Putter shafts - Do they matter?

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, B_R_A_D_Y said:

 I honestly doubt there is more than a stroke difference in my putting between my 40yr old wood mallet with a standard steel shaft, my SpiderX with stock shaft, & my LAB with a $250 BGT Stability Tour

Probably not much more than a stroke difference over many rounds.  IMO, this is the misconception that people have with putter fitting and these shafts….they want to see more than a stroke difference in every round and that probably isn’t going to happen.  

[CFreddie]

19 minutes ago, B_R_A_D_Y said:

I gotta say, while I’m not a high level competitor, I play 3 tough skins games a week, & putter confidence is big in my putting success. I honestly doubt there is more than a stroke difference in my putting between my 40yr old wood mallet with a standard steel shaft, my SpiderX with stock shaft, & my LAB with a $250 BGT Stability Tour … BUT I will always feel like I do better with the LAB, and the shaft is a big part of that preconception. Oftentimes, you convince yourself that your prejudices are correct, irregardless of the facts. And that breeds confidence, Billy Baroo … “Oh, Billy, Billy, Billy!”

 

Imagining @B_R_A_D_Y channeling his inner Judge Smails at the moment...

[John S]

The putter- stroke- stance- face/shaft angle- is one of the most "individual and subjective areas in golf.  "different strokes for different folks"/

If asked if a shaft in a putter would make any difference 10 years ago I would have laughed the question off as foolish.  However, with the data now available from trackman technology the fact that the smash factor from a putter is typically higher than the smash factor of a driver, as high as 1.9 it follows that there may be advantages from a shaft matched to a desired smash factor.  A player that routinely putts on fast greens may look for a shaft that reduces his smash factor for example.   I am still not sold on this "benefit" but I can see where the numbers indicate that there may be something to this.  Putting still remains a very individual pursuit with subjective measures such as "feel" playing a big role in success.  I believe that anything that raises confidence benefits the player. If a shaft accomplishes this by all means give it a shot.   I would think that if you hit a variety of putters on a trackman and determined the smash factor that "felt" best you could match up shafts /head combinations that delivered the targeted results.  

[ATLTL]

I was finally able to find the rare and mint-used Miura KM-009 putter. It came with a black steel shaft that seemed to have a bit too much flex. I consistently came up short on longer (20-25) foot putts. I was in So Cal looking to buy the Stablity Tour shaft as I had some previous success with that shaft. Then, I started looking at what else was available. It came down to trying and testing the Stability Tour, LA Golf 105 & 135, and the Fujkura MC shaft. One of my favorite golf meccas is Plaza Golf in Torrance, CA. Called and talked at length with Scott about my results and he said to come in, we have all 3 installed and to try them all. He watched me out for almost 45 minutes and had a favorite which was the LA Golf 135. The Stability was fine but I had no real feel on the distance. The Fujikura was a close second but the LA Golf was just deadly on longer putts. Didnt have my putter so I told him I'd be back tomorrow to get it done.
Googled numerous youtube reviews on all 3 that night and was leaning toward the LA Golf shaft.
On the way to the store, I called LA Golf and spoke to Tyler, again for about 20 minutes, and the guy was a wealth of information. He dialed me in to the 105.

Sorry for the long version, but after having the LA Golf 105 shaft installed, I have never putted better. Short putts are done with major confidence and the longer putts are dying within the 18" gimme range. Yes, I know the shaft is $400 but what club do you use the most for 18 holes? And we have no issue buying a $600 driver most only use 14 times a round! It was an investment that I have no regrets doing.

[HDTVMAN]

19 minutes ago, cnosil said:

When did you do the training and were the new graphite shafts an option for you?  I exclude stroke lab as it doesn’t do what the newer graphite shafts do.  Also feel plays a huge role for professionals as they have built feels for ball speed and these shafts significantly change feel.   

what you state isn’t exclusive to Callaway and what any putter fitting should encompass.   The measurements are just trigonometry showing how much of an angle is allowed to catch the cup.   

Based on what you said if you didn’t try these shafts as part of your fitting, you may not have gotten the best fitting and what Jon Rahm uses should have no bearing on what you use.   His selection may be a combination of performance and his personal feels   

 

Yes, composite shafts were available, and yes, all manufacturers are very similar. Cameron (Encinitas), Ping (Phoenix), and Bettinardi (Chicago), which I've also been to are as exact as Odyssey. Every individual is different, as is every putter. I don't know Rahm's specs, but just saying if a composite shaft worked better for him, he'd have it. Very few composites on Cameron shafts. It's just what works best for you.

[NoRebound]

I'm still using the stock shaft on the Newport 2 that I've had in the bag for a decade.  I've never even talked to a fitter about those options.  Would they help, or is the shaft I already have the best option for that head and my stroke?  All good questions.

