Big brands vs DTC irons.... Best choices?

[Caddie1966]

On 6/2/2023 at 10:03 AM, Steven Senft said:

I have been searching for the most "responsible" and "real" answers, but the internet can be a dark place, so let's have the conversation here.

When you are in the market for a new set of irons, would you consider DTC brands (Takomo, Caley, Haywood, RAM, PXG, etc.) or just the "big brands" (Titleist, Mizuno, Taylormade, etc.)? 

Also, reading through some of the material I found, DTC brands all come from the same "factory"? Haywood, RAM, Caley and Takomo sets look identical... any ideas as to which one you would go for?

Thanks!

I was fitted a year and a half ago for PXG irons.  No charge for the fitting and it included Trackman results.  Took an hour.  I met their fitter at a local range and had the clubs within a week.  Mine were set 2 degrees flat and had oversize Golf Pride grips on them.  I would call PXG and find out if they have a local fitter you can meet with.  

[azstu324]

Kind of a late voice to this party, but what I've gathered over the years of playing a DTC brand (Maltby), and being very opened to and interested in the DTC underworld.. there are 3 defining categories of DTC that could make a difference. 

1. Clone or semi-clone brands. These are companies to be cautious of. Usually the quality is just ok and they're just putting out models similar looking to older models of some OEM's. Gigagolf or Pine Meadow are brands that come to mind. These aren't counterfeit clubs but just clones. Many years ago I played some of both companies offerings. Initially I thought they were great but eventually found my way further down the DTC rabbit hole. My eyes were then opened to a whole other world and these brands kind of became live/learn scenarios for me. 

2. DTC brands with non-original designs. Often times (especially recently), a person or group of people with some money in the bank decide they want to start a golf club company. New tooling for original forge or casting dyes costs a LOT. When another company has a model being stamped or cast at a foundry, they often run it for a period of time until they decide to discontinue the model. There's an expiration time on the stamping dye and after that time is up, the design becomes part of the foundry's open catalogue. Many of these overnight and even bigger DTC companies are just putting their names on expired foundry dyes and maybe just making some tweaks to the grinds, or finishes. This is why we are seeing so many "similar" looking models between some companies. Essentially it's the same club with different names. Additionally it helps save cost on paying engineers to design new models and R&D to test the clubs. Many of these are still high-quality turn outs but there is more room for error and quality control tolerances could be questioned. Also the tech on these could be somewhat outdated but that's another subjective topic for another day. 

3. Lastly there's the original design DTC. These companies work just like the big boys but at a much smaller scale. They have their own in-house designers/engineers and they're able to stay in the pocket with modern tech and design. Often the club designer is the person who started the business and likely has an admirable design pedigree working for bigger companies in the past. You will find more design originality, enhanced service levels, and just an overall higher level of pride taken in the product. 

Maltby is a great example and why I've been using their clubs for a few years now. The company was started by Ralph Maltby many years ago after he decided to break away from main stream companies where he designed many models. In the past 5 or so years, Britt Lindsay has taken the mantle on but he was an understudy of Ralphs for many years so the lineage is still very relevant. 

I've also found hybrid versions of #2 and #3 with re-prints AND originals in their lineup. 

Y'all know me.. if you have anything else to add or correct, please chime in! 

 

That said I'm going to start another thread showcasing DTC brands where we can all show off our brands and talk about the pro's and con's and why we all went with our respective brands. TBC

 

[HikingMike]

On 9/2/2023 at 2:04 PM, azstu324 said:

Kind of a late voice to this party, but what I've gathered over the years of playing a DTC brand (Maltby), and being very opened to and interested in the DTC underworld.. there are 3 defining categories of DTC that could make a difference. 

1. Clone or semi-clone brands. These are companies to be cautious of. Usually the quality is just ok and they're just putting out models similar looking to older models of some OEM's. Gigagolf or Pine Meadow are brands that come to mind. These aren't counterfeit clubs but just clones. Many years ago I played some of both companies offerings. Initially I thought they were great but eventually found my way further down the DTC rabbit hole. My eyes were then opened to a whole other world and these brands kind of became live/learn scenarios for me. 

