Thoughts on Handicap

[richk9holes]

So if I'm understanding right, to properly utilize that calculator I would put my last 20 rounds in and it uses the average of the 8 lowest differentials to come up with 14.3 if I only count full courses. 11.3 if I include executive courses and drop some older full course rounds.

 

Just now, gophergutz said:

I expect that calculator works just fine - only thing it can't do is get a PCC adjustment.

You can only get that via GHIN the next day.

There is a tab to input manually -1 to 3

[richk9holes]

If you only put in 8 rounds it bases the index off the average of 2 differentials, I think good enough for an approximation. All of this is a bit subjective. 

A lot of courses have improper ratings/slope posted and lie about yardage. If you play all 20 rounds at that course you are technically unintentionally sandbagging I guess.

[gophergutz]

1 minute ago, richk9holes said:

So if I'm understanding right, to properly utilize that calculator I would put my last 20 rounds in and it uses the average of the 8 lowest differentials to come up with 14.3 if I only count full courses. 11.3 if I include executive courses and drop some older full course rounds.

 

There is a tab to input manually -1 to 3

If one has a GHIN there is no need for the calculator, yes ?

If one does not have a GHIN, then yes, you could input your last 20 into the calculator, and no doubt it would come out correctly BUT, I don't know how you'd go about FINDING each day's PCC as, to my knowledge, the only place you'd be able to find it is in GHIN.

So the result from the calculator could be correct,,,,,, but maybe not,,,,,,,

[richk9holes]

1 minute ago, gophergutz said:

If one has a GHIN there is no need for the calculator, yes ?

If one does not have a GHIN, then yes, you could input your last 20 into the calculator, and no doubt it would come out correctly BUT, I don't know how you'd go about FINDING each day's PCC as, to my knowledge, the only place you'd be able to find it is in GHIN.

So the result from the calculator could be correct,,,,,, but maybe not,,,,,,,

Sales pitch for ghin, I guess?

I think if everyone is serious about growing the game we wouldn't charge for keeping score. 

I will never pay for what amounts to a closer approximation, personally, so I found it a solid resource that gives me a good enough approximation.

[gophergutz]

3 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

If you only put in 8 rounds it bases the index off the average of 2 differentials, I think good enough for an approximation. All of this is a bit subjective. 

A lot of courses have improper ratings/slope posted and lie about yardage. If you play all 20 rounds at that course you are technically unintentionally sandbagging I guess.

2 of 8 is correct.

Well, I don't know about "improper" ratings/slope. Courses are rated and "sloped" every 10 years, sooner if there are changes made to the course that would affect it's #s.

If the ratings are "wrong", you could have a vanity cap just as easily as a sandbagger's cap, no ?

As for the yardages, if the course, as the tees are set for a given day, is 300(?) yards different from the stated yardages on the card, the round is not post-able for handicap purposes.

And no, I have no knowledge of anyone ever checking - except maybe during a formal competition.

[richk9holes]

The executive I played yesterday had a par 4 on the card playing at par 3 distance and a par 4 playing 208y listed at a distance you'd have to play 50y behind the tee box.

The 9 hole I play most often has 2 par 5 that measure under 390y.

I just don't use these scores as countable.

But I see where that in itself adds a world of subjectivity to each person's handicapping experience.

[gophergutz]

3 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Sales pitch for ghin, I guess?

I think if everyone is serious about growing the game we wouldn't charge for keeping score. 

I will never pay for what amounts to a closer approximation, personally, so I found it a solid resource that gives me a good enough approximation.

LOL

I'm still trying to find something worth having that costs nothing.

If one is a casual golfer just out to have fun, plays with/against one's buddies, one can do whatever one wants, no ?

If one wants to progress to more formal events one often needs a "recognized" handicap. My understanding is that some associations around the country, as well as apps (Grint ?) will do handicaps as well but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you'd have to join them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and they charge too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[richk9holes]

6 minutes ago, gophergutz said:

 

As for the yardages, if the course, as the tees are set for a given day, is 300(?) yards different from the stated yardages on the card, the round is not post-able for handicap purposes.

Technically you could use an approximation in this case if red tees have a stated slope/rating for men. In offseason a couple courses around here move most if not all tees forward but it plays about even with the rating/slope of the red tee.

I had to do my best approximation for posting scores in the Virtual tourney here.

[gophergutz]

4 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Technically you could use an approximation in this case if red tees have a stated slope/rating for men. In offseason a couple courses around here move most if not all tees forward but it plays about even with the rating/slope of the red tee.

I had to do my best approximation for posting scores in the Virtual tourney here.

Off-season scores are not post-able for handicap purposes so the yardages are irrelevant.

In the northeast the season generally starts around April 1 and ends Oct 31 (give or take a week or 2).

[richk9holes]

14 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Sales pitch for ghin, I guess?

I think if everyone is serious about growing the game we wouldn't charge for keeping score. 

I will never pay for what amounts to a closer approximation, personally, so I found it a solid resource that gives me a good enough approximation.

Amended to "I will never pay unless required by something I want to do..."

My point is we all pay every time we golf, I guess. So a scoring system seems logical to be complimentary, not a cost barrier.

Scorecards and golf pencils are abundant, they're literally giving them away, and used to be the rain forest. A cloud based digital utility for free is mind-blowing though. 

[richk9holes]

1 minute ago, gophergutz said:

Off-season scores are not post-able for handicap purposes so the yardages are irrelevant.

In the northeast the season generally starts around April 1 and ends Oct 31 (give or take a week or 2).

Unless those are the specific various details that may vary according to the subjective rules of what we're discussing.

You seem to be making a lot of assertions.

[richk9holes]

December was 65° and sunny this year in the NE keeping in mind. I'm sure nobody under any system anywhere kept posting scores.