[DARsr]

I recently purchased a Paradise putter, made in Jupiter Florida and immediately noticed its "stiff" shaft compared to a Bentinardi B12.  Very different feel and one which I like.

[Manavs]

Measuring putter shafts has become one of my most fascinating research items to date.  Reading some of the commentary here I appreciate everyone's desire (psychosis ) in improving tech. 

There are only 2 machines designed to measure the shaft in time and space during a swing/stroke - GEARs being the one I have, and fuji's enso the other.  I've worked with multiple manufacturers as well as client testing putters where we look at their favorite gamer club, and compare it to their most hated gamer club. In that research the findings showed that there was no correlation to shaft droop or shaft deflection, however there was a massive correlation in the shaft twist parameter.  GEARs defines shaft twist as: axial rotation down the golf shaft between the club's grip and club's head. This measurement is reported in degrees and is an angular magnitude.

As a note - most will simply refer to this as "shaft torque" as has the entire shaft industry, however, I'll take this moment to point out that torque is an external force that is applied to a body.  You can torque a shaft, but a shaft doesnt have torque.  Torque is a measurement in Newton meter or Pound feet.  Yet the shaft industry tries to say torque is a measurement in degrees.  GEARs uses shaft twist and provides that number in degrees.

My research showed that there is a direct correlation between how much a player loves their putter to how little the shaft twists.  You can take that statement to the bank.  The most stable the putter shaft is from start to top of backswing, to impact, the more a player will like that putter.  When the shaft twists either clockwise, or counterclockwise, the timing aspect of that putter is not a desirable trait.

Now the real question is - what are the best shafts?  well, that depends.  I have seen some players use a stock smooth non-stepped putter shaft and have little twist, and i've seen the same have massive amounts of twist. 

The old school - 1980's and prior - ping stepped shafts - when tipped - were some of the most stable I've measured.

More current shafts, the Stability, Sack Parente, LAGP, and Accra putter shafts have yet to show any poor results and all seem to be a warranted purchase as they are all very very stable.

Steel wise, the KBS CT Tour putter shaft stood out as an excellent choice.  Fluted steel shafts are also better than non fluted.

Shafts I would stay away from are smooth non stepped steel shafts, stroke lab (low % of good results but there were some), anything that feels 'soft' or 'whippy.'

Stepped steel is better than non stepped steel, but still would avoid.

Overall stiffness is not direct indicator of stability, but it does serve as a factor.

I've attached a link to show how the shaft twist is measured below in comparing two different shafts.  The desirable graph is a flat line showing minimal to no axial twist of the shaft as in the gold shaft.  Blue shaft is one that is twisting the shaft closed, then opening on the downswing.  Very unreliable and difficult to form a consistent feel with.  The vertical dotted line on the left is top of the backswing, and the right one is impact. These putts were both swung at 5.20mph chs with grip speed of 1.63mph (gold) and 5.11mph chs with grip speed of 1.60mph (blue).  The gold shaft twisted a total of 0.13* while the blue was over 2.00*

 

 

Always appreciate the conversations here at MGS, hope this can add some color to the discussion.    

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, Manavs said:

 

Now the real question is - what are the best shafts?  well, that depends.  I have seen some players use a stock smooth non-stepped putter shaft and have little twist, and i've seen the same have massive amounts of twist. 

 

Imteresting points in your post.   My follow up would be based on the above.  Is there a way to predict what a particular player might find to be the best?   Were there any specific stroke characteristics that caused more or less twist? 

[Manavs]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

Imteresting points in your post.   My follow up would be based on the above.  Is there a way to predict what a particular player might find to be the best?   Were there any specific stroke characteristics that caused more or less twist? 

that's a hard and fast unfortunate no.  If I could predict shaft data (full swing or otherwise) I'd be calling numbers in Vegas.

That said, putter data is showing that these putter shafts that have been introduced in the marketplace over the last ~5 years are effective.

Also, measuring the shaft's participation in the swing is quite easy and effective. 

[JakeSmith2316]

18 minutes ago, Manavs said:

Measuring putter shafts has become one of my most fascinating research items to date.  Reading some of the commentary here I appreciate everyone's desire (psychosis ) in improving tech. 

There are only 2 machines designed to measure the shaft in time and space during a swing/stroke - GEARs being the one I have, and fuji's enso the other.  I've worked with multiple manufacturers as well as client testing putters where we look at their favorite gamer club, and compare it to their most hated gamer club. In that research the findings showed that there was no correlation to shaft droop or shaft deflection, however there was a massive correlation in the shaft twist parameter.  GEARs defines shaft twist as: axial rotation down the golf shaft between the club's grip and club's head. This measurement is reported in degrees and is an angular magnitude.

