Shaft or the head?

[RoverRick]

As far as being a high spin player, I just remembered a golfing buddy of mine says that he can always tell when my ball is passing by because he can hear it spinning. He says it sounds like a top spinning around as it comes to the green. Now that I think about it he is not the only one I have heard that from.

 

I do not launch the ball all that high. Not that I can not, but we have a lot of wind here and high balls, with lots of spin, are not a very good combination.

 

As an aside, I downloaded two "wind caddie" apps a few weeks ago. Yes, I know they are illegal in tournaments. And they are supposed to tell how much the wind affects the ball. Well, not my shots. Side to side movement are about right. And the "tailwind" is not far off, but a "headwind" is not even in the ball park. I have been wondering if they made a unit error. Because they say it will be 15 feet short and mine is 15 yards short.

[BIG STU]

My experience? Little bit of column A, little bit of column B. Switching shafts can have a big impact on ball flight and distance. Switching heads can do the same.

I will agree with you it is a combination of both and I would also say he has hit on possibly a perfect combination for him may be hard to duplicate with different heads. He seems really pumped up by this find I would suggest buying that paticular set

[JMiller]

That's the thing, when comparing comparably priced clubs, I do think Mizuno comes out on top (I haven't tried the W/S), but there was only a tiny difference in feel between my Dynacrafts and the Mizunos.

 

I haven't tested FG Tour V2 or FG Tour as a Players CB against Mizuno only the blades.

[JMiller]

FWIW, I did hit/play the WS FG Tour when I was Looking @ the MP-63s & to make a long story short, no comparison..Not even in same class..JMHO..Maybe they could go up against the JPX-800 Pro as far as apple to apple, though to compare 'em to the 63s is an apple to oranges comparison, from design to performance..With all due respect to Ricky & Paddy...Seriously...Fairways & Greens 4ever...

 

I figured as much, I figured that W/S really just did it well in the blade lines and the Players CB well not sure, FG Tour seemed more GI to me then Players CB from reading specs and looking at it but W/S Tour V2 got good reviews here on MGS and looks more like Titleist AP2s maybe, haven't hit any CBs from W/S only speaking on their blade

 

When it comes to a Players CB like MP-63 i haven't hit something better yet I'll be honest

[RookieBlue7]

RR: If you're looking for an iron shaft to bring down spin, nothing (in my experience) compares to the KBS C-Taper. You will have a tough time finding it on fitting carts because it's relatively new, but it's worth checking out. FWIW, the TaylorMade cart at my shop has a couple C-Tapers. Even if you're not interested in the TMAG heads, you could get a feel for the shaft.

 

 

I'd put the Dynamic Gold Tour Issues up against the C-Tapers any day of the week. I will say, from a builder's perspective, throw conventional wisdom out the window when building a set with C-Tapers. They swingweight differently than LOTS of shafts due to how they're balanced. I love the C-Tapers, but I also love the DG Tour Issues. Neither are a bad choice, just depends on feel. To me, and it's saying a lot because I love the feel of the KBS Tours, just wished the spin wasn't off the charts for me, the Dynamic Gold TI's feel more smooth than the C-Tapers. One thing about Kim Braly's product, though, you definitely know when you've missed one with the C-Tapers, because the sound changes tremendously.

[RoverRick]

I, of course, did not hit many good shots today at the golf store but got to try out the KBS Shafts. The Tour 90's were too weak, too high, and too much spin. and way too short. The same could be said with the S300s except the S300's are not too high. On the few good ones I did hit, most bad ones were pulls from coming over the top, something about hitting in a building does not agree with me. It was the wifes birthday so I could not spend as much time as I wanted with these shafts.

 

Matt thanks for the tip on the TMag cart.

 

I was able to get the R11 head with a C Taper and a Tour 90. I found an Adams a12 Black with a Tour. I suspect that the really good numbers I got with the Tour were partially cause by the a12 head. It was superior to the R11 IMO. And before you say that I do not like TMag, I will say that I like TMag better than Adams. I have never it an Adams club I liked, until today. I have seen some I liked but not when I hit them.

 

I did find that I got better results from the PX6.5 than the PX5.5.

 

Not sure that the good numbers are but I was getting with the R11 6 iron with KBS Tour 78 mph head, 112 mph ball speed, 16.4 degree launch, and 6600 rpm back spin, 265 side spin, and 166 carry.

 

With the R11 6 iron C Taper about the same speed 14.6 launch, and 6140 back spin. and 172 carry.

