RoverRick Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Anyone who every played a set of Hogan irons will know that Hogan used light weight shaft because Mr. Hogan thought it was important to feel the head during the swing. Therefore, as I understand swingweight, they have a higher swingweight. I have for the most part always played or adjusted them so that they had a higher swingweight. I thought I played better with a higher swingweight. I subscribed to the theory that you could feel the head better. I added the C Taper X Stiff shafts to my irons, and the swingweight was totally different. I added 92 grams of masking tape under the grips on my wedge yesterday. The purpose of this was to make the grip bigger. I only calculated the weight later on because I could really feel the difference.. So I took this out on the course yesterday and found that the swingweight was totally different. The C Taper is balanced different anyway, but with this tape, and a shaft that is almost 40 grams more than I had before, I am now playing a club that is totally different than I have ever played. But, I did notice, and the weather was hot yesterday, that my PW was only a couple of yards less than my 9 iron. So after playing 18 holes with the wedge, I decided to go ahead and redo all of the clubs, hybrids thru gap wedge. (A special shoutout to Pure Grips because in order to take the grips off I just hooked the gun up to the compressor and shot off the grip, then after I was finished with the tape I reinstalled the grips. Way Cool!) I have added this amount of tape to the driver, not really for swingweight but for grip comfort, and never gave swingweight a second thought. But I did this before I ever played the driver. I hit three balls in the back yard and cut off the grip and and added one I liked with the "proper" size. Well, after I did this to the irons and the hybrids I realized that that it was just not a grip size felt better but that the total weight of the club, while up, felt lighter. And much more to my liking. So today, I have my new swingweighted clubs with a lighter swingweight but a very heavy club. C Tapers are 130 g. 200+ g for head, 50 g grip and 92 g of tape. WOW! How could I have been so wrong about what swingweight is best for me? I could not feel the weight of the head compared to my old clubs, and since one of they guys I was playing with had my old clubs I could compare. But I swung these so easily it is ridiculous. I have never has a better day stricking the irons. All I wanted to do was hit full iron shots. It was cold (wind shirt weather) wet, windy this morning. 3 inches of rain last night, and the ball was flying like winter, but these irons were so sweet to hit. I had some distance control problems because sometimes the ball flew short and sometimes it was long, but it was just me trying to adjust. I am still going to do a review on the C Tapers and KBS Hybrids after I adjust to them but this swingweight deal was something that came up out of the blue. G430LST 10.5° on T P T POWER 18 Hi Driver G430MAX 3w on T P T POWER 18 Hi Fairway G425 3H on T P T POWER 18 Hi Hybrid P790 Black 4-A on TGI 80S ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on Hi Rev DF2.1 on White ProV1 Precision Pro NX7 Pro All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finalist Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 What swing weight before and after? Jack played heavy clubs that had a very light swing weight C9 i think? It's all personal preference. I spy with my little eye something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverRick Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 I honestly do not know. I did not care about what the swingweight was, I just know what I liked. I thought I liked to feel the head during the swing. But today and yesterday I learned that is not the case. I do not really feel the head and the only thing I can really compare it to is a broadsword. It is very heavy but not when you swing it. All day long it was like I was just holding a grip and making a swing, like I was just slicing the perfect divot out of the turf. The ball flight on every shot was nearly perfect. They flew long or short of the most part but several times I was right in line with the flag stick. I first noticed this yesterday with the PW. I had 3 or 4 tap in birdies with this club with a perfect (as seen on TV) ball flight. I also had plenty of other shot yesterday but today, they were all beautiful strokes. Enough so that the guys I have been playing with since 2004 told me if I played like that next weekend I was going to have to find another group because I was no longer in their league. I also put these shafts in clubs that I have played since 2004 until December. The Hogan Hybrids. They always had a head heavy feel and I struck them well before. Today they felt better than ever. I only hope that tomorrow I do not wake up and be unable to hit it out of my shadow. G430LST 10.5° on T P T POWER 18 Hi Driver G430MAX 3w on T P T POWER 18 Hi Fairway G425 3H on T P T POWER 18 Hi Hybrid P790 Black 4-A on TGI 80S ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on Hi Rev DF2.1 on White ProV1 Precision Pro NX7 Pro