Lie angles with irons and wedges

[GolfSpy TCB]

1 minute ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

All good, sometimes we write and hit submit then afterwards see the silly mistake. It's happened to me more times than I can count. 

That being said, stronger lofts are nothing new. Engineering of clubs has also changed and advanced to allow for stronger lofts to be more accommodating allowing many to maintain their distance vs loosing some. @Golfspy_TCB has a great writeup about that when he was playing the Stealth irons. 

Ping is one of the few companies to offer those options. It allows many to find the fit they want or spin numbers they want. However I imagine standard is overwhelmingly more commonly ordered vs the others. 

However we can go on all day talking about lofts and this is more a thread on lie angles so keeping to so many have different types of swings and require different lie angles because of that or due to flight and more use different lie angles. It is a tool to be used and this isn't even to mention the length of one OEMs 7 iron vs another can be different which then also effects lie angle.  

Stronger lofts is certainly a rabbit hole I think ALL serious golfers cross paths with every time we test out different irons than the one we are currently gaming.  To me (and I'm not trying to invite more fan to the flame here) but there is a huge difference between a "less technology enhanced" club with x degrees of loft and a "fully technology enhanced" club with the same x degrees of loft.  There too many factors that get into it... and I'm not a club engineer but things like head weighting and CG and such... I could take an 8 iron in my MP68 blades and bend it to the loft of my Stealth 8 iron, but that would be where the similarities stop... they aren't going to be "the same" shot profile.  I really didn't start understanding this until I started playing the Stealth irons and saw that the loft wasn't they key... it was the flight window... from my own experience, I am getting a higher trajectory AS WELL AS more carry distance from a lower lofted club... and to me that trajectory is the key.  My opinion has changed on "loft jacking"... I don't think it is appropriate to over generalize that term as an absolute.  My opinion FWIW.

Anyway, for reference (because @GolfSpy_APH tagged it in his note) here is my Stealth Irons write-up.  

 

[GolfSpy TCB]

4 minutes ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

Stronger lofts is certainly a rabbit hole I think ALL serious golfers cross paths with every time we test out different irons than the one we are currently gaming.  To me (and I'm not trying to invite more fan to the flame here) but there is a huge difference between a "less technology enhanced" club with x degrees of loft and a "fully technology enhanced" club with the same x degrees of loft.  There too many factors that get into it... and I'm not a club engineer but things like head weighting and CG and such... I could take an 8 iron in my MP68 blades and bend it to the loft of my Stealth 8 iron, but that would be where the similarities stop... they aren't going to be "the same" shot profile.  I really didn't start understanding this until I started playing the Stealth irons and saw that the loft wasn't they key... it was the flight window... from my own experience, I am getting a higher trajectory AS WELL AS more carry distance from a lower lofted club... and to me that trajectory is the key.  My opinion has changed on "loft jacking"... I don't think it is appropriate to over generalize that term as an absolute.  My opinion FWIW.

Anyway, for reference (because @GolfSpy_APH tagged it in his note) here is my Stealth Irons write-up.  

 

Just realized this post was off the thread topic... (my comments were on loft... not lie angle - but was responding to the loft comment I was tagged in)

If there is a mod in the house... feel free to move it to the appropriate thread   haha.

[RickyBobby_PR]

46 minutes ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

Stronger lofts is certainly a rabbit hole I think ALL serious golfers cross paths with every time we test out different irons than the one we are currently gaming.  To me (and I'm not trying to invite more fan to the flame here) but there is a huge difference between a "less technology enhanced" club with x degrees of loft and a "fully technology enhanced" club with the same x degrees of loft.  There too many factors that get into it... and I'm not a club engineer but things like head weighting and CG and such... I could take an 8 iron in my MP68 blades and bend it to the loft of my Stealth 8 iron, but that would be where the similarities stop... they aren't going to be "the same" shot profile.  I really didn't start understanding this until I started playing the Stealth irons and saw that the loft wasn't they key... it was the flight window... from my own experience, I am getting a higher trajectory AS WELL AS more carry distance from a lower lofted club... and to me that trajectory is the key.  My opinion has changed on "loft jacking"... I don't think it is appropriate to over generalize that term as an absolute.  My opinion FWIW.

