Monte Scheinblum- No Turn Cast - Does it make sense?

[Wildthing]

I've seen various forums promoting NTC videos by Monte Scheinblum but does it make sense and what evidence is being used to check its integrity?

On the HackMotion website it says the following:

https://hackmotion.com/no-turn-cast-monte-scheinblum/

The sequence of No Turn Cast:

1. Hinge the wrists during backswing

At the the top of the backswing, put the club’s center of the mass behind the hands 

2. Have the INTENT to release club (“cast”) to 8 o’clock (shaft parallel before impact)
As a conscious move when starting the downswing, release wrist hinge (move towards ulnar deviation) and the body will react automatically 
The move should be done while shifting from the 9 o’clock to 8 o’clock position (shaft parallel before impact) and without tilting your shoulders (see the illustration).

 

*Reasoning
Ulnar deviation (unhinging) is a coupled motion with flexion (bowing). 

Therefore, by having ulnar deviation. in the wrist, it becomes easier for the lead wrist to move towards flexion.
A move towards lead wrist flexion allows to square the clubface earlier, so that you don’t t have to do it at the last moment. You do not need to manipulate the club before impact and you can rotate freely.

3. Rotate the body
Once the clubface is in a good position, you are able to gain speed by rotating the body. 
Learn more about early squaring of the clubface HERE.

---------------------------

I have a few issues concerning the logic involved in casting the club early (ie. lead wrist ulnar deviation direction).

 

1.  It will tend to increase the lag angle between the lead arm and club shaft and therefore decrease the 'Moment Arm' that can be used to release the club later in the downswing (ie. less clubhead speed if the forces across the club are left unchanged). 

The physics is explained in this video by Dr Sasho Mackenzie

https://vimeo.com/158419250

2. The COM of the club is further away from the golfer , therefore increasing it's MOI (moment of inertia) about the upper body pivot. Basically making it more difficult to rotate the club about the upper body pivot axis. 

The other isssue I have is this statement below (is it factually correct?).

"A move towards lead wrist flexion allows to square the clubface earlier"

Is this the reverse motorcycle move that is being promoted in the golfing world, where it is claimed virtually all tour pros do to some extent? That there is 3D evidence that shows it is happening for a very high sample number of pros?

So the logic of NTC is that you must consciously try and ulnar deviate your lead wrist to make it easier to flex/bow your lead wrist and therefore square the clubface early? 

If you retain a bowed wrist in the late downswing, say from club parallel to a few feet from impact , the shaft will be approaching from a more inside path  (point D in the image below) and the clubface will be more open to the ball target line . Therefore , the  golfer is going to have to somehow rotate that clubface even more to square it before impact at point C.

 

 

So what would be the point of performing a lead wrist cast and bowing action in the early downswing if the golfer ends up having to perform some extra clubface squaring biomechanical movement?

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Another confusing aspect of Monte's NTC claims is in this instagram video below:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CsEXKFotUlY/

He claims a 'Horizontal Hinge Release' from P6.5 -P7  but that doesn't make sense when one inspects the Jon Sinclair's graphs of  65 worlds best Tour Pros wrist movements. 

P6.5 is approximately where I've got the arrows pointed on the (blue) 'mean' graphs of the tour pros lead/trail wrist extension/flexion movements.

According to the graph above, the lead wrist moves in the extension direction (while still in flexion) by about 3-5 degrees from P6.5-P7.0   (ie. club shaft about 45 degrees angled to ground at P6.5 while impact is P7.0). If you tried doing this 3-4 degree lead wrist extension movement using a driver, the clubhead would only move about 4 inches . Can one really generate a lot of extra clubhead speed in such a short distance over a miniscule period of time by allowing some horizontal hinge release?

Also , one can see that the trail wrist does not match the lead wrist movements and is actually moving in the flexion direction (while still extended)  by about 17 degrees . This is because the movements of the wrists can be fairly complicated and the lead hand grip may be orthogonal to the trail hand grip (depending on how each golfer grips the club). Therefore ulnar deviation of the lead wrist might cause the trail wrist to move in the flexion direction. 

