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Edit 4/3/12 -- Does lighter really mean longer?

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EDIT 4/3/12: Added Driver stats

 

 

 

I did a test with two 3 woods to see if my swing speed was noticeably different between the two.

 

 

 

3 wood #1: 324g

 

3 wood #2: 335g

 

 

I swung each club 10 times, alternating clubs each swing and using a medicus swing speed meter to gauge speed.

 

 

 

3W #1 3W #2
105mph 103mph
104mph 109mph
111mph 115mph
113mph 113mph
109mph 109mph
109mph 110mph
112mph 111mph
109mph 108mph
110mph 109mph
109mph 109mph

 

 

 

Average of 3W #1: 109.1

 

Average of 3W #2: 109.5

 

 

 

Tossing out the first three swings of each, the averages 110.14 and 109.8. Assuming 2.5mph = 1 yard extra distance and using the difference of .34mph, that's 0.135 yards.

 

 

 

reference for 2.5mph = 1 yard: http://www.golf-swing-tips.com/golf-swing-speed.html

 

 

 

It's a small sample size, but when I first started, it felt like I was swinging the lighter club faster. I wish there was a bigger difference between the two clubs in terms of weight, but even if the difference was 30g, it's still only 10% of the actual club weight (Cleveland touts their UL driver as 25g lighter than traditional drivers).

 

 

 

Driver #1: 265g

 

Driver #2: 325g

 

 

Just like with the 3 wood, I swung each club 10 times, alternating clubs each swing and using a medicus swing speed meter to gauge speed.

 

 

 

Driver #1 Driver #2
108mph 108mph
114mph 116mph
118mph 117mph
119mph 117mph
118mph 117mph
120mph 117mph
117mph 120mph
119mph 120mph
119mph 117mph
116mph 116mph

 

 

 

Average of Driver #1: 116.8

 

Average of Driver #2: 116.5

 

 

 

Tossing out the first three swings of each, the averages 118.29 and 117.7. Assuming 2.5mph = 1 yard extra distance and using the difference of .59mph, that's 0.236 yards. Just like with the 3-wood, I felt I was swinging the lighter club much faster. The fact that the swing speeds were nearly identical is pretty shocking considering a difference of 60 grams.

 

 

 

The point is, has anyone actually seen that lighter is noticeably longer? Or is this just another marketing angle that really doesn't hold up to testing, like club length?

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Maybe Tiger can tell the difference of 10 grams. You are talking about 3% of weight and an increase of 0.3% so maybe. I recently changed to a lighter shaft to see if that increased club head speed on the irons. These are 100 vs 120 grams. Call it 20% lighter, to be honest, I had not seen any real increase, until today. It seems that on the same course that I play everyday, I hit the same club the same distance. However, on a different course, with no preconcieved idea of how far I normally hit this iron, I hit it a truer distance.


 

Driver:      :mizuno-small:  ST190G on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Fairway:   :mizuno-small:  ST190TS 15° on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Hybrids     :mizuno-small:  CLK 22 & 25 (set to 20° & 23°) on Fujikura SPEEDER

Irons:     :mizuno-small:  MP5 5-P on True Temper Dynamic Gold

Wedges: :mizuno-small: MP-T5 52*, 56* & 60* on True Temper Dynamic Gold Wedge

Putter:    :cameron-small: 2018 Select Newport 2

Balls:      :titelist-small: Pro V1X

Shoes:     :footjoy-small:

Range Finder: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated

 

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Last year I won a TM Superfast 2.0 3-wood. It has the 25gm Winn grip and 46gm Matrix Ozik shaft. Total weight on my swingweight scale is 298 grams. This was about an ounce (28gm.) lighter than my driver. I immediately put it in my bag and played with it for several months. And I even experimented with a 25gm. grip on my driver to get it's total weight down to about 292 grams. Today I have a standard grip on my driver, and my older (340gm) 3-wood in the bag.