 

The PX 6.5 were not lots of different from the tours and and c tapers but the dgs were 155 carry

 

155 is about what I get now out of my 6 iron.(One set of irons anyway.) I did not take my clubs to see what type of spin and all I am getting now. but I would guess that it was more spin. The fitter guy said those numbers with the KBS shafts were not bad. And even thought that the flight was angles and spin were high I would definately be holding greens with a 6 iron.

 

I think it may come down to do I want the black shaft or the satin finish.

[Super Tuna]

RR: If you're looking for an iron shaft to bring down spin, nothing (in my experience) compares to the KBS C-Taper.

 

Which I still find fascinating since they did neither for me. VS the tour sure, but they weren't even close to the DG's in launch, though pretty close in spin. Still higher in both though for me.

 

The guy at GG did say KBS Tours and Project X will go lower than DGs though, which I thought strange because the True Temper website lists the DGs are low launch shafts.

 

Eh?

That's certainly the first time I've ever heard that from any one.

 

 

I'd put the Dynamic Gold Tour Issues up against the C-Tapers any day of the week. I will say, from a builder's perspective, throw conventional wisdom out the window when building a set with C-Tapers. They swingweight differently than LOTS of shafts due to how they're balanced. I love the C-Tapers, but I also love the DG Tour Issues. Neither are a bad choice, just depends on feel. To me, and it's saying a lot because I love the feel of the KBS Tours, just wished the spin wasn't off the charts for me, the Dynamic Gold TI's feel more smooth than the C-Tapers. One thing about Kim Braly's product, though, you definitely know when you've missed one with the C-Tapers, because the sound changes tremendously.

 

I'm right there with you RB, aside from the love of the feel of KBS Tours anyways which I could take or leave easily.

[GolfSpy WD]

I'd put the Dynamic Gold Tour Issues up against the C-Tapers any day of the week. I will say, from a builder's perspective, throw conventional wisdom out the window when building a set with C-Tapers. They swingweight differently than LOTS of shafts due to how they're balanced. I love the C-Tapers, but I also love the DG Tour Issues. Neither are a bad choice, just depends on feel. To me, and it's saying a lot because I love the feel of the KBS Tours, just wished the spin wasn't off the charts for me, the Dynamic Gold TI's feel more smooth than the C-Tapers. One thing about Kim Braly's product, though, you definitely know when you've missed one with the C-Tapers, because the sound changes tremendously.

 

How much does a 5-PW set of DG TI cost?

[JMiller]

I, of course, did not hit many good shots today at the golf store but got to try out the KBS Shafts. The Tour 90's were too weak, too high, and too much spin. and way too short. The same could be said with the S300s except the S300's are not too high. On the few good ones I did hit, most bad ones were pulls from coming over the top, something about hitting in a building does not agree with me. It was the wifes birthday so I could not spend as much time as I wanted with these shafts.

 

Matt thanks for the tip on the TMag cart.

 

I was able to get the R11 head with a C Taper and a Tour 90. I found an Adams a12 Black with a Tour. I suspect that the really good numbers I got with the Tour were partially cause by the a12 head. It was superior to the R11 IMO. And before you say that I do not like TMag, I will say that I like TMag better than Adams. I have never it an Adams club I liked, until today. I have seen some I liked but not when I hit them.

 

I did find that I got better results from the PX6.5 than the PX5.5.

 

Not sure that the good numbers are but I was getting with the R11 6 iron with KBS Tour 78 mph head, 112 mph ball speed, 16.4 degree launch, and 6600 rpm back spin, 265 side spin, and 166 carry.

 

With the R11 6 iron C Taper about the same speed 14.6 launch, and 6140 back spin. and 172 carry.

 

The PX 6.5 were not lots of different from the tours and and c tapers but the dgs were 155 carry

 

155 is about what I get now out of my 6 iron.(One set of irons anyway.) I did not take my clubs to see what type of spin and all I am getting now. but I would guess that it was more spin. The fitter guy said those numbers with the KBS shafts were not bad. And even thought that the flight was angles and spin were high I would definately be holding greens with a 6 iron.

 

I think it may come down to do I want the black shaft or the satin finish.

 

I had to go and dig out my old numbers from when I first got my C-Taper XS in the Titleist AP2 with the 6 iron, I am sure those number have changed now but this was over a year ago at this point. I'll try to get some more updated numbers on the launch monitor when i test the Black Ops shaft. I have always been sort of a high launch higher spin player and that made KBS Tour and Tour 90 really the wrong way to go for my short irons. I'd have to go back and test it again now to see as my swing has changed since these number got recorded.

