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Are we getting fit wrong? Crossfield thinks its a good possibility.


GolfSpy_BOS

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Just watched this today and Mark makes some really good points about fitting and lessons and how he feels they should be intertwined.  

What do you all think? I think he makes some great points here and depending on you end goal we may be getting fit all wrong.  

 

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This brings so much into perspective for myself. I had my very first fitting in 19 years this September at GolfTec. I paid for a full bag fitting and they had to split it up into two sessions at different times of the day. No problem. So when I got there, I could tell nobody wanted to be at work. We start with the driver and we go through the Stealth first, then the rogue, then Mizuno, then the TSR3. Immediately he pointed out that I don't produce enough trajectory and I should hit up on the ball. So he changes the settings to D3 with weight at heel position 2 and he says I'm using a HZRDUS White??? Whatever that is. I hit that driver well but my numbers weren't there. I hit the T200 irons and P790 as well as the apex pro and Mizuno. I was told that your number are where they need to be and you can choose whichever you prefer. So I use a Callaway X2 Hot with a Graphite Design Tour AD G 60 Stiff. I make those tweaks to my swing and I am immediately getting into the territory of the TSR3 Driver which was 298 carry and 313 avg. Same with my irons, I wasn't hitting as far, almost 20 yards according to flight scope. But my numbers were where they wanted them. I just needed to regrip the shafts and lengthen by 1/2". They have Project X Rifle 6.0 in them. Now granted my irons should be 2 degree upright but that is probably some of the distance difference right there. I redid my wedges which was a good call but never giving me advice that would improve my game, just providing a commission. I really appreciate when people bring this to light and show that their industry will be deceptive. I just wish we all had money for a flight scope hahah

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3 hours ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

Just watched this today and Mark makes some really good points about fitting and lessons and how he feels they should be intertwined.  

What do you all think? I think he makes some great points here and depending on you end goal we may be getting fit all wrong.  

 

I mean, to be fair, this is just another way of putting one of Crossfield's central thesis' forward when dealing with custom fitting that he's been banging for years. That's not a shot at Mark by the way, it's just if you're a constant viewer of his stuff, it's a theme that runs throughout all his tests and fitting videos, but as new people continue to come it makes sense to keep putting this video out to keep it top of the algorithm.

If you're not learning something or improving something from the person doing the fitting, they're doing themselves a disservice by just trying to sell you tech, and you're doing yourself a disservice by not questioning more. I liken it to when I did my putter fitting way back when I got to test Stroke-Lab and got put in a putter that was so wrong for me because I just let the fitter do his thing. It's why I'm happy with the relationship I have with John at CC for my stuff.

Is it pricey to get what I need from there, it is! Do I leave with a greater knowledge of why I do what I do and a couple of ideas on how to improve that, I do as well! Don't be passive in the process, take charge, make the person show you why or how or explain it to you and learn something.

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It is a interesting take. I think I have a good few thoughts on it. Both good and bad and think he has some good points. 

My main take away and one that I agree with is that a fitting should be a learning experience and a lesson as well as a fitting. I believe a proper fitter should be able to have the knowledge to cover much of both. 

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2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

It is a interesting take. I think I have a good few thoughts on it. Both good and bad and think he has some good points. 

My main take away and one that I agree with is that a fitting should be a learning experience and a lesson as well as a fitting. I believe a proper fitter should be able to have the knowledge to cover much of both. 

At my last 'real fitting', he gave me a quick lesson in how to reduce the steepness of my swing with my driver. 

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@GolfSpy_BOS This topic has kinda been stuck in my head since you posted it. Driving into work this morning I was thinking about several times I have been fit and where the fitter would have said why club X or Y was good or bad for me (being it is going straighter, ball speeds are up or whatever else) however rarely did they say why said club was fit to me due to my swing tendencies. Granted I often will tell them I often hit down on the ball a little more than I should (talking driver) so I lean on lower spin heads often with a little less loft, but I would think that is the other part. A fitter should or could say Club X works for you because it gives you tighter dispersion, greater ball speed and it is set at these settings because you do X and Y which this club has been set to help negate. If you improve that swing function then we will need to do this with the club so it will still fit your swing and help you produce those numbers. 

