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Sorting through Swing Thoughts / Accountability thread


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17 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Nothing is ever perfect but this is closer to what I think I want to see..

 

Hands higher, still moving a *tiny* bit towards the ball (extension in the backswing) and I slipped because I am wearing sandals but this was my first filmed try at the “pro swing.” No idea how that is going to fly on the course, probably will hit some pulls and slices to begin with. Playing tomorrow, could be a disaster. But look at these positions:

22F07925-3AF5-4B9E-A7CE-841414DCB5FB.jpeg.9ef152c2ceb871c248732ca7c932662d.jpeg

19318576-5561-4E4E-BAD3-4446B0D2AEDC.jpeg.4d7ccd603576e15fff56a48987ac8cfc.jpeg

That looks really really good. 

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Thanks Jim! I was out there for about 45 minutes doing 10 minutes on 5 minutes off. I then came inside and turned on the Sea Island PGA tournament and recorded the first 4 down the line swings I saw. All quite different but a few things in common…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


if you aren’t on mobile and don’t want to download 4 vids I will just skip to the point, hands are all relatively high AND hip is fairly deep at the top of the swing.

Cam Young’s action is truly unique, he sets his trail back EARLY and has that pause:

8B0F6DF2-1AB9-4E7E-B06F-6A4C855C39F2.jpeg.effcb96bac53fab86b6a1fe567197179.jpeg

Austin Eckroat is WAAAAY back into his hip:

5F190A74-9F87-463F-A100-3F0C72D3C741.jpeg.d912b6a31fe69dbf8ed460806af50e91.jpeg

Chris Kirk has this real lazy looking swing but he still flushes it:

F6089AFC-65ED-4884-A69E-568C1B23DF4F.jpeg.5fd2286f4f283a03b5b93fc2b8fe5d32.jpeg

And finally, the wunderkind, Åberg. Very textbook looking swing with a fast tempo:

7149681E-88AF-48A6-A244-9247552964C5.jpeg.ec216db553a3862e4102d6afb05b281f.jpeg

I didn’t cherrypick these. These were the first 4 I saw that were down the line. They all get there a little different but no one has really flat backswings or forward hips. My swing will never look like åberg’s and that is fine but I can still try emulate some of these loves.

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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35 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Nothing is ever perfect but this is closer to what I think I want to see..

 

Hands higher, still moving a *tiny* bit towards the ball (extension in the backswing) and I slipped because I am wearing sandals but this was my first filmed try at the “pro swing.” No idea how that is going to fly on the course, probably will hit some pulls and slices to begin with. Playing tomorrow, could be a disaster. But look at these positions:

22F07925-3AF5-4B9E-A7CE-841414DCB5FB.jpeg.9ef152c2ceb871c248732ca7c932662d.jpeg

19318576-5561-4E4E-BAD3-4446B0D2AEDC.jpeg.4d7ccd603576e15fff56a48987ac8cfc.jpeg

I see a couple setup issues that are working against what you are trying to do. First congrats on getting setup more square.

balance points are hurting you here. The back of your armpits are out past the balls of your feet and the arms too far away as a result. 
 

The next thing that hurts you and it’s probably a way to avoid taking the club inside is your right elbow starts to fold early. The left hip and knee movement is something we already talked about.

some drills to help feel the should and chest start the swing is to stick the butt of the club in your belly button and then make your turn til your hands are just past your right thigh. Try not to move the hips or knees at this point too

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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4 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Thanks Jim! I was out there for about 45 minutes doing 10 minutes on 5 minutes off. I then came inside and turned on the Sea Island PGA tournament and recorded the first 4 down the line swings I saw. All quite different but a few things in common…

 

 

 

 


if you aren’t on mobile and don’t want to download 4 vids I will just skip to the point, hands are all relatively high AND hip is fairly deep at the top of the swing.

Cam Young’s action is truly unique, he sets his trail back EARLY and has that pause:

8B0F6DF2-1AB9-4E7E-B06F-6A4C855C39F2.jpeg.effcb96bac53fab86b6a1fe567197179.jpeg

Austin Eckroat is WAAAAY back into his hip:

5F190A74-9F87-463F-A100-3F0C72D3C741.jpeg.d912b6a31fe69dbf8ed460806af50e91.jpeg

Chris Kirk has this real lazy looking swing but he still flushes it:

F6089AFC-65ED-4884-A69E-568C1B23DF4F.jpeg.5fd2286f4f283a03b5b93fc2b8fe5d32.jpeg

And finally, the wunderkind, Åberg. Very textbook looking swing with a fast tempo:

7149681E-88AF-48A6-A244-9247552964C5.jpeg.ec216db553a3862e4102d6afb05b281f.jpeg

I didn’t cherrypick these. These were the first 4 I saw that were down the line. They all get there a little different but no one has really flat backswings or forward hips. My swing will never look like åberg’s and that is fine but I can still try emulate some of these loves.