It may be worthwhile for more golf research that looks a bit deeper into the movement of the wrists from P4-P7.2 for tour pro golfers.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Wildthing

[Goober]

I would say that Monte is a wonderful communicator and teacher. And for amateurs like me, he is one we need to listen to. I’ve researched just the comments from other amateurs on the NTC drill and it has done wonders for their games. It’s an exaggeration for sure. But for many of us. We need this drill. Especially ones who have grooved incorrect motions. There is a huge divide in our games versus the tour pro game. And Monte seems to work very well with all skill levels. But I think his main expertise in the world of golf teaching is helping amateurs. 
 

it’s like anything else. Either people agree or disagree with the communicator. But what I’ve read he is on the side where more agree than disagree 

[cksurfdude]

@Wildthing I've read through your posts with interest .. and sincerely tried to follow along .. but wow you're looking at the golf swing at literally a whole nuthah level ...

I think your questions are valid - eg what reliable third party is verifying the methodology - but as an average recreational golfer I agree with what @Goober said above.

Fwiw I've attended two of Monte's clinics and watched his NTC video and can honestly say he *is* helping me to hit the ball better

[russtopherb]

Yes it makes a lot of sense and it works. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

If it makes you feel better, iacas on Twitter  author of “lowest score wins) says something similar  instead of talking the trail wtrist, he says you need to Palmer flex your lead wrist  basically the motorcycle move, in transition. It is the same move as NTC with different wording. Basically your wrists need to move that way to square the face. If they don’t you either have to be super flat at the top and rotate like dj, or you push slice everything. I have most of Monte’s videos  I just don’t stick with them enough. His stuff works

 

[cnosil]

On 5/21/2023 at 8:13 AM, Wildthing said:

I've seen various forums promoting NTC videos by Monte Scheinblum but does it make sense and what evidence is being used to check its integrity?

I think you are looking at this incorrectly.  The question that should be asked is does the drill help golfers swing better and have a closer match up to the numbers you are assessing.  Drills are often exaggerations that can result in making a more mechanically sound swing.  To do the analysis you want, you would need to capture the swing dynamics of someone that has the problem the drill is trying to fix and then measure the swing after performing the drill to see if the movement pattern aligns with what you want to see.     

[RickyBobby_PR]

Going to use a thread from the OP that shows exactly what NTC teaches. The thread with the vidoe was focused on what squares the clubface and it’s a great video because they also show the amount the trail arm extends and how much change in wrist set.

The video that AMG did and eventually took down that talked about shallowing the club by extending the trail arm and the arms lowering along with videos by Brian manzella and others on the subject showed the same thing.

Cast A is a move most of the pros make including DJ with his extreme wrist flexion.

What the drill does as do many drills in golf is exaggerate the movement. No good golfer is going to unload the trail arm the amount that is done in the cast a drill from ntc they do make that movement. 
 

Monte has a drill for lead arm rotation in his efficient swing series. It has the golfer point the club perpendicular to the ground at lead arm parallel. He says you will never be in this position but you have to exaggerate it to learn how to do it.
 

Around the 9 mark Shaun talks about the amount of body rotation each golfer has and mentions the number of degrees in change of trail arm and wrist set.

 

[MacTourney]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:55 AM, Wildthing said:

 It may be worthwhile for more golf research that looks a bit deeper into the movement of the wrists from P4-P7.2 for tour pro golfers.

It can be studied until the cows come home and it will always reduce to garbage in, garbage out, no more research please.    The hands and wrists do not want to be told what to do when, they are smarter than we are, please allow them to be. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by MacTourney

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 minutes ago, MacTourney said:

It can be studied until the cows come home and it will always reduce to garbage in, garbage out, no more research please.    The hands and wrists do not want to be told what to do when, they are smarter than we are, please allow them to be. 