Maybe the part that Crossfield left out (I would have to rewatch) is the educational part of a fitting. Yes a fitting can and should somewhat also be a lesson/fitting, but the educational value of one is huge. It is why TXG has taken off so much as they provide excellent educational value for their consumers (both in stores and on youtube). 

I think that is it, I really am intrigued by this topic so I'm sure I'll have more to talk on it. 

Maybe @Golfspy_Lukes can pin this one to his fitting section as well. 

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The fitter that I use is also a teacher.  There is a line to get an appointment with him and folks come from all over the state to see him.  One that I trust and have used for many years.  Has over thirty five years experience and is certified by Titleist and most major brands.  Time for new clubs, I go see David.  He will advise me as to whether I actually need the newest on the market or not.  He is a keeper as a fitter. 👍 👍👍👍👍 

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18 minutes ago, ChuckZ said:

The fitter that I use is also a teacher.  There is a line to get an appointment with him and folks come from all over the state to see him.  One that I trust and have used for many years.  Has over thirty five years experience and is certified by Titleist and most major brands.  Time for new clubs, I go see David.  He will advise me as to whether I actually need the newest on the market or not.  He is a keeper as a fitter. 👍 👍👍👍👍 

This is the ideal scenario.  I suspect it is also not very common.  

Regarding Crossfield's comments, the key statement/question is "do I get fitted or do I take lessons?"  I believe club fitting has largely consumed the golf community at the expense of lessons.  All the new technology, glitzy studio environments with drawers and racks filled with every make/model of heads and shafts, buckets-o-data, and dare I say quick-fix illusion, has folks filling time slots at fitting bays everywhere.  We all know fitted clubs do not correct swing flaws. Getting fitted for clubs is relatively easy and fun for most.  Getting lessons with someone critiquing your golf swing, and putting in the time to make those often not so easy changes, is work... grind it out, work.

I was fitted the first time to update 35 year old technology (PE2's to G410's). Pretty soon afterwards, a second time to get out of steel shafts due to my left shoulder and lesser extent left elbow pain. Neither fitter offered any suggestions on swing mechanics but then I was there for a club fitting and not swing lessons, so no real surprise.  Would it have been helpful that one or both of these guys had also been my instructor, knew my swing issues and was factoring that into which heads and shafts were pulled.... hmmm, good question, I don't know 🤷‍♂️.

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12 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is the ideal scenario.  I suspect it is also not very common.  

Regarding Crossfield's comments, the key statement/question is "do I get fitted or do I take lessons?"  I believe club fitting has largely consumed the golf community at the expense of lessons.  All the new technology, glitzy studio environments with drawers and racks filled with every make/model of heads and shafts, buckets-o-data, and dare I say quick-fix illusion, has folks filling time slots at fitting bays everywhere.  We all know fitted clubs do not correct swing flaws. Getting fitted for clubs is relatively easy and fun for most.  Getting lessons with someone critiquing your golf swing, and putting in the time to make those often not so easy changes, is work... grind it out, work.

I was fitted the first time to update 35 year old technology (PE2's to G410's). Pretty soon afterwards, a second time to get out of steel shafts due to my left shoulder and lesser extent left elbow pain. Neither fitter offered any suggestions on swing mechanics but then I was there for a club fitting and not swing lessons, so no real surprise.  Would it have been helpful that one or both of these guys had also been my instructor, knew my swing issues and was factoring that into which heads and shafts were pulled.... hmmm, good question, I don't know 🤷‍♂️.

I believe that most who are going for fittings know what they are getting into and are not looking for golf fixes.  Maybe an improvement in their equipment.  I have a coach that I play golf with that tweaks my game as I go along and that helps me, even with my 17 handicap.   I will never be a single handicap golfer again, but do want the best equipment I can get for my level of play.  A good fitter in some cases will recommend lessons before recommending new clubs.  I appreciate your comments.  There are certified fitters and their are retailers, who I would never go to.  The retailers are in it for the buck and could care less about the golfer, plus charging high end prices for their fittings  and upcharges on shafts golfer do not need.  Whereas the customers could most likely need lessons.  I see this in our market rather often.      

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22 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

My main take away and one that I agree with is that a fitting should be a learning experience and a lesson as well as a fitting. I believe a proper fitter should be able to have the knowledge to cover much of both. 