Anyway, for reference (because @GolfSpy_APH tagged it in his note) here is my Stealth Irons write-up.  

 

Iirc somebody on here went thru a Mizuno iron fitting late last year and despite the loft differences in the jpx line he was getting very similar numbers. So as you said there’s a lot more to the story than just loft

[joedeausen]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:12 PM, Cullen said:

I’ve always said that it’s the biggest scam in golf that companies can use whatever loft they want to make their irons. Nobody really talks about the fact that they do the same thing with lie angles.

I got fit for new irons when I was a 15 handicap, so naturally my swing was very steep and over the top. I got fit for 2 degrees upright from standard (Mizuno Jpx 921 forged). I am now a 5 handicap and trying to really dial in swing mechanics. I just recently figured out that there was no possible way I could compress the ball correctly (with my swing at least) with clubs that upright. I was subconsciously having to open the face to keep the ball flight straight. No wonder I was over spinning every club! For example, each club was going about 2 clubs shorter than they should have been. I’m about a 110-115 swing speed with driver and was hitting 6 iron 165. I experimented with flattening the lie angles in my irons and I was able to keep clubface closed properly without the fear of hooking the ball. Closed clubface= Less loft and less spin. I’m finally able to control ball flight and spin, as a higher swing speed player. I’m carrying that 6 iron about 185-190 now.

I’m now learning that most of golfs best ball strikers throughout history have used flatter lie angles. Flatter lie angles promote a more shallow swing in order to keep a straighter ball flight. The opposite is true with upright lie angles, like I mentioned above.

The point of this post is to hopefully help someone else out with a similar problem. I think it’s so important to understand the specs of the clubs you are using. And when it’s time for new clubs you can make decisions based on your specs from previous clubs. Each brand is very different in that category which is why we hit certain brands better than others. In reality we could just pay attention to loft and lie angles that work best for us and bend irons and wedges to those specs.

Yes, I do think you should get fit for clubs. But, I am a firm believer that our swing will adapt to the clubs we are using. Brands tend to have more upright lie angles now because the average golfer swings more over the top, so their target market is much greater because of that. It’s business. Flatter lie angles will promote a more sound swing. Even if it takes some time.

Let me know what you guys think!

I agree that you should get fit for clubs.  To add to this discussion, when I got fit in late 2019 for my clubs at a local Club Champion, I was fit for Mizuno JPX 919 Forged Irons.  My club fitter let me know that included in the cost was an annual checkup for club lofts and lie angles.  That means every year, a customer can schedule a fitting checkup to get adjustments.  "Depending on how often you play, iron head material — softer forged carbon steels will move more with regular use — and course conditions (firm versus soft)" https://golf.com/gear/irons/golf-club-fitter-check-loft-and-lie-angle/.     This is one of the benefits not often mentioned when discussing buying off the rack vs. getting fit for clubs.  Also, I don't know if all club fitters provide this service (gratis) as part of the club build cost (Club Champion).  my 2 cents.

[GolfSpy BOS]

41 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Iirc somebody on here went thru a Mizuno iron fitting late last year and despite the loft differences in the jpx line he was getting very similar numbers. So as you said there’s a lot more to the story than just loft

This just happened with Matty during his Cobra King Tour and MB/CB.  He hit the MB further than the King Tour despite the (I think) 2 degrees of loft difference. 

After going from AP2 to the Cobra Forged Tec my mind was changed on the whole "loft jacking" term.  I look at it differently now.  If I'm looking at an iron I couldn't care less how far an individual iron goes provided the launch/spin/efficiency is appropriate for the loft on it.  What I care about is how does it look like my gapping will be with the set, and what clubs would I need to fill in at the low and high end of the bag.  If the longest iron goes 180 or 200 and the shortest foes 110 or 125 I don't care, as long as the gapping is good.  I'll adjust to taking whatever number is needed for that yardage.  

My Forged Tec irons have better gapping for me than my AP2s did.  And despite the lofts being all jacked up I hit them higher too. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

This just happened with Matty during his Cobra King Tour and MB/CB.  He hit the MB further than the King Tour despite the (I think) 2 degrees of loft difference. 