 

Here is PGA Tour Averages just for a reference --> http://mytrackman.com/TrackMan.Online.DrivingRange/PGANumbers.html

Numbers with the 6 iron

Carry Distance - low 199, high 206

Lunch Angle - low 18.1, high 20.0

Spin Rate - low 4470, high 4780

[RoverRick]

I had to go and dig out my old numbers from when I first got my C-Taper XS in the Titleist AP2 with the 6 iron, I am sure those number have changed now but this was over a year ago at this point. I'll try to get some more updated numbers on the launch monitor when i test the Black Ops shaft. I have always been sort of a high launch higher spin player and that made KBS Tour and Tour 90 really the wrong way to go for my short irons. I'd have to go back and test it again now to see as my swing has changed since these number got recorded.

 

Here is PGA Tour Averages just for a reference --> http://mytrackman.co...PGANumbers.html

Numbers with the 6 iron

Carry Distance - low 199, high 206

Lunch Angle - low 18.1, high 20.0

Spin Rate - low 4470, high 4780

 

 

Looked at the trackman link, and once again I am closer to the LPGA numbers, does this mean I get to move to the forward tees?

 

 

I am watching the LPGA now and honestly I do not have the legs to move up to the forward tee. You got to love a sport that features tan legs and short skirts. I occasionally ever see the ball flight.

[JMiller]

Looked at the trackman link, and once again I am closer to the LPGA numbers, does this mean I get to move to the forward tees?

 

 

I am watching the LPGA now and honestly I do not have the legs to move up to the forward tee. You got to love a sport that features tan legs and short skirts. I occasionally ever see the ball flight.

 

We are getting way off topic at this point lol...

 

Play it forward! LOL, that got a good chuckle out of me that's for sure.

 

Take a look at the Carolinas Golf Association for the course where I am a member at, I see the Women's Golf team on Blue most of the time. Which you can see bellow which one is the longest / hardest tees on the course. A lot of men play blue out there.

 

With an USGA Handicap Index of 8.7 here is your course handicap for Duke University Golf Course:

Men's Black (141/73.9): 11

Men's Gold (135/72.6): 10

Men's Blue (129/70.9): 10

Men's White (122/69.6): 9

Men's Green (118/66.6): 9

Women's Gold (146/79.4): 11

Women's Blue (139/77.5): 11

Women's Combo (137/77.1): 11

Women's White (135/75.3): 10

Women's Green (126/72.2): 10

[GolfSpy WD]

I'm sorry bout two part post, my wife's driving & she just slammed on the brakes & I hit the frickin post key...Anyway, Dave said that the "made fors" were of inferior quality...A little about Dave...He's a 55yo retired dual PhD...IT wiz who along with a partner sold a program of some sort to Microsoft & he's been clubbin it since...Bottom line, he's got more $$ than he knows what to do with, thus he undertakes bone-headed activities like this....Anyway, he bought 6 drivers with the "made for" shafts & the 6 corresponding "authentic" shafts...

 

He then put 'em in a vice & started cranking it..Yep, that's the test..Bottom line, every authentic shaft got @ least 3 complete turns before it crumbled...The best was just a shade less than 4 turns..the "made fors" got between just over 1 turn, to about one & 1 3/4...He said they averaged about 1 1/2, with none getting to 2...

 

I know it's not even remotely close to being a valid "test" so please don't beat that horse...I've already told him he's an idiot..lol....His results are interesting though....Fairways & Greens 4ever...

 

Someone had posted a video with similar results. 6 of each club is a pretty valid test IMO. I hope he made a bet with them

[Shambles]

Someone had posted a video with similar results. 6 of each club is a pretty valid test IMO. I hope he made a bet with them

 

That video was dishonest and made for the purpose of lying to you. This test proves nothing with regards to the playability of the shafts destroyed.

 

 

Shambles

[GolfSpy WD]

That video was dishonest and made for the purpose of lying to you. This test proves nothing with regards to the playability of the shafts destroyed.

 

 

Shambles

 

You're right about the playability, but it says a lot about the quality of the shaft and the point was to show there was a difference between "made for" and aftermarket shafts.

 

Now, I'm not arguing there aren't enormous profit margins on aftermarket shafts, but that's a different topic and there are good alternatives out there (Black Ops, Talamonti, Xcaliber)...

[Matt Saternus]

That video was dishonest and made for the purpose of lying to you. This test proves nothing with regards to the playability of the shafts destroyed.

 

 

Shambles

 

In what way was it dishonest?

[Shambles]

In what way was it dishonest?

