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Lie angles with irons and wedges


Cullen
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I’ve always said that it’s the biggest scam in golf that companies can use whatever loft they want to make their irons. Nobody really talks about the fact that they do the same thing with lie angles.

I got fit for new irons when I was a 15 handicap, so naturally my swing was very steep and over the top. I got fit for 2 degrees upright from standard (Mizuno Jpx 921 forged). I am now a 5 handicap and trying to really dial in swing mechanics. I just recently figured out that there was no possible way I could compress the ball correctly (with my swing at least) with clubs that upright. I was subconsciously having to open the face to keep the ball flight straight. No wonder I was over spinning every club! For example, each club was going about 2 clubs shorter than they should have been. I’m about a 110-115 swing speed with driver and was hitting 6 iron 165. I experimented with flattening the lie angles in my irons and I was able to keep clubface closed properly without the fear of hooking the ball. Closed clubface= Less loft and less spin. I’m finally able to control ball flight and spin, as a higher swing speed player. I’m carrying that 6 iron about 185-190 now.

I’m now learning that most of golfs best ball strikers throughout history have used flatter lie angles. Flatter lie angles promote a more shallow swing in order to keep a straighter ball flight. The opposite is true with upright lie angles, like I mentioned above.

The point of this post is to hopefully help someone else out with a similar problem. I think it’s so important to understand the specs of the clubs you are using. And when it’s time for new clubs you can make decisions based on your specs from previous clubs. Each brand is very different in that category which is why we hit certain brands better than others. In reality we could just pay attention to loft and lie angles that work best for us and bend irons and wedges to those specs.

Yes, I do think you should get fit for clubs. But, I am a firm believer that our swing will adapt to the clubs we are using. Brands tend to have more upright lie angles now because the average golfer swings more over the top, so their target market is much greater because of that. It’s business. Flatter lie angles will promote a more sound swing. Even if it takes some time.

Let me know what you guys think!

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I play mine 1 or 2 flat, but that is because I use to slice or have a big fade on all my shots as a higher handicap and as I got better I learned to draw the ball and then it turned into a hook. Classic case of over correcting so now I need the 1 or 2 flat in order to keep a straighter ball flight. 

I think my story or past is similar for many golfers. Struggle with slice so they get them 2 or 3 up to help with ball flight. 

My distance is decent, but nothing crazy and after my over correction I now really like to see the club face more open and that is why I see flatter lie angles more suited to me. 

Understanding your swing, your equipment and what is happening with your ball flight and why is really important and something that many if not most of us on the forum recognize. However not the case for all and it is important to get fit, to get a lesson if you have swing issues and importantly be able to hit the shots you want to. Just like you were able to get the better results by making some changes both with swing and equipment!

Again I think the general golfer struggles more with a slice and that is why we see more upright lie angles as it helps correct this without having to do too much with fixing a swing. A band aid fix as it be. 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

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8 hours ago, Cullen said:

I’ve always said that it’s the biggest scam in golf that companies can use whatever loft they want to make their irons. Nobody really talks about the fact that they do the same thing with lie angles.

It’s not a scam. Just like each company determines the length they want their clubs to be standard. These are design choices by each company.

No different than how they choose their clubs to look, sound, feel, weigh. Or what shafts they choose to make stock, no upcharge and upcharge.

We talk about it all the time on forums when people either ask what their lie, loft,length should be or what effects one of those has on the ball.

What you are pointing out in your post is the importance of getting fit and then refit when the swing/game improves to make sure that one’s current setup is still good for their swing.

contrary to belief these companies aren’t out “to get” golfers 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I always have said I wish they put loft numbers on clubs in stead of just one number. Meaning instead of a “4” iron I wish it just said “21.” Lie is obviously a little different. While I completely agree about getting refit, and I am just now in the enlightenment phase myself with that, I still don’t think these companies are out to get anyone either. But when they can label their new irons as “longest on the market,” it gets people to look. Even though their 4 iron is lifted at 17 degrees. But that can really help some golfers, so I don’t think they are out to get anyone either. Just an interesting way to market.

