Deep Thoughts: Steel Shafts

[cnosil]

19 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Seems like a lot of variables to add to try to change my approach angle after 31 years of resisting various coaching. Lessons would replace my access to trackman in my budget, so I'd be at the whim of others' schedules for my 1 hour a month rather than 2hr self-reflecting. 

I was considering cutting that expense for the indoor place and putting the money towards a twilight full access membership somewhere to save on tee times for my self-teaching. That's the more likely expenditure of $80 per month on golf. 

I will stress I think golf professionals fill an important and valuable role. I just think I am the person they will benefit the least. The average fitter and/or teaching pro doesn't need to mix my swing tendencies and mental wandering into what was otherwise a strong data set in their professional career.

Each player should do what the feel is best.   Lesson, buying equipment, use of launch monitors are all up to you.   You sound like a DIYer so I’d suggest you do research into what all the numbers mean and what ranges you should try to fit yourself into if you are going to leverage launch monitors and the data.   If you are going to be a range rat, you need to figure out the source your problems and how to correct them. 

[edingc]

22 minutes ago, cnosil said:

If you are going to be a range rat, you need to figure out the source your problems and how to correct them. 

This.

I'd concur that there should be at least one or two lessons spent trying to identify the source of the path/face relationship. Well before I'd consider spending more money on swapping shafts.

Based on Trackman's optimizer, there is 25+ yards to be gained at those swing speeds:

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, richk9holes said:

Seems like a lot of variables to add to try to change my approach angle after 31 years of resisting various coaching. Lessons would replace my access to trackman in my budget, so I'd be at the whim of others' schedules for my 1 hour a month rather than 2hr self-reflecting. 

I was considering cutting that expense for the indoor place and putting the money towards a twilight full access membership somewhere to save on tee times for my self-teaching. That's the more likely expenditure of $80 per month on golf. 

I will stress I think golf professionals fill an important and valuable role. I just think I am the person they will benefit the least. The average fitter and/or teaching pro doesn't need to mix my swing tendencies and mental wandering into what was otherwise a strong data set in their professional career.

There are lots of variables. One is understanding the golf swing so that you can identify the cause of an issue and a way to resolve it. 
 

A launch monitor is good but without knowledge of the swing and/or ball flight laws to understand what’s happening it just becomes a fancy device to have for seeing numbers 

Just like a coach in other area whether it be a personal trainer, mental coach, baseball coach the professional has seen it all and their job is to help the person paying for their services to improve whatever they are doing. The same goes for the fitter their job is to get the golfer in the best equipment for them. To say you would benefit the least is nonsense imo. Fittings and lessons are learning experiences. If anyone is trying to be better at anything learning as much as possible goes along way.

Since you have a preference to go about things on your own then I suggest studying and learning the golf swing. That can be done several ways. Instructors like Chris Ryan and athletic motion golf  have free video content on YouTube that explains how to grip the club, how to takeaway the right way, how to make the proper backswing and downswing. They have fault videos as well

Then there are membership sites from the amg free portion up to somewhat all inclusive memberships. To name some would be amg, Eric Cogorno, George Gankas, Milo lines, meandmygolf 

Other options would be buying efficient swing, no turn cast, broom force and power shift from rebellion golf. Or some combo of those.

These all will give you and understanding of the swing and a way to build a good swing

Remember you’ve been doing the samething for 31 years it’s not going to get fixed overnight or in a short period of time. Pros take 18-24 months for swing changes to take hold. Improving little by little is going to be more effective 

[richk9holes]

The way I see it the Trackman is a peripheral to using the indoor simulator. 1 hr there is used 90% on playing up to 27 holes on courses I'd never be invited to nor pay for travel if I were. The 10 swings I take before I play a round have the added benefit i have stored data on them. I'm paying for the 1st part. The 2nd happens to come with it.

I maybe should have specified I'm not on course or grass range this is a booth hitting off a mat into a screen the numbers I shared. When I say Trackman shaves 8% yardage, more accurate to say hitting off a mat shaves 8% yardage. The way some shots interact with the simulator during a round I am skeptical at best that the scope of the launch monitor captures the full arc of some shots. Could be error with how the cameras are set. Also the booth is tight in some of the bays. Something that would not bother most people, but for me puts the wall behind me in play with clubs 43" and longer because my backswing can touch if I take a bad slice swing.

[richk9holes]

As far as confusion, I'm assessing cold numbers I got off a computer in a closed environment so I don't see any room for confusion. 

141 carry on the 6i total distance 151 at 86mph and about that apex and if you multiply 1.08 arrive at 163. That is the club with XP 95 shaft.

It's the other clubs that have Elevate 95 shafts 7-AW. Those are the clubs often with the same or similar carry/distance from a Trackman session. They release on the course like normal conditions.

