Sorting through Swing Thoughts / Accountability thread

[cnosil]

24 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Just an FYI.. a few years ago I was party of the group of testers for the ExPutt indoor putting simulator.

Yep - you read that right.

Overall, despite a few minor quirks and few "would like to have" items .. and I believe there's a newer version out, the tester group was generally favorably impressed with it.

In "Practice" nice you can roll those longer putts (straight and level) fur as long as you like!

 

I was a tester also and feel like it did wonders for my distance control.  Easy way to practice this area of your game without having to go to the course. 

[vandyland]

Hit balls for 30 minutes last night and felt like I had the feel back again. Last night it was weight shift forward before end of backswing + starting downswing with hands + delaying turn as much as possible. Should have putted but I didn't. Another example of why my putting stays where it is. 

I did an analysis of my last 7 rounds (all at the same course from the same tees) and determine that I am struggling, consistently, with these holes:

Hole 1 (9th hardest per HDCP) - short, treacherous par 4 that I have bogeyed or worse 43% of the time and my stroke average vs par is +0.57 shots
Hole 4 (7th hardest per HDCP) - my favorite hole on the golf course (it is a cool design) and should fit my eye but it is currently playing as the hardest hole for me. Bogey or worse 43% of the time and avg vs par is +0.71 shots
Hole 7 (11th hardest per HDCP - dogleg right (I draw the ball so that is the challenge) that I have bogeyed or worse 43% of the time and average vs par is +0.43 shots

So what can I do about it? Well, some of it is addressable. I will start with Hole 1 (365 yd par 4): The headline is just hit a 6 iron and be in the fairway. Going into the water is 9 times out of 10 what sinks people on this hole. 

So there is water that is very much in play off the tee. The fairway tilts hard toward the water as well so anything left of center is probably going into the water. Being in the trees right is hit or miss but usually you can be okay. The green also drops off heavily off the back and left so you just can't be long here, well placed bunkers that you don't want to be in. 

Hole 4 (430 yd par 4): This requires a lot of strategy and lately I have just been banging driver, hence the bad scoring. So check this hole out:

The white line is probably the "intended line" but the yellow line is the line I have to take if I want my driver to stay in play. If I hit it straight or even a little right it goes into the right trees which have native area in there and typically it can be a lost ball or a hack out. I have even driven it in the bunker a few times which is about 305. But, if I look at this strategically, the tee shot is 20 ft downhill, the ground tilts left to right (opposite of the dogleg) and the effective landing zone for my driver is like 25 yds (because you can't really go way left due to all the trees down the left that are 40-70 ft tall). It is a very well designed hole that doesn't look penal but is. I have been playing it like an idiot most days. What I should be doing is hitting hybrid about 250 yds out there (65 yds wide landing zone) which leaves me a much longer shot in 170-190 yds out but I should have a clear look almost all the time. I will try this strategy the next few times and see if it helps with bogey avoidance. 

Hole 7 (394 yd par 4): This is a fairly gentle dogleg right and this hole just does not fit my eye at all. It is a pretty uncomfortable tee shot if I am going for the fairway as you have to fade it due to the fairway movement AND the tall trees down the right. So my dilemma is, do I just try to blast driver (see the yellow line) and try to get lucky or do I take my medicine with a driving iron and then have like 180 yds into this green.  Honestly not sure which is the better play since I have bogeyed this hole both ways recently. 

[Jim Shaw]

9 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Hit balls for 30 minutes last night and felt like I had the feel back again. Last night it was weight shift forward before end of backswing + starting downswing with hands + delaying turn as much as possible. Should have putted but I didn't. Another example of why my putting stays where it is. 

I did an analysis of my last 7 rounds (all at the same course from the same tees) and determine that I am struggling, consistently, with these holes:

Hole 1 (9th hardest per HDCP) - short, treacherous par 4 that I have bogeyed or worse 43% of the time and my stroke average vs par is +0.57 shots
Hole 4 (7th hardest per HDCP) - my favorite hole on the golf course (it is a cool design) and should fit my eye but it is currently playing as the hardest hole for me. Bogey or worse 43% of the time and avg vs par is +0.71 shots
Hole 7 (11th hardest per HDCP - dogleg right (I draw the ball so that is the challenge) that I have bogeyed or worse 43% of the time and average vs par is +0.43 shots

So what can I do about it? Well, some of it is addressable. I will start with Hole 1 (365 yd par 4): The headline is just hit a 6 iron and be in the fairway. Going into the water is 9 times out of 10 what sinks people on this hole. 