 

The Superfast 2.0 3-wood felt completely different than any other club in my bag. I always felt like I needed to use a different swing to hit it well. It was longer than standard which also contributed to the different feel. I hit it well on occasion, but I never knew where it would go when I hit it. The lighter grip on my driver was also failed experiment. No noticeable distance increase and I didn't really like the feel of that Winn grip. I didn't have any way to judge swing speed, but that longer shaft, lightweight 3-wood just didn't fit my swing.

 

Distance is a combination of swing speed, hitting the ball in the center of the clubface, and proper angle of attack. If you can't control the club well enough to time your swing properly and hit the ball squarely, any extra speed is of no value. Some players may benefit from a super light club, but I'm not one of them.

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... If you can't control the club well enough to time your swing properly and hit the ball squarely, any extra speed is of no value ...

 

I think that says everything right there.


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At least for me who perfers things to be a bit lighter then "standard" it's not about extra speed up front, it's about extra speed at the end of the round. I have no problems hitting peak speed with a fairly heavy or light shaft for the first 12 holes or so. It's when I have a forced carry on say hole 15/16 where the light comes into play. I can back off how much power I'm putting into shots early in the round so I can play the whole round the same, or even multiple rounds in the same day.

 

Effectively lighter clubs/shafts for me is why I generally perfer graphite shafts in my irons, it's easier on my body over a round, multiple rounds or a string of packed rounds in a week/month.


I laught at your claims to fight a zombie apocalypse when most of you can't stand up to a Spider

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I did a test with two 3 woods to see if my swing speed was noticeably different between the two.

 

 

 

3 wood #1: 324g

 

3 wood #2: 335g

 

 

 

I swung each club 10 times, alternating clubs each swing and using a medicus swing speed meter to gauge speed......

 

Tossing out the first three swings of each, the averages 110.14 and 109.8. Assuming 2.5mph = 1 yard extra distance and using the difference of .34mph, that's 0.135 yards.

 

 

reference for 2.5mph = 1 yard: http://www.golf-swing-tips.com/golf-swing-speed.html

 

 

 

It's a small sample size, but when I first started, it felt like I was swinging the lighter club faster. I wish there was a bigger difference between the two clubs in terms of weight, but even if the difference was 30g, it's still only 10% of the actual club weight (Cleveland touts their UL driver as 25g lighter than traditional drivers).

 

 

 

The point is, has anyone actually seen that lighter is noticeably longer? Or is this just another marketing angle that really doesn't hold up to testing, like club length?

 

Nice work WD. As you noted, your sample was small, but statistically meaningful. The only problem is that the results are well within the error of the Medicus device you were using (hell, Tman is + or - one mph), so there was no difference. There is no doubt that a club sufficiently lighter SHOULD be able to be swung more quickly. The trick is to get the weight properly distributed to maintain sufficient "feel" of the clubhead, while getting the faster speed. The physics and engineering of this stuff gets really complicated, but I can tell you people have been having some success with ultralight shafts of sufficient quality using counterweights at the bottom of the grip handle. Cal Golf labs has been doing some interesting work in this area, but even if successful, I have not seen conclusive results that indicate the greater distance comes with the same dispersion. If all you are doing is turning an 8 iron into a strong 7 with the dispersion characteristic between and 6 & 7, what the hell have you accomplished?

 

The problem is that you probably need to be a very high-level player with an extremely repeatable swing to get useful results on the golf course. Basically, you need to be fitted by a top-end clubmaker for driver, 3w & hybrids, mid iron, and short irons on a top-line LM and try a wide variety of shaft/head combinations. For me and 95% of the MGSers, this is money far more wisely spent on instruction and/or practice. It might be fun for a driver ho to play with, but as WD documented, a simple shaft change for 10 gms is not likely to do a damn thing. I think most of us would need to see 25-40 gms difference before any significant results would be observed.

 

Furthermore, while I do not read Golf Digest, Golf Magazine, etc., from what I have perused in waiting rooms, it seems to me the big ultralight advertising has been muted this year.