My first reaction is the rythym of all the swings are unique, as we know, I don’t see the hip thing you are talking about but we all “load” on the right or left side of our body to generate consistent, powerful, speed through impact. 
these pictures are of élite athletes that have been great juniors, great amateurs, and great professionals, and they all have the “it” factor. 
from the videos you posted you have a great base, work on staying with that through all your clubs then put the same amount of time chipping and putting that you do on your long game. 
that is if you want to play competitively, 

it all depends what your goals are. 
great post though 

 

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On 11/17/2023 at 10:47 PM, Jim Shaw said:

My first reaction is the rythym of all the swings are unique, as we know, I don’t see the hip thing you are talking about but we all “load” on the right or left side of our body to generate consistent, powerful, speed through impact. 
these pictures are of élite athletes that have been great juniors, great amateurs, and great professionals, and they all have the “it” factor. 
from the videos you posted you have a great base, work on staying with that through all your clubs then put the same amount of time chipping and putting that you do on your long game. 
that is if you want to play competitively, 

it all depends what your goals are. 
great post though 

 

in all good swings regardless of pro or not there are things that they all do. It’s the right hip back (Jack Nicklaus thought of right pocket back) in the backswing. He’s doing what a lot of amateurs do and it’s left hip forward in the backswing so his hips are moving in the opposite direction of what they are supposed to actually do. This is why there is not hip depth. This causes the right hip then to move forward in the downswing which leads to steep shaft, stick swings and can lead to 2 way misses for better players depending on how well they can compensate for where the club is. As noted by his numbers you can see some big variations in the club path and some of his path being more than 3° in to out.
 

Vandy has been able to better manage his swing with the Monte clinic, working thru the ntc video series and practice, which many good players can do. But it’s also susceptible to some bad days when timing is a little off. 

Edited by RickyBobby_PR

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

in all good swings regardless of pro or not there are things that they all do. It’s the right hip back (Jack Nicklaus thought of right pocket back) in the backswing. He’s doing what a lot of amateurs do and it’s left hip forward in the backswing so his hips are moving in the opposite direction of what they are supposed to actually do. This is why there is not hip depth. This causes the right hip then to move forward in the downswing which leads to steep shaft, stick swings and can lead to 2 way misses for better players depending on how well they can compensate for where the club is. As noted by his numbers you can see some big variations in the club path and some of his path being more than 3° in to out.
 

Vandy has been able to better manage his swing with the Monte clinic, working thru the ntc video series and practice, which many good players can do. But it’s also susceptible to some bad days when timing is a little off. 

Ahh, so what you are saying is the golfers weight shifts forward on their backswing, is that correct? How do they get "through" the ball at impact if they are there already?

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Man yesterday was terrible. Zero fun. Completely lost. 
 

1. any swing change usually results in playing poorly but two swing changes at once is unmanageable

2. This is kind of a self diagnosed change which is always dangerous.

3. I have a bunch of built in “compensations” that all kind of depend on each other.

4. I don’t understand how to “shallow” the club from a high hands position. I know it is covered in NTC but since I have always been flat I never had to learn it. I was already shallow.

i have to stick with my flat backswing for now. Getting a more on plane backswing introduces CHAOS for me at the moment. I found a few pros (not many) that are flatish (probably still not as flat as me but on the flatter side). So it is doable if not preferable.

Linn Grant

52F78516-D7F7-4137-AE79-6A9D4FB18506.png.de55079ec28293358f37746ddf23df93.png
 

Matt Kuchar

7E2A18B9-94E6-4FA5-B500-BA70CDD2B8A8.png.e7b0a1e80838bd1bef8cb7d14a3f93d7.png

Hinako Shibuno

02720DFF-7F47-498F-AAE6-AE10AF3C7262.png.bcdc402ef12dd44c0b36a8f5e3744cfb.png

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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3 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

Ahh, so what you are saying is the golfers weight shifts forward on their backswing, is that correct? How do they get "through" the ball at impact if they are there already?

Not weight per se although some do have that issue but pressure moves towards the towards for most. They get thru the ball by standing up and early extending. This along with dipping the right shoulder are their shallowing moves. The standing up/early extension is what creates the room for the club to come thru and then they have to throw the arms and hands at the ball to hit it and really on the hands rolling to close face that is usually pretty open before impact. For the better players this creates the chance for two way miss. Late closing face and here comes the blocks, pushes and weak push fades. To compensate for that they roll the hands harder and there’s the pulls, hooks or the pull hook.

for others usually the higher handicaps they have some sort of over the top swing. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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18 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not weight per se although some do have that issue but pressure moves towards the towards for most. They get thru the ball by standing up and early extending. This along with dipping the right shoulder are their shallowing moves. The standing up/early extension is what creates the room for the club to come thru and then they have to throw the arms and hands at the ball to hit it and really on the hands rolling to close face that is usually pretty open before impact. For the better players this creates the chance for two way miss. Late closing face and here comes the blocks, pushes and weak push fades. To compensate for that they roll the hands harder and there’s the pulls, hooks or the pull hook.

for others usually the higher handicaps they have some sort of over the top swing. 