Agree there’s enough gears video and slow motion swings out there that show what the wrists do. They trail wrist is moving from flexion to extension and the lead wrist from flexion to extension as the club approaches impact and they keep moving that way post impact.

Perfect example with John Rahm

https://twitter.com/mfinneygolf/status/1656495958446809088/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1656495958446809088&currentTweetUser=mfinneygolf

[vandyland]

Long post, please ignore....

Personally, I have bought into the no turn cast and while I can't say that it has turned me into a tour level golfer (nothing would), it has given me a roadmap for a fairly simple swing that makes sense to me. My tendency is to spin out from the top and hold lag coming into the ball which has never produced good results for me. The best results I got prior to monte was using my trail shoulder dipping as a way to slow down my spin out from the top but that leads to (for me) massive blocks and fat shots at times. 

As someone who needed to stop looking around at YouTube golf tips and needed a framework to follow, it has been great. I hit balls into a net 7 days a week because it is fun and relaxing, not because I think that is the best way to get better. Having Monte's NTC, I can at least be working on some motor patterns whilst I hit balls into the net rather than just mindlessly destroying my joints and ingraining a bad swing. I am hitting more and more flushed easy shots these days which tells me I am on the right path. I am hitting a soft draw for the first time in my life as well because I am releasing the club and coming from the inside and slightly closed to path. It's truly beautiful some days. And when it is going badly, I can diagnose the issue myself pretty quickly because it is usually one of 3 things (1) I am spinning out from the top again [Fix is staying closed longer at the top of the backswing] (2) I am setting my wrists too late and thus "downcocking" on Cast A which is the OPPOSITE of what you are meant to be doing there [Fix is setting wrists early and generally having them set around shaft parallel] (3) I am not re-centering/flexing my knee in transition resulting in thin flippy shots or fat shots

***One big caveat to all this, and I didn't believe it at the time, is that the NTC motor pattern can take MONTHS to learn. And in my case I am still learning it. I started messing around with NTC almost a year ago (July of 2022) and I am still trying to blend the transition knee flex with the CAST A. Will probably continue to enjoy working on it for some time. I took a video lesson with Monte which was helpful and am attending one of his clinics so I am fully in the cult. 

[Kenny B]

Monte just qualified for the US Senior Open Championship next month.

[vandyland]

Just now, Kenny B said:

Monte just qualified for the US Senior Open Championship next month.

Yes, pumped for him but it also bumped my clinic to July which I now may not be able to make. So a good news/bad news (for me) situation. I am still going to try to make it but the wife is not excited about the change. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Monte just qualified for the US Senior Open Championship next month.

Don’t tell anyone but he works with and has worked multiple pro golfers. He may know a thing or two about what pros do. Also don’t tell anyone he has gears and that Chris Como invited him to give a presentation at the pga show this year

[Parshooter36]

I am 100% trying this when I get home tonight.  The before video looks very similar to the move I am fighting.  Thanks for sharing!

[RickyBobby_PR]

32 minutes ago, Parshooter36 said:

I am 100% trying this when I get home tonight.  The before video looks very similar to the move I am fighting.  Thanks for sharing!

Keep in mind the assumption of cast a is that you are in a good spot in the backswing. If not this move will likely get one stuck in transition 

 

[Wildthing]

This relates to opinion about lead wrist moving in the extension direction approaching and through impact:

Look at the bottom graph presented by Dr Phil Cheetham for a large sample number of golf pros captured on the AMM 3D database.

 

 

1.If you look at the green graph it shows the lead wrist velocity in the extension direction at impact is approximately 350 degrees per second.

2. If we assume average pro golfers have driver clubhead speeds of 110 mph at impact, which then reduces approximately by 1/3 post impact to 73 mph.  

3. 73 mph is 1285 inches per second.

4. Let's assume the clubhead moved at 1285 inches/sec  for 10 inches post impact , how much time will that take?  
1285 inches is equivalent to 1 second
10 inches is equivalent to 10/1285 = .008 secs approximately

5. Next assumption is that clubhead impact with ball will have no effect on the lead wrist extension velocity of 350 degrees per second  during this .008 secs.