Once again, 4 yards on a 90 yard shot my total distance is shaved on trackman vs. on course 4.5% in that regard. Combined with an equivalent loss on carry, it just feels intuitively like the simulation isn't fully capturing reality. My own personal feeling after 60 hours on one of the things.

Even still if you take a 122 yard 9i and multiply 1.09 I'm still 15 yards short of where a 82mph swing should be. A 99'+ Apex on some 8/9i shots is high. Thanks for clarifying that. If I go back further in '22 my apexes are often above 90'. 

Any given day I'm attempting a window drill like a slob taking some of the swings on these reports so that must be factored in AoA assessment.

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

As far as confusion, I'm assessing cold numbers I got off a computer in a closed environment so I don't see any room for confusion. 

141 carry on the 6i total distance 151 at 86mph and about that apex and if you multiply 1.08 arrive at 163. That is the club with XP 95 shaft.

It's the other clubs that have Elevate 95 shafts 7-AW. Those are the clubs often with the same or similar carry/distance from a Trackman session. They release on the course like normal conditions.

Once again, 4 yards on a 90 yard shot my total distance is shaved on trackman vs. on course 4.5% in that regard. Combined with an equivalent loss on carry, it just feels intuitively like the simulation isn't fully capturing reality. My own personal feeling after 60 hours on one of the things.

Even still if you take a 122 yard 9i and multiply 1.09 I'm still 15 yards short of where a 82mph swing should be. A 99'+ Apex on some 8/9i shots is high. Thanks for clarifying that. If I go back further in '22 my apexes are often above 90'. 

Any given day I'm attempting a window drill like a slob taking some of the swings on these reports so that must be factored in AoA assessment.

I am totally confused by what you are multiplying.

From what you have said:  you struggle in the sim room due to confined space;  my guess is this is why you don't get the same distances as you do on the course.   If you height is significantly above 90', yes you are probably too high.  I don't think it is shaft, but your swing.   The release on the trackman is related to its fairway firmness settings; if you have it set to soft you may not see rollout.   

[richk9holes]

My observed loss of 8% yardage is what I'm multiplying. A full trackman captured 6i ×1.08 gets me the expected results I would see on course. As said above, I often note PH on a 6i strike I'm attempting 160-163 on course. Never have I ever in 60 hours touched a 16_ any number with trackman in 60 hours. 

New technology is incomplete, I'm not expecting perfect simulation. I'm also not confused about what hard numbers are in front of me.

This and the 1.09 number are complete estimates of something as intangible as my anecdotal observation. 

[richk9holes]

And I said confined space as a final point and specifically referencing clubs 43" + that would not be my irons, I am not a gigantoid. 

It's a point about why my Driver avg on the simulator is 215 or so with better length on the course, and pretty much an aside. 

[richk9holes]

And a 6i rolling out 10 yards but an 8i rolling out 18" in the same 10 swing range session means it isn't the firmness of the imaginary fairway. 

[TylorJudd]

I think this thread is getting hijacked a bit here

[GolfSpy_APH]

I went a little lighter and stiffer recently because i am swinging faster, but when I have gone heavier it just feels like a lot of work! 

As long as the flex (not stated, but feel) is to your liking and not too firm or whippy then I see lots of benefits to going lighter.

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, richk9holes said:

My observed loss of 8% yardage is what I'm multiplying. A full trackman captured 6i ×1.08 gets me the expected results I would see on course. As said above, I often note PH on a 6i strike I'm attempting 160-163 on course. Never have I ever in 60 hours touched a 16_ any number with trackman in 60 hours. 

New technology is incomplete, I'm not expecting perfect simulation. I'm also not confused about what hard numbers are in front of me.

This and the 1.09 number are complete estimates of something as intangible as my anecdotal observation. 

based on this, you have no confidence in launch monitors; my next suggestion is that you stop using them.   Or you can  just realize that your results are about 10% off.   

I never said you were confused about you numbers; I was confused by the seemingly random numbers you were putting in your post.

 

9 hours ago, richk9holes said:

And I said confined space as a final point and specifically referencing clubs 43" + that would not be my irons, I am not a gigantoid. 

It's a point about why my Driver avg on the simulator is 215 or so with better length on the course, and pretty much an aside. 

Point wasn’t about how big you are, but how you react in a sim space.   Some people are fine others not.   There are also multiple reports  of people not getting accurate readings on launch monitors.  I personally get pretty accurate results.   
 

9 hours ago, richk9holes said:

And a 6i rolling out 10 yards but an 8i rolling out 18" in the same 10 swing range session means it isn't the firmness of the imaginary fairway. 

Okay, but you haven’t said that before that I have seen.  

