Q & A with Bodybuilding Golf Pro Michael Manavian

[GolfSpy Dave 1,500]

As someone new to this information, can you post the long form of the abbreviations too so I can follow along?

BCAA's?

[caddyjoe77 9]

As someone new to this information, can you post the long form of the abbreviations too so I can follow along?

BCAA's?

 

Branch Chain Amino Acids - Building blocks of Protein. IM sure Michael can give you a greater answer, but here is a link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/bcaa.html

[GolfSpy Dave 1,500]

Branch Chain Amino Acids - Building blocks of Protein. IM sure Michael can give you a greater answer, but here is a link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/bcaa.html

Thanks. Are the essential aromatic amino acids not as important for the muscles (phenylalanine and tryptophan). Trp is found in relatively high amounts in turkey. Phe in diet coke.

[Manavs 1]

Hi Michael

 

First of all, thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my questions. Great idea about making your own thread as well.

 

I can definitely swing in 6 hard boiled egg whites, The 50 G protein shake shouldnt be an issue. It should just be straight up whey protein isolate correct?

 

Thanks again, i will take a look at those BCAA's

 

Joe

Your welcome Joe and glad your here - to answer your question - id go wth 6 egg whites and eat 2 of the yolks. and then have a 50g protein isolate with a 1/3cup of almonds (any nut will do switch them up), or a tablespoon of a nut butter (almond butter, peanut butter etc).

 

the fats will slow down the digestion of the proteins, and keep you fuller longer.

 

Thanks. Are the essential aromatic amino acids not as important for the muscles (phenylalanine and tryptophan). Trp is found in relatively high amounts in turkey. Phe in diet coke.

i wouldnt be drinking diet cokes for a source of nutrients lol

 

the importance of isoleucine, leucine, and valine are the most important for maintaining lean muscle mass 70% of your muscles are made up of the BCAA's. it all depends on your goal really, as an athlete, i want to perform using my muscles at their peak. BCAA's do a lot more than just build muscle, they keep you from going catabolic, and keep your adrenaline, and cortisol (the danger hormones) at bay.

 

warning science geek stuff below -

 

“Branched-chain amino acids activate key enzymes in protein synthesis after physical exercise”. J Nutr. 2006 Jan;136(1 Suppl):269S-73S researchers again validated, “BCAA's (leucine, isoleucine, and valine), particularly leucine, have anabolic effects on protein metabolism by increasing the rate of protein synthesis and decreasing the rate of protein degradation in resting human muscle.”

[Matt Saternus 28]

This thread makes my head hurt, it's high school chemistry all over again.

 

All this info really does make me want to examine the way I'm eating and shape my diet more carefully. I appreciate all the help.

[GolfSpy Dave 1,500]

Your welcome Joe and glad your here - to answer your question - id go wth 6 egg whites and eat 2 of the yolks. and then have a 50g protein isolate with a 1/3cup of almonds (any nut will do switch them up), or a tablespoon of a nut butter (almond butter, peanut butter etc).

 

the fats will slow down the digestion of the proteins, and keep you fuller longer.

 

 

i wouldnt be drinking diet cokes for a source of nutrients lol

 

the importance of isoleucine, leucine, and valine are the most important for maintaining lean muscle mass 70% of your muscles are made up of the BCAA's. it all depends on your goal really, as an athlete, i want to perform using my muscles at their peak. BCAA's do a lot more than just build muscle, they keep you from going catabolic, and keep your adrenaline, and cortisol (the danger hormones) at bay.

 

warning science geek stuff below -

 

“Branched-chain amino acids activate key enzymes in protein synthesis after physical exercise”. J Nutr. 2006 Jan;136(1 Suppl):269S-73S researchers again validated, “BCAA's (leucine, isoleucine, and valine), particularly leucine, have anabolic effects on protein metabolism by increasing the rate of protein synthesis and decreasing the rate of protein degradation in resting human muscle.”

 

So say one has a geeky sciencey kind of gig and went to read the journal article cited and found it interesting and wanted more.