Question:  How many degrees will the lead wrist extend in .008 secs?

Answer:  350 x .008 = 2.8 degrees

Therefore, for a clubhead moving at 73 mph post impact , the lead wrist will only extend 2.8 degrees approximately over a clubhead travel distance of 10 inches.

So yes, the lead wrist is moving in the extension direction, but it's a small amount for clubhead moving 12 inches before and after impact (maybe 9 or 10 degrees in total).

Plus

If you have a strong lead hand grip approaching impact  (many golf pros have a moderately strong grip) , any extension will tend to increase the angle between the lead arm and club shaft.

Look at Milo Lines lead wrist as he approaches impact .

 

Because he has a strong grip, the back of his wrist is facing the ball-target line rather than being square to it.  What do you think would happen if his lead wrist passively moved in the extension direction?  It doesn't seem to be optimising an increase in clubhead speed in the clubhead path direction (ie. horizontal hinge release).

Edited May 25, 2023 by Wildthing
spelling error

[Wildthing]

There was mention of John Rahm lead wrist extension approaching impact.

Here is a TPI graph of his wrist movements.

 

Green graph (although difficult to see but is labelled)  shows lead wrist flexion/extension. The top half of the graph is 'flexion'  while the bottom half is 'extension'. 

Here is an explanation of the lead wrist flexion/extension graph.

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The green graph represents his lead wrist flexion-extension graph. The black vertical line labelled "top" represents the end-backswing position and the vertical black line labelled "imp" represents impact.

Note that Jon Rahm's lead wrist is bowed at his end-backswing position. Then, note that his degree of lead wrist bowing actually decreases slightly during the early downswing before increasing again in the later downswing to reach a peak degree of lead wrist bowing just before impact. Then, his lead wrist bowing becomes fractionally less bowed by impact. Most importantly, note that Jon Rahm still has a significantly bowed lead wrist in his early followthrough (see red arrow) and he does not rapidly-and-massively move his lead wrist in the direction of "lead wrist extending" during his early followthrough (roughly between P7 and P7.2). In fact, note that his bowed lead wrist only starts moving rapidly in the direction of "lead wrist extending" after the blue arrow. I don't know his precise P position at the exact point of the blue arrow, but I suspect that it is after P7.4. By keeping his lead wrist bowed between P7 => P7.4, Jon Rahm is biomechanically able to perform a superb DH-hand release action through impact.

----------------------------------

A  DH-hand release action is shorthand for 'Drive-Hold Hand Release Action'  and basically means that John Rahm is not rapidly extending his lead wrist through impact but principally keeping the clubface square to the club path for a very brief period before and after impact . 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

There was mention of John Rahm lead wrist extension approaching impact.

Here is a TPI graph of his wrist movements.

 

Green graph (although difficult to see but is labelled)  shows lead wrist flexion/extension. The top half of the graph is 'flexion'  while the bottom half is 'extension'. 

Here is an explanation of the lead wrist flexion/extension graph.

------------------------------------

The green graph represents his lead wrist flexion-extension graph. The black vertical line labelled "top" represents the end-backswing position and the vertical black line labelled "imp" represents impact.

Note that Jon Rahm's lead wrist is bowed at his end-backswing position. Then, note that his degree of lead wrist bowing actually decreases slightly during the early downswing before increasing again in the later downswing to reach a peak degree of lead wrist bowing just before impact. Then, his lead wrist bowing becomes fractionally less bowed by impact. Most importantly, note that Jon Rahm still has a significantly bowed lead wrist in his early followthrough (see red arrow) and he does not rapidly-and-massively move his lead wrist in the direction of "lead wrist extending" during his early followthrough (roughly between P7 and P7.2). In fact, note that his bowed lead wrist only starts moving rapidly in the direction of "lead wrist extending" after the blue arrow. I don't know his precise P position at the exact point of the blue arrow, but I suspect that it is after P7.4. By keeping his lead wrist bowed between P7 => P7.4, Jon Rahm is biomechanically able to perform a superb DH-hand release action through impact.