All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverRick Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 What swing weight before and after? Jack played heavy clubs that had a very light swing weight C9 i think? It's all personal preference. I found an online calculator and a list of the components and measured and here is what I came up with. The from the factory swingweight of a Mizuno MP62 is D2-D4. My new swingweight is F7. These numbers really mean nothing to me but I do like the new feel. I guess I was wrong because I thought that with a higher swing weight, the head felt heavier, but this is a higher swingweight, and I do not feel the head. But like I said, I cared nothing about the number, just knew if I liked the way it felt. G430LST 10.5° on T P T POWER 18 Hi Driver G430MAX 3w on T P T POWER 18 Hi Fairway G425 3H on T P T POWER 18 Hi Hybrid P790 Black 4-A on TGI 80S ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on Hi Rev DF2.1 on White ProV1 Precision Pro NX7 Pro All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK in TEXAS Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I guess I was wrong because I thought that with a higher swing weight, the head felt heavier, but this is a higher swingweight, and I do not feel the head. Swingweights kinda confuse me too. Maybe because I never really looked into them much. Anyway, I like to think of a club as either head heavy, shaft heavy, or balanced. Then the total weight either heavy, medium, or light. I prefer them slightly head heavy & medium total weight. But then......I've never really experimented with the extremes either so....... BK MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON HDCP: 8.3 (GHIN: 3143312) In my bag, April 2023 TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex) TS2 Hybrids Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex) MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex) SM8 Wedges EVNROLL ER2 Putter SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL Sun Mountain Cart Bag 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I added the C Taper X Stiff shafts to my irons, and the swingweight was totally different. In my experience KBS C-Taper (stepless) swing weights traditionally meaning that the swing weight would not change if the shaft you removed weighs the same as the C-Taper might change 1point at the most, majority of people will not be able to feel a difference in swing weight changes less then 2 points. KBS Tour (stepped) will typically drop 2 swing weight points with everything remaining the same it does not swing weight traditionally. So if you start at a D2 you will finish at a D0 with KBS Tour, KBS C-Taper would be D2 to D2 roughly. Both shafts have a 52% balance point but have very different tip section designs to achieve spin and launch angle conditions they were looking for, C-Taper just has more weight in the tip section for a stiffer tip design. What swing weight before and after? Jack played heavy clubs that had a very light swing weight C9 I think? It's all personal preference. I Think you might be confused, C9 is lighter then typical swing weights in OEMs today standard is D2 which is 3 points heavier then C9. Jack used to 'back weight' or 'counter weight' all of his clubs making them swing weight lighter. 0.600 diameter grips on a 0.600 butt shaft are designed to take one layer of double sided tape without changing the grips over all diameter. Build up tape is primarily used to get in between offered grip sizes or as 'lower hand build up'. With that said, one FULL strip (about 10" for most grips) of build up is 2 grams added to the butt section, this is about 0.5 swing weight point on the grip end. As I said above majority of people will not notice a change of less then 2 swing weight points, some will most won't. To build up a standard size you need two wraps of build-up (4 grams added) and one wrap of double sided (2+1 so to speak). This would REDUCE swing weight by about 1 point, from D2 to D1 if everything else stayed the same. NOTE: duct tape, household masking tape, double sided tape all have different thicknesses and weight to them, I am basing these numbers on the fact you have build-up tape produced specifically for golf, that is exactly 1/64" in the end result of build-up. It is not going to be the same if you build up with double sided, smaller thickness masking tape, duct tape, etc. I have 3 wraps of build under my lower hand on my grips, they are a 0.590 core so the build up effects them slightly differently then it would on a 0.580 or 0.600 core. Regardless I have added roughly 3grams of tape under my grips so about 1.5 swing weight points. The end result is my shafts swing weighting -1 point roughly less then what they would without build up tape. In short, 5 grams on the grip end is -1 swing weight point, 2 grams on the head side is about +1 swing weight point. swing weight technical stuff --> http://advancedballstriking.com/Swing_weights.pdf swing weight charts --> http://www.golf-components.com/swing-weight-chart-woods.html EDIT: 92grams of tape would be something absurd in terms of tape wraps, it would be about 46wraps, I am inclined to think that this number is not accurate Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverRick Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 