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Nice work WD. As you noted, your sample was small, but statistically meaningful. The only problem is that the results are well within the error of the Medicus device you were using (hell, Tman is + or - one mph), so there was no difference. There is no doubt that a club sufficiently lighter SHOULD be able to be swung more quickly. The trick is to get the weight properly distributed to maintain sufficient "feel" of the clubhead, while getting the faster speed. The physics and engineering of this stuff gets really complicated, but I can tell you people have been having some success with ultralight shafts of sufficient quality using counterweights at the bottom of the grip handle. Cal Golf labs has been doing some interesting work in this area, but even if successful, I have not seen conclusive results that indicate the greater distance comes with the same dispersion. If all you are doing is turning an 8 iron into a strong 7 with the dispersion characteristic between and 6 & 7, what the hell have you accomplished?

 

The problem is that you probably need to be a very high-level player with an extremely repeatable swing to get useful results on the golf course. Basically, you need to be fitted by a top-end clubmaker for driver, 3w & hybrids, mid iron, and short irons on a top-line LM and try a wide variety of shaft/head combinations. For me and 95% of the MGSers, this is money far more wisely spent on instruction and/or practice. It might be fun for a driver ho to play with, but as WD documented, a simple shaft change for 10 gms is not likely to do a damn thing. I think most of us would need to see 25-40 gms difference before any significant results would be observed.

 

Furthermore, while I do not read Golf Digest, Golf Magazine, etc., from what I have perused in waiting rooms, it seems to me the big ultralight advertising has been muted this year.

 

Agree 100% about the margin of error. The thing is without knowing the numbers, I would have been convinced I was swinging the lighter club faster, which is great for marketing, but doesn't actually benefit the golfer. I'm willing the bet the same holds true for 25g, though once you get into the 40g range I'm guessing you'll notice a difference because now you're talking about 20% of the club weight.

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Agree 100% about the margin of error. The thing is without knowing the numbers, I would have been convinced I was swinging the lighter club faster, which is great for marketing, but doesn't actually benefit the golfer. I'm willing the bet the same holds true for 25g, though once you get into the 40g range I'm guessing you'll notice a difference because now you're talking about 20% of the club weight.

 

As soon as it warms up, I plan to get on the Trackman down at Novogolf(as part of a business trip of course ;) ) and see what I can find out with a driver and eight iron. I am taking a S-3 8 iron with a 75 gm shaft with a 10gm counterweight to try versus my R-9. I will also play with a Cleveland Ultralight driver and see what Tman has to say.

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Weight is more of a subjective thing and feel for each player. Jack Nicklaus used to back weight all of his irons from I think D2 to D0, might be wrong on the exact weighting.

 

The WinnLite technology will increase the swing weight of the club dramatically. There was a driver that offered a WinnLite grip stock and a standard grip stock as an alternative the standard swing weighted to about D2. We through the same model driver on the scale with the winn grip and i think if i recall correctly it was a D9 or E0 or something insane but it didn't feel so heavy you couldn't swing it.

 

Majority of better players tend to like to be able to feel the head in the swing to manipulate the face easier and to create a smoother tempo. Not everyone is the same however.

 

This is the WinnLite Technology speech --> http://www.winngrips.com/technologies/winnlite


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Weight is more of a subjective thing and feel for each player. Jack Nicklaus used to back weight all of his irons from I think D2 to D0, might be wrong on the exact weighting.

 

The WinnLite technology will increase the swing weight of the club dramatically. There was a driver that offered a WinnLite grip stock and a standard grip stock as an alternative the standard swing weighted to about D2. We through the same model driver on the scale with the winn grip and i think if i recall correctly it was a D9 or E0 or something insane but it didn't feel so heavy you couldn't swing it.

 

Majority of better players tend to like to be able to feel the head in the swing to manipulate the face easier and to create a smoother tempo. Not everyone is the same however.

 

This is the WinnLite Technology speech --> http://www.winngrips.com/technologies/winnlite

 

Now that I have two drivers, I can do a more interesting test. My Acer Leggera weighs 275g and my R11s weighs 335g, so there's a 60g difference. Initial testing only shows about 2-4mph difference, but I'll repeat the more rigorous test that I did later.