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31 minutes ago, Cullen said:

I always have said I wish they put loft numbers on clubs in stead of just one number. Meaning instead of a “4” iron I wish it just said “21.” Lie is obviously a little different. While I completely agree about getting refit, and I am just now in the enlightenment phase myself with that, I still don’t think these companies are out to get anyone either. But when they can label their new irons as “longest on the market,” it gets people to look. Even though their 4 iron is lifted at 17 degrees. But that can really help some golfers, so I don’t think they are out to get anyone either. Just an interesting way to market.

Ben Hogan Golf did that and it didn’t go well and they stopped.

People want to know the number of the iron. Also most amateurs have 0 knowledge of what their lofts are. They know when they have X distance they are going to use Y club based on the best shot they hit with that club at some point in the past and not their average distance with it. They also look at total distance they hit it and not how far they carry then get upset when they come up short.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Also no different from companies that have 3/4/5/7 woods with different lofts between the companies for each. Or how their adjustable hosels are made or adjusted.

Or how shaft companies label flexes and weights.

Basically there is no standards in golf and that’s not a bad thing.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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The best ball strikers prob could have hit a piece of coal with a shovel 150 yards.  Those guys were good.

but yeah get dialed in there fella.

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Mizuno irons, hybrids and Driver of the week 😆.  Cally wedges from CPO!

Nice Shot Man! ⛳️ 

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47 minutes ago, Cullen said:

I always have said I wish they put loft numbers on clubs in stead of just one number. Meaning instead of a “4” iron I wish it just said “21.” Lie is obviously a little different. While I completely agree about getting refit, and I am just now in the enlightenment phase myself with that, I still don’t think these companies are out to get anyone either. But when they can label their new irons as “longest on the market,” it gets people to look. Even though their 4 iron is lifted at 17 degrees. But that can really help some golfers, so I don’t think they are out to get anyone either. Just an interesting way to market.

Doesn’t National Custom do this?  Nice looking sets.  I think the steel is of Japanese origin.

Mizuno irons, hybrids and Driver of the week 😆.  Cally wedges from CPO!

Nice Shot Man! ⛳️ 

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On 1/19/2023 at 5:46 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not a scam. Just like each company determines the length they want their clubs to be standard. These are design choices by each company.

No different than how they choose their clubs to look, sound, feel, weigh. Or what shafts they choose to make stock, no upcharge and upcharge.

We talk about it all the time on forums when people either ask what their lie, loft,length should be or what effects one of those has on the ball.

What you are pointing out in your post is the importance of getting fit and then refit when the swing/game improves to make sure that one’s current setup is still good for their swing.

contrary to belief these companies aren’t out “to get” golfers 

This: I wonder if half the reason why people have brand biases is due to loft/lie differences. Makes you think one company is better than another due to one OEM’s “stock” loft/lie suiting you more. 

 

Driver - Cobra LtDxLS

3 Wood - Ping g410 LST

2iron - Titleist U505

Irons - Ping i59

Wedges - Vokey Sm9

Putter - Mizuno Mcraft IV

 

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On 1/19/2023 at 2:36 PM, Cullen said:

I always have said I wish they put loft numbers on clubs in stead of just one number. Meaning instead of a “4” iron I wish it just said “21.” Lie is obviously a little different. While I completely agree about getting refit, and I am just now in the enlightenment phase myself with that, I still don’t think these companies are out to get anyone either. But when they can label their new irons as “longest on the market,” it gets people to look. Even though their 4 iron is lifted at 17 degrees. But that can really help some golfers, so I don’t think they are out to get anyone either. Just an interesting way to market.

Personally i think too much is made of loft jacking and what that means. 

New golfers are looking for 2 main things. Something they can hit straight and something they can hit long. They don't look out care about spin numbers or that. 

