No such thing as a ‘Bad Student’

[Goober]

There has always been a debate in sports that the teacher is just bad. Or the student himself is a bad student 

I don’t agree with that. I think golf teachers have a style and method they believe in. And they have many students who really get it. Because a student or two doesn’t get it doesn’t make their ideology not valid.

I also disagree that people are called ‘bad students’. It comes down to just not having the physical capacity to properly perform a set of movements. Or are missing the athletic ability to perform said function. And may just lack the time to master a change in their motor skills. Some have such an ingrained incorrect motor skill that it would take many years to alter it. Life outside of sports may never allow the change to happen as well. 
 

So what are your thoughts ? I don’t think there ever is a bad student. Just outside interferences. Or even a lack of athletic ability will never make changes happen

[tony@CIC]

My definition of a 'bad student' is one who doesn't practice what was taught. Seems like a waste of time for an instructor to continue teaching when the student  doesn't apply themselves. 

[DaveP043]

44 minutes ago, Goober said:

So what are your thoughts ? I don’t think there ever is a bad student. Just outside interferences. Or even a lack of athletic ability will never make changes happen

To me, a "bad student" is one who doesn't put in the work necessary to make a change.  Change isn't easy, you can't make any significant change without significant effort.  An even worse student blames the teacher for the lack of results, when the true cause for the results is the effort of the student.  Another type of "bad student" refuses to practice anything that doesn't feel "right".  Change feels wrong, because its not what the student is accustomed to.  If it feels comfortable, its not a change, and without change there is no improvement.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

I don’t agree with that. I think golf teachers have a style and method they believe in. And they have many students who really get it. Because a student or two doesn’t get it doesn’t make their ideology not valid.

There are bad teachers in golf, in any sort and in the classroom.

Its ok for the teacher to have their style and approach to the swing, it’s ok that they teach a single swing no matter what, some students will get it and those who can’t will either continue to try or move on.

But a teacher who doesn’t care about the success of their student or trying to help their student is a bad teacher. A teacher who gives the student one piece of feedback then just watches them hit balls the rest of the less is a bad teacher. A teacher who isn’t honest with their student and just keeps taking their money is a bad teacher. 

1 hour ago, Goober said:

also disagree that people are called ‘bad students’. It comes down to just not having the physical capacity to properly perform a set of movements. Or are missing the athletic ability to perform said function. And may just lack the time to master a change in their motor skills. Some have such an ingrained incorrect motor skill that it would take many years to alter it. Life outside of sports may never allow the change to happen as well. 

Agree that students may lack some physical capacity to perform certain movements doesnt make them a bad student, but a good teacher would work around that. 
 

Agree there are some that are very unaesthetic and will probably never be good at golf and that doesn’t make them a bad student. Many don’t have the time to practice that is required to fix a movement pattern, some don’t have the patience to do it, some lack both, agree that doesn’t make them a bad student.

But like with teachers there are bad students in everything that involves learning.

A student who acts like they know more than the person they are seeking help from is a bad student. The student who doesn’t practice at all or very little and continues to go for lessons and doesn’t improve and acts like it’s not their fault is a bad student. Just some examples

So overall I disagree with you on this 

[TR1PTIK]

Don't think there's much to add here. I agree with the rest, there are indeed bad students, and yes as well to the existence of bad teachers.

[Goober]

I have to agree slightly with all the comments. But I still believe teachers found a technique that they want to share with the world. And some people get it , some don’t.

But for students. I really believe off course responsibilities and even athleticism. And even throw in how badly ingrained the swing fault(s) are. Has a huge influence on their progress. I don’t think anyone takes a lessons without the intent of trying to improve at this devilishly hard game. The effort is there just to want to improve. But many mitigated circumstances hinder improvement. So ..no … not bad students. Just bad makeup’s and scenarios 

[DaveP043]

 

3 hours ago, Goober said:

But I still believe teachers found a technique that they want to share with the world. And some people get it , some don’t.

There are poor teachers, and there are teachers whose instructional style doesn't mesh with the students learning style.  Not all of the blame for failure to improve falls on the student in every case.

3 hours ago, Goober said:

But many mitigated circumstances hinder improvement. So ..no … not bad students. Just bad makeup’s and scenarios 

Nah, if I were to take instructions and not practice, no matter what my reason for not practicing, I'd be a poor student.  It might be for things outside of my control, but its still on me.  If I reject good instruction because it feels weird, I'm a bad student.  I've known both kinds of golfers, they really are bad students.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, Goober said:

I have to agree slightly with all the comments. But I still believe teachers found a technique that they want to share with the world. And some people get it , some don’t.