96 grams may be an absurd number. When I convert that to ounces I get 3.4. I do not have a gram scale, and while I deal with metric wieghts and measures everyday, what a gram or an ounce feels like is nothing to me. That is about the third of a can of beer and I can hold that in my mouth. and that is the only reference I have. (yes I know that is fluid ounces) Having said that the swingweight calculation that I did on the internet does not seem remotely right. but since I have never done that before I have no reference. However, what I did at the butt of the club I put two wraps of two inch wide masking tape around the diameter of the shaft. I then moved down and put three wraps or so around the next two inches until it was the same size as the butt, and so on for the next two inches and there are five wraps. So the grip is really huge. I did this stickly to change the size of the grip and gave no thought to the weight being added to the club. I calculated that I used .85 or so meters. I could get that much tape and weigh it but did not. I calculated it based on what he roll of tape said it weighed. As I said, I never cared and honestly did not pay attention to swingweight numbers because C0, D1, and D4 mean less to me than 50 grams. All I know is that not only did I like the feel of the grip much better after it was larger, I loved the way the feel of the weight changed. Where previously liked a head heavy club, I like this feel better. The thing that was the most interesting to me was that changing from a 90 gram steel shaft to a 130 gram shaft made the club feel so much heavier, but adding weight under the grip made it feel not as heavy. I read the thread on "The Secret Grip" or back weighted grip a couple of months ago. I found it interesting that they would say that by adding weight to the butt you could improve distance and accuracy. Winn says with their lighter grips you can add distance and accuracy. I have used them and know that that is a fact, but since their grips only last a couple of rounds (a slight exaggeration, they last 20 rounds) I went back to regular grips. So how can both be right? G430LST 10.5° on T P T POWER 18 Hi Driver G430MAX 3w on T P T POWER 18 Hi Fairway G425 3H on T P T POWER 18 Hi Hybrid P790 Black 4-A on TGI 80S ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on Hi Rev DF2.1 on White ProV1 Precision Pro NX7 Pro All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Take the weight of the grip will change the swing weight faster then tape will, for example going from a standard 50gram grip down to a a WinnLite Pro at 25grams that is going to add about 5 swing weight points alone to the club roughly. Go from a D2 to a D9 or E0, sounds heavy as heck but it really is not that is with everything staying the same with the exception of 25grams in weight for a grip. 5 wraps (1/2 wraps, full wraps is 10 grams) would be about 5 to 8 grams in added weight around 1 to 1.5 points of change, butt of the club is 5grams per 1 point... The head of the golf club is about 2grams per 1 point in swing weight, you get faster results with changing head weight then adding butt weight. Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBones Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 My new swingweight is F7. These numbers really mean nothing to me but I do like the new feel. Holy sh!t, thats like a brick attached to a shaft. When I played my Burner at 44.5", I had to add a ton of lead tape to get it to a D6; when I put that head on my Black Ops at 46" (total length) without taking the tape off, it felt like I had a 10lb weight on the end of the shaft and it measured at F0. Follow @GolfspyBones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Holy sh!t, thats like a brick attached to a shaft. When I played my Burner at 44.5", I had to add a ton of lead tape to get it to a D6; when I put that head on my Black Ops at 46" (total length) without taking the tape off, it felt like I had a 10lb weight on the end of the shaft and it measured at F0. I must have missed the part about F7, good lord that is a lot of weight on that sucker, I like something that is about D4 +/- 1point, I haven't swing weighted my clubs in a long time with the tape on them, I don't really care like you said it feels good to me and preforms well. Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookieBlue7 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Basic swingweight figuring conversions: 1/2" = 3 swing weight points 2 gr club head weight = 1 swing weight point 5 gr grip = 1 swing weight point 9 gr shaft weight differences = 1 swing weight point 4* flatter lie or more up right lie = increase or decrease 1 swing weight point As for C-Tapers, I've found they balance VERY differently than any other shaft I've ever swingweighted . The same exact weight in those and the DG Tour Issues, for me, produced a 4 point swing (lighter sw). Got around it with tip weights. In The BagDriver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400 SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerLW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerXW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger steppedPutter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Well I just figured I would settle the back and forth and put a post into KBS and their official thread, I'll wait on a response, If I am wrong and have been in the past I'll admit to it. In the case my above statements of C-Taper's swing weighting more traditionally then the KBS Tour model are wrong once KBS responds, then my applogizes for the poor information. But I really don't see them coming in at a 4point drop, KBS Tour was a 2 point drop and it has a weaker tip section. Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverRick Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 That F7 calculation that I got off an internet site is totally wrong. As I understand it that would be a brick on a stick. By adding the weight under the grip, I moved the center of gravity so that the head feels less heavy. And that was my point, I thought I liked a head heavy feel, but I like this better. Since I posted the original thing, however, I have come to the conclusion that the Extra Stiff C Tapers may be too much for me. I am still testing but I have a set of KBS Tours in Stiff that I ordered. I used an online calculator where you put in the numbers and it tells you the swingweight and did it quickly. Obviously that is not correct. I figured that I could sell the C Tapers and X100's or KBS Tours whichever I decide is not best for me and get my money back because I am getting them all pretty cheap. The tours will be here before the weekend and I will pop the C Tapers out and put in the Tours, and play the weekend with them. That will give be about a week with each shaft. Edit: The point was not really how it affected the swingweight number but how you could add weight under the grip, and the club would feel lighter in the swing. I had given no real thought to the weight when doing this I just knew it felt better. G430LST 10.5° on T P T POWER 18 Hi Driver G430MAX 3w on T P T POWER 18 Hi Fairway G425 3H on T P T POWER 18 Hi Hybrid P790 Black 4-A on TGI 80S ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on Hi Rev DF2.1 on White ProV1 Precision Pro NX7 Pro All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBones Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 A swingweight scale is one of the best golfing investments I've made. Follow @GolfspyBones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookieBlue7 Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Rick, those C-Tapers play stiffer than traditional X flex. They frequency around 7.3 if memory serves and the S+ around 6.7. I had them in S+ and they were in line with X100's and PX 7.0's. I liked them but much preferred the S300 DG Tour Issues hard stepped once. The lighter flex hard stepped seemed to add a bit of feel for me, and I loved the KBS feel the C-Tapers have. And JMiller, I've built 8 sets with C-Tapers and they're always funky swingweights(between 3 and 4 points different than the shafts they're swapped for). Everyone I know and have talked to that's actually built a set of clubs with them have experienced the same thing, funky Swingweighting. The KBS Tours actually swingweight more normally than them(I've built 40 or 50 sets with those). Have you built a set or are you just going off of static weights? If that's the case, the balance point of the shafts plays a factor in Swingweighting. In The BagDriver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400 SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerLW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerXW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger steppedPutter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy WD Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 A swingweight scale is one of the best golfing investments I've made. +1. I bought one off ebay. Same one as this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Swingweight-scale-from-golfsmith-/230789672528?pt=Golf_Clubmaking_Products_US&hash=item35bc22ee50 @GolfSpy_WD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Rick, those C-Tapers play stiffer than traditional X flex. They frequency around 7.3 if memory serves and the S+ around 6.7. I had them in S+ and they were in line with X100's and PX 7.0's. I liked them but much preferred the S300 DG Tour Issues hard stepped once. The lighter flex hard stepped seemed to add a bit of feel for me, and I loved the KBS feel the C-Tapers have. And JMiller, I've built 8 sets with C-Tapers and they're always funky swingweights(between 3 and 4 points different than the shafts they're swapped for). Everyone I know and have talked to that's actually built a set of clubs with them have experienced the same thing, funky Swingweighting. The KBS Tours actually swingweight more normally than them(I've built 40 or 50 sets with those). Have you built a set or are you just going off of static weights? If that's the case, the balance point of the shafts plays a factor in Swingweighting. I'm of the opinion you're getting funky swing weights because your C-Tapers have a heavier butt section than your old shafts. You also defeat the design of those shafts when you force the swing weight back to the ones you had before by adding tape or tip weights. Depending on the average diameter of the