We are lucky on the forum that we are golf nuts and can pick at different elements including spin, Launch, lie angle and more. We are however I would argue in the minority. 

I wouldn't have to see lofts on the bottom, but it also doesn't really matter to me. My 9 is my 145 carry club and I have good club gapping from there on both sides of my bag. If i went to a sgi set and now my pw was my 145 club great. Still doesn't change the fact i want for gaps for the rest of my bag.

More be players would be more comfortable seeing traditional numbers and I think all companies would have to be in board going to lofts for it work, but again the confusion would likely be overwhelming. 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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6 hours ago, Micah T said:

This: I wonder if half the reason why people have brand biases is due to loft/lie differences. Makes you think one company is better than another due to one OEM’s “stock” loft/lie suiting you more. 

It’s possible. With length, loft and lie angles varying between brands along with sole designs, weighting, cg placement there’s enough difference between brands that could cause some off the shelf clubs to play better for someone than others.

someone that is steep is going to need different sole and lie than a sweeper. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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On 1/18/2023 at 11:12 PM, Cullen said:

I’ve always said that it’s the biggest scam in golf that companies can use whatever loft they want to make their irons. Nobody really talks about the fact that they do the same thing with lie angles.

I got fit for new irons when I was a 15 handicap, so naturally my swing was very steep and over the top. I got fit for 2 degrees upright from standard (Mizuno Jpx 921 forged). I am now a 5 handicap and trying to really dial in swing mechanics. I just recently figured out that there was no possible way I could compress the ball correctly (with my swing at least) with clubs that upright. I was subconsciously having to open the face to keep the ball flight straight. No wonder I was over spinning every club! For example, each club was going about 2 clubs shorter than they should have been. I’m about a 110-115 swing speed with driver and was hitting 6 iron 165. I experimented with flattening the lie angles in my irons and I was able to keep clubface closed properly without the fear of hooking the ball. Closed clubface= Less loft and less spin. I’m finally able to control ball flight and spin, as a higher swing speed player. I’m carrying that 6 iron about 185-190 now.

I’m now learning that most of golfs best ball strikers throughout history have used flatter lie angles. Flatter lie angles promote a more shallow swing in order to keep a straighter ball flight. The opposite is true with upright lie angles, like I mentioned above.

The point of this post is to hopefully help someone else out with a similar problem. I think it’s so important to understand the specs of the clubs you are using. And when it’s time for new clubs you can make decisions based on your specs from previous clubs. Each brand is very different in that category which is why we hit certain brands better than others. In reality we could just pay attention to loft and lie angles that work best for us and bend irons and wedges to those specs.

Yes, I do think you should get fit for clubs. But, I am a firm believer that our swing will adapt to the clubs we are using. Brands tend to have more upright lie angles now because the average golfer swings more over the top, so their target market is much greater because of that. It’s business. Flatter lie angles will promote a more sound swing. Even if it takes some time.

Let me know what you guys think!

I love that you bring this up. I was fit for P790s and at the time (2019ish), my swing was a bit outside in and the ball flight I was looking for was a baby fade. I was fully capable of controlling this most of the time with my off-the-rack Wilson Deep Red II that I'd had and played with for 15 years. So, this coupled with the fact that the turf was showing a toe dig with the new set, my fitter naturally bent mine up 3*.

Fast forward to 2022 and I finally discovered the beauty that is backing off at address, taking the club back inside, and aiming to hit it at 4 o'clock, I now feel like I have to really pay attention to my face angle to get it right. If I get too loose, I push it out right with a fade. If I'm too tight, I hook it.

So yeah, I think before this outdoor season starts, I'm going to do another fitting session and see if they need to be bent down. Thanks for the reminder!

