don't play the tips, so tee times are backed-up immediately.  Then #3 is also fairly short par 4 with water all down the left to the green, steep grassy mounds on the right (and many slicers hit over these mounds to the #2 teeing area and then have blind shot over water), bunkers left and right, and a difficult green to putt... used to be the #1 hcp hole until last year.  I've seen 5 groups on this hole!!  

We do have large clocks on #7, #10 and #13 tees that should what your time should be at that point based on your tee time, so you can tell if you are ahead or behind.  However, most people don't pay attention to it or don't care.   The marshal does an OK job; in many cases the slow groups are the Men's gangsome and they go out early in the morning.  The Ladies gangsome goes out ahead of them, because the clubhouse knows they are faster!!  When behind the Men, pace picks up after #15 as the groups of Men start finishing.

One of the problems is that courses don’t want to upset their customers so they don’t enforce any policy or establish one. Most golfers also don’t think they are slow so when someone tells them they are, they get upset.

imo if courses established and enforced policies they wouldn’t lose any customers and more would be happy to play there.

I drive an hour plus to play courses that are good courses, fun but tough and enforce a pace of play. I would much rather go out of my way to play these courses then spend 5+ hours at a course closer to me

[tony@CIC]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The easiest way to improve pace of play especially at public courses is to 1) make the pace of play policy known to each golfer. This can be done with a posting in the pro shop and by the starter before each group goes out to the first tee. 2) have marshalls/rangers on staff who understand golf and pace play and where bottlenecks can occur on the course  3) enforce the pace of play policy.

This works because I play several courses that all do it and there is rarely and issue of pace of play. 

A public course my wife and I use to play here in Florida had GPS and the clock in the GPS screen indicated where you were in terms of pace. It would show you're either ahead or behind the target time frame. Initially it seemed to work well and we were finished in just over 4 hours. As covid hit and the course became more crowded it seems like they adjusted the time, so you'd be finishing 18th and it showed you're spot on but when you checked your watch it was a 5 hr. round.  

Our club up north (private) doesn't enforce pace of play for either members or guests - I think for fear of upsetting them. 

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Our club up north (private) doesn't enforce pace of play for either members or guests - I think for fear of upsetting them. 

 

... It is one of the problems playing twilite. Most of the courses I play here in Phoenix have rangers in the morning but rarely any in the afternoon. Since most courses are sold out all winter it won't make any difference and in summer so few are on the course it isn't worth the effort. That said it is pretty rare to see rounds over 4.5 because most twilite golfers understand they are facing a sundown time limit. But about once a month some yahoos get the first twilite time and play at their own pace for 5 hours and nobody behind them finishes. 

[Stuka44]

I think they are just trying to be politically correct.  To be clear IMO anyone who has an average score of 87 (15hcp) or lower can play a course from any tee box they wish.  It won't be as "enjoyable" as the suggested tee box use indicates.  You will have longer shots into greens.  But what you will not turn into is a beginner again.  You won't suddenly be unable to get the ball off the ground, and hit one worm burner after another.  You will still be able to play at the pace you play from a 600 yard shorter tee box.

This is clearly an attempt to suggest to those who are shooting  on average 95-110 and over to play the course shorter.  Because these people playing the course longer will be forced because of distances left to the green, or being on the next fairway over, or in the trees, to be pulling 3-woods, and 4 irons, when they have trouble getting an eight iron off the ground, and will substantially slow play.

This is another area where it depends on the individual, and more importantly those playing with them to be willing to step up and tell someone  that the tee box they are playing the course from is slowing the group down.  And probably most important that anyone who takes someone out to learn how to play golf needs to begin this process from the front tees, which will be easiest at first.

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

It won't be as "enjoyable" as the suggested tee box use indicates.  You will have longer shots into greens.  But what you will not turn into is a beginner again.  You won't suddenly be unable to get the ball off the ground, and hit one worm burner after another.  You will still be able to play at the pace you play from a 600 yard shorter tee box.

As someone who has played with 15 handicaps and even some 8-10 caps from the tips around 7000-7200 or even a tee box shorter at about 6750 the pace slows way down. Par 4s become par 5s, par 5s become par 6 or 7 and par 3s all get over 200 yards. I’ve scored 10 strokes higher from those tees and have seen the 8-10 shoot some bad scores. To say that it doesn’t change is as pretty naive about the game and pace of play. 
 

i played in a scrabble where every par 4 we had between 4 and 6 iron on approach shots with drives that were 250-275