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Average of Driver #1: 116.8

 

Average of Driver #2: 116.5

 

 

 

Tossing out the first three swings of each, the averages 118.29 and 117.7. Assuming 2.5mph = 1 yard extra distance and using the difference of .59mph, that's 0.236 yards.

 

 

I have to say I found these results pretty shocking. I really was expecting a significant difference with a 60g weight difference.

 

(as an aside, last year I was swinging in the 90 SS range, so the orange whip and medicus are clearly helping, I'll write up a full review on those later)

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Driver #1	Driver #2
108mph	108mph
114mph	116mph
118mph	117mph
119mph	117mph
118mph	117mph
120mph	117mph
117mph	120mph
119mph	120mph
119mph	117mph
116mph	116mph

 

This is some data I have been looking at in your sample of SS.

 

Change between low swing speed and high swing speed

Driver #1 ~ 6mph

Driver #2 ~ 4mph

 

Total counts for same swing speeds

Driver #1 ~ 114 (1), 116 (1), 117 (1), 118 (2), 119 (3), 120 (1)

Driver #2 ~ 116 (2), 117 (5), 120 (2)

 

Change in mph from swing to swing

Driver #1 ~ +4 (114 to 118), +1 (118 to 119), -1 (119 to 118), +2 (118 to 120), -3 (120 to 117), +2 (117 to 119), 0 (119 to 119), -3 (119 to 117)

Driver #2 ~ +1 (166 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), +3 (117 to 120), 0 (120 to 120), -3 (120 to 117), -1 (117 to 116)

 

 

Ball Speed translates more into distance then swing speed, obviously if your smash factor on a 120mph SS is a 1 you will lose a lot of ball speed. If the smash factor is a perfect 1.50 smash factor you will get better ball speed with a slower swing speed.

 

Assuming you have a 100mph SS with a smash factor of 1.40 and a ball speed of 140mph... Then you take a swing and get 98mph SS and a 1.45 smash factor the ball speed increases to 145mph. With everything being equal you get about 2yards more carry from 1mph of ball speed, so the increase from 140 ball speed to 145 would be 10 additional yards swinging 2mph slower.

 

Tour players get an average of 1.48 (edited for correctness) on smash factor for their drives optimizing their distance by not swinging harder just making great contact with the ball.

 

If you were selecting a driver I would pick Driver #2 as you get very consistent swing speeds on this club. Use Driver #2 to optimize my conditions to maximize my launch angle, spin rate and get a consistent smash factor around 1.45 even if that means a slightly slower SS.


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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A few years ago, I tried the Winn Lite Grips and did see a 7 to 10 yard increase in distance on the driver. I was so impressed that I went home and ordered a whole set and regripped all my irons. This made the head feel much heavier, increased distance, and accuracy, and I loved them. For about a week and a half. They then started to wear and by the end of the month they were ragged and falling apart. So after two months I was regripping them again with a standard grip because I could not afford to spend $117 per month on new grips for a five yard gain.

 

I did reshaft my irons a couple of months ago with Dynalite shafts, 20 gms lighter, and did get the heavy head feel I like. I also have a precieved distance gain, but to be honest, I think it is more mental than anything else. I say this because I usually play the same course everyday. And I end up hitting the same clubs the same distance no matter what I do.

 

Last week, I went to a different course. Because I had never played it before, the Sky Caddie would say I was a certain distance from the hole, I would note the wind and the elevation change and then decide I needed to hit a particular iron a certain distance. And hit that club. I was somewhat astonished that I was hitting these the longer distance, the one I assumed I would be hitting at my home course but really was not.

 

When playing the three club match (listed on the thread One Club Match) I noticed that I was able to hit the hybrid and the wedge whatever distance I needed. So I am thinking that none of this really makes as much difference as what you think you are going to do.

