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Spin vs Aerodynamics for Wind Performance


ZackS

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Maybe this has been discussed or testing but didn't see it. As I have been looking at the new Snell MTB Prime and Prime X. They say the Prime is higher spin with aerodynamics for lower flight and the Prime X is lower spin with aerodynamics for higher flight. The reasoning to match aerodynamics with spin profile to optimize distance makes since. What I am wondering is for wind performance which would be more important, the aerodynamics or spin to keep it down and cut through the wind. 

WITB:

Driver: Titleist TSR3 :titleist-small: with TPT Nitro 15Hi 

5 wood: Calloway Paradym Triple Diamond :callaway-small: with TPT Power 15Lo

Driving Iron: Tour Edge Exotics EXS Ti-Utility :tour-edge:

Hybrid: PXG 0317X Gen2 hybrid :PXG: with TPT Power 15Lo

Irons: Takomo 101T :Takomo: with Nippon Modus 120 shafts :Nippon:

Wedges: Celveland RTX4 50 Degree, Calloway Jaws Raw 58 degree Z grind and 54 degree S grind

Putter: Edel EAS 4.0 :edel-golf-1:

Ball: Srixon Z Star Diamond / Z Star XV :srixon-small:

Official 2024 TPT Shaft Test

 

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36 minutes ago, ZackS said:

Maybe this has been discussed or testing but didn't see it. As I have been looking at the new Snell MTB Prime and Prime X. They say the Prime is higher spin with aerodynamics for lower flight and the Prime X is lower spin with aerodynamics for higher flight. The reasoning to match aerodynamics with spin profile to optimize distance makes since. What I am wondering is for wind performance which would be more important, the aerodynamics or spin to keep it down and cut through the wind. 

I think it is a combination of both and ties to how you launch the ball.  Basically you have to find the balance point which is different for each golfer.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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For wind play you need to control spin. The good players do this well even with higher spin balls thru swing technique and club selection. The not so good players will struggle regardless of low or high spin ball.

Some balls will perform better overall than others by their design. Example in my titleist ball fitting when we talked win play even though the prov1 and 1x are currently very close in spin the fitter said the prov1 for me will be a better option in the wind.

Im someone who needs some extra spin on driver. The two determining factors for prov1 over 1x for me were wind play and sound/feel on the greens

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I think it is a combination of both and ties to how you launch the ball.  Basically you have to find the balance point which is different for each golfer.  

Totally agree it's probably a balance and will be a different balance for each golfer. As a nerd I am curious which might have more effect if any. Let's just say if you have 2 balls with robot testing that with these 2 different profiles that end with the same peak hight and landing angle with no wind. Then you test then into a 20 mph wind what would the results be. I will probably never get that exact test but I can dream, haha.

WITB:

Driver: Titleist TSR3 :titleist-small: with TPT Nitro 15Hi 

5 wood: Calloway Paradym Triple Diamond :callaway-small: with TPT Power 15Lo

Driving Iron: Tour Edge Exotics EXS Ti-Utility :tour-edge:

Hybrid: PXG 0317X Gen2 hybrid :PXG: with TPT Power 15Lo

Irons: Takomo 101T :Takomo: with Nippon Modus 120 shafts :Nippon:

Wedges: Celveland RTX4 50 Degree, Calloway Jaws Raw 58 degree Z grind and 54 degree S grind

Putter: Edel EAS 4.0 :edel-golf-1:

Ball: Srixon Z Star Diamond / Z Star XV :srixon-small:

Official 2024 TPT Shaft Test

 

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5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

For wind play you need to control spin. The good players do this well even with higher spin balls thru swing technique and club selection. The not so good players will struggle regardless of low or high spin ball.

Some balls will perform better overall than others by their design. Example in my titleist ball fitting when we talked win play even though the prov1 and 1x are currently very close in spin the fitter said the prov1 for me will be a better option in the wind.

Im someone who needs some extra spin on driver. The two determining factors for prov1 over 1x for me were wind play and sound/feel on the greens

So true, my problem is what I do to lower the launch also increases my spin. I just need AI to fix it for me, haha. 