 

 

... While I have no problem with a good fitter offering a suggestion, I disagree with giving a lesson during a fitting for most. If you are a beginner and don;t understand the fundamentals of a golf swing then sure, a mini lesson isn't a bad idea. But for most golfers here is the problem. If I gave a student something to work on after the first lesson and the knowledge of exactly why we were doing it, 99% of the time they had it completely wrong by their next lesson. Continuing to do it wrong is why so many quit after a lesson or two with a new instructor. 

... As an example, let's say the student is just twisting and has both open shoulders and hips through impact because they swing over the top with almost all upper body and no lower body action. I may have them attempt to lean back away from the target line on the downswing, forcing them to use their lower body, create some seperation between shoulders and hips and helping to get the club more on plane. Now that's a lot to fix and giving them all that information is mental overload. But just sticking with the one thing we work on in the lesson under my watchful eye, I can try and help them move their head back, instead of twisting and moving it forward. It is never easy. But if they work on it between lessons (or worse don't work on it at all) the next lesson we start with "lets see some swings moving the head back and leaning away from the target though impact". It is very rarely what we worked on last lesson because feel isn't real, any change is dramatic for the student, what they have always done creeps in much more on their own and they are usually caught somewhere between what they do and what we are trying to do. So no mans land.

... I would compare a fitter giving a lesson to a pharmacist changing a prescription and recommending changing whatever caused the prescription to be issued. "You need to change your eating habits and start cardio exercises, so I am going to give you a prescription that doesn't take into account the bad food you eat (and will continue to eat) and a few websites that sell ellipse machines". All great suggestion but it doesn't help at that moment, especially knowing there is a very good chance they won't make those changes after eating a few salads and then stopping at McDonalds for a couple Big Macs and some fries with an XL soda. For the vast majority getting fit and receiving a lesson is a recipe for confusion and failure. Worst case scenario is being fit to what they should be doing instead of what they are doing, because again for the vast majority, once they get on the course they will almost always revert to what they were doing.

... Now someone already working with an instructor, or someone interested in a change because they know they are inconsistent, a swing tip isn't a bad idea at all. And if those being fit want a mini lesson that's cool too. But a really good fitter should fit what you bring them and if an opportunity presents itself to make a tweak, like moving the ball position with their driver 6 inches forward without "changing" a swing that's ideal. But trying to change how they swing isn't. 

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The golf swing ain't rocket science or anything that complex... It's just been rather badly taught and it's hard to incorporate what we "learn we should do" into what we do... that old "feel is not real".  So yeah, I totally agree with Crossfield on this one (and many other things... he tends to be one of the most interesting YT coaches). You'd be much better served by being "anti-fit" than by being fit. Unless, that is, you're competing at the very top level and already have a great command of what you do and search for every minute fractional gain you could scrap.

The rest of us? Get something very neutral, club-wise, so that you'd be most likely to get a desirable flight only if you do deliver neutral conditions. The rest of the swing? You'll figure it out yourself with or without the help of a coach by just trying to get what you want (the ball going where you want it to go).

When you get fit for "help" and "correction", you stick to your mistakes and never improve (actually, improving your swing will make your shots worse!).  Sure, they might hide the problems, mitigate the consequences of bad swings. However, improving on centredness of strike if you can't feel the difference between a heel, a toe, a low, a high, a flushed strike, might prove a bit challenging. Getting path and face neutral and matching when all balls fly relatively straight might prove difficult. If you "early extend" (don't like the expression, but you get it) and raise the handle massively, a very upright club with help you keep the ball straight with your fault, a very flat club will make the fault so bad you'll be forced to figure out a way to deliver the shaft on a better "plane".

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To be honest, I think most custom fitting companies are largely useless outside of driver fitting. The indoor environment is just too unrealistic and they don't carry enough stock to do a proper fitting. They would actually be much better if instead of stocking a few clubs from every different manufacturer they just stocked every club (entire sets, not just 7 irons) from a single manufacturer.

I went to get a wedge fitting and all they had were a selection on 60 degree wedges, with limited bounce options. Despite being at a driving range with a nice practice green and bunker, we never went outside, just indoor shots. He then tried to tell me that this is how Vokey recommends fitting. Couldn't even do wedge gapping because they didn't stock 50, 54, 56 degree wedges. For the 50% premium on each wedge if I purchased (I didn't), there is no way I would even be able to tell if they were better than my current wedges.