As a note - most will simply refer to this as "shaft torque" as has the entire shaft industry, however, I'll take this moment to point out that torque is an external force that is applied to a body.  You can torque a shaft, but a shaft doesnt have torque.  Torque is a measurement in Newton meter or Pound feet.  Yet the shaft industry tries to say torque is a measurement in degrees.  GEARs uses shaft twist and provides that number in degrees.

My research showed that there is a direct correlation between how much a player loves their putter to how little the shaft twists.  You can take that statement to the bank.  The most stable the putter shaft is from start to top of backswing, to impact, the more a player will like that putter.  When the shaft twists either clockwise, or counterclockwise, the timing aspect of that putter is not a desirable trait.

Now the real question is - what are the best shafts?  well, that depends.  I have seen some players use a stock smooth non-stepped putter shaft and have little twist, and i've seen the same have massive amounts of twist. 

The old school - 1980's and prior - ping stepped shafts - when tipped - were some of the most stable I've measured.

More current shafts, the Stability, Sack Parente, LAGP, and Accra putter shafts have yet to show any poor results and all seem to be a warranted purchase as they are all very very stable.

Steel wise, the KBS CT Tour putter shaft stood out as an excellent choice.  Fluted steel shafts are also better than non fluted.

Shafts I would stay away from are smooth non stepped steel shafts, stroke lab (low % of good results but there were some), anything that feels 'soft' or 'whippy.'

Stepped steel is better than non stepped steel, but still would avoid.

Overall stiffness is not direct indicator of stability, but it does serve as a factor.

I've attached a link to show how the shaft twist is measured below in comparing two different shafts.  The desirable graph is a flat line showing minimal to no axial twist of the shaft as in the gold shaft.  Blue shaft is one that is twisting the shaft closed, then opening on the downswing.  Very unreliable and difficult to form a consistent feel with.  The vertical dotted line on the left is top of the backswing, and the right one is impact. These putts were both swung at 5.20mph chs with grip speed of 1.63mph (gold) and 5.11mph chs with grip speed of 1.60mph (blue).  The gold shaft twisted a total of 0.13* while the blue was over 2.00*

 

 

Always appreciate the conversations here at MGS, hope this can add some color to the discussion.    

So you talk about the CT Tour being a good steel shaft with good feel. However you also stat that one should avoid stepless steel shafts. Does the CT not fit into the category? 

[Manavs]

15 minutes ago, JakeSmith2316 said:

So you talk about the CT Tour being a good steel shaft with good feel. However you also stat that one should avoid stepless steel shafts. Does the CT not fit into the category? 

Correct.  I mention the CT Tour as a specific brand that was manufactured for low shaft twist properties.  

For clarity, the ones I would stay away from are unbranded smooth steel shafts.  The stock stuff.  A few examples are the stock steel smooth shafts found in camerons, and pings. There are no tech in those and the data has shown it.

[JakeSmith2316]

36 minutes ago, Manavs said:

Correct.  I mention the CT Tour as a specific brand that was manufactured for low shaft twist properties.  

For clarity, the ones I would stay away from are unbranded smooth steel shafts.  The stock stuff.  A few examples are the stock steel smooth shafts found in camerons, and pings. There are no tech in those and the data has shown it.

Ah, makes sense, thank you for the clarification.

[JohnnyU]

To tell the truth I have a hard time thinking a putter shaft would improve my putting. For the record I am not a great putter, but I do not think that it has anything to do with the putter or shaft. I have the theory that any putter or shaft will work, you just have to believe it will work. Practice, practice, practice, is the key to consistent putting. I actually took a putting lesson this past winter (shoutout to Dillon Parisi at Ironworks golf lab, Beloit, WI) and have seen a great improvement so far this spring. I have not changed my putter or shaft, just my stroke. Maybe someday I will be good enough that the last piece I need is a different shaft. Just my two cents.

[JerryK]

Sorry, but I am a skeptic.  I simply do not see how a putter shaft could flex or twist on a putt of let's say 30 feet or less.  However, even if it does, how much will that affect the stroke?  So much of putting is feel and confidence.  Feel can be based upon the weight of the putter or perhaps the type of face on the putter such as smooth, milled or some type of insert.  You could make a case to me about the weight of the shaft and how you could use combinations of heads and shafts to create a different feel during the stroke.  But I would have to see it to believe it when you say that a shaft flexes during the stroke and if so, that it is significant enough that you can feel it and will determine the speed and/or the direction of the putt. 