Gene expression and regulation of enzymatic rate is a bit of my day to day. I find different expression systems and pathways to be interesting. I had not heard of this effect and I want to find out more.

 

Maybe a resource/reference list that you have of journal articles.

 

Here is the link to the article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16365096?ordinalpos=1&itool=PPMCLayout.PPMCAppController.PPMCArticlePage.PPMCPubmedRA&linkpos=5

 

That aside is it better to seek foods with BCAA's or are supplements required?

[Manavs 1]

This thread makes my head hurt, it's high school chemistry all over again.

 

All this info really does make me want to examine the way I'm eating and shape my diet more carefully. I appreciate all the help.

 

wow - then you must really not have liked what sactown wrote below lol

 

So say one has a geeky sciencey kind of gig and went to read the journal article cited and found it interesting and wanted more.

Gene expression and regulation of enzymatic rate is a bit of my day to day. I find different expression systems and pathways to be interesting. I had not heard of this effect and I want to find out more.

 

Maybe a resource/reference list that you have of journal articles.

 

Here is the link to the article: http://www.ncbi.nlm....medRA&linkpos=5

 

That aside is it better to seek foods with BCAA's or are supplements required?

 

So i guess hypothetically IF someone enjoyed that sciencey geeky type of stuff, it would behoove me to try and get my scientist buddy who is the head of the independent clinical research dept our company hires to validate our products along with show us what is in our competitors products.

 

He has access to one of the coolest toys ive ever even heard of. Remember the genom project (MIT). he is about to be the director of a major university that is hiring him to teach them how to use it and run the department. the computer tells you with this product, genetically these markers get triggered. so no longer can a person say they failed a drug test because of a tainted product. you tested positive because you took that product and not ours.

 

also using this tool we can see exactly how a product can help, or harm you. we are releasing shortly a review of how our competitors have a product that is fabricated on lies and mis-truths - i'll keep you all posted for sure.

 

to answer your question - and thank you for looking into the articles - BCAA's have their place in both athletes and regular people in improving quality of life. The anti-catabolic effect as well as andrenaline and cortisol suppression are just too good to pass up for in between meals. I don't see how one can get enough BCAA's through food.

[caddyjoe77 9]

wow - then you must really not have liked what sactown wrote below lol

 

 

 

So i guess hypothetically IF someone enjoyed that sciencey geeky type of stuff, it would behoove me to try and get my scientist buddy who is the head of the independent clinical research dept our company hires to validate our products along with show us what is in our competitors products.

 

He has access to one of the coolest toys ive ever even heard of. Remember the genom project (MIT). he is about to be the director of a major university that is hiring him to teach them how to use it and run the department. the computer tells you with this product, genetically these markers get triggered. so no longer can a person say they failed a drug test because of a tainted product. you tested positive because you took that product and not ours.

 

also using this tool we can see exactly how a product can help, or harm you. we are releasing shortly a review of how our competitors have a product that is fabricated on lies and mis-truths - i'll keep you all posted for sure.

 

to answer your question - and thank you for looking into the articles - BCAA's have their place in both athletes and regular people in improving quality of life. The anti-catabolic effect as well as andrenaline and cortisol suppression are just too good to pass up for in between meals. I don't see how one can get enough BCAA's through food.

 

thanks for the link Michael. Now you have me more intriqued about BCAA's.

 

I am 6'1 and 239(yes p90x does work...its slowly coming off!) and was wondering if this was a decent "ballpark" type figure for the amount of BCAA's one should have daily?

 

L-Leucine 500 mg

L-Isoleucine 250 mg

L-Valine 250 mg

 

Does the intake depend on body type and weight?

 

Thanks as always

Joe

[Manavs 1]

thanks for the link Michael. Now you have me more intriqued about BCAA's.

 

I am 6'1 and 239(yes p90x does work...its slowly coming off!) and was wondering if this was a decent "ballpark" type figure for the amount of BCAA's one should have daily?

 

L-Leucine 500 mg

L-Isoleucine 250 mg

L-Valine 250 mg

 

Does the intake depend on body type and weight?