 

By this I mean there are 4 par 5's on my course. The first one, I am afraid of and fear going in the water or out of bounds, and often do this. But I never hit the ball more than 250 yards on this hole. The next one is wide open and plays over a hill. A 275 yard carry to the top of the hill, between two trees will catch the down slope and roll another 50 to 75 yards. I almost always hit that exact spot. There is 15 feet between these trees and I hit it 19 out of 20 times. Leaving me a 175 to 150 yard shot to the green. The next one is wide open but up hill and once again I arrive at that hole thinking that the ball will not go far and it does not. 250 is about average. And the final par 5, I think that if I land just to the left of a tree with a slight draw it will hit the hard pan and run out to about 175 and it does.

 

So I am thinking that whatever we think we are going to do makes a whole lot more difference that what equipment we use. And whatever feels better to us is indeed better for us, individually.

 

Certainly, on a swing robot, you could get different results buy changing the weight because it does not care how something feels. I personally like a big grip, a light (feeling) shaft, and a heavier (feeling) head.

 

Another issue is the spin. On many lighter shafts the spin is much higher. For someone like me who creates a lot of spin, if I go with a light shaft I put way way way too much spin on the ball. So it does not matter how much faster I can swing the club if the ball is spinning 6000 rpms off of the driver. I actually have found my pitch mark in the fairway where the ball has hit and backed up with a driver. This is a big clue that perhaps I have too much spin. (Adilia NVS) This looked like a well struck 8 iron.


 

Driver:      :mizuno-small:  ST190G on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Fairway:   :mizuno-small:  ST190TS 15° on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Hybrids     :mizuno-small:  CLK 22 & 25 (set to 20° & 23°) on Fujikura SPEEDER

Irons:     :mizuno-small:  MP5 5-P on True Temper Dynamic Gold

Wedges: :mizuno-small: MP-T5 52*, 56* & 60* on True Temper Dynamic Gold Wedge

Putter:    :cameron-small: 2018 Select Newport 2

Balls:      :titelist-small: Pro V1X

Shoes:     :footjoy-small:

Range Finder: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated

 

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It is not my intent to be dissagreeable though the ave. PGA tour pro's smash factor with a driver is 1.49 according to the PGA stats...A nice smash factor table is on the Andrew Rice Golf site..He lists the ave for every club for both the PGA & LPGA players..Google him under "ave. PGA smash factor"....I just have a thing about accuracy when numbers ar used...Fairways & Greens 4ever...

 

I didn't think you were being 'disagreeable' lol, 1.48 is about right I updated my post for correctness as noted, at least it was in 2004 - 2008 --> http://blog.swingmangolf.com/files/trackmanpgatourdriverandirondistances.pdf

 

Anyways smash factor + ball speed = more distance without a lot of swing speed being increased. Now if you can pull at 1.48 on a 120mph SS you gonna bomb the heck out of it. would go further then a 1.48 at 118mph SS obviously.


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Driver #1	Driver #2
108mph	108mph
114mph	116mph
118mph	117mph
119mph	117mph
118mph	117mph
120mph	117mph
117mph	120mph
119mph	120mph
119mph	117mph
116mph	116mph

 

This is some data I have been looking at in your sample of SS.

 

Change between low swing speed and high swing speed

Driver #1 ~ 6mph

Driver #2 ~ 4mph

 

Total counts for same swing speeds

Driver #1 ~ 114 (1), 116 (1), 117 (1), 118 (2), 119 (3), 120 (1)

Driver #2 ~ 116 (2), 117 (5), 120 (2)

 

Change in mph from swing to swing

Driver #1 ~ +4 (114 to 118), +1 (118 to 119), -1 (119 to 118), +2 (118 to 120), -3 (120 to 117), +2 (117 to 119), 0 (119 to 119), -3 (119 to 117)

Driver #2 ~ +1 (166 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), +3 (117 to 120), 0 (120 to 120), -3 (120 to 117), -1 (117 to 116)

 

 

Ball Speed translates more into distance then swing speed, obviously if your smash factor on a 120mph SS is a 1 you will lose a lot of ball speed. If the smash factor is a perfect 1.50 smash factor you will get better ball speed with a slower swing speed.