After going from AP2 to the Cobra Forged Tec my mind was changed on the whole "loft jacking" term.  I look at it differently now.  If I'm looking at an iron I couldn't care less how far an individual iron goes provided the launch/spin/efficiency is appropriate for the loft on it.  What I care about is how does it look like my gapping will be with the set, and what clubs would I need to fill in at the low and high end of the bag.  If the longest iron goes 180 or 200 and the shortest foes 110 or 125 I don't care, as long as the gapping is good.  I'll adjust to taking whatever number is needed for that yardage.  

My Forged Tec irons have better gapping for me than my AP2s did.  And despite the lofts being all jacked up I hit them higher too. 

I’ve had some interesting fittings the last couple years. Some of it due to swing issues with early release but heads that aren’t supposed to be high spin were higher spin than some heads that generally have higher spin. My p790 were higher than my miura cb

 But if more people looked at the launch window and found clubs that fit into that window and not worry about what the loft or iron number is they would be surprised what they fit into and how it works.

@bens197 I believe was the one who got the Mizuno fitting with the same results despite loft difference 

[HDTVMAN]

I'm a certified fitter. You are fit to your swing.  If it changes get re-fit and have your angles changed. Your height is a factor in fitting.  If under 5'10" you may need a flatter lie than if over 6'. Shaft length is also determined.  If you hit right an upright angle moves the ball left, where a flat lie moves it right...all depending on the degree. Again,  change the swing requires a re-fit.

[ChuckZ]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:12 PM, Cullen said:

I’ve always said that it’s the biggest scam in golf that companies can use whatever loft they want to make their irons. Nobody really talks about the fact that they do the same thing with lie angles.

I got fit for new irons when I was a 15 handicap, so naturally my swing was very steep and over the top. I got fit for 2 degrees upright from standard (Mizuno Jpx 921 forged). I am now a 5 handicap and trying to really dial in swing mechanics. I just recently figured out that there was no possible way I could compress the ball correctly (with my swing at least) with clubs that upright. I was subconsciously having to open the face to keep the ball flight straight. No wonder I was over spinning every club! For example, each club was going about 2 clubs shorter than they should have been. I’m about a 110-115 swing speed with driver and was hitting 6 iron 165. I experimented with flattening the lie angles in my irons and I was able to keep clubface closed properly without the fear of hooking the ball. Closed clubface= Less loft and less spin. I’m finally able to control ball flight and spin, as a higher swing speed player. I’m carrying that 6 iron about 185-190 now.

I’m now learning that most of golfs best ball strikers throughout history have used flatter lie angles. Flatter lie angles promote a more shallow swing in order to keep a straighter ball flight. The opposite is true with upright lie angles, like I mentioned above.

The point of this post is to hopefully help someone else out with a similar problem. I think it’s so important to understand the specs of the clubs you are using. And when it’s time for new clubs you can make decisions based on your specs from previous clubs. Each brand is very different in that category which is why we hit certain brands better than others. In reality we could just pay attention to loft and lie angles that work best for us and bend irons and wedges to those specs.

Yes, I do think you should get fit for clubs. But, I am a firm believer that our swing will adapt to the clubs we are using. Brands tend to have more upright lie angles now because the average golfer swings more over the top, so their target market is much greater because of that. It’s business. Flatter lie angles will promote a more sound swing. Even if it takes some time.

Let me know what you guys think!

I was fitted years ago at 2* upright and never truly hit the ball, I felt purely.  Went to a certified Titleist fitter and they found me to me 2* flat and have been striking the ball much better.  That is a huge difference.  Even have my putter set at 1* flat which has improved my putting.  Agree with the flat lie.  My fitter set me straight.  Playing devils advocate, may also have to do with the experience of the fitter.  That was my case.    

[Bang60]

7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They aren’t. Yes you may find some that match between manufactures but even with in a manufacturer their different models aren’t the same loft. A cb and mb are going to be different as are a cb and gi

 

and here’s an example

callaway’s current MB

pw is 46° with 63.3° lie angle the lofts have 4° separation until 4i. 9i lie is 62.5 and they change by .5° as the iron gets longer

 

titleist current mb

pw is 47° with 64° lie angle and lofts change by 4° until 4i. 9i has same lie angle as pw then they change by .5°

Ahhh strange coincidence...