2. DTC brands with non-original designs. Often times (especially recently), a person or group of people with some money in the bank decide they want to start a golf club company. New tooling for original forge or casting dyes costs a LOT. When another company has a model being stamped or cast at a foundry, they often run it for a period of time until they decide to discontinue the model. There's an expiration time on the stamping dye and after that time is up, the design becomes part of the foundry's open catalogue. Many of these overnight and even bigger DTC companies are just putting their names on expired foundry dyes and maybe just making some tweaks to the grinds, or finishes. This is why we are seeing so many "similar" looking models between some companies. Essentially it's the same club with different names. Additionally it helps save cost on paying engineers to design new models and R&D to test the clubs. Many of these are still high-quality turn outs but there is more room for error and quality control tolerances could be questioned. Also the tech on these could be somewhat outdated but that's another subjective topic for another day. 

3. Lastly there's the original design DTC. These companies work just like the big boys but at a much smaller scale. They have their own in-house designers/engineers and they're able to stay in the pocket with modern tech and design. Often the club designer is the person who started the business and likely has an admirable design pedigree working for bigger companies in the past. You will find more design originality, enhanced service levels, and just an overall higher level of pride taken in the product. 

Maltby is a great example and why I've been using their clubs for a few years now. The company was started by Ralph Maltby many years ago after he decided to break away from main stream companies where he designed many models. In the past 5 or so years, Britt Lindsay has taken the mantle on but he was an understudy of Ralphs for many years so the lineage is still very relevant. 

I've also found hybrid versions of #2 and #3 with re-prints AND originals in their lineup. 

Y'all know me.. if you have anything else to add or correct, please chime in! 

 

That said I'm going to start another thread showcasing DTC brands where we can all show off our brands and talk about the pro's and con's and why we all went with our respective brands. TBC

 

Did you start this other thread about DTC brands? I just came across this thread and it was a great read. I am interested in DTC brands for irons and I can probably add some questions.

[HikingMike]

I'm going to throw out some thoughts on this stuff now that I've learned a lot. It may be a bit stream-of-consciousness so fair warning there. I just started typing what I was thinking. I don't have any direct questions yet, but I welcome any additional thoughts or clarifications from others on this stuff. What do you think about the DTC golf clubs situation? 

There are so many cool iron sets out there now. I like to see the DTC sets out now since they give you a lesser known, but still high quality option for sometimes a significantly lower price. If it works for you, why not? I don't have any loyalty to big brands, though maybe Ping a little, nothing irrational. I also don't really care too much what the pros play. I do like a couple Titleist balls, but it's because I seem to do well with them. I haven't actually watched golf on TV forever. And a DTC set of irons would be a bit unique. It's intriguing for sure. Golf companions would surely be curious. If I hit something better than others, I'll go for it, even if it's PXG, lol. I like this dispassionate data-driven mindset now. 

I'm seeing these Takomo irons that rated very highly for MyGolfSpy's players irons roundup and look amazing, and there are cool McGregor and Ram and they may bring new Ben Hogan irons soon. I've heard of Haywood and Maltby. Sub 70 is actually in my state, though a 4 hour drive away.

Anyway I think this development is really neat in the industry. It reminds me of the craft beer explosion. I can see there could be a widely varying amount of engineering in these DTC designs. That part does differ with the craft beer analogy. I don't know how many iron lines I would be able to test at a Golf Galaxy or Club Champion. But it makes me want to test some of these. I've become more of a gear head only this year and doing more reading now when I did none before. I wouldn't even know about these brands if I hadn't. And I also want to know I can play a set better than another before I buy one. That's a potential edge that I can't pass up now. But that's a tough one for the DTCs.

But back to the engineering - this makes me wonder about the engineering going on at club manufacturers and these DTC club makers. The big names definitely have an engineering team. It may not be many people, I don't know. But they are thinking about the club shape, structure, materials, and all of that in depth. They have some experience working on previous designs so there is a bunch of institutional knowledge there. And they are doing testing on various things. So that's great, I can have trust they are putting in the effort in a new club design and not just making a metal object that is shaped slightly differently from the others.