 

Assuming you have a 100mph SS with a smash factor of 1.40 and a ball speed of 140mph... Then you take a swing and get 98mph SS and a 1.45 smash factor the ball speed increases to 145mph. With everything being equal you get about 2yards more carry from 1mph of ball speed, so the increase from 140 ball speed to 145 would be 10 additional yards swinging 2mph slower.

 

Tour players get an average of 1.48 (edited for correctness) on smash factor for their drives optimizing their distance by not swinging harder just making great contact with the ball.

 

If you were selecting a driver I would pick Driver #2 as you get very consistent swing speeds on this club. Use Driver #2 to optimize my conditions to maximize my launch angle, spin rate and get a consistent smash factor around 1.45 even if that means a slightly slower SS.

 

Interesting way to look at the stats. Because both clubs were going esstentially the same speed, I'm not sure I'm ready to draw any conclusions about which is better. I think in the end it's like what RR said, go with what personally feels best for you. Alternatively, I think Tyk made a great point about lighter clubs, it's not about how hard you hit the first swing, it's about how hard you are swinging after 35 holes.

 

Two things I did when swinging:

 

1) No swing thoughts

2) No ball

 

The reason for #1 is I swing much better without a cluttered mind and with a loose body. The reason for #2 is I didn't want smash factor to be a consideration. By swinging as fast as I could and not factoring in ball distance, I was trying to reduce the amount of variables that could affect the conclusion.

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1) swing speed doesn't translate into distance exactly at 2.5 yards. It is more about energy transfer to the ball in the swing and ball speed that translates into distance. Thus the smash factor calculation, and max COR under USGA rules of 0.830. You can bust one at 130mph get a 1.30 smash factor

 

2) weight of the club head has nothing to do if you can swing it after 35 holes, a heaver weighted head will make the shaft flex more then if the lighter weighted head was placed on the same shaft. So the heavier head would give you a little more flex and kick for speed after 35 holes then the lighter one :)

 

Here is a really good explanation on smash factor --> http://www.planetruthgolf.com/PlayerResources/Forums/tabid/77/aft/28424/Default.aspx

 

Basically the lighter club is only worth it if you can get about the same smash factor as the the heaver head, then the 2mph more swing speed would translate into ball speed and more distance.

 

I have a 165ball speed average at a 112-115 swing speed... so roughly I am getting between 1.4732 and 1.4348 in terms of smash factor of the ball speed stays the same at 165mph. Now If i could keep the 1.4732 and have the 115 that bumps the ball speed to 169mph 4mph extra ball speed ~ 8 more yards of carry


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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1) swing speed doesn't translate into distance exactly at 2.5 yards. It is more about energy transfer to the ball in the swing and ball speed that translates into distance. Thus the smash factor calculation, and max COR under USGA rules of 0.830. You can bust one at 130mph get a 1.30 smash factor

 

Here is a really good explanation on smash factor --> http://www.planetruthgolf.com/PlayerResources/Forums/tabid/77/aft/28424/Default.aspx

 

Basically the lighter club is only worth it if you can get about the same smash factor as the the heaver head, then the 2mph more swing speed would translate into ball speed and more distance.

 

I have a 165ball speed average at a 112-115 swing speed... so roughly I am getting between 1.4732 and 1.4348 in terms of smash factor of the ball speed stays the same at 165mph. Now If i could keep the 1.4732 and have the 115 that bumps the ball speed to 169mph 4mph extra ball speed ~ 8 more yards of carry

 

I promise I do understand smash factor and why factors into total distance, but whenever you do an experiment, you want to reduce the number of variables as much as possible in order to come to a better conclusion. By assuming a smash factor of 1.5, then swing speed is all that is taken into account. By swinging as fast as I can each time, I'm removing the human element of guessing what an 80% swing is.

 

There are a few variables I couldn't remove (for now), mainly the swing weights were not the same between the two clubs and the club head shape was not the same.