 

I would have thought you would have seen that video. Some schoolyard wise guy thought he was being clever and cute breaking a shaft by placing it in a vise with the larger diameter portion in the squeeze, as against the favored shaft being placed correctly.

 

The test currently reported, if it was at all conducted, is a waste of time and money because shafts, like all tools, are designed and built for a purpose and to endure the stresses involved in their use for that purpose. What part of a golf shafts purpose is proven by testing to destruction in a vise ? I can see nothing proven therein, unless he was trying to show brittle strength and even then, for what purpose ? Any test is useless and a waste if that test is not for a purpose. The whole story is reminiscent of some 12 year old claiming he is testing something but cannot describe the thing he is trying to do and how that test serves proof in the utility of that product, or the knowledge gleaned would serve the tester or those to whom the test is reported.

 

Shafts are made for use in a golf swing and the stress involved therein. When that shaft serves your purpose, it's time to pay the price, own it and golf with it. Clearly after market shafts will cost more than shafts that come stock with the club head. Marketing costs alone will be sky high when selling to a 10,000 individual buyers than to 50 bulk buyers. The fact that it costs that much more does not serve as proof of the superiority of that product. It only speaks to the cost of satisfying your specific need which cannot be met by the more commonly available product. If your need cannot be met with an alternative source, it's time to pay the price, own it and use it. Your need and your decision does not speak to more than your need and your decision. It speaks to your ability to fill your need and your decision.

 

 

Shambles

[Shambles]

R.P. Jacobs II,

 

 

Do me the kindness of explaining how destroying a shaft, or a number of shafts in a vise serves our educational needs or proves the superiority of one shaft against another. What part in the useful life of a shaft requires the ability to survive the pressures exerted by a vise beyond the amount needed to hold it in place as the head or grip is changed. Whereas you insist a point was proven, what point was proven by destroying the shaft and how did that shafts destruction in a vise prove that point ?

 

Any experiment must have a point or group of points to prove and therefore support a corresponding conclusion.

 

 

Shambles

[GolfSpy WD]

Just to get this back on topic, has anyone ever hit the True Temper Tour Prototype Monaco?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TOUR-ISSUE-True-Temper-TOUR-PROTO-PROTOTYPE-Monaco-Stiff-or-X-Stiff-3-PW-/290702832494?pt=Golf_Clubmaking_Products_US&hash=item43af3d336e

http://www.fairwaygolfusa.com/true-temper-monaco-prototype-iron-shaft-set-p-16206.html

 

Also, if anyone else was wondering, the TT DG Tour Issue run roughly the same price as C-tapers:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/True-Temper-Dynamic-Gold-Tour-Issue-S-400-Shafts-8-pc-/370601358343?pt=Golf_Clubmaking_Products_US&hash=item56498ff407

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-True-Temper-S400-Tour-Issue-3-PW-8-Shafts-/180861282462?pt=Golf_Clubmaking_Products_US&hash=item2a1c2c289e

[GolfSpy WD]

WD, one of the guys in our swat has them in a set of Miura Tournament Blades..I got to hit the 7i...Beautiful shaft..The copper color is really cool..He plays an XS, while I play a S, so my trajectory was lower than if I'd have 'em in S..Even with the added stiffness & heavier shaft, the spin(or lack of) was noticable..As I said, my trajectory was lower than I prefer though surprisingly the 4 balls I did hit did not have much roll-out..I also lost about 1/2 club(about 8 yds) which I also attribute to not having the proper fit..I play the TT DG Tour Issue shaft & I paid $400 for 8 shafts & he paid $320 for 8 Prototype shafts..Peculiar, no?..Supposedly, there were only 1000 sets manufactured for public sale, with shipping starting last fall, so I wonder if they even have any left..I'm sure you've seen it, though if anyone wants to read more specifics/specs, fairwaygolfusa did a nice post on MGS on 02/08/12...I asked you on my GI post, so if you answer here forget that one, but my question was what are your Dynacrafts, MB, CB or MC?....Have a good one...Fairways & Greens 4ever...

 

(Not sure if you saw my other reply or not, but I like the Dynacrafts enough to repeat myself...)

 

Probably closest to 3/4 MC: http://www.hirekogolf.com/hireko/orderportal/catalog_presentation/by_group/0/2042/0/0/0/0/0

 

Check the link in my sig for more pics. Once my bag has settled and I have new shafts in my irons down I'll post some updated pics.