At the end of the day to get a really good fitting there is only two options.

1. Go to somewhere like Taylormade The Kingdom or Titleist Performance Institute.

2. If you belong to a good club with a good proshop that has a wide variety of demo club options you can take on course or to the practice range.

 

Fitting centers are basically just retailers who are adding an extra percentage on top of the price.

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I’d had a set of irons for about 25 years before I got custom fitted for some irons about 3 years ago, indoors using GC quad - it was the first time I’d ever been fitted for clubs and I was sceptical so didn’t end up buying the clubs. 

A month or so later, I went to a different pro for a fitting outdoors on the range and they identified the same swing spec, so I felt a little more convinced by the process (and it made more of a difference to be able properly see the ball flight and carry).

I love my clubs and have a lot of confidence in them (much more than my old set).

However, over the past year or so, I think my swing has changed significantly (I now go left instead of right) so am probably due a refitting!

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On 12/27/2022 at 10:50 AM, GolfSpy_BOS said:

Just watched this today and Mark makes some really good points about fitting and lessons and how he feels they should be intertwined.  

What do you all think? I think he makes some great points here and depending on you end goal we may be getting fit all wrong.  

 

No Laying Up just posted their fitting from TPI and one of the things Soly kept saying was this was the first time he ever had a good fitting: One where it was education, fitting, and lessons all in one

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I mentioned on my earlier post 'real fitting' and not quite a lesson during that fitting. First off 'real fitting' definition: I've been fit at Club Champion, PGASS and the fitter I have the most confidence in at Windmill Golf Center in Macedonia , Ohio. A big difference between the latter and the other 2? WIndmill fitting 'rooms' are open so you're hitting balls onto the range vs. into a screen. Guess it's just me but I hate hitting into a screen - maybe I'm thinking that the ball is going to bounce back? The fitter there, made a couple of slight changes to my grip and stance so not a 'real lesson' but one that had an impact (no pun intended). Club Champion fitter made no recommendations to my position, grip, or alignment but tried to fix by making shaft $$$$ changes. The worst fitting I ever had was this past summer at PGASS from a 'fitter' who said he's been fitting people for 30 yrs. His recommendation was scrap my driver and use a 5 wood off the tee. FYI, I was there to see if I could get incremental distance improvement with newer drivers over my SIM 2 MAX D. FYI my drive is a slight draw with PAVG distance just under 200 yds. on a SS of avg 80 mph. 

1. Where you're coming from makes a huge difference, knowledge, experience and what's currently in your bag. I bought my son a fitting as a Christmas gift. He plays occasionally with a 10+ year old box set based on price (the cheapest he could find) and has a desire to get better - I think primarily to beat me at the game (😊). He's a long hitter but not very accurate. I know the fitter at Windmill will not only help him with dispersion issues via new clubs but will also not only recommend slight swing changes but also recommend lessons. The latter is something I can't convince him to get.  My son has no fitting experience, never had a decent set of clubs. He's a prime candidate for a great fitter. 

2. This thread  and Mark's video reminds me of an old quote I've probably mentioned too many times on this site: "when you're a hammer you see everything as a nail". I believe that there's a small population of fitters that can and do double as a teacher but my experience has been fitters try to fix issues with equipment. That doesn't work all the time. I The fitter I mentioned at Windmill did recommend slight changes but more importantly recommended a specific instructor that could help me. 

 

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:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

:CaddyTek: - 4 Wheel 

EZGO TXT 48v cart
:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

:1590477705_SunMountain: And  BAG Boy

Golf Balls: Vice Pro Plus 

2020 Official Teste:SuperSpeed: Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

2019 Official Tester :ping-small:  410 Driver

2018 Official Tester :wilson-small: C300

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5 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

Guess it's just me but I hate hitting into a screen

 

... Amen brother, you are not alone! I think right brain left brain has something to do with this. If I hit balls at an outdoor range I am playing golf, hitting a specific shot to a specific target. Hitting into a net I play golf swing, not golf. As an artistic right brain player, I need the artistry of a golf balls flight to the target and see it land. Hitting indoors into a screen just doesn't work for me. I am envious of those that can swing just as well indoors as out. 