So there is water that is very much in play off the tee. The fairway tilts hard toward the water as well so anything left of center is probably going into the water. Being in the trees right is hit or miss but usually you can be okay. The green also drops off heavily off the back and left so you just can't be long here, well placed bunkers that you don't want to be in. 

Hole 4 (430 yd par 4): This requires a lot of strategy and lately I have just been banging driver, hence the bad scoring. So check this hole out:

The white line is probably the "intended line" but the yellow line is the line I have to take if I want my driver to stay in play. If I hit it straight or even a little right it goes into the right trees which have native area in there and typically it can be a lost ball or a hack out. I have even driven it in the bunker a few times which is about 305. But, if I look at this strategically, the tee shot is 20 ft downhill, the ground tilts left to right (opposite of the dogleg) and the effective landing zone for my driver is like 25 yds (because you can't really go way left due to all the trees down the left that are 40-70 ft tall). It is a very well designed hole that doesn't look penal but is. I have been playing it like an idiot most days. What I should be doing is hitting hybrid about 250 yds out there (65 yds wide landing zone) which leaves me a much longer shot in 170-190 yds out but I should have a clear look almost all the time. I will try this strategy the next few times and see if it helps with bogey avoidance. 

Hole 7 (394 yd par 4): This is a fairly gentle dogleg right and this hole just does not fit my eye at all. It is a pretty uncomfortable tee shot if I am going for the fairway as you have to fade it due to the fairway movement AND the tall trees down the right. So my dilemma is, do I just try to blast driver (see the yellow line) and try to get lucky or do I take my medicine with a driving iron and then have like 180 yds into this green.  Honestly not sure which is the better play since I have bogeyed this hole both ways recently. 

what an interesting post, interesting how you have detailed the 3 holes that you are having challenges with. It sounds like you are heading in the right direction laying up to a spot and having a longer second in, number 4 and number 7 are severe doglegs so the white line makes sense on those two, hole 1 looks right as well. 

You are obviously a solid golfer, one bit of advice could be to just aim for the centre of the green on your second shots, another bit of advice I received from my sports psychologist was "don't focus too hard on the line off the tee, you are a good golfer, just trust that you will be close to your intended line" this helped loosen me up a bit and help me release hands. 

You have me thinking about the 3 toughest holes for me on my home course, number 8 is a long par 4 second shot at least 1 club to 1-1/2 clubs uphill to a 3 tiered green, after playing it many times i changed my line off the tee to actually find the right side of the fairway, it opens up the approach to the green and hits away from the water at about 235 from the tee. so in summary I worked out a way I could get as close as I can without going in the water. 

number 12, par 4 with water at about 210 and it is 30 yds to carry the water so alway lay up but lay up as close to the water as possible, again at least one club uphill to a difficult green, really have to commit off the tee to get a good shot at the flag.

number 15 again a longish par 4, water creeps in at about 220 and runs all the way to the green on the left side, I play a soft draw off the tee to I have to find a narrow line off the tee and commit to that line. 

Ahh, so putting my thoughts into words one thing seems to repeat itself, commit and confidence, commit to you plan with confidence, maybe that will help.

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, Jim Shaw said:

Ahh, so putting my thoughts into words one thing seems to repeat itself, commit and confidence, commit to you plan with confidence, maybe that will help.

Yes, I agree @Jim Shaw and thanks for your response! So much of this thread is self serving but I do truly appreciate others feedback. It started out as a way to keep myself accountable to working on my swing but now has developed into an analysis of where I am "losing." To your point, sometimes writing it down makes it all very clear. Hole 1 is so short there is almost no reason or benefit to bringing the water into play. Hole 4 is all about "where do i want to take the risk" off the tee or into the green? Obviously the risk is significantly less into the green so that is the option, off the tee brings lost ball into play whereas second shot doesn't. Finally the 7th hole the jury is still out. The line off the tee looks like this:

So unless I can launch it REALLY high really quickly, I don't have room to hit a draw without hitting those trees. Again those, trees off in the distance to the left aren't as bothersome so maybe I just aim for those. Left of the left trees is another fairway so that isn't terrible either. 

