Project x retail vs handcrafted shafts

[jbsap]

Curious if the handcrafted/pvd versions of the rdx shafts play differently than the standard retail versions? I’m assuming it’s probably along the lines of ventus vs ventus velocore. Anyone compared them directly and had any difference in performance? Specifically rdx blue, but also interested in the black as I’ve played it before. 

[storm319]

HC shafts are built to the same spec as non-HC. This originally started off as small volume runs out of the San Diego facility vs retail shafts produced out of China, but I believe TT moved the HC program to China a few years ago. Basically these are the same shafts just built by the higher skilled employees that have a lower quota (built slower) and have tighter post production tolerances (more potential scrap). Ideal examples of both should be identical. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 hours ago, storm319 said:

HC shafts are built to the same spec as non-HC. This originally started off as small volume runs out of the San Diego facility vs retail shafts produced out of China, but I believe TT moved the HC program to China a few years ago. Basically these are the same shafts just built by the higher skilled employees that have a lower quota (built slower) and have tighter post production tolerances (more potential scrap). Ideal examples of both should be identical. 

This. They are same materials. Same specs, just massed produced overseas. Not even close to the ventus non velocore and velocore.  Those are completely different shafts, not using the same material, not the same shaft profile and only share a name

PX switched over to predominantly an r&d facility and stopped producing HC shaft and shafts in general and shifted all the work to their overseas factory.

HC was more a marketing thing than anything else. They were producing around 60-100 shafts a day compared to the thousands that can be done in a factory 

[Tsecor]

are we suggesting the PX shafts have gone downhill from a quality standpoint? im seeimg two tales of the tape...one saying MASS PRODUCES overseas and one saying BUILT SLOWER, NO QUOTA....

Arent PX shafts made in Mississippi?

Edited May 9 by Tsecor

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

are we suggesting the PX shafts have gone downhill from a quality standpoint?

Not at all.

Not sure what storm319 is referring to as far as potential scrap. There is no tolerance measurement for the build to include in San Diego when the HC were made there. So nothing is getting tossed because it’s x grams off spec weight or it’s torque is off.

I’ve gone thru the entire process at px from the design to the finished product, including my 1 of 1 driver shaft
 

 

[Tsecor]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not at all.

Not sure what storm319 is referring to as far as potential scrap. There is no tolerance measurement for the build to include in San Diego when the HC were made there. So nothing is getting tossed because it’s x grams off spec weight or it’s torque is off.

I’ve gone thru the entire process at px from the design to the finished product, including my 1 of 1 driver shaft
 

 

i have an older hazards black.,.....super stiff but i find fairways......i think its time to upgrade into the new rdx line

 

 

[storm319]

On 5/9/2023 at 2:49 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not at all.

Not sure what storm319 is referring to as far as potential scrap. There is no tolerance measurement for the build to include in San Diego when the HC were made there. So nothing is getting tossed because it’s x grams off spec weight or it’s torque is off.

I’ve gone thru the entire process at px from the design to the finished product, including my 1 of 1 driver shaft
 

 

I could have sworn that the marketing included tighter tolerances (Don Brown addressed the HC topic multiple times on WRX several years ago but I can’t find those threads and there do not appear to be any HC references on the TT site anymore).

A reference to tolerances would imply that there was some type of post-production measurement that determined whether the product was shipped (and “tighter” tolerances has the potential to result in a higher reject rate vs the standard but it is impossible to know without any numbers).

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 minutes ago, storm319 said:

I could have sworn that the marketing included tighter tolerances (Don Brown addressed the HC topic multiple times on WRX several years ago but I can’t find those threads and there do not appear to be any HC references on the TT site anymore).

A reference to tolerances would imply that there was some type of post-production measurement that determined whether the product was shipped (and “tighter” tolerances has the potential to result in a higher reject rate vs the standard but it is impossible to know without any numbers).

I’m a factory that has multiple employees and are making thousands of shafts a day in multiple lines, do you think there’s time to check every shaft for weight, torque, measure cpm?