For a brand like MacGregor's new irons, I remember reading in MyGolfSpy's article that a well known club designer came on to design those. He had been at a bigger manufacturer both prior and after and in the industry a long time.

For the other DTC though, what happens with the engineering? It is definitely a possibility that most things under the sun have already been done over and over again. These irons are hunks of metal, with a shape, sometimes an internal structure, and made with material(s). There isn't a lot there. They aren't microchips. They've actually been around a lot longer than microchips and have changed less. So a club designer could do so without any engineering or materials background at all, and I think we see some of that as part of this DTC market.

And it sounds like in this case, often the institutional knowledge has shifted to the Chinese-factory-for-hire. That's not a knock. Apparently they put out a good product so they know what they are doing. In some cases it ends up being a collaborative process designing the clubs between the engineers of the factory and the investor/designer at the DTC company. It certainly makes for a diversity of process on how we get to the end product today.

[Deepred]

I think most of the engineering is done by the foundry, either on their own or at the prodding of the club company. Golfsmith was selling C455 steel faced fairways 20 years ago. Now TM does it and it’s some sort of revaluation. 
I just tried out the Ram FX77 which is similar to several club heads and performed as well as an iron can. A little short on toe ward shots compared to the Maltby KE4 Tour+ but most irons aren’t as forgiving as the Maltby is.

 

[Adrien Asselineau]

I recently wrote a review of 3 top Direct To Consumer golf brands, hope it helps: https://screengolfers.com/blog/direct-to-consumer-golf-clubs

As I'm based in Europe, I can't consider Sub70 clubs because of customs (expensive to import), but Takomo and Caley golf yes

[theblake7]

Unless the DTC is doing their own R&D,  then whats the point of paying their markup (aside from drinking that brands cool aid marketing) might as well buy off the shelf in K-Mart. 

Maltby, Wishon,  KZG are the ones that come to mind,  but technically these are not DTC either.   Maltby does sell DTC but their core market is wholesale to clubmakers.

[Randall Robbins]

From my profile, you can see where I lean now. Wasn't always the case, but through my own testing and playing, I came to Sub 70 after having played Ping, Wilson, Hogan and Cleveland in the past.  As to R/D for the DTCs, since some of them are on our forum, perhaps they would care to comment?

[Steven Senft]

That's literally why I am having this discussion in my head. A DTC option seems like the "new" wave, but it's hard to pull the trigger when you can't trust the brand or test a club... I know there are demo programs for RAM, SUB70, and others, but that already feels like a commitment. 

[HikingMike]

14 hours ago, theblake7 said:

Unless the DTC is doing their own R&D,  then whats the point of paying their markup (aside from drinking that brands cool aid marketing) 

Well... it's just plain price. Compare the price to Big 4/5, price per performance. Hey I like knowing a company fully designs their own clubs and passes on institutional knowledge, but this is the difference in business models. The Big 4/5 have big companies. The DTC can start with just a few people and relatively low initial investment. They didn't exist before since the option for such a low initial investment was not there. With a combination of factors, now it's feasible. A short time ago, it was hard enough for companies just making putters (not even counting competition). 

I guess there is a cool factor too... you might like their Youtube marketers or something, or you can have the unique clubs none of your buddies have seen yet, nifty ferrules, black finish  And you can have some custom specs when ordering, unlike Kmart off-the-shelf. Some would not trade away the rep, engineering, comfort zone of a Big 4/5. Others couldn't care less. 

28 minutes ago, Steven Senft said:

That's literally why I am having this discussion in my head. A DTC option seems like the "new" wave, but it's hard to pull the trigger when you can't trust the brand or test a club... I know there are demo programs for RAM, SUB70, and others, but that already feels like a commitment. 

Yeah I wish there were a better way to try them out and get fitted with an expert, on an even footing with something in golf stores. I wonder if it would make sense for an independent golf shop to do something like that. 

[Randall Robbins]

Mike, funny you mention that - I know around you that you have a place in Wood River that can do fittings or has demo days.  Also, a place like Sub 70 suggests that you can get fitting info and give it to them to see what they can put you in.  Besides, for you, it's only a scenic 4 hour trip up to Sycamore, and there are several courses you can hit along the way.