@Jim Shaw What is your home course? I love looking at other people's challenging holes on google earth as you can see landing zones, elevation, etc. 

[Jim Shaw]

7 hours ago, vandyland said:

Yes, I agree @Jim Shaw and thanks for your response! So much of this thread is self serving but I do truly appreciate others feedback. It started out as a way to keep myself accountable to working on my swing but now has developed into an analysis of where I am "losing." To your point, sometimes writing it down makes it all very clear. Hole 1 is so short there is almost no reason or benefit to bringing the water into play. Hole 4 is all about "where do i want to take the risk" off the tee or into the green? Obviously the risk is significantly less into the green so that is the option, off the tee brings lost ball into play whereas second shot doesn't. Finally the 7th hole the jury is still out. The line off the tee looks like this:

So unless I can launch it REALLY high really quickly, I don't have room to hit a draw without hitting those trees. Again those, trees off in the distance to the left aren't as bothersome so maybe I just aim for those. Left of the left trees is another fairway so that isn't terrible either. 

@Jim Shaw What is your home course? I love looking at other people's challenging holes on google earth as you can see landing zones, elevation, etc. 

My home course is called Olympic View in Langford British Columbia. 

[vandyland]

12 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

My home course is called Olympic View in Langford British Columbia. 

Looks very challenging! Seems like if you hit it offline it is gone in the forest and also appears as though there is several hundred feet of elevation change across the property. 

[Jim Shaw]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Looks very challenging! Seems like if you hit it offline it is gone in the forest and also appears as though there is several hundred feet of elevation change across the property. 

Not much room left or right…what I really like is the practice facilities, large grass driving range, 3 practice putting greens (so you can find one that is not being used) thanks for searching it up @vandyland

[vandyland]

On 10/4/2023 at 11:14 AM, Jim Shaw said:

You have me thinking about the 3 toughest holes for me on my home course, number 8 is a long par 4 second shot at least 1 club to 1-1/2 clubs uphill to a 3 tiered green, after playing it many times i changed my line off the tee to actually find the right side of the fairway, it opens up the approach to the green and hits away from the water at about 235 from the tee. so in summary I worked out a way I could get as close as I can without going in the water. 

Main point, hole #12 looks like my nightmare. Just lost ball city there. That is a good candidate for "hardest hole" thread. 

I see what you mean on #8, it looks like you want to hit about a 250 yd (or 235 yds as you said) shot into what is a 53 yd wide landing zone but I guess you have the other fairway right as well? The farther right, the less you have to deal with the bunker left. Also crazy to see that the very back of the green is almost 7 feet higher than the front edge. That is wild. That hole basically forces you to lay back a little. 

 

On number 12, this just looks like an impossible hole. The landing zone at 190 yds is only like 26 yds which is very tight. Also looks like the fairway tilts left to right TOWARDS THE WATER. YEESH. I already am scared of this hole. I feel like this hole would still be challenging WITHOUT the water. With the water it looks borderline unfair. 

Hole 15, finally, this has a bottleneck at 220 yds so it just make sure you hit the fairway right? Then you have a mid to longish iron into a green that seems to fall off on all sides. This looks tough as well. The WHOLE COURSE looks tough, Jim. No wonder you are a good player, it is either get good or give up with this kind of trouble. 

[Jim Shaw]

4 hours ago, vandyland said:

Main point, hole #12 looks like my nightmare. Just lost ball city there. That is a good candidate for "hardest hole" thread. 

I see what you mean on #8, it looks like you want to hit about a 250 yd (or 235 yds as you said) shot into what is a 53 yd wide landing zone but I guess you have the other fairway right as well? The farther right, the less you have to deal with the bunker left. Also crazy to see that the very back of the green is almost 7 feet higher than the front edge. That is wild. That hole basically forces you to lay back a little. 