----------------------------------

A  DH-hand release action is shorthand for 'Drive-Hold Hand Release Action'  and basically means that John Rahm is not rapidly extending his lead wrist through impact but principally keeping the clubface square to the club path for a very brief period before and after impact . 

Nobody said rapidly extending. The comment was that it moves from flexion to extension. So what you posted marches exactly what was stated, you inferred the rapid part to try and make some point to disprove the statement

[Goober]

I would ask the OP what swing theorist or teacher does he believe in ? And why ? If Monte seems to not be your liking 

[Parshooter36]

I got called back into work last night, so I didn't have much time to work on this.  It definitely has some promise as I love the consistant club path it was producing through the ball, I just struggled hitting them very fat.  The ones I did hit well produced a nice draw with a bit more ball speed than I am use to seeing.  

[Wildthing]

11 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nobody said rapidly extending. The comment was that it moves from flexion to extension. So what you posted marches exactly what was stated, you inferred the rapid part to try and make some point to disprove the statement

Monte Scheinblum, Tyler Ferrell,  Erik Barzeski (iacas)  all regard Jon Sinclair as the leading expert on 3D data . In fact most of their concepts (including NTC and motorcycle move) are based on Jon Sinclair's database which contains the largest collection of PGA pro 3D data in the world (Jon Sinclair actually teaches other PGA teachers with regards 3D data). 

Here is a you tube video with Jon Sinclair as guest speaker and check out what he says from 15:00 - 15:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n_iEwySz3M&t=894s

He says the following:

"around the club about 30 degrees before impact , it's starting to go rapidly towards extension"

So if he says the above , I have assumed Monte, Tyler , Erik will probably be in agreement . I could be wrong, but the way Monte mentions horizontal release as a source of clubhead speed suggests rapid lead wrist movement in the flexion to extension direction.

Further, Jon Sinclair seems to be advocating a rapid extension/roll of the wrists through impact when you check out this other video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6AzuJrZBYM

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

7 hours ago, Goober said:

I would ask the OP what swing theorist or teacher does he believe in ? And why ? If Monte seems to not be your liking 

From a pure teaching perspective , I personally use some of Shawn Clement teaching philosophies that have been based on Dr Gabriele Wulf's research on 'Motor Learning Skills'.  Strangely enough , many aspects of SC's instruction (on you-tube videos 8-10 years ago) now seem to have been used by Dr Kwon.

From a golf biomechanical theory perspective which also includes detailed anatomical descriptions- Dr Jeff Mann has evolved and changed several of his original theories based on TGM methodology (but only when he has 'cast iron' evidence that disproves his original theories as flawed).

From a golf biomechanics perspective using 'kinetic/kinematic' evidence (but lacks anatomical detail) :  Dr Phil Cheetham, Dr Greg Rose, Dr Sasho Mackenzie, Dr Kwon and Dave Tutelman  (and many other golf scientists who have published research papers).

I do not dislike Monte as a teacher but I am questioning whether some of his claims make sense.

1. Casting early to get the club in position so that the body reacts correctly. 

2.  Motorcycle move to close the clubface.

3.  Vertical and horizontal hinge release as a main source of clubhead speed.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Do you think these golfer's wrists are extending/rolling through impact ?  Jon Sinclair thinks there is a rapid extension through impact of about 20 degrees from P7-P7.5 and he claims that golfers are not holding the wrists firm through impact.

 

I suspect Jon Sinclair is correct !  The golfers are not firming up their wrists or 'handle dragging' through impact but they could be timing the angular velocity of their lead arm to approximately match that of the club from P6.8-P7.2 .  If they are actually doing the latter,  'how'  they are able to do it is still a mystery, although Dr Grober  (another golf scientist) has his own theories and that involves actions by the trail hand.