[couch_crusader]

Just chiming in here (with my first ever MGS forum comment - which should tell you something!) to say that Sub70 has far exceeded my expectations. I first tried their equipment when I was looking for a more affordable wedge option than the OEMs who were charging $180/pop. I wanted wedges that I could afford to replace every year or two if I wanted to, so I gave Sub70 JB wedges a shot when I added a 50° to the bag last year. They ran me about $115, so less than 2/3 the price of the big boys. I've since replaced my vokey 54 and 60 with JB wedges and added their 004 putter to the bag - and have convinced several friends/family to join the Sub70 gang too. 

Really can't recommend them enough - their product is excellent, customer service is exceptional and the gear looks cool too! My only beef is with their putter headcover. Sub70, if you're reading this, please make a magnetic version!

[RetiredBoomer]

On 6/2/2023 at 11:03 AM, Steven Senft said:

I have been searching for the most "responsible" and "real" answers, but the internet can be a dark place, so let's have the conversation here.

When you are in the market for a new set of irons, would you consider DTC brands (Takomo, Caley, Haywood, RAM, PXG, etc.) or just the "big brands" (Titleist, Mizuno, Taylormade, etc.)? 

Also, reading through some of the material I found, DTC brands all come from the same "factory"? Haywood, RAM, Caley and Takomo sets look identical... any ideas as to which one you would go for?

Thanks!

My level of play isn't a factor in my choice of clubs, unfortunately.  I could probably do as well with off-brand models, but vanity dissuades me.   I've occasionally tried "informercial" clubs,
and gotten ribbed over them just about every time.  

Play what you like, what you can afford, and what works for you--that should be the methodology.  I worry too much about how my bag looks.  

    

[fixurpitch]

With a few exceptions most DTCs seem to be 1020 carbon steel forgings with some CNC finishing.  Materials-wise, that compares well with the one piece models from the big boys. It gives you a closer comparison where bounce, shape, VCOG, etc. affect the differences. 
 

The hollow body models are the tougher to get right imo. I’ve heard stories of some DTC pitching wedges flying much longer than they should, for ex. The big boys spend a lot of cash to get the sound, feel, launch, and (somewhat) predictable distances. Think evolution of the P790. 
 

The last four sets I’ve played were Mizuno, Srixon, DTC, DTC (both New Level). There’s no difference in quality across those. All excellent sets. 

[HikingMike]

23 hours ago, Randall Robbins said:

Mike, funny you mention that - I know around you that you have a place in Wood River that can do fittings or has demo days.  Also, a place like Sub 70 suggests that you can get fitting info and give it to them to see what they can put you in.  Besides, for you, it's only a scenic 4 hour trip up to Sycamore, and there are several courses you can hit along the way.

That’s awesome, haha! Yes, I found the place in Wood River last fall, and I couldn’t believe I hadn’t known about it before. Great place! I got a driver fitting there, and bought my current used G400 LST driver there. And it turns out my dad has a connection with the owner’s dad, and I’ve talked with him over email. Crazy.

How did you know about it? You must have some connection to this area too. I swear there are STL area people all over this forum.  

Yes, as an independent shop, it’s possible they may do something to facilitate a DTC fitting if I asked. By the way, they do carry a nice selection of brands.

About Sub 70… I have indeed googled the location and mapped it a few times to check out the drive. It’s far for a drive. But it’s definitely an option I have that others don’t. I think Tour Edge is based in the Chicago burbs as well. 
 

Here’s my post about finding my driver:

 

[Randall Robbins]

Mike, I lived in Collinsville and Glen Carbon from 1977 until 1995, moved to Springfield, retired to NC in 2008, then came back to Edwardsville in 2014 through 2018.  So, yes, I know the area and state pretty eell.

[HikingMike]

18 hours ago, Randall Robbins said:

Mike, I lived in Collinsville and Glen Carbon from 1977 until 1995, moved to Springfield, retired to NC in 2008, then came back to Edwardsville in 2014 through 2018.  So, yes, I know the area and state pretty eell.

That’s great. Cheers!

[Shrek74]

On 6/2/2023 at 10:03 AM, Steven Senft said:

I have been searching for the most "responsible" and "real" answers, but the internet can be a dark place, so let's have the conversation here.