 

On number 12, this just looks like an impossible hole. The landing zone at 190 yds is only like 26 yds which is very tight. Also looks like the fairway tilts left to right TOWARDS THE WATER. YEESH. I already am scared of this hole. I feel like this hole would still be challenging WITHOUT the water. With the water it looks borderline unfair. 

Hole 15, finally, this has a bottleneck at 220 yds so it just make sure you hit the fairway right? Then you have a mid to longish iron into a green that seems to fall off on all sides. This looks tough as well. The WHOLE COURSE looks tough, Jim. No wonder you are a good player, it is either get good or give up with this kind of trouble. 

i love how you do this with the holes... 8, I usually aim at those 2 apple trees on the right of the water, I try to get as close to the green as possible, and it is a 3 tiered green so not easy once you get on there, 12 is not too bad, you can lay up to the 150 then hit a 160 club to the middle of the green, I try and get as close to the end as possible, usually hit 4 iron hybrid about 180 from the white tees, 15, when you stand at the tee box I point out an Arbutus tree behind the green, you HAVE to be right of that or you are wet, and you cant see the penalty area from the tee we have a drop area which isnt always in great shape... so yeah it is a beast, slope of 130 from the white tees, and the green complexes keep me sharpe at all times...

[vandyland]

Well, played my nemesis holes over the weekend at even par! Took 6 iron off the tee on Number 1 and the water was never in play, easy 9 iron and 2 putt. Hit Hybrid on #4 and had a clear shot at the green with a 6 iron from 170 yds which was a little long for my liking but hit the green and two putted. Finally, on #7, just hammered a tee shot down the left tree line (306 yds total) and had a little flip wedge in for a 2 putt. I shot 78 due to missing some par 3 greens and not being able to get up and down and my recurring problem of making almost no birdies. 

As for the swing, working on not letting my hips spin out (as always) and doing that by almost feeling like I am restricting my lead hip from opening as long as possible. Working so far. I hit about 100 balls at the range on Friday and tested out a few new iron heads (Titleist T150 and Taylormade P770) along with a few different shafts (Nippon Modus 120 in the Titleist and KBS C taper in the Taylormade). All were 7 irons that I hit alongside my Ben Hogan 7 iron. Ultimately it was just fun to see the new offerings but nothing there that makes me want to change. But I did like the Nippon Modus feel except they seemed a tad light. 

Finally, we had a monday bank holiday and my club is closed on Monday so I went back out to my old muni I used to play for a throwback 9 holes. Couldn't believe how fun it was and I shot a fairly easy 34 on the middle 9. I hit every green in regulation except for #1 which I got up and down on fairly easily. Hit the par 5 that used to be unreachable with Driver + 5 iron....which is wild. So overall feeling good about my game and after having played private club greens that run at like 12-13 on the stimp, going back to 9 on the stimp felt SO MUCH easier. I think I am just very used to a slower speed. 

Edited October 10 by vandyland

[Jim Shaw]

13 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Well, played my nemesis holes over the weekend at even par! Took 6 iron off the tee on Number 1 and the water was never in play, easy 9 iron and 2 putt. Hit Hybrid on #4 and had a clear shot at the green with a 6 iron from 170 yds which was a little long for my liking but hit the green and two putted. Finally, on #7, just hammered a tee shot down the left tree line (306 yds total) and had a little flip wedge in for a 2 putt. I shot 78 due to missing some par 3 greens and not being able to get up and down and my recurring problem of making almost no birdies. 

As for the swing, working on not letting my hips spin out (as always) and doing that by almost feeling like I am restricting my lead hip from opening as long as possible. Working so far. I hit about 100 balls at the range on Friday and tested out a few new iron heads (Titleist T150 and Taylormade P770) along with a few different shafts (Nippon Modus 120 in the Titleist and KBS C taper in the Taylormade). All were 7 irons that I hit alongside my Ben Hogan 7 iron. Ultimately it was just fun to see the new offerings but nothing there that makes me want to change. But I did like the Nippon Modus feel except they seemed a tad light. 