[JMiller]

TT also has a website separate then the usual that lists shafts that are more 'tour' lines

--> http://www.tttourconcept.com/pfc/ also same page can be found at http://www.performancefittingcenter.com/pfc/

 

WEll I did a lot of searching on the Monaco, I haven't hit one or even the DG Tour Issue either. I'm not really a huge DG guy or even a stepped feel kind of person, I like stepless shafts majority of the time but not against testing anything.

 

TT Tour Concept (different then Tour Issue) are a stepped flighted type of shaft sort of like PX flighted where 2-5 I think give a little help to get the ball higher in the air with the tip section and then the lower irons play more lower trajectory then normal.

 

TT Monaco says that it does the same thing but tweaked on an iron to iron basis so the tip of a 2 iron little different then the tip of a 3 iron. Flighted also but more from shaft to shaft then a range of shafts.

 

My real curiosity about TT TC and TT Monaco is how soft stepping and hard stepping would change the playing characteristics. If each tip is a little different in the Monaco set then you might end up with results you didn't expect in soft stepping (normally goes a little higher anyways) or hard stepping (normally goes a little lower already)

[RoverRick]

I had my shaft fitting this morning. First off, yesterday, on 7 I hit one into the deep rough. I was going to dig down deep and get it out, however, I dug too deep and injured my wrist. But I went to the golf store anyway, and tested the shafts. Luckily I paid attention last week because the help I got today, using the term loosely, sucked. But I used the Taylormade R11 cart because it had the C Taper shaft. So I hit 3 balls with each shaft and then did it again to confirm my numbers. I was prepared to discover that the PX shaft was better than the DG but the KBS was going to beat both. Here are my average numbers. They were a decrease in my swing speed since last week, probably the wrist. On the course I with my Medicus Swing Meter I have about a 85-90 mph swing speed with the 6 irons and last week at the launch monitor, I was 82,

 

I do know for a fact that the harder I hit the ball the higher it goes and the more it spins. There are some par threes that I hit a 5 ion into and I usually back it up a couple of feet. I do not want to change my swing to reduce this spin unless I have to. In the summer, the greens typically get pretty hard and I hate rolling off the green.

 

This weeks numbers

 

CS.-BS.-.LA.-.RPMS.-.Dist.-.Apex

my back up 6 iron (sold my gamer on Saturday)Rifle 5.5 FCM

76- 110- 23 - 7200 - 156 - 42

PX5.5

74.- 107 - 20 -.6035 - 164 - 31

PX6.0

72 - 105 - 17 - 5800 - 166- 25

PX6.5

74 - 108 - 19 - 6900 - 162 - 30

DGS300

77 - 112 - 18 - 6416 - 170 - 31

DGX100

78 - 114 - 19 - 4811 - 186 - 32

KBS Tour 90

79 - 115 - 21 - 4700 - 180 - 35

KBS Tour

78 - 113 - 22 - 6240 - 171 - 37

KBS C Taper

79 - 117 - 17 - 4352 - 190 - 30

 

Obviously, the PX distance did not outperform the DG. Astonishingly enough, based on the swing speed the X100's should not have have more distance than the S300 but because of the spin they did. What I came away with, to my untrained eye. was the C Taper was the best shaft for me, followed closely by but DG X100.

 

I was originally really excited about the C Tapers but when I seen how close the DG X100's were I took a close look at the pros and cons.

 

First off, performance is pretty close apples to apples.

 

Feel, the c tapers may have felt better but I also like the X100;s so I call that even.

 

Looks, I have only seen one C Taper in real life and that was in the TMag fitting cart, and to be honest, while I like the stepless much more than the DG, I do not like the look of the satin finish on them. It just looks cheap to me. I think, having read a lot about it, I am alone with this opinion but that is what I think.

 

Price. Dispite what was said on this site about being able to find C Tapers on ebay for less than $200 I did not. I was able to get the DG X 100 for less than $50.

 

 

Based on this i decided to hold off on the C Tapers for now and go with the DG X100.

 

Because of the distance gains I expect from this change, my hybrids and fairway woods now need to be adjusted. I am purchasing KBS hybrid shafts for my Ben Hogan Hybrids. This will reduce the spin on them and thus change the distance. Titleist Hybrids do not have the right size hosel to take the KBS Shaft so I will put the original shafts in them and send them to eBay.

 

I may revisit the KBS shafts at a not so much later date, but I will test out the hybrid performance first. I may also buy one C Taper to see. I have some concerns with this shaft. I do not want to reduce the spin to the point where I do not hold the greens. I would rather go back to hitting a 6 iron 155 yards than be unable to hold a green. X100's are just a much cheaper way to test.

 

 

What do you experts think?