 

Thanks as always

Joe

 

dammit thats above my paygrade. but lemme do some math -

 

insert another math warning here

 

lets put it this way - the common suggestion is to put 6-8 scoops of BCAA's in a gallon and drink it throughout the day. 10 for a really huge guy, and 6 for a my female competitors. if you dont want to carry a gallon jug, i say at least drink a serving during training and in the middle of the night to prevent catabolism, additionally have one in between meals.

 

each scoop has 7 grams of a 2:1:1 mix of BCAA's - so if my math is correct thats -

 

3,500mg of Leucine

1,750mg of Isoleucine

and 1,750mg of Valine

per scoop

 

your second question yes - the serving recommendation is by bodyweight as the more lean muscle you have the greater the demand for BCAA's

 

1 scoop

2 scoops 150-200lbs

3 scoops >200lbs

 

so your numbers would be more along

10,500mg of Leucine

5,250mg of Isoleucine

and 5,250mg of Valine

per dose

 

thats some pretty serious muscle building aminos as long as your using forms of aminos that are bioavailable (that should keep you from asking math questions j/k LOL)

[GolfSpy Dave 1,500]

wow - then you must really not have liked what sactown wrote below lol

 

 

 

So i guess hypothetically IF someone enjoyed that sciencey geeky type of stuff, it would behoove me to try and get my scientist buddy who is the head of the independent clinical research dept our company hires to validate our products along with show us what is in our competitors products.

 

He has access to one of the coolest toys ive ever even heard of. Remember the genom project (MIT). he is about to be the director of a major university that is hiring him to teach them how to use it and run the department. the computer tells you with this product, genetically these markers get triggered. so no longer can a person say they failed a drug test because of a tainted product. you tested positive because you took that product and not ours.

 

also using this tool we can see exactly how a product can help, or harm you. we are releasing shortly a review of how our competitors have a product that is fabricated on lies and mis-truths - i'll keep you all posted for sure.

 

to answer your question - and thank you for looking into the articles - BCAA's have their place in both athletes and regular people in improving quality of life. The anti-catabolic effect as well as andrenaline and cortisol suppression are just too good to pass up for in between meals.

This is cool, thanks a bunch. That magazine had all kinds of cool stuff. Accidentally went to page 41 first and read that high intensity cardio goes after muscle not fat after the carbs are gone. Not very intuitive.

I feel like I am about kindergarten with this stuff, but it is fascinating. The tie in with human genome project and gene expression just makes it better for me. If I understand the chemistry, I am more likely to believe in it and do it.

 

I see what you mean about protein from food not having enough BCAA's to reach the required level. The post below mine (maybe above this one) mentioned specific powders and supplements. At 220 and 21% body fat, how much am I looking at needing and does the supplement vary on gym days vs. non gym days?

[Manavs 1]

This is cool, thanks a bunch. That magazine had all kinds of cool stuff. Accidentally went to page 41 first and read that high intensity cardio goes after muscle not fat after the carbs are gone. Not very intuitive.

I feel like I am about kindergarten with this stuff, but it is fascinating. The tie in with human genome project and gene expression just makes it better for me. If I understand the chemistry, I am more likely to believe in it and do it.

 

I see what you mean about protein from food not having enough BCAA's to reach the required level. The post below mine (maybe above this one) mentioned specific powders and supplements. At 220 and 21% body fat, how much am I looking at needing and does the supplement vary on gym days vs. non gym days?

 

My pleasure sactown -

 

Little tid bits like the cardio are very cool. But always think of the body in terms of a matrix and not linear. For example, if your doing a ketogenic diet where your eating moderate fats and low carbs, your body will convert only what it needs into glucose and no more. for that type of diet you need a low intensity. but if your eating moderate carbs as your fuel source and low fats then you will benefit from high intensity cardio to burn off any excess carbs so they dont store fat.

 

its a big mathematical equation where all the variables are somehow tied into eachother. think xmas lights, one goes out they all get affected.