[Javs]

There isn’t an off season in central Texas.

[richk9holes]

Subjective means each person approaches differently and will have slightly different experience. 

For me, I found virtual tourney on MGS in March. Needed a course handicap, pulled my old scorecards and figured it out, using that calculator I posted.

That was my personal use case of needing an index number, in an honor system setting but wanting to be as accurate as I could.

 

[gophergutz]

7 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Unless those are the specific various details that may vary according to the subjective rules of what we're discussing.

You seem to be making a lot of assertions.

I'm giving you the World Handicap System's rules and requirements for the U.S..

I'm not making stuff up.

5 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

December was 65° and sunny this year in the NE keeping in mind. I'm sure nobody under any system anywhere kept posting scores.

The weather doesn't matter; only the calendar does.

There are many states in the U.S. that have a 12 month posting season. Think "southern tier", Florida is 12 months of course. NJ is not.

[gophergutz]

1 minute ago, richk9holes said:

Subjective means each person approaches differently and will have slightly different experience. 

For me, I found virtual tourney on MGS in March. Needed a course handicap, pulled my old scorecards and figured it out, using that calculator I posted.

That was my personal use case of needing an index number, in an honor system setting but wanting to be as accurate as I could.

 

No worries. MGS can do as it pleases for their own tourneys.

[richk9holes]

[Javs]

1 minute ago, gophergutz said:

I'm giving you the World Handicap System's rules and requirements for the U.S..

I'm not making stuff up.

The weather doesn't matter; only the calendar does.

There are many states in the U.S. that have a 12 month posting season. Think "southern tier", Florida is 12 months of course. NJ is not.

Like I said we are 12 months in Central Texas. Heck if you don’t post people will be asking….   

[richk9holes]

@gophergutz and I'm referencing the photo I already shared highlighted at the top. 

[Javs]

A lot of lively debate tonight, ha ha

[richk9holes]

So world handicap system is what you use and that's awesome. I love that you love it.

Other people have index numbers based on a different system. And for different purposes of varying seriousness.

Subjective.

[richk9holes]

4 minutes ago, gophergutz said:

No worries. MGS can do as it pleases for their own tourneys.

Only them? You mean to say everyone can do as they please, right?

See where I'm coming at you from, now?

[Javs]

8 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

So world handicap system is what you use and that's awesome. I love that you love it.

Other people have index numbers based on a different system. And for different purposes of varying seriousness.

Subjective.

We use the USGA GHIN through the Texas Golf Association. The scores and handicaps are monitored by our club and the state association. Appears everyone is answering based upon their handicap system and region. That probably explains a lot of the various answers and views. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Javs

[funkyjudge]

6 hours ago, gophergutz said:

 

 

Of course, we all know that absolutely NOBODY shoots 5 over par(or 8 over or 3 under) every round that they play. Even the best tour professionals shoot a wide range of scores over the course of a month or year …. or even over a four-day tournament.

[richk9holes]

18 minutes ago, Javs said:

We use the USGA GHIN through the Texas Golf Association. Appears everyone is answering based upon their handicap system and region. That probably explains a lot of the various answers and views. 

I think the chart checks out more the more I look at it, to get back to OP.

You have to look at it backwards kinda, start at the 20 handicap and think how long it took you to shoot the number in question. If it's been 3+ years and you haven't shot 87 chances are you are still a 20 and it feels about right 1100 years or longer than your lifespan to break 80.

You have to consider the handicap constantly in flux. The moment you shoot the low number it goes in your differentials meaning you aren't a 20 anymore.

[Javs]

9 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

I think the chart checks out more the more I look at it, to get back to OP.

You have to look at it backwards kinda, start at the 20 handicap and think how long it took you to shoot the number in question. If it's been 3+ years and you haven't shot 87 chances are you are still a 20 and it feels about right 1100 years or longer than your lifespan to break 80.

You have to consider the handicap constantly in flux. The moment to shoot the low number it goes in your differential meaning you aren't a 20 anymore.

Ha ha I wasn’t even speaking about the chart anymore. I was just commenting on the lively debate on the handicap system in general. I found much of it funny. I play and post as required by our club and system. It’s all pretty simple to me.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Javs

[richk9holes]

I'm still on about the chart.

So if in any category you shoot the 6 month number inside 6 months you won't be in that category any more.

If years pass and you don't shoot the next number your index will go up and you won't be in that category anymore.

It's making more sense.

[richk9holes]

Where it gets wonky is with course ratings, but the chart is applicable for people who play a majority of their golf at a home course and have their handicap index based off that same course.

Every layer of discrepancy from that adds a layer of stink much like a data onion.

[Javs]

10 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Where it gets wonky is with course ratings, but the chart is applicable for people who play a majority of their golf at a home course and have their handicap index based off that same course.

Every layer of discrepancy from that adds a layer of stink much like a data onion.

I need a drink! Ha ha

Edited May 14, 2023 by Javs

[gophergutz]

36 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Only them? You mean to say everyone can do as they please, right?

See where I'm coming at you from, now?

I see you're just trying to start an(other) argument. And for what ?

You re-posted that pic/description and said nothing. So what was your point ?

The World Handicap System is the de facto standard around the WORLD.  You want to do something different ? Knock yourself out. Please.

It's not like there aren't plenty of game organizers who make up their own games (quotas/points/ridiculous swings in "handicaps" for a single good round, and all sorts of other ways, without using the WHS,,,,,,,, and think they know better than the world wide golf organizations who have crunched literally tens of MILLIONS (or more) of rounds to come up with a workable way to make a fair game.

But you, and others who've "played a lot" think you know better. Fat chance. So go ahead and play with yourselves any way you want.

I'm giving you the official WHS as it's used in the USA.

You want to make your own ? Fine. Enjoy yourself.