[Matt Saternus]

What did the dispersion look like, respectively, for the C-Taper vs. the X100? That might be the tie-breaker for me, though you're also right about cost: big difference.

 

I think you're taking a good approach: see if you benefit from the lower spin, demo one C-Taper to see if that's better than the X100. Tinker tinker tinker

[JMiller]

I am not really an expert so to speak but have had a lot of experience in the C-Tapers been playing the XS since the day they got released to the public, even got to hit the prototype S or S+ I can't recall which flex it was now. The Prototype was basically a KBS Tour stepless version tip section wasn't what they were after.

 

PX and KBS use the same Butt Frequency scale, PX 5.5 = 255 CPM @ 43" - 4.3CPM per 1/2" off the club. A 39" 3 iron would be 255 + ((43" - 39") * (2*4.3)) ~ 289.4 CPM. The raw lengths of the Taper tips are to scale in both the KBS and PX lines. If i recall correctly the DG X100 Taper Tips have a raw length CPM gap of 5 or 6cpm between shafts and I think around 8CPM gaps in the short irons, I might be wrong on the scale for DGs.

 

I say this is probably pretty close in terms of stiffness numbers, I got the PX and DG numbers from a well known club builder, I am guessing on KBS on feel only

PX 5.5 ~ 6.0FCM

PX 6.0 ~ 6.5FCM

PX 6.5 ~ 7.0FCM

DG s300 ~ 6.2FCM

DG x100 ~ 6.8FCM

KBS Tour S+ ~ 6.1FCM (guess on feel only, butt stats to 6.6)

KBS Tour XS ~ 6.6FCM (guess on feel only, butt stats to 7.1)

KBS C-Taper S+ ~ 6.2FCM (guess on feel only, butt stats to 6.8)

KBS C-Taper XS ~ 6.8FCM (guess on feel only, butt stats to 7.3)

As a general rule the KBS line feels about 0.5 FCM softer then the Butt coefficient that they give on their stats, super smooth shaft.

 

 

Enough technical stuff lol...

 

If you want to work the ball a little easier then I suggest the DG x100, for me in terms of 'feel' it is right between a PX and KBS it's not overly harsh like PX but not smooth like KBS it's a good shaft and for the price and the amount of shafts floating around out their they are a good selection.

 

I think you probably find an increase in both shafts in terms of spin based on what you are saying once your wrist is back to 100% more so in the DG x100 then the C-Taper. C-Taper is just a spin killing beast producing some penetrating flat bullets. Targeted at 'high spin high launch' type players.

 

I like the looks of the C-Taper I find it funny when someone asks if they are graphite, I get that a lot. The old PX Satin (Kim Braly PX Design) were a slightly different finish as well then the C-Taper, both of them look really good for me, but I can see how some might see it looking 'cheap' fair enough.

 

A little history for those that are not a shaft hoe like me on KBS... Kim Braly Signature (KBS) founded 2008, Just take a look at the company bio and Kim Braly bio on their website --> http://kbsgolfshafts.com/index.php/company/about-kbs

[GolfSpy WD]

I had my shaft fitting this morning. First off, yesterday, on 7 I hit one into the deep rough. I was going to dig down deep and get it out, however, I dug too deep and injured my wrist. But I went to the golf store anyway, and tested the shafts. Luckily I paid attention last week because the help I got today, using the term loosely, sucked. But I used the Taylormade R11 cart because it had the C Taper shaft. So I hit 3 balls with each shaft and then did it again to confirm my numbers. I was prepared to discover that the PX shaft was better than the DG but the KBS was going to beat both. Here are my average numbers. They were a decrease in my swing speed since last week, probably the wrist. On the course I with my Medicus Swing Meter I have about a 85-90 mph swing speed with the 6 irons and last week at the launch monitor, I was 82,

 

One issue with the Medicus is it measures your maximum speed vs your speed at impact. Hireko wrote a nice article about how tempo affects where your speed peaks (This is why anytime I mention my swing speed, I also say it was from the Medicus)

 

http://blog.hirekogolf.com/2012/03/the-2012-shaft-fitting-addendum-is-now-available/

 

 

As an aside, one of the reasons I'm excited about the SwingByte is it shows speed across the entire swing.