WITB:

Driver: Titleist TSR3 :titleist-small: with TPT Nitro 15Hi 

5 wood: Calloway Paradym Triple Diamond :callaway-small: with TPT Power 15Lo

Driving Iron: Tour Edge Exotics EXS Ti-Utility :tour-edge:

Hybrid: PXG 0317X Gen2 hybrid :PXG: with TPT Power 15Lo

Irons: Takomo 101T :Takomo: with Nippon Modus 120 shafts :Nippon:

Wedges: Celveland RTX4 50 Degree, Calloway Jaws Raw 58 degree Z grind and 54 degree S grind

Putter: Edel EAS 4.0 :edel-golf-1:

Ball: Srixon Z Star Diamond / Z Star XV :srixon-small:

Official 2024 TPT Shaft Test

 

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6 minutes ago, ZackS said:

Totally agree it's probably a balance and will be a different balance for each golfer. As a nerd I am curious which might have more effect if any. Let's just say if you have 2 balls with robot testing that with these 2 different profiles that end with the same peak hight and landing angle with no wind. Then you test then into a 20 mph wind what would the results be. I will probably never get that exact test but I can dream, haha.

The MGS ball test is probably the closest you will come.  Based on your scenario my thought would be aerodynamics as that is the feature the helps maintain the spin and trajectory of the ball as it moves through the air/wind.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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11 minutes ago, ZackS said:

Totally agree it's probably a balance and will be a different balance for each golfer. As a nerd I am curious which might have more effect if any. Let's just say if you have 2 balls with robot testing that with these 2 different profiles that end with the same peak hight and landing angle with no wind. Then you test then into a 20 mph wind what would the results be. I will probably never get that exact test but I can dream, haha.

Plug the spin numbers from the ball test into Flightscope Trajectory optimizer. Then experiment with wind and see what the effect is. Use launch angle to try and match the different peak heights. It's won't be 100% but it will be close. If you have the same peak height and land angle the lower spin ball will be less impacted by headwind. That is physics. 

 

:ping-small: G425 MAX Driver & 5W

:cobra-small: Baffler Rail-H 3H-4H

:Sub70: 699 Pro Utility V2 - 4i

:callaway-small: APEX CF19 6-AW

INDI Wedges 52, 56, 60 

 :edel-golf-1: EAS 2.0

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8 minutes ago, ZackS said:

So true, my problem is what I do to lower the launch also increases my spin. I just need AI to fix it for me, haha. 

You can lower launch with our increasing spin. Flighting iron shots allows both to be lowered. The problem most have is they try to lower launch but still swing hard which is going to add spin.

One can hit a lower flighted driver without adding spin. Contact above the cg is going to keep spin down. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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My first thought would be aerodynamics as well since the factor that changes is the speed of the air/wind. I am sure aerodynamics probably has more effect in humid environments as well since the air is denser.

WITB:

Driver: Titleist TSR3 :titleist-small: with TPT Nitro 15Hi 

5 wood: Calloway Paradym Triple Diamond :callaway-small: with TPT Power 15Lo

Driving Iron: Tour Edge Exotics EXS Ti-Utility :tour-edge:

Hybrid: PXG 0317X Gen2 hybrid :PXG: with TPT Power 15Lo

Irons: Takomo 101T :Takomo: with Nippon Modus 120 shafts :Nippon:

Wedges: Celveland RTX4 50 Degree, Calloway Jaws Raw 58 degree Z grind and 54 degree S grind

Putter: Edel EAS 4.0 :edel-golf-1:

Ball: Srixon Z Star Diamond / Z Star XV :srixon-small:

Official 2024 TPT Shaft Test

 

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6 hours ago, ZackS said:

Let's just say if you have 2 balls with robot testing that with these 2 different profiles that end with the same peak hight and landing angle with no wind. Then you test then into a 20 mph wind what would the results be. I will probably never get that exact test but I can dream, haha.

Same peak height, same landing angle, but different spin? The higher spin ball is more affected by wind. But the problem with your hypothesis is that they're not going to have the same peak height and same landing angle. If they have the same peak height, one is going to have a steeper landing angle. If they have the same landing angle, they're going to have different peak heights.