Jon Sinclair's AMM3D system only works at 400-500 Hz and is unable to measure in detail what is happening to the wrists from P6.8-P7.2  , therefore his interpretation of what the wrists are doing just before and after impact might be incorrect.  Obviously , if proven wrong,  that could have consequences regarding any golf instruction teaching an extending/rolling hand release action through impact.

I have no issues with Jon Sinclair/Monte/Tyler Ferrell/ Erik Barzeski  teaching wrist actions that may reflect their own interpretation of the 3D data at their disposal ,but they should be more open-minded to other people's interpretations too.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Wildthing

[Goober]

Im going to try and explain how my teacher Mr.Martin Chuck would address this. I think it is very similar to Monte's teachings as well. But not an expert, so forgive my ignorance if needed. The motorcycle cast move in transition is basically creating impact earlier than later. Its a conscious move that is like setting a arrow in a pull before shooting.  The wide is easier to maintain (cast) than a lag style timing based transition. All I have to focus on is taking this early impact setting all the way to the finish. But using my pivot to accentuate it. Versus all hands and arms. Its a classic Tommy Fleetwood style of follow thru as well. Or i would say a TGM flying wedge or creating a slice of pizza in the TST community terms. Its very effective, easy to maintain.  The hands feel like they never turn over.  It is as close to a passive style release that ive ever experienced before.  

Personally this is what i believe Broom Force per Monte S is also referring too.  Maybe it isnt the Hoganesque lag style motion that everyone loves. But for repeatability in the amateur game it is spot on. I do appreciate your posts WildThing. And hope i explained this as best as possible.

[Goober]

This really the way that amateurs need to swing a club my friend. And my teacher as well loves this one. Infact I believe a perfect training aid to help with this is the Tour Striker Planemate or the TST pro.  You might disagree with all of this. Which is fine. But you cant deny that this is a very effective repeatable way of golfing. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

Im going to try and explain how my teacher Mr.Martin Chuck would address this.

Your statements aren't going to answer the OPs question.   He wants the instructors statements/claims to match up with the detailed biomechanical measurements that are captured on systems like Gears.   It has nothing to do with the exaggerations that an instructor has a student do or even the drills themselves.   The OP doesn't believe that they match up and wants the instructors to explain the biomechanics. 

[Goober]

Well … I’m in the boat where I pay an instructor to decipher all the lingo into easy to do drills for me. The rest is out of my pay grade 

[cnosil]

27 minutes ago, Goober said:

Well … I’m in the boat where I pay an instructor to decipher all the lingo into easy to do drills for me. The rest is out of my pay grade 

As are most of us.  Some want more detail and correlation and why based on the quoted statement you nor I can answer the OPs questions. 

[Wildthing]

This is Jon  Sinclair's email reply to me  and I have highlighted and underlined a few statements. 

Unless I've misinterpreted, he seems to be agreeing with what Dr Jeff Mann theorised , that palmar flexion closes the clubface when the lead wrist is in radial deviation but then opens it when moving in the ulnar deviation direction approaching impact.

---------------------------------------------------------

"The wrist are very complexed. You have to look at both to really determine how the club is being manipulated.

First of all, a position in and of itself neither opens or closes the club face. So these players having flexed lead wrist does not mean they have closed the club. The grip has a lot to do with what is happening as well.

As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension. I am talking about world class players here. After club transition flexed players will tend to move toward extension a bit before going hard back to flexion.

I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started. This is a tricky measurement though. AMM does not do the shoulder girdles so that can alter it some.

Moving toward flexion closes the club face at the top but then acts and opens it at impact. Pronation/Supination takes the in and out of plane until you get more ulnar deviation then lead supination/ trail pronation closes it.

I would need to do a complete study but I would doubt highly that there is less or more forearm movement in a flexed wrist over a extended one. If you are talking about higher or lower ROC I would also say that is a myth. It is what people want to believe. It fits nicely with a narrative."

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Edited May 27, 2023 by Wildthing