I think I am getting closer to understanding… not 100 percent but closer, and it sounds to me like I really don’t want to visualize it 

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4 hours ago, vandyland said:

Man yesterday was terrible. Zero fun. Completely lost. 
 

1. any swing change usually results in playing poorly but two swing changes at once is unmanageable

2. This is kind of a self diagnosed change which is always dangerous.

3. I have a bunch of built in “compensations” that all kind of depend on each other.

4. I don’t understand how to “shallow” the club from a high hands position. I know it is covered in NTC but since I have always been flat I never had to learn it. I was already shallow.

i have to stick with my flat backswing for now. Getting a more on plane backswing introduces CHAOS for me at the moment. I found a few pros (not many) that are flatish (probably still not as flat as me but on the flatter side). So it is doable if not preferable.

Linn Grant

52F78516-D7F7-4137-AE79-6A9D4FB18506.png.de55079ec28293358f37746ddf23df93.png
 

Matt Kuchar

7E2A18B9-94E6-4FA5-B500-BA70CDD2B8A8.png.e7b0a1e80838bd1bef8cb7d14a3f93d7.png

Hinako Shibuno

02720DFF-7F47-498F-AAE6-AE10AF3C7262.png.bcdc402ef12dd44c0b36a8f5e3744cfb.png

@vandyland, please don't ever beat yourself up, you have put yourself out there with some great posts and the one thing I can tell you as can most of the golfers on this site "golf is hard" and guess what, it gets harder to go from a 6 index to a 4 than it does to go from a 10 to a 6. 

I have seen your swing and you have so many great tools...

That is the allure of the game for us people that like to beat the sh** out of ourselves lol.

you nailed it, take one step at a time, not two not three but one, and the old fighters on this site know the improvement curve is not a bell curve but a curve that isnt even a curve, more like a snake...

find the one thing that will help you and work on that for a while.. 

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18 hours ago, vandyland said:

Man yesterday was terrible. Zero fun. Completely lost. 
 

1. any swing change usually results in playing poorly but two swing changes at once is unmanageable

2. This is kind of a self diagnosed change which is always dangerous.

3. I have a bunch of built in “compensations” that all kind of depend on each other.

4. I don’t understand how to “shallow” the club from a high hands position. I know it is covered in NTC but since I have always been flat I never had to learn it. I was already shallow.

i have to stick with my flat backswing for now. Getting a more on plane backswing introduces CHAOS for me at the moment. I found a few pros (not many) that are flatish (probably still not as flat as me but on the flatter side). So it is doable if not preferable.

Linn Grant

52F78516-D7F7-4137-AE79-6A9D4FB18506.png.de55079ec28293358f37746ddf23df93.png
 

Matt Kuchar

7E2A18B9-94E6-4FA5-B500-BA70CDD2B8A8.png.e7b0a1e80838bd1bef8cb7d14a3f93d7.png

Hinako Shibuno

02720DFF-7F47-498F-AAE6-AE10AF3C7262.png.bcdc402ef12dd44c0b36a8f5e3744cfb.png

 

Shallowing a club is a whole new can of worms .

1. How do you define it .

2. Why do it ? What are the pros and cons?

3. If there is a valid reason for doing it , how and when do you do it?

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1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

Shallowing a club is a whole new can of worms .

1. How do you define it .

2. Why do it ? What are the pros and cons?

3. If there is a valid reason for doing it , how and when do you do it?

I'm not an instructor or a knowledgeable person on the golf swing but I think of shallowing as coming into the ball on a flatter, lower plane than my takeaway. Why do it? Well, if my hands were as high as most Tour players if I just turned/swung down from where their hands are it seems like I would hit a huge over the top pull. Since I am mega flat, I don't really have to think about "shallowing" and thus I don't really know how to do it. 

Valid reason for doing it is just trying to get the club to come back to the ball on plane. Ultimately, I am just trying to hit the ball efficiently and with a repeatable result but I will say I have grown to like the draw so I prefer that. If I want to hit a draw, I have to come from the inside slightly and so that the ball can start just right of my target and come back to it. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

 

Shallowing a club is a whole new can of worms .