 

 

This weeks numbers

 

CS.-BS.-.LA.-.RPMS.-.Dist.-.Apex

my back up 6 iron (sold my gamer on Saturday)Rifle 5.5 FCM

76- 110- 23 - 7200 - 156 - 42

PX5.5

74.- 107 - 20 -.6035 - 164 - 31

PX6.0

72 - 105 - 17 - 5800 - 166- 25

PX6.5

74 - 108 - 19 - 6900 - 162 - 30

DGS300

77 - 112 - 18 - 6416 - 170 - 31

DGX100

78 - 114 - 19 - 4811 - 186 - 32

KBS Tour 90

79 - 115 - 21 - 4700 - 180 - 35

KBS Tour

78 - 113 - 22 - 6240 - 171 - 37

KBS C Taper

79 - 117 - 17 - 4352 - 190 - 30

 

Obviously, the PX distance did not outperform the DG. Astonishingly enough, based on the swing speed the X100's should not have have more distance than the S300 but because of the spin they did. What I came away with, to my untrained eye. was the C Taper was the best shaft for me, followed closely by but DG X100.

 

I was originally really excited about the C Tapers but when I seen how close the DG X100's were I took a close look at the pros and cons.

 

First off, performance is pretty close apples to apples.

 

Feel, the c tapers may have felt better but I also like the X100;s so I call that even.

 

Looks, I have only seen one C Taper in real life and that was in the TMag fitting cart, and to be honest, while I like the stepless much more than the DG, I do not like the look of the satin finish on them. It just looks cheap to me. I think, having read a lot about it, I am alone with this opinion but that is what I think.

 

Price. Dispite what was said on this site about being able to find C Tapers on ebay for less than $200 I did not. I was able to get the DG X 100 for less than $50.

 

 

Based on this i decided to hold off on the C Tapers for now and go with the DG X100.

 

Because of the distance gains I expect from this change, my hybrids and fairway woods now need to be adjusted. I am purchasing KBS hybrid shafts for my Ben Hogan Hybrids. This will reduce the spin on them and thus change the distance. Titleist Hybrids do not have the right size hosel to take the KBS Shaft so I will put the original shafts in them and send them to eBay.

 

I may revisit the KBS shafts at a not so much later date, but I will test out the hybrid performance first. I may also buy one C Taper to see. I have some concerns with this shaft. I do not want to reduce the spin to the point where I do not hold the greens. I would rather go back to hitting a 6 iron 155 yards than be unable to hold a green. X100's are just a much cheaper way to test.

 

 

What do you experts think?

 

Thanks for posting this. It's exactly what I was hoping to see when I started this thread. It's pretty amazing how much of a difference a shaft can make with the same head. Can't wait for my own fitting

 

Matt brought up dispersion and since he did, I'm now interested in that as well. Still, comparing a $50 set of shafts to a $250 set, it better be a significant amount of accuracy gained.

 

Enjoy the new sticks!

[JMiller]

I think Mizuno has an interesting fitting cart with their shaft optimizer tools, It hits on everything that you need to know about the swing in terms of finding a shaft that works for you.

 

Swing Speed (would assume like Medicus), Tempo (this measures transition speed), Shaft Toe Down (amount bending downwards, more commonly known as 'shaft droop'), Shaft Kick Angle (amount bending forward, more commonly known as 'shaft lead'), Release factor (where and how the club is released) The is pretty much optimal for what you need to consider honestly.

 

Most of the time fitters just look at Spin rate, Load factor (eye balling tempo and release point), ball flight / launch angle. You can get pretty close with that normally then it comes down to a feel thing for the golfer which shaft to use and soft step / hard step if they are between flexes.

[RoverRick]

I did hit various heads with the same shafts, and found that there was no real difference, when comparing apples to apples. The Callaway Razr Forged and Mizuno MP63 and Adams CB3 (?) and MacGregor something or other were statistically the same. I hit a couple of GI irons, designed to get the ball up and increase spin and they were about the same but the last thing I need it so get the ball higher and add spin.

I settled on the R11 because it was the only fitting cart that I saw with the C Taper shaft.

 

Last week when I was there I had excellent service. This week, it was not. I did ask for someone to come back and assist, and eventually someone was able to take a break from smoking a cigarette long enough to spend about 30 seconds with me and suggested that I try a regular flex, and if I wanted C Tapers to order them off the internet because they did not have them in stock and asked if there was anything else before he left. I have always gone to the same golf store but to be honest I think I will go a different route from now on. They have a new road opened up which cutts 30 minutes off of my drive which is a big plus but there is a PGA Superstore and another Golfsmiths on this other road, I just went back to this one because I have been going there once every month or 2 for 8 years. But left with a stale cigarette taste in my mouth yesterday.

[RoverRick]

What did the dispersion look like, respectively, for the C-Taper vs. the X100? That might be the tie-breaker for me, though you're also right about cost: big difference.