shafts involved and the wall thickness, you might even end up back where you started, performance wise, before the change. I'm just guessing here as I don't have and have never had any experience with the C Taper. When you move the balance point away from the head, you end up with a stiffer feeling shaft. When you add weight to the head, thereby moving the balance point towards the head, you end up with a softer feeling shaft. The actual subjective results at the extremes where we are overdoing things are either a non responsive shaft or a flippy head. As a tool this is a perfectly workable technique for the desperately unwilling to spend but have plenty of time and labor. It's really much more simple to just buy the shaft that has the right characteristics and install accordingly. Nicklaus was in the habit of adding butt weights and tip weights to maintain his balance point but also get a heavier club that he felt helped his game. There weren't as many choices for equipment in those days. Shambles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Rick, those C-Tapers play stiffer than traditional X flex. They frequency around 7.3 if memory serves and the S+ around 6.7. I had them in S+ and they were in line with X100's and PX 7.0's. I liked them but much preferred the S300 DG Tour Issues hard stepped once. The lighter flex hard stepped seemed to add a bit of feel for me, and I loved the KBS feel the C-Tapers have. And JMiller, I've built 8 sets with C-Tapers and they're always funky swingweights(between 3 and 4 points different than the shafts they're swapped for). Everyone I know and have talked to that's actually built a set of clubs with them have experienced the same thing, funky Swingweighting. The KBS Tours actually swingweight more normally than them(I've built 40 or 50 sets with those). Have you built a set or are you just going off of static weights? If that's the case, the balance point of the shafts plays a factor in Swingweighting. I posted numbers in the Miura Review that I did for shafts, here is a copy the C-Taper and Tour play smoother and softer feeling in over all stiffness then the Butt CPM coefficient leads you to believe. I found this on another site, but the numbers look about right in terms of feel and over all stiffness, ss = Soft Stepped, hs = Hard Stepped, this is for tapper tips not parallel, parallel tip trim to flex you want. DGS300ss = 5.5FCM DGS300 = 5.8FCM DGS300hs = 6.1FCM PX5.5ss = 5.8FCM PX5.5 = 6.0FCM PX5.5hs = 6.2FCM PX6.0ss = 6.3FCM PX6.0 = 6.5FCM PX6.0hs = 6.7FCM DGX100ssx2 = 6.2FCM DGX100ss = 6.5FCM DGX100 = 6.8FCM DGX100hs = 7.1FCM I added these numbers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PX 6.5ss = 6.7FCM PX 6.5 = 7.0FCM PX 6.5hs = 7.2FCM KBS Tour Xss = 6.5FCM KBS Tour X = 6.7FCM KBS Tour Xhs = 7.0FCM KBS CT Xss = 6.6FCM KBS CT X = 6.8FCM KBS CT Xhs = 7.1FCM Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I'm of the opinion you're getting funky swing weights because your C-Tapers have a heavier butt section than your old shafts. You also defeat the design of those shafts when you force the swing weight back to the ones you had before by adding tape or tip weights. Depending on the average diameter of the shafts involved and the wall thickness, you might even end up back where you started, performance wise, before the change. I'm just guessing here as I don't have and have never had any experience with the C Taper. When you move the balance point away from the head, you end up with a stiffer feeling shaft. When you add weight to the head, thereby moving the balance point towards the head, you end up with a softer feeling shaft. The actual subjective results at the extremes where we are overdoing things are either a non responsive shaft or a flippy head. As a tool this is a perfectly workable technique for the desperately unwilling to spend but have plenty of time and labor. It's really much more simple to just buy the shaft that has the right characteristics and install accordingly. Nicklaus was in the habit of adding butt weights and tip weights to maintain his balance point but also get a heavier club that he felt helped his game. There weren't as many choices for equipment in those days. Shambles I got a call into my friend that has been building clubs over 20 years, if anyone knew the answer off the top of his head it would been him. His words were 'It depends on the flex, Regular shafts are 100grams in C-Taper. I have heard some people getting off swing weights in the shorter irons if they improperly or didn't weight the heads. Some people have had to add 2grams of weight to the lower irons additionally to get swing weights properly.' One of the reasons that I don't go to just anyone to have irons built is I have seen one too many times hack club builders not even weight heads and get them to the proper target weight before assembly and pre-calculate the swing weight for the shaft going into them. If you build a set of Regular flex C-Tapers that is 110grams, DG R2 (122g) / R3 (125g) / R4 (129), this would account for about 10 to 15 grams or about 3 points probably maybe even 4 points in some cases, so we are probably both correct in our statements, HOWEVER, I play X-Stiff shafts DG x1 (130g) / DG x2 (132g) / DG x3 (134g), PX 6.5 (125g), C-Taper X-Stiff (130g)... so the weight change is minimal and thus would swing weight roughly the same. Maybe I should have clarified the flex I was referring to when making my statements. Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookieBlue7 Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 All of the swaps I've done we're from DG's to CT's, PX to CT's or KBS Tour to CT. And I swingweight with a swingweight scale. Raw shaft to raw shaft, when dry fitting the CT's are always a different swingweight with the same heads. Again, I've built several sets and they rarely come in and not need much heavier tip weights to get to the same swingweight. Example: R11 heads off the tour van 7 gram deviations between the heads with black heavier weights Still had to add 8 grams of tip weight to get to D4 (preferred SW in that build) versus the same heads dry fit with DG Tour Issues needing 2 grams to get there Example 2: Adams MB2 6.5 gram headweight deviations PX Satin 6.0 needed 4 grams of tip weight CT S+ needed 10 grams Both to get to D4 These were personal club builds for me. I've done them for others and experienced the same things dependent upon the heads and their deviations. I don't use lead tape, it's ugly. I use brass or lead tip weights depending on how much weight is needed. In The BagDriver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400 SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerLW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold SpinnerXW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger steppedPutter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverRick Posted May 15, 2012 Author Share Posted May 15, 2012 OK, the good wife came back home from her trip and I asked her to leave the gram scale in some place that I could possibly find and had access to. Those of you who at least live with a woman understand what i mean. So I weighted and measured my clubs and according to http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT I found that my hybrids with the KBS Hybrid shafts are about a D7 and the Irons with the C Taper shaft come to about an E1 (5 iron) to E3 (PW). This is still a pretty heavy swing weight but it feels much more balanced. Also, somewhere along the was when calculating the weight of the tape, I was off a didget. I rolled tape around a piece of shaft and weighed it and it came out to 9 to 10 grams vs. 96 grams. Even so not the point was it made the club feel better balanced. My driver also calculates to E2. Later this week, I will change these shafts out to the KBS Tours and see how those measure. I did not and have never added a swing weight to the club head. I never felt the need but that may be because I like the chunkier head design. By that I mean the forged muscleback not the high tech cavity back with the thin face. think muscle back vs R7. G430LST 10.5° on T P T POWER 18 Hi Driver G430MAX 3w on T P T POWER 18 Hi Fairway G425 3H on T P T POWER 18 Hi Hybrid P790 Black 4-A on TGI 80S ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on Hi Rev DF2.1 on White ProV1 Precision Pro NX7 Pro All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 OK, the good wife came back home from her trip and I asked her to leave the gram scale in some place that I could possibly find and had access to. Those of you who at least live with a woman understand what i mean. So I weighted and measured my clubs and according to http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT I found that my hybrids with the KBS Hybrid shafts are about a D7 and the Irons with the C Taper shaft come to about an E1 (5 iron) to E3 (PW). This is still a pretty heavy swing weight but it feels much more balanced. Also, somewhere along the was when calculating the weight of the tape, I was off a didget. I rolled tape around a piece of shaft and weighed it and it came out to 9 to 10 grams vs. 96 grams. Even so not the point was it made the club feel better balanced. My driver also calculates to E2. Later this week, I will change these shafts out to the KBS Tours and see how those measure. I did not and have never added a swing weight to the club head. I never felt the need but that may be because I like the chunkier head design. By that I mean the forged muscleback not the high tech cavity back with the thin face. think muscle back vs R7. That was me talking about the weight of the tape, yea the 9 or 10 grams of weight seems like more reasonable for 5 wraps of build up, that's about 1.5 to 2 points towards the lighter swing weight side. Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy WD Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 OK, the good wife came back home from her trip and I asked her to leave the gram scale in some place that I could possibly find and had access to. Those of you who at least live with a woman understand what i mean. So I weighted and measured my clubs and according to http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT I found that my hybrids with the KBS Hybrid shafts are about a D7 and the Irons with the C Taper shaft come to about an E1 (5 iron) to E3 (PW). This is still a pretty heavy swing weight but it feels much more balanced. Also, somewhere along the was when calculating the weight of the tape, I was off a didget. I rolled tape around a piece of shaft and weighed it and it came out to 9 to 10 grams vs. 96 grams. Even so not the point was it made the club feel better balanced. My driver also calculates to E2. Later this week, I will change these shafts out to the KBS Tours and see how those measure. I did not and have never added a swing weight to the club head. I never felt the need but that may be because I like the chunkier head design. By that I mean the forged muscleback not the high tech cavity back with the thin face. think muscle back vs R7. What, you don't know exactly where everything is after she puts it away without telling you? It's pretty hard to get to that high of SW without adding an extra inch to an extra inch and a half (+6 to +9 SW). Since you add midsize grips and tape, it seems odd the SW goes up that much, even with a relatively heavy shaft. I've measured my clubs at D0. I'll try out the website against my scale and see what it says. As an aside, I found a nice article on Swing weight: http://advancedballstriking.com/Swing_weights.pdf @GolfSpy_WD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoverRick Posted May 15, 2012 Author Share Posted May 15, 2012 What, you don't know exactly where everything is after she puts it away without telling you? It's pretty hard to get to that high of SW without adding an extra inch to an extra inch and a half (+6 to +9 SW). Since you add midsize grips and tape, it seems odd the SW goes up that much, even with a relatively heavy shaft. I've measured my clubs at D0. I'll try out the website against my scale and see what it says. As an aside, I found a nice article on Swing weight: http://advancedballs...ing_weights.pdf They are an extra half an inch long. G430LST 10.5° on T P T POWER 18 Hi Driver G430MAX 3w on T P T POWER 18 Hi Fairway G425 3H on T P T POWER 18 Hi Hybrid P790 Black 4-A on TGI 80S ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on Hi Rev DF2.1 on White ProV1 Precision Pro NX7 Pro All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 What, you don't know exactly where everything is after she puts it away without telling you? It's pretty hard to get to that high of SW without adding an extra inch to an extra inch and a half (+6 to +9 SW). Since you add midsize grips and tape, it seems odd the SW goes up that much, even with a relatively heavy shaft. I've measured my clubs at D0. I'll try out the website against my scale and see what it says. As an aside, I found a nice article on Swing weight: http://advancedballstriking.com/Swing_weights.pdf I already had that PDF posted guess people over looked it, but thanks for the repost, guess it needed dragged out of my OP in this thread. swing weight technical stuff --> http://advancedballstriking.com/Swing_weights.pdf swing weight charts --> http://www.golf-components.com/swing-weight-chart-woods.html Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy WD Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I already had that PDF posted guess people over looked it, but thanks for the repost, guess it needed dragged out of my OP in this thread. Whoops, sorry JM! @GolfSpy_WD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Whoops, sorry JM! nah it's cool, like I said it was on Page 1 in my OP at the bottom surrounded by text, no one saw it, but your right it is a good article AS I was saying earlier, swing weight is dependent on flex in the KBS C-Taper, I just assumed X-Stiff since it was what I have dealt with. DG x100 (130g) ~ PX 6.5 (125g) ~ KBS C-Taper XS (130g), just still don't see where the 4 points lighter would come from in this situation unless the head is not at target weight. Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy WD Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 They are an extra half an inch long. So are mine. I think the issue may be how the club is measured? I just noticed that page only asks for total weight and balance point. I'm not sure how it's possible to measure without knowing the total club length as well. Try this one if you know all the component weights: http://www.hirekogolf.com/hireko/graphics/orderportal/modules/swingweight.html @GolfSpy_WD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 So are mine. I think the issue may be how the club is measured? I just noticed that page only asks for total weight and balance point. I'm not sure how it's possible to measure without knowing the total club length as well. Try this one if you know all the component weights: http://www.hirekogolf.com/hireko/graphics/orderportal/modules/swingweight.html Major elements into a swing weight --> Shaft weight --> Playing length --> Balance point --> Grip Weight Minor Elements --> Grip tape (double sided) --> Grip Tape (build-up) --> epoxy --> ferrule --> lie angle (3* will be one point) Given majority of people don't have a digital swing weight scale that reads to a 10th of a decimal for swing weight, I can only give target head weights for a 130g shaft playing at 38.75" 3 iron 'old modern standard' or as i like to call it 'builders standard' to get a D2 result roughly. Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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