Good luck in figuring out what you want to do.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, richk9holes said:

My observed loss of 8% yardage is what I'm multiplying. A full trackman captured 6i ×1.08 gets me the expected results I would see on course. As said above, I often note PH on a 6i strike I'm attempting 160-163 on course. Never have I ever in 60 hours touched a 16_ any number with trackman in 60 hours. 

New technology is incomplete, I'm not expecting perfect simulation. I'm also not confused about what hard numbers are in front of me.

This and the 1.09 number are complete estimates of something as intangible as my anecdotal observation. 

You don’t have carry numbers from on course and total yardage on course can vary based on course conditions and your shot at the time. Trackmans total yardage is based on its algorithm from the other day so comparing total yardage on the trackman vs the course isn’t real helpful, you should be comparing carry vs carry.

You can use whatever numbers you want for estimating but imo they don’t make any sense and aren’t real useful.

What do you mean new technology is incomplete?

The issue you should be focused on which is a fear piece of information that can be tracked for profess is your smash factor, attack angle, face to path and club path.

You are coming from the outside anywhere from ~8-11° that’s a lot. You have a face to path that is anywhere from ~6-11° also a lot. This is going to cause inconsistency in strike, lots of curve on the ball with big left to right slices or right and going further right. Your attack angle is carry from 0-4°.  All causing a poor smash factor or bad strike.

When you fix those the distances will go up and be more consistent.

The question is whether the shaft is hindering your swing or not. That can’t be answered by anyone here and only thru some form of testing shafts and comparing numbers to see if they change or not. 
 

Based on the trackman numbers and without seeing a swing I would say things probably won’t change too much with a heavier shaft or a different profile. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 hours ago, TylorJudd said:

I think this thread is getting hijacked a bit here

Yes and no. There are things that have to be considered for shafts and the description on a webpage isn’t enough info to make a decision because the weight of the shaft, how it feels to a each golfer and how it feels in a club determine how it will affect the swing and club delivery. Some people aren’t as sensitive as others are. We all swing the club differently so even two people of same swing speed, handicap, age, etc can have different results from the same head and shaft combo 

[russtopherb]

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I went a little lighter and stiffer recently because i am swinging faster, but when I have gone heavier it just feels like a lot of work! 

As long as the flex (not stated, but feel) is to your liking and not too firm or whippy then I see lots of benefits to going lighter.

Last year I went the opposite way - lighter graphite to heavier steel, both in R flex, and I found that my dispersion tightened up significantly. 

Next step for me is to go back to graphite but in a heavier weight. 

[Merlin1313]

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I went a little lighter and stiffer recently because i am swinging faster, but when I have gone heavier it just feels like a lot of work! 

As long as the flex (not stated, but feel) is to your liking and not too firm or whippy then I see lots of benefits to going lighter.

According to the numbers- I went "lighter"(2g) but "stiffer"(Stiff to X) and got the ball flight I was looking for and the feel fits my quick transition a lot better with better dispersion and accuracy- FWIW. It didn't feel bad when I've gone heavier in the past- just didn't give me what I was trying to achieve even though it seemed like I was swinging "smoother"

[richk9holes]

7 hours ago, TylorJudd said:

I think this thread is getting hijacked a bit here

I think there's a lot of information to process. I'm to blame for introducing about 5 different topics in one thread here.

 

[richk9holes]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:06 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Why do you hit it high? Knowing why something happens goes a long way.

Adding loft is usually why most amateurs hit the ball high. Shafts can influence that negatively or positively. Depends on how the change in shaft weight and/or profile affects the golfers delivery.

What is your dynamic loft?

where on the face are you making contact?

whats your launch and spin?

These are all things that need to be evaluated and then compared when you switch shafts to see what changed and how it’s affecting results 

This post was AFTER I shared trackman data. What are my launch and spin? About 6" above where you're asking.

I have gotten some helpful feedback, but also some hasty responses of the generic variety that show little reading comprehension.

[richk9holes]

Cnosil never said i was confused, Rickybobbypr did. 

I'm arguing with 2 people at once and they are getting defensive at the responses intended for one another.

The 6i has a different shaft than the rest of the shafts, for those who missed that.

The club with appropriate apex that releases properly is a mid profile (as per TT).

The clubs I hit too high (yes now we established 99'+ is too high) are the ones with Elevate high profile (as per the same TT)

Maybe I'm seeing what I want, but this is my empirical data. 

As far as not having carry data on course, my Bushnell tour v3 and Phantom 2 are offended. I always know how far I am trying to hit it and I can see where I land.

[Sinjin Todd]

Shaft weight can make a huge difference. I was in 90 g stiff shafts before I got fit. When I did get fit my fitter said my shafts were way too light for my swing speed and tempo (~95 mph chs 6-iron). Ended up with 125 gram PX shafts. I actually swing them slightly slower but with the same distance and better dispersion. So yeah I recommend getting fit for your shafts


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