 

I think you're taking a good approach: see if you benefit from the lower spin, demo one C-Taper to see if that's better than the X100. Tinker tinker tinker

 

 

I forgot to mention that. With the C Tapers I had pretty good dispersion but they were all way right of the target line. This was not such a big deal because most of the shafts were right. I was not really concerned about that initially. I was concerned about the spin rate. The last shaft I tried was the X100. I only found it on the Mizuno cart. So I tried that. The X100 and Mizuno MP63 went straight down the target line. I mean one of them hit the line at 185 yards and the others were with in a couple of yards of the line. I tried another shaft in the same head to see if it was just the head, but it again went to the right. It was at that point that the X100s became the front runner.

 

I then checked the internet and found a buy it now for $49 a set and ordered it on my iPhone right then.

[RoverRick]

One issue with the Medicus is it measures your maximum speed vs your speed at impact. Hireko wrote a nice article about how tempo affects where your speed peaks (This is why anytime I mention my swing speed, I also say it was from the Medicus)

 

http://blog.hirekogo...-now-available/

 

 

As an aside, one of the reasons I'm excited about the SwingByte is it shows speed across the entire swing.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting this. It's exactly what I was hoping to see when I started this thread. It's pretty amazing how much of a difference a shaft can make with the same head. Can't wait for my own fitting

 

Matt brought up dispersion and since he did, I'm now interested in that as well. Still, comparing a $50 set of shafts to a $250 set, it better be a significant amount of accuracy gained.

 

Enjoy the new sticks!

 

My Medicus does not register properly unless I hit the ball I hit something. I say properly because if I swing and do not hit the ball it is always 30 or 40 mph less.

 

I have spent the last several months working to get the maximum speed at or after the ball. This is one of the things that has created the spin issues to start with. I have videoed it with the iPhone and played it back in slow mo (Tiger woods My Swing app and the Team Titleist app are both great for this) I am hitting it properly and trapping the ball. So the early release is not an issue.

 

I also am about to get rid of the over the top pull. (I hope) But definately qualify for the "Slow Tempo" in this graphic.

[RoverRick]

I think Mizuno has an interesting fitting cart with their shaft optimizer tools, It hits on everything that you need to know about the swing in terms of finding a shaft that works for you.

 

Swing Speed (would assume like Medicus), Tempo (this measures transition speed), Shaft Toe Down (amount bending downwards, more commonly known as 'shaft droop'), Shaft Kick Angle (amount bending forward, more commonly known as 'shaft lead'), Release factor (where and how the club is released) The is pretty much optimal for what you need to consider honestly.

 

Most of the time fitters just look at Spin rate, Load factor (eye balling tempo and release point), ball flight / launch angle. You can get pretty close with that normally then it comes down to a feel thing for the golfer which shaft to use and soft step / hard step if they are between flexes.

 

 

I saw the video of Luke Donald on the Mizuno site and wanted to get my swing DNA but did not see that device there and then promply forgot about it while there.

[JMiller]

I did hit various heads with the same shafts, and found that there was no real difference, when comparing apples to apples. The Callaway Razr Forged and Mizuno MP63 and Adams CB3 (?) and MacGregor something or other were statistically the same. I hit a couple of GI irons, designed to get the ball up and increase spin and they were about the same but the last thing I need it so get the ball higher and add spin. I settled on the R11 because it was the only fitting cart that I saw with the C Taper shaft.

 

Last week when I was there I had excellent service. This week, it was not. I did ask for someone to come back and assist, and eventually someone was able to take a break from smoking a cigarette long enough to spend about 30 seconds with me and suggested that I try a regular flex, and if I wanted C Tapers to order them off the internet because they did not have them in stock and asked if there was anything else before he left. I have always gone to the same golf store but to be honest I think I will go a different route from now on. They have a new road opened up which cutts 30 minutes off of my drive which is a big plus but there is a PGA Superstore and another Golfsmiths on this other road, I just went back to this one because I have been going there once every month or 2 for 8 years. But left with a stale cigarette taste in my mouth yesterday.

 

If you need to get C-Tapers and can't find a good location near you then I suggest trying on of the online retailers for them if you are looking for new uncut. They are $35 a shaft, lowest allowable retail price from KBS is what I heard when they first came out, seems they have stuck to that price. Value golf carries the full KBS line up and is listed on the KBS website as an official retailer --> http://www.valuegolf.com/golf-components/?components_brands=192 but Golfsmith and Golfworks are also both listed.

 

If you run into a dead end then send me a PM I know where to go to get you some shafts and have them spine aligned if you wanted.