 

i'd put you still at the 3scoop (21g) mark per. its only going to make you leaner and keep you more anabolic(growing). keep it the same on gym days and non - as your body mass is still the same on both days. you are feeding the lean mass, not the energy output levels.(thats dietary carbs and/or fat)

[GolfSpy Dave 1,500]

I have one other sort of body/fitness question to bounce off you...

For about two weeks now, I have stopped drinking coffee during the day and substituted bottled water.

I still drink 2 cups in the morning, but the two that I typically drank during the day are gone.

 

What is weird is that my energy is much better and more level. Fewer lows, as a bar, typically Atkins type of Cliff's Builder bar will take care of the low.

Can I attribute this all to better hydration by removing the diuretic in caffeine and boosting water intake, or is there another body system involved?

[Manavs 1]

I have one other sort of body/fitness question to bounce off you...

For about two weeks now, I have stopped drinking coffee during the day and substituted bottled water.

I still drink 2 cups in the morning, but the two that I typically drank during the day are gone.

 

What is weird is that my energy is much better and more level. Fewer lows, as a bar, typically Atkins type of Cliff's Builder bar will take care of the low.

Can I attribute this all to better hydration by removing the diuretic in caffeine and boosting water intake, or is there another body system involved?

 

im a big fan of caffeine used properly. there is a caffeine crash that some experience. sounds like by removing the afternoon coffee's plus water increase has obviously worked for you. i'm not a doctor and nor do i play one on tv - so your second part of that question may have an adrenal response -

 

I found some interesting half life things on wikipedia that help you find your why - if its in your system for 5 hours, then the additional cups later in the day could be keeping you awake or at least not sleeping as well, therefore, your not as refreshed and struggling the next day with energy and repeating the same cycle. again just a thought -

 

Metabolism and half-life

 

Caffeine is metabolized in the liver into three primary metabolites: paraxanthine (84%), theobromine (12%), and theophylline (4%)

Caffeine from coffee or other beverages is absorbed by the stomach and small intestine within 45 minutes of ingestion and then distributed throughout all tissues of the body.[45] It is eliminated by first-order kinetics.[46] Caffeine can also be ingested rectally, evidenced by the formulation of suppositories of ergotamine tartrate and caffeine (for the relief of migraine)[47] and chlorobutanol and caffeine (for the treatment of hyperemesis).[48]

The half-life of caffeine —the time required for the body to eliminate one-half of the total amount of caffeine — varies widely among individuals according to such factors as age, liver function, pregnancy, some concurrent medications, and the level of enzymes in the liver needed for caffeine metabolism. In healthy adults, caffeine's half-life is approximately 4.9 hours. In women taking oral contraceptives, this is increased to 5–10 hours,[49] and in pregnant women the half-life is roughly 9–11 hours.[50] Caffeine can accumulate in individuals with severe liver disease, increasing its half-life up to 96 hours.[51] In infants and young children, the half-life may be longer than in adults; half-life in a newborn baby may be as long as 30 hours. Other factors such as smoking can shorten caffeine's half-life.[52] Fluvoxamine reduced the clearance of caffeine by 91.3%, and prolonged its elimination half-life by 11.4-fold (from 4.9 hours to 56 hours).[53]

Caffeine is metabolized in the liver by the cytochrome P450 oxidase enzyme system (to be specific, the 1A2 isozyme) into three metabolic dimethylxanthines,[54] each of which having its own effects on the body:

Paraxanthine (84%): Has the effect of increasing lipolysis, leading to elevated glycerol and free fatty acid levels in the blood plasma.

Theobromine (12%): Dilates blood vessels and increases urine volume. Theobromine is also the principal alkaloid in the cocoa bean, and therefore chocolate.

Theophylline (4%): Relaxes smooth muscles of the bronchi, and is used to treat asthma. The therapeutic dose of theophylline, however, is many times greater than the levels attained from caffeine metabolism.

Each of these metabolites is further metabolized and then excreted in the urine.