1. How do you define it .

2. Why do it ? What are the pros and cons?

3. If there is a valid reason for doing it , how and when do you do it?

Pretty much all answered in this video. Definition of shallowing is done eeh in the video. 
 

you do it to avoid inconsistencies in contact with the golf ball which also be the pros and cons. 
 

when to do it is early in the transition/downswing again to avoid inconsistencies in contact. How to do it defined in this video and hundreds of others on YouTube from well respected instructors. Some have different takes on how like GG, Milo, AMG all have different opinions on what causes it, how it’s done but all agree it has to happen. 

Also for how to do it, is what gets discussed in the thread about no turn cast and what cast a teaches 

 

 

Edited by RickyBobby_PR

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I talked to the assistant teaching pro on the range about being super flat and he kind of talked me off the ledge. He basically said, as far as he could tell, I was hitting it straight and the appropriate distance for my swing speed. There was no need to chase the higher hands feeling. He also pointed out that there are some theories out there about wingspan/forearm length or basically biomechanics that demonstrate certain body builds will favor a flatter or more upright swing. There is a fascinating article on GolfWRX (maybe fascinating because it was confirmation bias for me and my flat swing):

https://www.golfwrx.com/181715/biomechanics-and-how-they-affect-swing-plane/

I have a wingspan that is slightly shorter than my height (like by an inch) and my knuckle to elbow is about .75 inches shorter than my elbow to shoulder joint. Not sure if this is reliable science or not but it supports where I am with the club in my backswing currently. 

Anyway, for my own sanity, I am now just working on taming my early extension which is a challenge at the moment and leads to some bad golf shots since I have been used to doing it for so long. Here's to the journey. 

 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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51 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I talked to the assistant teaching pro on the range about being super flat and he kind of talked me off the ledge. He basically said, as far as he could tell, I was hitting it straight and the appropriate distance for my swing speed. There was no need to chase the higher hands feeling. He also pointed out that there are some theories out there about wingspan/forearm length or basically biomechanics that demonstrate certain body builds will favor a flatter or more upright swing. There is a fascinating article on GolfWRX (maybe fascinating because it was confirmation bias for me and my flat swing):

https://www.golfwrx.com/181715/biomechanics-and-how-they-affect-swing-plane/

I have a wingspan that is slightly shorter than my height (like by an inch) and my knuckle to elbow is about .75 inches shorter than my elbow to shoulder joint. Not sure if this is reliable science or not but it supports where I am with the club in my backswing currently. 

Anyway, for my own sanity, I am now just working on taming my early extension which is a challenge at the moment and leads to some bad golf shots since I have been used to doing it for so long. Here's to the journey. 

 

That gets into what Mike Adams teaches and glancing over the article rhe measurements they are doing are what Mike does. He also gets into the way the trail hand moves and whether the golfer is a side in, on top, side under.

then there is also center, front and rear post. 
 

if you want to get even more confused there is upper and lower and I believe middle core philosophy and how that affects early extension. Monte has some early extension because of what type of core he is 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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On 11/16/2023 at 8:29 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

This is where the ball comes in handy for you. The shoulder and chest should be what moves the arms and the hips should move much later than they do in your swing. With the ball feel the left shoulder move down and towards the ball without moving the arms. Then as the hands approach the right leg set the wrist at a 45° angle. That’s going to get the shaft parallel to the ground and should be along your toe line. Then it’s a little more should turn a little left arm rotation and you are at p3. Then hit balls from that position 

So circling back this, I think this syncs up well with something Monte told another player who had a flat backswing like me...

image.png.f10334202b1fdc2b91295512f1270727.png

So like you said, @RickyBobby_PR my hips should move much later in my swing. I used to have a feel where my backswing was all shoulder driven and I think the hands feel has come in as a result of No Turn Cast which is very hands/arms centric. Throw in the trying to get into hip depth (so I just try to get it done early in the swing) and I am all twisted up. 

If I follow what you and Monte are saying, I should put off that hip turn and maybe just focus on the shoulder move towards the ball (which should, in turn, push the trail hip back for dynamic balance) and then get up to P3 (left arm parallel) and hit balls from there. He states "club head first" which I didn't understand how that could be without the hands but maybe he means moving the clubhead via the shoulder as you mention. Then hands, which would be the wrist set? And then hips/knees after P3? 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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27 minutes ago, vandyland said:

No Turn Cast which is very hands/arms centric.

It is but is isn’t. It’s a feeling of the arms/hands pushing the body into position. When you push the hands as part of the no turn in moves the upper body into position which then moves the hips into position.

29 minutes ago, vandyland said:

He states "club head first" which I didn't understand how that could be without the hands but maybe he means moving the clubhead via the shoulder as you mention. Then hands, which would be the wrist set? And then hips/knees after P3? 