But for students. I really believe off course responsibilities and even athleticism. And even throw in how badly ingrained the swing fault(s) are. Has a huge influence on their progress. I don’t think anyone takes a lessons without the intent of trying to improve at this devilishly hard game. The effort is there just to want to improve. But many mitigated circumstances hinder improvement. So ..no … not bad students. Just bad makeup’s and scenarios 

Everyone agrees that that things don’t make bad teachers or bad students, it overlooks that there are bad teachers. They are the ones who take no interest in their students success. Not communicating after a lesson, not communicating at all during a lessons. There are enough stories around the internet of teachers like this to show there are bad teachers.

Same for students, those who don’t practice at all after a lesson and expect to get better because they keep taking lessons, the ones who do the above and then blame the teacher. The ones who try what the teacher said for a few shots at the range and expect instant improvement and when it doesn’t happen they try to find something else and continue down that rabbit hole then go for another lesson and they get the same feedback from the teacher.

 

[PaulWilson]

On 5/25/2023 at 2:33 PM, Goober said:

There has always been a debate in sports that the teacher is just bad. Or the student himself is a bad student 

I don’t agree with that. I think golf teachers have a style and method they believe in. And they have many students who really get it. Because a student or two doesn’t get it doesn’t make their ideology not valid.

I also disagree that people are called ‘bad students’. It comes down to just not having the physical capacity to properly perform a set of movements. Or are missing the athletic ability to perform said function. And may just lack the time to master a change in their motor skills. Some have such an ingrained incorrect motor skill that it would take many years to alter it. Life outside of sports may never allow the change to happen as well. 
 

So what are your thoughts ? I don’t think there ever is a bad student. Just outside interferences. Or even a lack of athletic ability will never make changes happen

I think it's the same as in a classroom. There is a teacher with his style, methods, and approach, and there is a student with their understanding abilities, motivation, etc. And if something between them doesn't work, the blame can't be on just one person. They can just not understand each other, and it doesn't make someone bad. But if the student doesn't dedicate enough effort, then it's different. Or if the teacher is not doing enough - the same. I'm a student and can say that sometimes, even if the professor does the maximum for the student, it can still be hard to understand something. For me, it's writing, I always face challenges, and that's why I use https://edubirdie.com/write-my-essay-for-me pretty often because I can finish writing without help. I asked for advice and practiced a lot, but I still needed additional help. But I do my best, so now it's up to me to improve. The same in gold. Sometimes, a lot of effort is needed, even if you are a good student and have a good teacher.

Edited June 25, 2023 by PaulWilson

[Goober]

Good reply Mr Wilson. For me I think back to my classroom days in college. Was a math major, and for me proper teaching was having the right students in the correct class. For example, you can’t tackle a trig class if you still struggle with algebra. And the good professors realized this. so they would create a pre entry exam for your first days of the semester. If you did poorly on the entry exam they would recommend remedial follow up before you can even attempt one day of trig. 
 

I think maybe golf teachings should be like this as well. Many are pursuing teachers that focus on slotting or pivoting etc. but if a students ‘basics’ aren’t in line. Then how in the world can a student tackle slotting or a major pivot driven swing? I feel that a competent teacher should recognize this immediately. And a diligent student needs to take it upon themselves to fix this first. But it seems like what I read on YouTube comments and forums is students ready to tackle the whole enchilada without the basics in place. Maybe that is where the big divide is? Teachers putting out high tech moves for students to try. But also not looking at why students aren’t progressing due to the basics out of wack. And if those are bad their progression will be minimal to none. Or even worse  

Edited June 20, 2023 by Goober

[RickyBobby_PR]

17 minutes ago, Goober said:

I think maybe golf teachings should be like this as well. Many are pursuing teachers that focus on slotting or pivoting etc. but if a students ‘basics’ aren’t in line. Then how in the world can a student tackle slotting or a major pivot driven swing? I feel that a competent teacher should recognize this immediately.

Yes a competent teacher will recognize this. There also has to be a dialogue between student and instructor on what the students goals are. Most amateurs don’t have time to practice or choose not to and just want to “play better or more consistent” A good instructor is going to understand this and will see what the biggest things that are impacting the golfers swing and give a fox for that which will help them play better. Someone who has time to practice and will practice the same good instructor is going to approach that differently and break things down into different things to work on and will not move on til the first item is addressed.