[GolfSpy Dave 1,500]

Yet again good info

No idea about caffeine half life. Never thought of it that way. First ingestion at 6am and then second at 930 puts me within the first decay. Another cup at 230 is still close to the second one. No problem sleeping, but was prone to the cat nap. No quick nap since dropping supplemental coffee.

 

Didn't really need to know that I can get caffeine in rectal delivery form though...

[caddyjoe77 9]

 

dammit thats above my paygrade. but lemme do some math -

 

insert another math warning here

 

lets put it this way - the common suggestion is to put 6-8 scoops of BCAA's in a gallon and drink it throughout the day. 10 for a really huge guy, and 6 for a my female competitors. if you dont want to carry a gallon jug, i say at least drink a serving during training and in the middle of the night to prevent catabolism, additionally have one in between meals.

 

each scoop has 7 grams of a 2:1:1 mix of BCAA's - so if my math is correct thats -

 

3,500mg of Leucine

1,750mg of Isoleucine

and 1,750mg of Valine

per scoop

 

your second question yes - the serving recommendation is by bodyweight as the more lean muscle you have the greater the demand for BCAA's

 

1 scoop

2 scoops 150-200lbs

3 scoops >200lbs

 

so your numbers would be more along

10,500mg of Leucine

5,250mg of Isoleucine

and 5,250mg of Valine

per dose

 

thats some pretty serious muscle building aminos as long as your using forms of aminos that are bioavailable (that should keep you from asking math questions j/k LOL)

 

I was checking out the chained BCAA stack...looks really impressive and i am going to get some. Ok, so im wondering that once i reach my goal which is 205....i was there once and looked great.....so thats my goal and if i get below that i will be happy. So...even when i drop the weight...read fat deposits lol....continue with the 3 scoops. The way i figure it, and i could be wrong, but the lighter one gets, then i would need to continue intaking that much as to not get catabolic and turn it to fat correct? Something along those lines?

 

Math?? I love math!!....im getting my minor in it lol. So you mean arganine? as in: "L-Arginine L-Malate is a excellent form of arginine which designed to pump blood to your muscles,improve nutrient delivery to muscle cells,and create & sustain"pumps""....from http://www.honestjoy...20DL-Malate.htm

 

BTW, i have implemented your recommendations with the egg whites and the protein in the afternoon. I dont feel as worn out at the end of a work out now....you know the burned out dead muscle feeling...but its a good feeling.

 

So here is my analytical minded nerd thought: Most folks say your body cannot absorb more than 20 ish grams of protein in one serving....so thereby taking BCAA's are you actually tricking your body into being able to absorb more protein? Which makes more muscle mass and burns more fatty deposits as long as you stay anabolic and not catabolic?

 

thanks again for your help

 

Joe

[Manavs 1]

I was checking out the chained BCAA stack...looks really impressive and i am going to get some. Ok, so im wondering that once i reach my goal which is 205....i was there once and looked great.....so thats my goal and if i get below that i will be happy. So...even when i drop the weight...read fat deposits lol....continue with the 3 scoops. The way i figure it, and i could be wrong, but the lighter one gets, then i would need to continue intaking that much as to not get catabolic and turn it to fat correct? Something along those lines?

 

Math?? I love math!!....im getting my minor in it lol. So you mean arganine? as in: "L-Arginine L-Malate is a excellent form of arginine which designed to pump blood to your muscles,improve nutrient delivery to muscle cells,and create & sustain"pumps""....from http://www.honestjoy.cn/Product/L-Arginine%20DL-Malate.htm

 

BTW, i have implemented your recommendations with the egg whites and the protein in the afternoon. I dont feel as worn out at the end of a work out now....you know the burned out dead muscle feeling...but its a good feeling.

 

So here is my analytical minded nerd thought: Most folks say your body cannot absorb more than 20 ish grams of protein in one serving....so thereby taking BCAA's are you actually tricking your body into being able to absorb more protein? Which makes more muscle mass and burns more fatty deposits as long as you stay anabolic and not catabolic?