As I understand it, when you shift pressure the clubhead is going to move then the hands are going to follow that. It’s the momentum created by the movement of the pressure shift to the trail leg, then yes the wrists are going to set shortly after that which gets you to p2 and very little to no hip turn. Per GG at p2 shoulders have turned 15° and hips 0. Then at p3 it’s 30° and 15° reactively. From p3 all that happens is slight arm lift as the turn completes. This is where you get ~90° and 45°

Something to help all this is a drill Dan Carraher has where you swing the arms to waist high without bending the elbow and set the wrists at hip high. You have no choice but to turn at that point with the hips, it happens automatically 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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What could be more important than your swing in golf? Not equipment, not the course(s) you play, not the company you keep on the course, but the swing...plain and simple. Everything follows after that, thus, it should get the lion's share of our attention. And to be more specific, it is that feeling of flush contact and then looking up and seeing your ball going on its intended line and trajectory through the air...for those fleeting moments I can't imagine a better feeling in any sport that I can still play at my age. I shouldn't care what my swing "looks" like but really just chase the swing that puts me in position to have that feeling I described previously more often. 

I was perusing the internet last night looking at flat backswing this and biomechanics that in hopes that I could just get past wanting my swing to look conventional. But there was and is something nagging at me. I really should be able to get into different positions fairly easily if I am moving "athletically." Not that it is the best thing for me to do but I should be able to get my swing incredibly upright or incredibly flat fairly easily. So what was holding me back? Why couldn't I do it. 

Arm rotation. I didn't have a free rotation of my upper arm, I was locked in place. Easy to overdo it early and open up the clubface but when letting my arm rotate and "set the tray" as Monte talks about, voila, without even really thinking I ended up here:

06890C54-320D-4DF9-9DA8-E3755816647F.jpeg.b01c93e767228d604a975af3ad7dd353.jpeg

Is that a good thing? Maybe or maybe not. No idea what it will do to ballflight but at the moment it feels more "natural" to have the clubface rotating a little more but I can see how that could bring in a more pronounced two way miss. This is a recurring theme with me. I start to lock all parts of my body down in hopes of "controlling" my ballflight by restricting my swing...usually with mixed results in the short term and then bad results long term. No body movement and a stiff, straightjacket looking swing. I think I can try this for a while to "play freely" or at least see how it goes on the range. I have been through this cycle a few times now but never with the underpinning of a swing methodology like Monte's, it has always been mostly self guided. I watched this monte video that reminded me to set the tray. 
 

Finally, I have seen a lot of warnings about "forearm roll" leading to too much of a takeaway inside but for me it is the opposite. If I don't forearm roll at least a little bit I end up trapped under plane. All this is temporary and I have a tendency to overreact, I am under no illusions that I have "found it" but more so I just have a freer feeling swing at the moment. High likelihood I spray it all over the range and I come back to this thread depressed and dejected. 
 

 

 

Edited by vandyland

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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5 minutes ago, vandyland said:

What could be more important than your swing in golf? Not equipment, not the course(s) you play, not the company you keep on the course, but the swing...plain and simple. Everything follows after that, thus, it should get the lion's share of our attention. And to be more specific, it is that feeling of flush contact and then looking up and seeing your ball going on its intended line and trajectory through the air...for those fleeting moments I can't imagine a better feeling in any sport that I can still play at my age. I shouldn't care what my swing "looks" like but really just chase the swing that puts me in position to have that feeling I described previously more often. 

I was perusing the internet last night looking at flat backswing this and biomechanics that in hopes that I could just get past wanting my swing to look conventional. But there was and is something nagging at me. I really should be able to get into different positions fairly easily if I am moving "athletically." Not that it is the best thing for me to do but I should be able to get my swing incredibly upright or incredibly flat fairly easily. So what was holding me back? Why couldn't I do it. 

Arm rotation. I didn't have a free rotation of my upper arm, I was locked in place. Easy to overdo it early and open up the clubface but when letting my arm rotate and "set the tray" as Monte talks about, voila, without even really thinking I ended up here:

 

 

 

Is that a good thing? Maybe or maybe not. No idea what it will do to ballflight but at the moment it feels more "natural" to have the clubface rotating a little more but I can see how that could bring in a more pronounced two way miss. This is a recurring theme with me. I start to lock all parts of my body down in hopes of "controlling" my ballflight by restricting my swing...usually with mixed results in the short term and then bad results long term. No body movement and a stiff, straightjacket looking swing. I think I can try this for a while to "play freely" or at least see how it goes on the range. I have been through this cycle a few times now but never with the underpinning of a swing methodology like Monte's, it has always been mostly self guided. I watched this monte video that reminded me to set the tray. 

 

 

Finally, I have seen a lot of warnings about "forearm roll" leading to too much of a takeaway inside but for me it is the opposite. If I don't forearm roll at least a little bit I end up trapped under plane. All this is temporary and I have a tendency to overreact, I am under no illusions that I have "found it" but more so I just have a freer feeling swing at the moment. High likelihood I spray it all over the range and I come back to this thread depressed and dejected. 
 

wow buddy, I am exhausted and anxious just reading this post, but intrigued at the same time, Iove the way you describe what you are thinking about and going through, please please keep writing and keep us updated on your progress and results. 