[Andrew75]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:17 PM, Bang60 said:

That's your opinion SIR... hahahaha

Always check your lofts and lies, from anyone anywhere. I'm usually going to adjust them slightly anyway because I won't pay custom fees. I've been adjusting and checking irons I use for play as standard practice for 40+ years. It makes a huge difference and eliminates favored and unfavored clubs and distance gapping, plus it shows exactly where and when at what precise loft you need to jump to a hybrid because you'll find at a certain point regardless of loft you hit, say the 4 and 5 iron the same distance.  All brands are off claimed spec at least once or twice. Most brands also gap less as the iron goes down.  With lie it's almost always in the upright direction, and with loft it tends toward more loft. I have simply wondered aloud why that might be. 

[Bang60]

6 hours ago, Andrew75 said:

Always check your lofts and lies, from anyone anywhere. I'm usually going to adjust them slightly anyway because I won't pay custom fees. I've been adjusting and checking irons I use for play as standard practice for 40+ years. It makes a huge difference and eliminates favored and unfavored clubs and distance gapping, plus it shows exactly where and when at what precise loft you need to jump to a hybrid because you'll find at a certain point regardless of loft you hit, say the 4 and 5 iron the same distance.  All brands are off claimed spec at least once or twice. Most brands also gap less as the iron goes down.  With lie it's almost always in the upright direction, and with loft it tends toward more loft. I have simply wondered aloud why that might be. 

I can't keep up with you dude, I comment on you saying Titleist T200 Irons are the best and then I say "iyo" now your response is check your loft and lie's which I agree with, but I've never been advised to do that before and I've had alot of lessons.. 

JUST GOES TO SHOW THAT THERE LOTS OF GOLF PRO's I wouldn't feed and won't see me visiting ONE any time soon.... ###

[caryncgolfer]

1 hour ago, Bang60 said:

I can't keep up with you dude, I comment on you saying Titleist T200 Irons are the best and then I say "iyo" now your response is check your loft and lie's which I agree with, but I've never been advised to do that before and I've had alot of lessons.. 

JUST GOES TO SHOW THAT THERE LOTS OF GOLF PRO's I wouldn't feed and won't see me visiting ONE any time soon.... ###

Everyone should check their lofts and lies.  But they don’t change very often

[IONEPUTT]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:12 PM, Cullen said:

I’ve always said that it’s the biggest scam in golf that companies can use whatever loft they want to make their irons. Nobody really talks about the fact that they do the same thing with lie angles.

I got fit for new irons when I was a 15 handicap, so naturally my swing was very steep and over the top. I got fit for 2 degrees upright from standard (Mizuno Jpx 921 forged). I am now a 5 handicap and trying to really dial in swing mechanics. I just recently figured out that there was no possible way I could compress the ball correctly (with my swing at least) with clubs that upright. I was subconsciously having to open the face to keep the ball flight straight. No wonder I was over spinning every club! For example, each club was going about 2 clubs shorter than they should have been. I’m about a 110-115 swing speed with driver and was hitting 6 iron 165. I experimented with flattening the lie angles in my irons and I was able to keep clubface closed properly without the fear of hooking the ball. Closed clubface= Less loft and less spin. I’m finally able to control ball flight and spin, as a higher swing speed player. I’m carrying that 6 iron about 185-190 now.

I’m now learning that most of golfs best ball strikers throughout history have used flatter lie angles. Flatter lie angles promote a more shallow swing in order to keep a straighter ball flight. The opposite is true with upright lie angles, like I mentioned above.

The point of this post is to hopefully help someone else out with a similar problem. I think it’s so important to understand the specs of the clubs you are using. And when it’s time for new clubs you can make decisions based on your specs from previous clubs. Each brand is very different in that category which is why we hit certain brands better than others. In reality we could just pay attention to loft and lie angles that work best for us and bend irons and wedges to those specs.