 

 

2) weight of the club head has nothing to do if you can swing it after 35 holes, a heaver weighted head will make the shaft flex more then if the lighter weighted head was placed on the same shaft. So the heavier head would give you a little more flex and kick for speed after 35 holes then the lighter one :)

 

I'm not sure I completely buy that there is a significant effect when a club head is lighter. Most driver heads weigh 200g, driver #1's head is 190g. 10g at the tip isn't going to do a huge amount to the shaft flex, though as clubs get longer the effect will increase. I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong here though, these are just my assumptions.

 

But as a simple test, swing a regular hammer a hundred times, then swing a sledge hammer a hundred times and tell me there's no difference :). Going from a 335g club to a 275g club is an 18% weight reduction and could be significant for some people.

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There are so many things here that you are not taking into account like spin, and shaft flex, and the technologies that add kick to the shafts, but there is one thing that is glaring to me and your hammer example really brought it home.

 

 

Newton's 2 law of motion says that force = mass x acceleration. So let us say that you have a club that weighs 325 grams and you swing it at 116.65 mph, after you convert so that all the units are right then we find that you have struck that ball with a force of call it 17 newtons or 3.8 pounds of force. Now if you stike the ball at the same speed but the club now weighs 265 grams you have a force of about 14 newtons or 3.14 pounds of force. Now cutting to the chase, in order to hit the ball with the same for with a lighter club you need to swing the club at 143 mph.

 

So while you may be able to generate more speed with a lighter club, which you have not proven, you can not generate as much force as you can with a club that weighs more.

 

The fallacy of this arguement is that you strike the ball with the head of the club. If the head weighs the same then it makes sense to lighten the shaft and grip and other weight. Since we are almost there in this arguement, you can effect the swing speed by lightening the arms also. Whether your wear a watch while playing golf or a golf glove or a heavy ring, can affect the swing speed.

 

OEM's do not try to lower the weight of the head of the club for this reason. They want to make the components light and then weight in different locations to effect ball flight but if you simply make the head lighter to speed up the swing speed you are making a grave error.

 

I went back through here and tried to glean what part of the club was lighter and it looked as if you did not say what was lighter, just overall club weight.

 

Arm length is also a determining factor. While we can not alter that, just look at Michelle Wie and Bubba Watson. They have long and skinny arms. Since the pivot point is the spine than they have an advantage. At my club we have two guys that are 6'10" tall. They both bomb the ball because when you add the drive length to they arm length they generate huge club head speed. Both of them use belly putters but they use them like standard putter.


 

Driver:      :mizuno-small:  ST190G on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Fairway:   :mizuno-small:  ST190TS 15° on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Hybrids     :mizuno-small:  CLK 22 & 25 (set to 20° & 23°) on Fujikura SPEEDER

Irons:     :mizuno-small:  MP5 5-P on True Temper Dynamic Gold

Wedges: :mizuno-small: MP-T5 52*, 56* & 60* on True Temper Dynamic Gold Wedge

Putter:    :cameron-small: 2018 Select Newport 2

Balls:      :titelist-small: Pro V1X

Shoes:     :footjoy-small:

Range Finder: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated

 

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There are so many things here that you are not taking into account like spin, and shaft flex, and the technologies that add kick to the shafts, but there is one thing that is glaring to me and your hammer example really brought it home.

 

 

Newton's 2 law of motion says that force = mass x acceleration. So let us say that you have a club that weighs 325 grams and you swing it at 116.65 mph, after you convert so that all the units are right then we find that you have struck that ball with a force of call it 17 newtons or 3.8 pounds of force. Now if you stike the ball at the same speed but the club now weighs 265 grams you have a force of about 14 newtons or 3.14 pounds of force. Now cutting to the chase, in order to hit the ball with the same for with a lighter club you need to swing the club at 143 mph.

 

So while you may be able to generate more speed with a lighter club, which you have not proven, you can not generate as much force as you can with a club that weighs more.