Ive done factory work in the auto industry and there wasn’t a tolerance check on every part. Inspections were done on a few and if anything was off then the process stopped, machine adjusted, parts rest thru and tested and then back to business when it was working. 
 

There’s going be a tolerance difference between two people making the same shaft. While my 1 of 1 shaft that I rolled performed the same as the one the SD staff rolled do you think there would be some difference?

Of course somebody with tons of experience making cutting material, rolling the shaft that is only going to make 10 shafts a day is going to be able to be more meticulous than a large group mass producing shafts on a daily basis. I watched the people putting shaft labels on px iron shafts they were extremely precise in the placement of the label and getting it wrapped around the shaft.

Its a nice marketing tool to say shafts were handcrafted in San Diego with tight tolerances to specs. People are that up. 

Also not surprised there’s no mention of handcrafted on their website. That went out the door 5 years ago when they moved everything overseas. Then it became small batch because they made some of the new shafts at sd. The original hzrdus lines are being or have been discontinued as well 

[storm319]

On 5/11/2023 at 5:50 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’m a factory that has multiple employees and are making thousands of shafts a day in multiple lines, do you think there’s time to check every shaft for weight, torque, measure cpm?

Ive done factory work in the auto industry and there wasn’t a tolerance check on every part. Inspections were done on a few and if anything was off then the process stopped, machine adjusted, parts rest thru and tested and then back to business when it was working. 
 

There’s going be a tolerance difference between two people making the same shaft. While my 1 of 1 shaft that I rolled performed the same as the one the SD staff rolled do you think there would be some difference?

Of course somebody with tons of experience making cutting material, rolling the shaft that is only going to make 10 shafts a day is going to be able to be more meticulous than a large group mass producing shafts on a daily basis. I watched the people putting shaft labels on px iron shafts they were extremely precise in the placement of the label and getting it wrapped around the shaft.

Its a nice marketing tool to say shafts were handcrafted in San Diego with tight tolerances to specs. People are that up. 

Also not surprised there’s no mention of handcrafted on their website. That went out the door 5 years ago when they moved everything overseas. Then it became small batch because they made some of the new shafts at sd. The original hzrdus lines are being or have been discontinued as well 

I agree on the variability of composite shafts given the nature of how they are made (largely human labor vs steel shafts which are largely machined). However, your response is kind of implying that post-production QC is unnecessary (I would argue that it is more necessary given the production method’s higher margin of error).

Given the structure and daily volume of their handcrafted program in San Diego, they absolutely had the capability to check a few key measurements on every part (to be honest this program sounded like more of an attempt to justify/save some jobs at their San Diego facility than anything). Ultimately, if there are no post production QC measurements then there should be no mention of the word “tolerance”.

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 minutes ago, storm319 said:

I agree on the variability of composite shafts given the nature of how they are made (largely human labor vs steel shafts which are largely machined). However, your response is kind of implying that post-production QC is unnecessary (I would argue that it is more necessary given the production method’s higher margin of error).

Given the structure and daily volume of their handcrafted program in San Diego, they absolutely had the capability to check a few key measurements on every part (to be honest this program sounded like more of an attempt to justify/save some jobs at their San Diego facility than anything). Ultimately, if there are no post production QC measurements then there should be no mention of the word “tolerance”.

I haven’t been there in several years but they weren’t trying to save anyone’s job. They had 5 people working on the graphite shaft side. They were making various shafts there along with whatever r&d work px had going on for shafts. They all had been there for years and were all gainfully employed and as far as I know still very much are, except the entire focus has shifted to r&d and not sure if you know but px does alot more than just golf shafts. They have several hockey producers and lacrosse.

Using the handcrafted was a great marketing plan. Limited amount of shafts, made in America, hand rolled. Like I said people are that up and were spending the money to get that hc labeled shaft.

QC is obviously important but in any production environment they only measure a X number out of every Y pieces made. I don’t know what QC measures they have in place, how money do qc or what their range is for being out of spec. But having been to both PX and UST I doubt the number of shafts that fall out of spec and get thrown away is high.