Yes, I do think you should get fit for clubs. But, I am a firm believer that our swing will adapt to the clubs we are using. Brands tend to have more upright lie angles now because the average golfer swings more over the top, so their target market is much greater because of that. It’s business. Flatter lie angles will promote a more sound swing. Even if it takes some time.

Let me know what you guys think!

The same can be said about woods as well. At least with irons and wedges it's pretty easy to have the lie anlge bent up or down if you need to. But with a fairway wood with an muc shorter hosel length it near impossible to bend the lie angle it you need it. Most golfers are stuck with what the factory gives them. 

[null]

12 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

The same can be said about woods as well. At least with irons and wedges it's pretty easy to have the lie anlge bent up or down if you need to. But with a fairway wood with an muc shorter hosel length it near impossible to bend the lie angle it you need it. Most golfers are stuck with what the factory gives them. 

Which is why OEMs created adjustable necks.  

[IONEPUTT]

7 minutes ago, Golfspy_Lukes said:

Which is why OEMs created adjustable necks.  

That's fine if you want to get new woods and you like rotating the shaft to change the angles, But I for one do not like todays clubs that require the golfer to rotate the shaft as that messes up the spine and FLO alignment of the shaft and that can ruin the performance of what WAS a pretty good club. 

And not every own wants or needs to go out a buy all new woods. Cost is one factor to consider for most golfers these days. 

[null]

4 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

That's fine if you want to get new woods and you like rotating the shaft to change the angles, But I for one do not like todays clubs that require the golfer to rotate the shaft as that messes up the spine and FLO alignment of the shaft and that can ruin the performance of what WAS a pretty good club. 

And not every own wants or needs to go out a buy all new woods. Cost is one factor to consider for most golfers these days. 

Ah you're a spine and flo guy...

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

6 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

That's fine if you want to get new woods and you like rotating the shaft to change the angles, But I for one do not like todays clubs that require the golfer to rotate the shaft as that messes up the spine and FLO alignment of the shaft and that can ruin the performance of what WAS a pretty good club. 

And not every own wants or needs to go out a buy all new woods. Cost is one factor to consider for most golfers these days. 

Not all require you to change the shaft. Titleist and callaway both have adjustable hosels that don't require that and Titleist has been doing it for years so you can always purchase a used club. Just saying there are options outside of new clubs. 

Yes woods are harder to bend, most that don't have adjustable hosels have an area where they can be bent. I do wonder how many actually adjust the lie angle on woods vs irons... also given the what club do you rarely use thread the 3 wood and clubs in that area definitely lead that category so maybe it isn't as big of a factor as it is a club that simply isn't used as much for many?

[PIJoe]

I don't see how with the availability of club builders and adjustments, why some seem to think that what they buy is what they will have to use. I mean- any reputable shop will be able to adjust a loft, lie, length... whatever it is. Sure you'll run into some issues with leading edges, etc, with some sole grinds, but everything can be adjusted.

I like about 2* flat lie because I'm shorter and have a shallower swing. That 1/2" shorter club + 2* flat combo gives me the best chance to make solid contact and good trajectory. I don't think the OEM's are trying to screw anyone, they're just trying to be the "longest" in commercials, but that doesn't mean that they'll be the longest once adjusted to your specific needs.

[caryncgolfer]

2 hours ago, PIJoe said:

I don't see how with the availability of club builders and adjustments, why some seem to think that what they buy is what they will have to use. I mean- any reputable shop will be able to adjust a loft, lie, length... whatever it is. Sure you'll run into some issues with leading edges, etc, with some sole grinds, but everything can be adjusted.

I like about 2* flat lie because I'm shorter and have a shallower swing. That 1/2" shorter club + 2* flat combo gives me the best chance to make solid contact and good trajectory. I don't think the OEM's are trying to screw anyone, they're just trying to be the "longest" in commercials, but that doesn't mean that they'll be the longest once adjusted to your specific needs.

Some generations just hate asking someone to work on their clubs.  When I started there was a gulf dog jest fitter around but I just saw him giving people ping clubs all the time and saying “looks like that works for you.”  So I didn’t see any value in asking.

and tbh to this day it would be hard to trust anyone without a Mitchell, true blue or Scotland loft lie machine and a really good reputation.  I def do not want my clubs marred.