 

thanks again for your help

 

Joe

 

No worries Joe, anything i can do for this forum -

 

Here's the thing, the idea is to maintain or increase lean mass and lose body fat. Your goal of 205 is a little misleading because it is the total of both lean mass and fat (plus bones). So depending how fat you actually are now - you did say 21% at 220 - so roughly 48.4 lbs of fat putting you at 171.6 lbs of lean mass - give or take - call it 5lbs.

 

I'm willing to say that a better goal would be to increase your lean muscle mass to 180lbs lowering your BF to 25lbs and putting you at the magical 205#. that would have your BF at ~13.8%.

 

I neglected to do this math at the onset of the prior post and apologize. but as they say in the NFL - upon further review, 2 scoops for your lean mass would be a more appropriate dose - then again bodybuilders tend to overdo things and use big overflowing scoops. in this case would not hurt and def help.

 

Good to hear on the egg whites and protein - well done!

 

re: protein intake - they are right and they are also wrong. the studies don't take into consideration the actual lean mass which is what in the end creates the demand - lets use yourself, 220# 21%bf the RDA protein intake for you is the same for a 220lbs bodybuilder with 2%bf? cmon it doesnt make sense. the empirical data behind the supplementation of 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight for normal humans - 1.5g for athletes and 2.0g for BB's works! the problem is in the actual food, to build muscle you need copious amounts of food because of all the waste (reads catabolic) materials found in the food. If you were to design a perfect protein for humans - you would get zero waste and literally your excrement would not stink. (we happen to be in the process of making this product for the past 10 years)

 

but if you were to turn on the anabolic signal via the branch chains - YES that would get the process going and making your body more ready to accept the food. Thats why i take a serving of BCAA's 15 mins before i eat. Anabolism builds and catabolism destroys. BCAA's are anabolic, and anti-catabolic by nature.

 

MM

[caddyjoe77 9]

HI Michael

 

actually it was 239..so probably more like somewhere around 28 percent. I dont have calipers to give an accurate test, but i can tell you that if i measure with a sewing tape around my bellybutton its 39.5 and my neck is 16.5....I know that is not the best way to measure but that should be a rough idea. Yes, i got really fat over the last 6 months when i wasnt allowed to do anything but eat and drink...which included beers...far too many. Regardless i am making the change necessary.

 

thats the reason that i figured my goal should be at around 200. I will google later to see what formula you are actually using to figure out the bone structure and fat vs muscle. right now i have to get to work....

[Manavs 1]

HI Michael

 

actually it was 239..so probably more like somewhere around 28 percent. I dont have calipers to give an accurate test, but i can tell you that if i measure with a sewing tape around my bellybutton its 39.5 and my neck is 16.5....I know that is not the best way to measure but that should be a rough idea. Yes, i got really fat over the last 6 months when i wasnt allowed to do anything but eat and drink...which included beers...far too many. Regardless i am making the change necessary.

 

thats the reason that i figured my goal should be at around 200. I will google later to see what formula you are actually using to figure out the bone structure and fat vs muscle. right now i have to get to work....

 

Personally, I wouldnt worry about bodyfat calipers, tape measures or even the scale for that matter. i use them all as tools but really its the mirror that will tell you everything you need to know - are you where you want to be - if not make the necessary adjustments to one of the variables. (btw the DEXA is the only true accurate way to measure BF).

 

Best

Michael

[NGage 4]

Ok....my brain hurts from reading all that.

 

 

How about a simple and quick recommendation for pre and post workout shakes?

[Manavs 1]

Ok....my brain hurts from reading all that.

 

 

How about a simple and quick recommendation for pre and post workout shakes?

 

My most humblest of apologize NGage.

 

 

Quick answer - Pre- An whey protein isolate shake with waxy maize starch and a tablespoon of peanut butter.

 

Post - same minus the peanut butter

 

Long winded answer -

 

I'd rather eat a light protein like egg whites with oatmeal 90mins before working out, then have a pre workout NO drink . Drink my BCAA's during the workout. Followed by another serving of BCAA's post with waxy maize starch immediately post. 20mins later have chicken and rice.

 

I have found alot of research in the last few months taking me away from shakes and using more amino acids and real foods.