 

The fallacy of this arguement is that you strike the ball with the head of the club. If the head weighs the same then it makes sense to lighten the shaft and grip and other weight. Since we are almost there in this arguement, you can effect the swing speed by lightening the arms also. Whether your wear a watch while playing golf or a golf glove or a heavy ring, can affect the swing speed.

 

OEM's do not try to lower the weight of the head of the club for this reason. They want to make the components light and then weight in different locations to effect ball flight but if you simply make the head lighter to speed up the swing speed you are making a grave error.

 

I went back through here and tried to glean what part of the club was lighter and it looked as if you did not say what was lighter, just overall club weight.

 

Arm length is also a determining factor. While we can not alter that, just look at Michelle Wie and Bubba Watson. They have long and skinny arms. Since the pivot point is the spine than they have an advantage. At my club we have two guys that are 6'10" tall. They both bomb the ball because when you add the drive length to they arm length they generate huge club head speed. Both of them use belly putters but they use them like standard putter.

 

Yes, arm length, weight on the hands, spin, shaft flex, etc will affect overall distance, but the argument for lighter clubs is that they can be swung faster and therefore generate greater speed.

 

I think you did hit on a possible major flaw in my tests though. The head of driver #1 is 190g and the head of driver #2 is 200g. Thus the drag coefficient is going to affect driver #1 more than driver #2. This could explain why the swing speeds were so similar. Unfortunately, I don't have another shaft I can swap into my R11s to make a more accurate test.

 

I did look around at various lightweight clubs. The Cleveland 270 has a 39g shaft and a 25g grip, so it still has a 200g head. I also looked at the Tour Edge XGC-4, TM Superfast 2.0, and Adams Speedline Ultralight. All have 200g heads. The only heads I could find that went lower than 200g were the Acer Leggera, Maltby BM3 (if you swap out the weight), and Wishon 739 CCG.

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Yes, arm length, weight on the hands, spin, shaft flex, etc will affect overall distance, but the argument for lighter clubs is that they can be swung faster and therefore generate greater speed.

 

I think you did hit on a major flaw in my tests though. The head of driver #1 is 190g and the head of driver #2 is 200g. Thus the drag coefficient is going to affect driver #1 more than driver #2. This could easily explain why the swing speeds were so similar. Unfortunately, I don't have another shaft I can swap into my R11s to make a more accurate test.

 

I did look around at various lightweight clubs. The Cleveland 270 has a 39g shaft and a 25g grip, so it still has a 200g head. I also looked at the Tour Edge XGC-4, TM Superfast 2.0, and Adams Speedline Ultralight. All have 200g heads. The only heads I could find that went lower than 200g were the Acer Leggera and Maltby BM3 if you swap out the weight.

 

But that is the point of my arguement. You do not want or probably can not find a head lighter than 200 grams. Now with these number plugged into my arguement, I do everything on a spreadsheet because I am lazy and do not want to have to constantly punch in number in a calculator.

 

Your 116.65 swing speed with a 200 gram head means you hit with a 10.4 newton force. To get the same force with a 190 gram head you have to have a swing speed of 123 mph.

 

Also drag would be more affected by the aerodynamics of the club than the weight.

 

Now I do not know if changing the swing weight has the same effect as changing the overall weight. I would think a heavier head would swing faster.

 

I think this fixation on swing speed is misplaced. I can swing really fast. I can hit the ball 350 yards everytime. 200 yards down the fairway and 150 yards right of the fairway. It makes no difference how far you hit the ball. It only matters how far off line you hit the ball.


 

Driver:      :mizuno-small:  ST190G on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Fairway:   :mizuno-small:  ST190TS 15° on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Hybrids     :mizuno-small:  CLK 22 & 25 (set to 20° & 23°) on Fujikura SPEEDER

Irons:     :mizuno-small:  MP5 5-P on True Temper Dynamic Gold

Wedges: :mizuno-small: MP-T5 52*, 56* & 60* on True Temper Dynamic Gold Wedge

Putter:    :cameron-small: 2018 Select Newport 2

Balls:      :titelist-small: Pro V1X

Shoes:     :footjoy-small:

Range Finder: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated

 

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