I am quite interested, thanks for sharing...

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1 minute ago, Jim Shaw said:

wow buddy, I am exhausted and anxious just reading this post,

Haha, thanks Jim. I am an exhausting person to many people. This is definitely consuming most of my free thoughts at the moment and I am deep in a vortex of my own creation. But this is also experimentation and (could be/should be) fun at certain points. I have a lot of personal validation tied up in how well I am playing golf at certain point in time (which is sad) and when I see/sense something is off I cannot leave it alone. I should get some professional help (from Monte) but since it is Thanksgiving that will have to wait until early December. Until then, I am putting myself in the torture chamber every night out there with my net and my iphone camera. I think I have 6 straight days of hitting balls for at least 30 minutes (10 minutes on and then a video check/mental break for 5 minutes, repeat x 2) and don't see myself slowing down unless it snows or rains (heavily...I was out there in the rain last night).

I may fail via lack of understanding or skill but I will not fail for lack of trying. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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4 minutes ago, vandyland said:

This is definitely consuming most of my free thoughts at the moment and I am deep in a vortex of my own creation. But this is also experimentation and (could be/should be) fun at certain points. I have a lot of personal validation tied up in how well I am playing golf at certain point in time (which is sad) and when I see/sense something is off I cannot leave it alone.

I hope you get this figured out.   You have way more invested in getting to some defined appearance than I ever would.   Hopefully it doesn’t drive you crazy trying to get to that point.   

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
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How freaking funny. I just watched this last night on the swing plane. Of course, I was just out in the garage checking myself. The part about using the coat hanger is about 3/4 of the way through the video. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Finally, I have seen a lot of warnings about "forearm roll" leading to too much of a takeaway inside but for me it is the opposite.

The warning is doing it to early in the swing. Many amateurs do it early, for the most part it’s what is their takeaway. 
 

In the efficient swing series Monte talks about the forearm roll and it’s part of what gets the club into position at p3. What you want to see is what’s talked about in the video above for pros vs ams shallowing. At p3 the butt of of the club should be pointing at the ball line (draw a line from the ball straight back) or up to 6” inside it. More than 6” and you are too steep in the takeaway. Outside the line and you are getting too flat. 
 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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3 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

How freaking funny. I just watched this last night on the swing plane. Of course, I was just out in the garage checking myself. The part about using the coat hanger is about 3/4 of the way through the video. 

 

 

 

This seems to be the left forearm flying wedge concept that TGM (The Golfing Machine)  uses.  The 'ideal'  is to always have the shaft tracing the ball-target line in the backswing and downswing. Obviously that can't happen when the club is parallel to the ball-target line (ie. P2 , maybe P4, P6).

The right arm/wrist/hand   is being used support the left forearm flying wedge to always be 'on plane' (ie. shaft tracing the ball-target line) even as the club shaft may change plane angles (see images below).

image.png.39ea24aeea465126430dc34262f00726.png

As an example , lets assume the above golfer was swinging 'On Plane' during the downswing . As his downswing progresses, the shaft swing plane changes from the blue to the red line , but it would still point /trace the ball-target line .   

Look at the Anthony Kim images below where the shaft is moving from a steep to flatter plane while he retains the left forearm flying wedge but the shaft is still 'On Plane'  all the time because the shaft is tracing the ball-target line.

The right 'arm/wrist/hand' is supporting the intact 'Left Forearm Flying Wedge to keep it 'On Plane' (see image below where I've drawn the red triangle LFFW .

image.png.7e3ad88f6cceb8bf02e3064a643a0e29.png

 

Seems like a simpler qualitative concept for performing a golf swing.  

With regards the AMG video about their definition of shallowing the club , that's not how I perceive it .  I regard shallowing the 'club's instantaneous swing plane' relative to the 'instantaneous hand plane'  like DJ and RF below. The red line is his hand path and its obvious that the club is shallowing relative to instantaneous hand path/plane.

image.png.d8f9f723bba743a427344c0dec1a04d5.png

image.png.a8220159362ff20305b332de237808ef.png

 

Phil Mickelson shallows his club according to the AMG definition which is the angle the shaft makes relative to the ground  but he doesn't according to the definition that I've been using.

Here is PM whose shaft swings closely to his hand plane , therefore isn't shallowing (according to the alternative definition).   There is no consensus of opinion about many terms used in the golf swing and 'Release' and 'Shallowing' are a few examples.

image.png.84ec1fa315d40856de85d6f52f7a2b5e.png

 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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On 11/17/2023 at 9:41 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

I see a couple setup issues that are working against what you are trying to do. First congrats on getting setup more square.

balance points are hurting you here. The back of your armpits are out past the balls of your feet and the arms too far away as a result. 