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Driver:     :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 10.5* ... AD-IZ 6SR
Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Hybrids:    :taylormade-small: SIM2 Hybrid 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R hy
Irons:        :cobra-small: 4-9 MIM Tour ... Steelfiber i95R
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 46*/50*/58* LB ... Steelfiber i95R
Putter:      :bobby-grace-1: 6330 LTD Edition ...  33.5"
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour '22

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The idea of a fitter giving me swing advice or suggesting swing changes scares me. I’ve worked with my coach for over 2 years; and everything we worked on in the 1st year was set up and grip related. He stopped doing fittings as Covid reduced the inventory he had access to. I recommend to all my friends to get lessons over fittings. I’ve had 15+ lessons over the last 4 years: went from a 16 handicap to a 2 handicap. I’ve never met anyone whose handicap has dropped significantly due to a custom fitting alone. I’m a believer in custom fittings(I use club champion) but I wouldn’t attribute any of my improvements to fitting until this past year. 

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Driver - Cobra LtDxLS

3 Wood - Ping g410 LST

2iron - Titleist U505

Irons - Ping i59

Wedges - Vokey Sm9

Putter - Mizuno Mcraft IV

 

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4 hours ago, Micah T said:

The idea of a fitter giving me swing advice or suggesting swing changes scares me. I’ve worked with my coach for over 2 years; and everything we worked on in the 1st year was set up and grip related. He stopped doing fittings as Covid reduced the inventory he had access to. I recommend to all my friends to get lessons over fittings. I’ve had 15+ lessons over the last 4 years: went from a 16 handicap to a 2 handicap. I’ve never met anyone whose handicap has dropped due to a custom fitting. I’m a believer in custom fittings(I use club champion) but I wouldn’t attribute any of my improvements to fitting until this past year. 

Again I don't think it is so much they should be a full on lesson. That is why there are coaches. However there should be that educational aspect during a fitting as to this is why a golfer is being fit into the product vs here this is your new club. An explanation of you need this length because of X you need this loft or lie angle I think is important so they know if they make certain swing changes the equipment will be equally effected. Or maybe it is someone who hits down on the driver like many. So if they get fit into a low spin head at 8 degrees, but then make some swing changes to lift that angle of attack it will then mean they need to change the head settings or the whole driver. 

  • Like 3

 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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When I went to get fitted at Precision Golf the fitter said he didn't want to step on my coaches toes but made suggestions about certain things in order to make the fitting work best. I think fundamentally though people have a repeatable issue, whether it be face control, strike point, AoA miss etc. and you can fit for that.

You see here Simon is talking about the effects of the club feel on the swing, not really a 'lesson' but definitely a discussion on what is 'correct' and what they (player and fitter) are trying to achieve.

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Irons - Titleist 620MB/CB - Nippon Modus 125S

Wedges - Mizuno T22 Raw 51*/08* S Grind, 55*/09* D Grind 59*/09* C Grind - Modus 125 Wedge

Hybrid - Ping G425 4 lofted all the way down - Tour AD DI 75 Stiff

Fairway - Ping G425 max 5w - Mitsubishi blue 70 stiff

Driver - Ping G25

Putter - Odyssey #7

Fitted at Precision Golf https://www.youtube.com/@PrecisionG

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some great takeaways from me on this subject. seems like fitting and lessons are as personal as each golfers swings, which makes total sense to me. Since the cross section of players on this site vary quite a bit ie. low index's to mid index's to higher index's the comments vary quite a bit. So far I tend to focus on the lower index comments however when Micah T says he has gone from a 16 index to a 2 index I take notice. My curiosity peaks and I want to know how in the heck he improved so much, if it is directly from proper fitting of "tools" that is wonderful. Also when I see the results from my fellow provincial golfer TylerJudd, driver distance, 7 iron distance, etc. those numbers say to me he has some really really good things going on and must have different areas of opportunities to get his index down a bit. 

As a comment, tracking numbers in a controlled environment inside, with a launch monitor, I believe 100% this is the way to go. Since golf is a "constant series of adjustment" on the course, temperature, uneven lies, wind, feel, if you have a sore neck or foot or whatever, all golfers have to have a baseline and adjust from, ie if your baseline for your 8 iron (which mine is) carry 135 yds, then you can adjust to the elements etc. Getting fitted outside is not the correct way to go, makes no sense and a waste of money. 

committed to performance excellence

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