When you are in the market for a new set of irons, would you consider DTC brands (Takomo, Caley, Haywood, RAM, PXG, etc.) or just the "big brands" (Titleist, Mizuno, Taylormade, etc.)? 

Also, reading through some of the material I found, DTC brands all come from the same "factory"? Haywood, RAM, Caley and Takomo sets look identical... any ideas as to which one you would go for?

Thanks!

My answer is simply - Yes.

I would look into both for sure before making any purchases. Most DTC brands have some type of Demo Program that let's you test out a club or two to get a feel for it. Others have fitters around the country that carry their clubs, so you can get fit for them. If you know your shaft needs, it's easier to grab something DTC since the shaft is the most difficult to fit for and most of us believe it's the most important part.

My entire bag (minus driver) is DTC - Takomo and Sub70. I'll recommend Sub70 over any manufacturer out there, including the big OEM's. You can't beat their service and support. Period. The equipment is also developed in-house and they offer the most customization options of any DTC. They even have more than some OEM's seem to offer. Their price/performance ratio is unmatched, in my opinion. MGS even did a video on it comparing a Callaway Driver to the Sub70 driver.

There are many MGS Forum reviews for DTC clubs. Putters, wedges, irons, woods, drivers, etc. that might be a good place to start if you're thinking about it. Start with the final reviews on the first page and go from there.

My bag is changing to add Mizuno irons and Vokey wedges, but the Sub70 woods, hybrids, and putter aren't going anywhere just yet.

[scubahoops]

On 6/4/2024 at 9:48 AM, Steven Senft said:

That's literally why I am having this discussion in my head. A DTC option seems like the "new" wave, but it's hard to pull the trigger when you can't trust the brand or test a club... I know there are demo programs for RAM, SUB70, and others, but that already feels like a commitment. 

So when I was in your spot a little over a year ago I did a lot of research on clubs and different DTC brands and the biggest reason I went to Sub70 is because their demo program is the best. You select your irons and then they send you a 6 and 9 to try and then you ship them back, the whole thing does cost $20 for shipping ($220 deposit and $200 is refunded once they get the clubs back) but in my opinion it is well worth it to try them out.  If you like them then you place an order and they provide more options for customization than any other DTC brand that I am aware of. You do need to know your set up and they take care of the rest. The best part is that after you receive your custom clubs, you still have 60 to use them and make sure you like them, if not send them back for a refund.  The other DTC brands are much more challenging to demo and if you customize them then some won't take them back or if they do they only give you a partial refund. 

So to demo Sub70 is a $20 commitment, not too bad if you ask me.  

Also, I have purchased a number of additional clubs from their Used section where some clubs are sold that are made and returned and I have gotten even better deals. I started with 699 irons 5-PW, then added a 699 Pro GW, then a 4 Utility iron, and a 949X 4 wood and now wedges and even a putter. I am now on to my second set of irons going from the 699 game improvement irons to the 639 CB forged irons as my game improved.  I love with their pricing I can buy and try them and not feel bad if I keep a wedge or putter and don't use it every round. I swap some wedges in and out depending on playing conditions.

I really like the 4 wood but the one place I am hesitant is the driver. I hit a driver that was a trade in at a local store and the shaft wasn't right for me but I wanted to try it anyway and it wasn't for me.  That is where in my opinion the big brands have a technology and R&D difference you can see and feel compared to the DTC brands. Sub70 does do R&D work and you can see that based on their club offerings, but they can't match the budget of the big brands. Now with that said they are supposed to be debuting a new driver soon that they say is on par with the big guys and I am very excited to see what happens.

[RetiredBoomer]

On 6/2/2023 at 11:03 AM, Steven Senft said:

I have been searching for the most "responsible" and "real" answers, but the internet can be a dark place, so let's have the conversation here.

When you are in the market for a new set of irons, would you consider DTC brands (Takomo, Caley, Haywood, RAM, PXG, etc.) or just the "big brands" (Titleist, Mizuno, Taylormade, etc.)? 