RB, I eventually get to your points as I work around on all my ailments. You made a good point here and is probably a reason why even tour players work on their grips and setups constantly. Anyway, I take your point that I am setting myself up for failure, balance wise, in the swing. My setup pulls me towards the ball in dynamic balance if I setup this I have been:

image.png.af6692f307549e9782da5c7183515aaf.png

Shoulders out over toes, butt a little too far forward, etc. I went back and watched Monte's setup fundamentals video and here he is:

image.png.d70828c6b94c17b1f40e1cf30c6086ba.png

Notably his shoulder is lined up with his toes and his hands are closer to his belt buckle. I tried this last night during my "session" but I think I am not all the way there (stance is still al little closed which probably distorts it a tad):

image.png.add8f980ca6815d44716005a94aff11d.png

So here, my should is back and hands are closer to my body so that I am not reaching so far in my setup but monte's hands even more under his shoulders whereas I am still reaching a tad. Squaring the stance and getting my hands slightly closer might be the play. 

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15 minutes ago, vandyland said:

RB, I eventually get to your points as I work around on all my ailments. You made a good point here and is probably a reason why even tour players work on their grips and setups constantly. Anyway, I take your point that I am setting myself up for failure, balance wise, in the swing. My setup pulls me towards the ball in dynamic balance if I setup this I have been:

image.png.af6692f307549e9782da5c7183515aaf.png

Shoulders out over toes, butt a little too far forward, etc. I went back and watched Monte's setup fundamentals video and here he is:

image.png.d70828c6b94c17b1f40e1cf30c6086ba.png

Notably his shoulder is lined up with his toes and his hands are closer to his belt buckle. I tried this last night during my "session" but I think I am not all the way there (stance is still al little closed which probably distorts it a tad):

image.png.add8f980ca6815d44716005a94aff11d.png

So here, my should is back and hands are closer to my body so that I am not reaching so far in my setup but monte's hands even more under his shoulders whereas I am still reaching a tad. Squaring the stance and getting my hands slightly closer might be the play. 

Compete your hip angle to Monte’s. Your belt is point more straight ahead than his is. You need more bend at the waist. Not push the butt back but just bend at the waist.

the arms should hang naturally and that would put the hands under the chin with and iron. For a driver you would do the same then push the arms out to get into position. Monte’s setup is a little more Gankas like with the rounded shoulders but more bent over than Gankas prefers.

One video on an easy and repeatable setup

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

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Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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Well had a thanksgiving break (but not a break from obsessing over my golf swing....that is on going) and was able to play twice with mixed results. I shot 76 where I shot 41 on the front and then "gave up" on the new swing and went back to my flat swing (I was playing with my brothers in law so I had to beat them) and shot a tidy 35 (-1) on the back. Then I played by myself on Sunday so I was able to focus on making a few changes and, as expected, I did not strike the ball well. Shot an 80 (39/41) BUT did have a few very well struck shots (and also several tops from the middle of the fairway which I haven't hit in what feels like years). 

I had been struggling to find a feel that married my current swing feels with higher hands but I settled on something over this last week that may help and/or be the culprit. The trail arm/elbow folds too much and too early. Most golf instruction would probably say you don't want your trail arm forming anything past a 90* angle (i.e. a smaller angle would be bad) in the trail elbow. I am able to get into a better position below because my trail arm is getting closer to 90* and my trail elbow is "higher", almost like a flying right elbow feel to get the hands higher. 

image.png.173b3cbcb502b830e1eaa85161c4f6e0.png

As a reminder to myself, this is the swing that started all of this mess, low trail elbow, lead arm is below shoulder plane and trail arm is definitely folded more than 90*. 

image.png.e1e66ac26b47fe184ba51ef46d19d567.png

On the course this weekend I was filming swings without looking at them and this is where I was settling which is somewhere between where I was and where I want to be:

image.png.ad25f83c764e156d6f14d2ae8cc45a29.png

Monte is having a Black Friday sale so I need to get on his calendar anyway. Will chat with him about this trail arm business and see what he thinks about this endeavor. I really don't want to get too sucked into what my golf swing looks like but here I am. I will say on well struck shots with this slightly steeper swing that my spin seemed to be a bit higher which would be a welcome thing for me. My wedges were actually spinning back a few feet for once. 