[Manavs]

Just now, JerryK said:

Sorry, but I am a skeptic.  I simply do not see how a putter shaft could flex or twist on a putt of let's say 30 feet or less.  However, even if it does, how much will that affect the stroke?  So much of putting is feel and confidence.  Feel can be based upon the weight of the putter or perhaps the type of face on the putter such as smooth, milled or some type of insert.  You could make a case to me about the weight of the shaft and how you could use combinations of heads and shafts to create a different feel during the stroke.  But I would have to see it to believe it when you say that a shaft flexes during the stroke and if so, that it is significant enough that you can feel it and will determine the speed and/or the direction of the putt. 

Did you watch the video I posted?  Those were ~10 foot putts.  Euclidean math points out that 1* offline at 10 feet =2.07", the blue shaft in the video twisted in excess of 2*.  These aren't things to be skeptical about, i'm just showing the data I captured

Re: 'flex' of the shaft - we can measure the shaft in 3 planes of motion.  Twist is the only one I find to be significant in putting as the face has the greatest influence on the start line of the ball.  The other two directions are measured in millimeters of deflection (face forward ie adding loft) and millimeters of droop (toe down).  These two are hugely important in the dynamic loft and dynamic lie angle, however because of the speed of the putter head being swung and cg location to the shaft, putter shafts don't droop or deflect to any significant number.  Here are the deflection and droop of two shafts at impact.  The black stock, is the blue shaft from above, which is not as stable at impact as the lagp shaft, but it's still not significant in my world as the twist number is.  

 

 

As far as fitting a client to a putter, one has to calibrate to whatever they decide to hold in their hands.  The data i've compiled shows that putters that twist less for a player are easier to calibrate to than those that twist more, and players who like their putters the most, have putters with shafts with low twisting results. 

[JerryK]

So what is causing the shaft to twist - the way I would see it is that the head coming into contact with the ball causes the shaft to twist or turn - correct? Simply moving the putter back and forth would not cause any twisting - correct?  There is not enough speed for the shaft to flex - correct?  So if I am gripping the putter - holding it - and it impacts the ball the only time it would twist is if I somehow caused it to do so as opposed to impacting the ball in and of itself causing the putter to twist.  Again, I can see the value of a graphite shaft for feel issues and whether you like to feel the head moving or not, etc. 

[Manavs]

1 minute ago, JerryK said:

So what is causing the shaft to twist - the way I would see it is that the head coming into contact with the ball causes the shaft to twist or turn - correct? Simply moving the putter back and forth would not cause any twisting - correct?  There is not enough speed for the shaft to flex - correct?  So if I am gripping the putter - holding it - and it impacts the ball the only time it would twist is if I somehow caused it to do so as opposed to impacting the ball in and of itself causing the putter to twist.  Again, I can see the value of a graphite shaft for feel issues and whether you like to feel the head moving or not, etc. 

The weight of the clubhead and the cg of the club head moving in an arc will twist the shaft against the grip bends the shaft in all 3 planes of motion (6DoF).  There is some flexing as I posted in my previous post in toe droop and face deflection, but those are not zero, and it's also not significant.  The shaft twist is the significant variable from the research.

 

The torsional strength is what regulates the shaft twist.  since steel is a homogeneous material, it's properties are only influence by wall thickness, taper, and steps.  A graphite composite can have more layers placed, at different angles to reduce this twist.  Engineers use composite materials in order to control motion in these three planes,

 

Everything I'm discussing is prior to contact.  Once you have first touch, the ball has been given it's orders.  I'm concerned on shafts being stable to ensure better impact alignments

[Mackey]

I have tried the Stability shaft after getting fit for a putter.  It does what it is supposed to do.  It keeps the putter face from deflecting to much on off center hits in the toe.  

It won't make you a better putter.  It can't help with the read.  I won't help you match the line to the pace.  

Keep in mind the PGA Tour average from 8 feet is less than 50% in any given week.  

I sold that putter to my buddy and he loves it.  I went back to my putter that I've bagged for 20 years and stopped expecting to putt better than the pros.  I work on 30 foot lags and 3-5 footers.  

There is a lot to be said for playing the same putter for a long time.  You really get a feel for how it rolls.

[gophergutz]

12 hours ago, B_R_A_D_Y said:

I gotta say, while I’m not a high level competitor, I play 3 tough skins games a week, & putter confidence is big in my putting success. I honestly doubt there is more than a stroke difference in my putting between my 40yr old wood mallet with a standard steel shaft, my SpiderX with stock shaft, & my LAB with a $250 BGT Stability Tour … BUT I will always feel like I do better with the LAB, and the shaft is a big part of that preconception. Oftentimes, you convince yourself that your prejudices are correct, irregardless of the facts. And that breeds confidence, Billy Baroo … “Oh, Billy, Billy, Billy!”

A mind is a terrible thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,