Also, reading through some of the material I found, DTC brands all come from the same "factory"? Haywood, RAM, Caley and Takomo sets look identical... any ideas as to which one you would go for?

Thanks!

I've played nothing but major brand irons
going back to brands that were once very major but now aren't. 

There is one thing that would get me to try an alternate brand, however, and that's if they would offer one thing that the major OEMs refuse to do.

For years, I've wanted a good set of irons made in five degree increment gaps.
25° 5-iron to 45° 9-iron.

Current gapping makes it difficult for me to configure a set in only fourteen clubs.
I'm always missing something that I need unless I fill every slot in my 15-club cart bag.

5º iron gapping would not only solve that problem, but it would also work for my game.
Bending clubs doesn't work for me.  I want clubs made as I want them, but it doesn't look like I'll ever have them.,
 

 

[Steven Senft]

Interesting... would you consider any of the high-end 3d printed brands? The one Bryson just had, and COBRA just made a set.....

 

 

[theblake7]

On 6/10/2024 at 6:52 AM, RetiredBoomer said:

 

There is one thing that would get me to try an alternate brand, however, and that's if they would offer one thing that the major OEMs refuse to do.

For years, I've wanted a good set of irons made in five degree increment gaps.
25° 5-iron to 45° 9-iron.

Current gapping makes it difficult for me to configure a set in only fourteen clubs.
I'm always missing something that I need unless I fill every slot in my 15-club cart bag.

5º iron gapping would not only solve that problem, but it would also work for my game.
Bending clubs doesn't work for me.  I want clubs made as I want them, but it doesn't look like I'll ever have them.,
 

 

I hear ya,  I want a set with 5 or 6 degree gaps too   - we used to be able to buy sets with 8 degree gaps remember     The short hitter does not need a full complement of irons,    a 2/3's set would be ideal for many.

Sadly no DTC would dare do larger gaps (nor weaker lofts) , their market position isnt strong enough and the consumer in general wont tolerate a brand if some of the irons wont go far enough.

We could try make up a set with 5 degree gaps,  but it will result in having to bend one or two heads too much, changing bounce and offset, and you mignt also need to skip two clubs, say 5 and 8. Then might need to look at club length increments too.

 

 

 

[theblake7]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:20 AM, HikingMike said:

 

I guess there is a cool factor too... you might like their Youtube marketers or something, or you can have the unique clubs none of your buddies have seen yet, nifty ferrules, black finish  And you can have some custom specs when ordering, unlike Kmart off-the-shelf. Some would not trade away the rep, engineering, comfort zone of a Big 4/5. Others couldn't care less. 

Yeah I wish there were a better way to try them out and get fitted with an expert, on an even footing with something in golf stores. I wonder if it would make sense for an independent golf shop to do something like that. 

Yes, I already have such clubs,  fitted by an independant fitter,  that are unique that none of my buddies have seen,  black finish,  for 1/4 of the price of these DTC's that are suddenly prominent.

Maltby/Golfworks, Wishon et al has been designing clubs for 40+ years, they dont buy off the shelf from chinese open mould factories,  and stick their logo on it.

[Randall Robbins]

Most of the gaps today are 4 degrees, and I'm sure companies could tweak them that one degree if you worked with them.  Or the 8 degree gap can be achieved by, of course, by skipping a club in between.

[bens197]

Among DTC brands I would still rank Ben Hogan atop the list…

Their demo program will help assuage some concerns if you’re not 100% sure about spending $ sight unseen.

If you have some basic golf club knowledge, I would also steer you towards the Golf Works and check out the Maltby line.  @azstu324 among others has some wonderful experience with these lines.

From my own personal experience, I have played both the Maltby TS1 and the Ben Hogan PTx combo…both are legitimate quality sets that you would enjoy.

[KC Golf]

I was always OEM, but then during the pandemic, when OEM was hard to order went to DTC.  Really impressed with the quality of DTC.  The club sets I got were great.  My current Takomos are great too.  I think demo is an issue.  But many DTC offer fittings at certain club fitters, but you have to search it out.  I’m a big DTC iron guy now.

My only caution is that some DTC clubs seem to have hot spots.  So you can end up being unexpectedly long on certain full swing shots.