Also, Titleist has a good option for me to use a floatie (they call it a "water wing") to help my trail arm structure so I am leaving this for myself later:

https://www.titleist.com/instruction/improve-your-trail-arm-structure

image.png.ef32e9563dce5fe6557f94d91f9cbc7b.pngimage.png.64ef4900c3e2e9b510500071ec6e3413.pngimage.png.6f177b8db2168bc2d4e5c8322df7bb0e.png

Edited by vandyland

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Well had a thanksgiving break (but not a break from obsessing over my golf swing....that is on going) and was able to play twice with mixed results. I shot 76 where I shot 41 on the front and then "gave up" on the new swing and went back to my flat swing (I was playing with my brothers in law so I had to beat them) and shot a tidy 35 (-1) on the back. Then I played by myself on Sunday so I was able to focus on making a few changes and, as expected, I did not strike the ball well. Shot an 80 (39/41) BUT did have a few very well struck shots (and also several tops from the middle of the fairway which I haven't hit in what feels like years). 

I had been struggling to find a feel that married my current swing feels with higher hands but I settled on something over this last week that may help and/or be the culprit. The trail arm/elbow folds too much and too early. Most golf instruction would probably say you don't want your trail arm forming anything past a 90* angle (i.e. a smaller angle would be bad) in the trail elbow. I am able to get into a better position below because my trail arm is getting closer to 90* and my trail elbow is "higher", almost like a flying right elbow feel to get the hands higher. 

image.png.173b3cbcb502b830e1eaa85161c4f6e0.png

As a reminder to myself, this is the swing that started all of this mess, low trail elbow, lead arm is below shoulder plane and trail arm is definitely folded more than 90*. 

image.png.e1e66ac26b47fe184ba51ef46d19d567.png

On the course this weekend I was filming swings without looking at them and this is where I was settling which is somewhere between where I was and where I want to be:

image.png.ad25f83c764e156d6f14d2ae8cc45a29.png

Monte is having a Black Friday sale so I need to get on his calendar anyway. Will chat with him about this trail arm business and see what he thinks about this endeavor. I really don't want to get too sucked into what my golf swing looks like but here I am. I will say on well struck shots with this slightly steeper swing that my spin seemed to be a bit higher which would be a welcome thing for me. My wedges were actually spinning back a few feet for once. 

Also, Titleist has a good option for me to use a floatie (they call it a "water wing") to help my trail arm structure so I am leaving this for myself later:

https://www.titleist.com/instruction/improve-your-trail-arm-structure

image.png.ef32e9563dce5fe6557f94d91f9cbc7b.pngimage.png.64ef4900c3e2e9b510500071ec6e3413.pngimage.png.6f177b8db2168bc2d4e5c8322df7bb0e.png

AMG has an older video with a swim foatie too. For the same purpose of limiting the trail elbow from over bending

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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7 hours ago, vandyland said:

Well had a thanksgiving break (but not a break from obsessing over my golf swing....that is on going) and was able to play twice with mixed results. I shot 76 where I shot 41 on the front and then "gave up" on the new swing and went back to my flat swing (I was playing with my brothers in law so I had to beat them) and shot a tidy 35 (-1) on the back. Then I played by myself on Sunday so I was able to focus on making a few changes and, as expected, I did not strike the ball well. Shot an 80 (39/41) BUT did have a few very well struck shots (and also several tops from the middle of the fairway which I haven't hit in what feels like years). 

I had been struggling to find a feel that married my current swing feels with higher hands but I settled on something over this last week that may help and/or be the culprit. The trail arm/elbow folds too much and too early. Most golf instruction would probably say you don't want your trail arm forming anything past a 90* angle (i.e. a smaller angle would be bad) in the trail elbow. I am able to get into a better position below because my trail arm is getting closer to 90* and my trail elbow is "higher", almost like a flying right elbow feel to get the hands higher. 

image.png.173b3cbcb502b830e1eaa85161c4f6e0.png

As a reminder to myself, this is the swing that started all of this mess, low trail elbow, lead arm is below shoulder plane and trail arm is definitely folded more than 90*. 

image.png.e1e66ac26b47fe184ba51ef46d19d567.png

On the course this weekend I was filming swings without looking at them and this is where I was settling which is somewhere between where I was and where I want to be:

image.png.ad25f83c764e156d6f14d2ae8cc45a29.png

Monte is having a Black Friday sale so I need to get on his calendar anyway. Will chat with him about this trail arm business and see what he thinks about this endeavor. I really don't want to get too sucked into what my golf swing looks like but here I am. I will say on well struck shots with this slightly steeper swing that my spin seemed to be a bit higher which would be a welcome thing for me. My wedges were actually spinning back a few feet for once. 

Also, Titleist has a good option for me to use a floatie (they call it a "water wing") to help my trail arm structure so I am leaving this for myself later:

https://www.titleist.com/instruction/improve-your-trail-arm-structure

image.png.ef32e9563dce5fe6557f94d91f9cbc7b.pngimage.png.64ef4900c3e2e9b510500071ec6e3413.pngimage.png.6f177b8db2168bc2d4e5c8322df7bb0e.png

good explanation on what your concern is, I heard Micheal Breed talk a lot about "trail elbow" so may be worth a look. 

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