Finally, we had a monday bank holiday and my club is closed on Monday so I went back out to my old muni I used to play for a throwback 9 holes. Couldn't believe how fun it was and I shot a fairly easy 34 on the middle 9. I hit every green in regulation except for #1 which I got up and down on fairly easily. Hit the par 5 that used to be unreachable with Driver + 5 iron....which is wild. So overall feeling good about my game and after having played private club greens that run at like 12-13 on the stimp, going back to 9 on the stimp felt SO MUCH easier. I think I am just very used to a slower speed. 

way to go, course management at it's finest...

[vandyland]

Hit balls on the range on Friday and was grooving just an easy "early release" 7 iron swing that I found I could hit beautiful push draws with. Felt so easy I almost wanted to jump on the course right then but I just didn't have the time. Then that night and saturday night our 2 year old daughter is pulling all nighters so everyone is pretty tired in the house at the moment. Even so, my patient wife still sent me out to the golf course on Sunday afternoon because I had been the one that was up with our daughter mostly both nights. 

Had a great ballstriking day Sunday, despite only hitting 11/18 greens things felt in control and my only swing thought was "early release" in my backswing, AKA cast, AKA don't hold any lag into the ball. Soft draws coming out almost all day and the driver was NUCLEAR. I think I had 6 drives roll out past 305 yds. Had a 1/2 wedge into a 410 yd par 4 which was crazy. 

The real highlight, other than 1-2 holes, was the putting. I started walking off my putts again and that seemed to help with distance control. I did this for a long time until I joined this club and then felt self conscious about it. I almost never see anyone else do this so I didn't want to be "the guy who walks off all his putts" or be seen as a slow. But I was able to do this in the flow of things rather easily and I wasn't racing balls 10 ft past the cup today. Will have to try to stick with that for the rest of the season. I actually gained 1.4 shots putting which is rare for me. Made 4 birdies on the day which is even rarer. 

[vandyland]

Hit about 75 balls on the range with just my 6 iron today and messed with a few things:

(1) Ball position - moved the ball back of my stance, middle of my stance and slightly forward and slightly forward (as expected) yielded the best results with the 6 iron. It is easier to come in shallower when the ball is more forward whereas with the ball back I feel much steeper. 

(2) Release, release, release - Everything works better when I prioritize the early cast to 8:00 and then 12:00. Also trying to keep my back to the target as longs as possible with my hands trying to lead everything. 

(3) Re-centering at the right time and not sliding - that is always a focus. 

 

Then went and putted for 10 minutes. Found that I wasn't really releasing my putter and was losing most putts right at first. By the end both the stroke and contact felt so much better. Try to keep that going!

[vandyland]

Played from the front tees this past weekend as a test, just to see if I could go low but my putting and the elements had other plans...

Weather: 25-30 mph winds (rare for TN) and the course was VERY dry. So, yeah....not ideal scoring conditions for me.

The good: I hit the ball really well and hit 6/7 fairways and 8/9 greens in regulation (hit both par 5s in 2 BUT 3 putted both of them) 

The bad: Putting and sand play. I had 3 different 3 putts during the round. I also had a pretty middling sand game on the day. No birdies but had 3 different birdie looks inside 10 ft and missed all of them. 

Thoughts on the forward tee experiment. It is definitely stress free golf off the tee and into the greens. I think I had flip wedge into 4 of the par 4s. But the putting drove me crazy. I think if you are a good/great putter you can really make up shots on the forward tees. I am a better driver and ballstriker of the golf ball so I actually do MUCH better relative to course handicap the farther back I go. Anyway, my dreams of going -2 or -3 on the front were quickly extinguished when I realized the hole is still the same size and I am a terrible putter. Haha.

[BMart519]

On 10/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, vandyland said:

Well, played my nemesis holes over the weekend at even par! Took 6 iron off the tee on Number 1 and the water was never in play, easy 9 iron and 2 putt. Hit Hybrid on #4 and had a clear shot at the green with a 6 iron from 170 yds which was a little long for my liking but hit the green and two putted. Finally, on #7, just hammered a tee shot down the left tree line (306 yds total) and had a little flip wedge in for a 2 putt. I shot 78 due to missing some par 3 greens and not being able to get up and down and my recurring problem of making almost no birdies. 

Above was going to be my advice based on my understanding of decade... 