22 minutes ago, Goober said:

But it seems like what I read on YouTube comments and forums is students ready to tackle the whole enchilada without the basics in place. Maybe that is where the big divide is? Teachers putting out high tech moves for students to try. But also not looking at why students aren’t progressing due to the basics out of wack. And if those are bad their progression will be minimal to none. Or even worse

YouTube instruction isn’t meant for individuals. They are addressing general issues. Also most of the golfers watching/commenting are looking for the quick fix. There really isn’t a quick fix in golf and golf in unlike any other sport in terms of difficulty. It’s a game of opposites and what feels natural to people are bad things in the swing. 
 

Not sure what you mean by high tech moves, I’m guessing you are referring to technical moves. Most of the moves in golf are very highly technical and there’s no simple move. Just look at how people sway when told to shift pressure. They end up moving their mass instead. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

27 minutes ago, Goober said:

And if those are bad their progression will be minimal to none. Or even worse

Its why the better videos on YouTube for instruction are the ones from amg, Chris Ryan and a few others that cover how to do the basic fundamentals like grip, posture, then each segment of the swing. The problem is most golfers want instant gratification and it doesn’t happen in golf so they keep looking for more and more quick fixes. It’s why Jen you read forums and see the ones who actually improve its the one who spend years working on a single lesson or two from a good pro. They still work on those moves 2-3 or more years down the road.

[Goober]

Well said Ricky. You are one of my favorite posters here. I would like to add that golf is a recreational activity for most if not all of us. So like you said, dedication/practice time availability is maybe one of the top questions a teacher needs to ask. And a student needs to also take into account before tackling any swing changes. I’m sure teachers have quicker fixes that will make students enjoy this game almost immediately. Versus a long term goal that would be optimal. But maybe not obtainable due to a students time restrictions 

[RickyBobby_PR]

18 minutes ago, Goober said:

Well said Ricky. You are one of my favorite posters here. I would like to add that golf is a recreational activity for most if not all of us. So like you said, dedication/practice time availability is maybe one of the top questions a teacher needs to ask. And a student needs to also take into account before tackling any swing changes. I’m sure teachers have quicker fixes that will make students enjoy this game almost immediately. Versus a long term goal that would be optimal. But maybe not obtainable due to a students time restrictions 

Correct. Most golfers don’t take lessons or get fit. Those who take lessons even frequently don’t always practice. One of the instructors that used to work where I took lessons had a student that would come in once a week on wed afternoon. He didn’t practice and they would almost have to start over every week. The instructor imo should have told the guy to keep his money and not come in for lessons Imo. 
 

I’ll go back to something Monte said about each handicap level.

High handicaps think in terms of swing changes from swing to swing, mid hdcps round to round or practice session to practice session and low hdcp and pros in terms of months or years. Most recreational golfers don’t want to dedicate the time to a hobby.

Yes good instructors have things they can teach to give a quick fix to help play better golf right away

 

[Vikkii]

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Edited November 24, 2023 by Vikkii

[Golf2Much]

A couple of years ago, a friend and I attended a Bird Academy golf school with Mary Mills (a three time women's major champion).  We started our three day adventure with setting expectations and what we wanted to work on.  When Mary got to me, I had just one:  answer "can I get any better?"  With a linty of physical limitations (broken neck, new left knee which impacted my right hip, ankylosing spondylitis, both shoulder surgeries, etc.) I just wanted to know if I could make the necessary swing changes to have an improvement in my game.  After about 90 minutes out on the range with our drivers, Mary came over and as polite as she could be, she said the answer is no.  My limitations prevented me from making the necessary moves to have a dramatic impact.  She said I could get a nominal improvement through tweaking my equipment, but not to expect anything more than that.  I thanked her and continued to integrate some minor tips she gave me.  

I think Mary was a good instructor for assessing that I wasn't process capable of making major improvements in my swing.   That didn't stop her from working with me on other parts of my game to help offset those limitations (e.g. chipping, pitching, sand shots, etc.).   I don't think my physical limitations make me a bad student.  There's a difference between intellectually knowing what to do versus physically being able to execute it.   Because my golf swing execution is limited, I need to compensate by optimizing the few things I can do and do them well to score.  That includes better game management, relentless improvement in chipping and putting and focusing on what I can do (versus obsessing on what I can't).  If anything, I think it make me a better student of the game as a whole.