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Came back to golf 2 years ago , had similar problem at start, was slicing mostly so fitter put me 2 upright, halfway trough first season, was ALWAYS hooking, after the season, went back to get reajusted I was standard lie (ping did it for free) only cost me shipping, played all year without any left right trouble, my swing changed again and my shaft felt a little out of control as my swing improved. I bough I525 (mainly for the feel) with a different shaft. SO in basically 2 years when with 3 major change on my irons. HOPEfully I will be good for a few years...

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I would not confuse swing path flat upright with club heel toe orientation at impact

Lie angle is more posture body orientations than flat steep within a range. I could make club really flat add 2" to shaft and moving club head further away and still swing upright.

The goal is deliver the club square to path and heel toe flat to ground at a set distance from body based on leg length, back length, arm length.

And yes, BAD swing mechanics will have different club fit than better swings.

 

It is just different, trying to give best.outcome given swing type....within reasonable range.

 

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I just watched a review of 2023 8 irons of major manufacturers...the 8 iron lie angle had a variance between 33 and 38 degrees....the 33 degree 8 iron was consistently flying 180 yards and the 38 degree 8 iron was consistently flying 155 yards....all of these were major club manufacturers under careful testing procedures....

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Golf Gear Head

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Holy Wow Batman!  This will make being a golf teacher harder 

random pairings will break out into arguments over club selection.  What a mess

Edited by caryncgolfer

Mizuno irons, hybrids and Driver of the week 😆.  Cally wedges from CPO!

Nice Shot Man! ⛳️ 

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I think the biggest problem is MONEY, how much can you afford to spend on golf clubs. When I started very little so got a old set from a friend for $50 and they were lefties lol and I'm right handed, even today I play with used Mizuno MP32 MP57 I did have Titleist T200 Irons but couldn't get better results so went back to the Mizuno irons with ladies shafts. 

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26 minutes ago, Bang60 said:

I think the biggest problem is MONEY, how much can you afford to spend on golf clubs. When I started very little so got a old set from a friend for $50 and they were lefties lol and I'm right handed, even today I play with used Mizuno MP32 MP57 I did have Titleist T200 Irons but couldn't get better results so went back to the Mizuno irons with ladies shafts. 

Plays with almost the best irons… and complains.  I see you sir.  I see you 👀.  Haha

Mizuno irons, hybrids and Driver of the week 😆.  Cally wedges from CPO!

Nice Shot Man! ⛳️ 

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3 hours ago, TitleistMike said:

I would not confuse swing path flat upright with club heel toe orientation at impact

Lie angle is more posture body orientations than flat steep within a range. I could make club really flat add 2" to shaft and moving club head further away and still swing upright.

The goal is deliver the club square to path and heel toe flat to ground at a set distance from body based on leg length, back length, arm length.

And yes, BAD swing mechanics will have different club fit than better swings.

 

It is just different, trying to give best.outcome given swing type....within reasonable range.

 

Nobody is confusing those. We are talking lie angle of the club. 
 

And yes lie angle is body posture, how that affects swing and delivery of the club.  It’s why using the sharpie marker is the best way to find lie angle. The lie angle provided by the manufacturer is just a starting point for their club and each person would need to see if that is a fit or needs adjusting based on now they deliver the club.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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On 6/23/2022 at 1:21 PM, Handy said:

Thanks shinnman and TitleistMike, definitely going to have to make some notes. I know I have not put more weight on lead foot. I like the idea of practice of swing at 5, 4, and 3 o'clock to know with confidence how far it will go. Will need to do this for tall grass situation and Fairway. I

I assume on a Fairway situation the low projectory would be best, like a bump and run?

 

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nobody is confusing those. We are talking lie angle of the club. 
 

And yes lie angle is body posture, how that affects swing and delivery of the club.  It’s why using the sharpie marker is the best way to find lie angle. The lie angle provided by the manufacturer is just a starting point for their club and each person would need to see if that is a fit or needs adjusting based on now they deliver the club.

OP wanted to say upright lie angle was bad , counter to a flat swing, and promotes an upright swing....that is simply incorrect 

 

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