- Only alternative to layup on 1 would be trying to hit driver into adjacent fairway on right, which is probably not going to win many friends at the club. There's much worse things than having an easy 6 iron off the tee for your first shot of the round. It can be a nice psychological boost walking up to your approach shot after just hitting a good iron as well. 
- Too much trouble through dogleg on 4, just play to widest part with a club you can hit full out without worry of running into trouble. It also seems to have least trouble and most room around the green. Easy to bail out left if you are worried about coming up short on the approach.  
- The trees are very sparse on left side of #7 and if you miss left you are in adjacent hole with a good line. Bombs away 

[vandyland]

On vacation but still got some shortgame practice in with the kids today. Mostly just trying to catch it perfectly off this super tight turf and spin it a little. Feeling good going into my target golf round tomorrow at The Links at Sandestin (trouble everywhere there, very much Florida residential development golf).

 

[BMart519]

5 minutes ago, vandyland said:

On vacation but still got some shortgame practice in with the kids today. Mostly just trying to catch it perfectly off this super tight turf and spin it a little. Feeling good going into my target golf round tomorrow at The Links at Sandestin (trouble everywhere there, very much Florida residential development golf).

 

And I thought I was bad bringing my own putter to the resort mini-golf! Hah

[vandyland]

Played an old nemesis today out in Destin and (mostly) got revenge. I shot -2 (34) on the front but came back down to earth a little with a 39 on the back for a 73. Overall, very happy with the round and had great weather. Almost all draws today which did well in the winds.

 

[vandyland]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:26 PM, BMart519 said:

- Only alternative to layup on 1 would be trying to hit driver into adjacent fairway on right, which is probably not going to win many friends at the club. There's much worse things than having an easy 6 iron off the tee for your first shot of the round. It can be a nice psychological boost walking up to your approach shot after just hitting a good iron as well. 

That is an interesting observation! I have never thought to even consider that but it may actually be doable. This is the line off the tee which doesn't have trees that are too tall...

And if I hit it about 260-270 I have a 50 yd wide landing zone...

And anywhere from 130 yds to 105 yds left in. I could get mildly blocked out if I am too close to the left tree line but with a wedge I can hit it over or if I have to go under I have a little room to run it up. If I bomb one I would have an almost unimpeded run at the flag from like 90 yds or less. Thanks for the idea @BMart519!

------------------------------------------------------

Another hole where I am probably needing a strategy shift is #17 the big dogleg right par 5 that everyone seems to handle fine except me. Plays about 20 ft downhill and is 515-540 yds depending on where the tee markers are. 

The choice comes in on the second shot which, if executed correctly is from the left side of the fairway past the dogleg. This is reachable for me BUT the white line represents where I typically miss it. I play a draw so I start it out there and a lot of times it just stays out there. You MUST carry the two short bunkers right or face a really tough 3rd shot (especially from the farther of the two bunkers) and that is typically anywhere from a 185 yd to a 205 yd carry. Now, the yellow line probably represents where I should aim for. I say that because the green tilts VERY hard from right to left towards the left bunker, so any shot right of the bunker is in the rough going massively downhill downgrain and is like impossible to stop. So if you lay up short left, you are pitching into the hill and can use the slope to get the ball closer (in theory). Why I don't do this I don't know. 

So for my next round I think my two goals will be to try to hit driver down the #9 fairway on #1 (assuming there are no people standing out there at the time) and deliberately layup short left on #17 if I am in the "go zone." 

 

[BMart519]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:42 AM, vandyland said:

Another hole where I am probably needing a strategy shift is #17 the big dogleg right par 5 that everyone seems to handle fine except me. Plays about 20 ft downhill and is 515-540 yds depending on where the tee markers are. 

So for my next round I think my two goals will be to try to hit driver down the #9 fairway on #1 (assuming there are no people standing out there at the time) and deliberately layup short left on #17 if I am in the "go zone." 

 

Based on your miss, make your start line just right of the yellow line through the window between bunkers on front of green (or inside edge of tree behind green to the right). If you hit a block with no draw, it runs onto the green. Looks like lots of room left other than getting stuck behind that tree. Then adjust club whether going for it or playing short of left trap. If playing conservative, use the same line and pick the club when hit the best won't reach the left trap and swing away.