Driver: :srixon-small: ZX5 LS MkII 9.5* (@ 9.0*) with 46.5" Ventus Blue 6X
3-wood: :taylormade-small: SIM 15* with Diamana Limited 75S
5-wood: :cobra-small: RADspeed 18.5* with Motore X F3 60S
2i: :srixon-small: ZX with SteelFiber i95 Stiff

4hy: :titleist-small: TS3 23* with Tensei AV Blue 70 S
4i-7i :srixon-small: ZX7, 8i-PW Z-Forged, Modus3 Tour 120 S
50*, 55* :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Modus3 Tour 125
60* :cleveland-small: RTX Full Face ZipCore DG Spinner S400
Putter: :callaway-small: Toulon Chicago with a :garsen: Quad Tour or :cleveland-small: HB SOFT Milled 10.5S with UST All-in

Ball: :callaway-small: Chrome Tour (but I might still have some :titleist-small: Left Dashes hanging around)
Bag: :srixon-small: Ltd Edition Tartan, blue/green/yellow

Using :ShotScope: to keep track of my shots

Tested:
:wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged 3i-PW, KBS Tour-V 110S - Official Review
:titelist-small: Blind Ball Test (Ball #3 vs Ball #4) - Unofficial Review
:ShotScope:
 V3 GPS Watch + Tags - Official Review
:OnCore:
 Vero X2 - Official Review

The Stack System - Official Review

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24 minutes ago, GregGarner said:

Same peak height, same landing angle, but different spin? The higher spin ball is more affected by wind. But the problem with your hypothesis is that they're not going to have the same peak height and same landing angle. If they have the same peak height, one is going to have a steeper landing angle. If they have the same landing angle, they're going to have different peak heights.

I guess you are right as if peak height is the same the ball with more spin would reach it peak further down range and would fall straighter down. But I am not confident with the effect of the wind since aerodynamics would play into that as much or more than spin rate. I guess the question would be which aerodynamic profile has less drag. 

WITB:

Driver: Titleist TSR3 :titleist-small: with TPT Nitro 15Hi 

5 wood: Calloway Paradym Triple Diamond :callaway-small: with TPT Power 15Lo

Driving Iron: Tour Edge Exotics EXS Ti-Utility :tour-edge:

Hybrid: PXG 0317X Gen2 hybrid :PXG: with TPT Power 15Lo

Irons: Takomo 101T :Takomo: with Nippon Modus 120 shafts :Nippon:

Wedges: Celveland RTX4 50 Degree, Calloway Jaws Raw 58 degree Z grind and 54 degree S grind

Putter: Edel EAS 4.0 :edel-golf-1:

Ball: Srixon Z Star Diamond / Z Star XV :srixon-small:

Official 2024 TPT Shaft Test

 

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15 minutes ago, ZackS said:

I guess you are right as if peak height is the same the ball with more spin would reach it peak further down range and would fall straighter down. But I am not confident with the effect of the wind since aerodynamics would play into that as much or more than spin rate. I guess the question would be which aerodynamic profile has less drag. 

Ah, I see what you mean. The aero package (read: dimples) influences lift and drag and spin alters the frequency at which those lift/drag properties interface with air. So I don't think you can separate the two. Identical aero packages at different spin rates, obviously spin makes the difference. Different aero packages at the same spin rate, obviously it will change how the ball flies. The AVX is my go-to example for an extreme aero package because the ball was built to be SO low-spin that they needed a dimple design just to keep the ball in the air (shallower dimples fly higher than deeper ones, all else being equal)

Driver: :srixon-small: ZX5 LS MkII 9.5* (@ 9.0*) with 46.5" Ventus Blue 6X
3-wood: :taylormade-small: SIM 15* with Diamana Limited 75S
5-wood: :cobra-small: RADspeed 18.5* with Motore X F3 60S
2i: :srixon-small: ZX with SteelFiber i95 Stiff

4hy: :titleist-small: TS3 23* with Tensei AV Blue 70 S
4i-7i :srixon-small: ZX7, 8i-PW Z-Forged, Modus3 Tour 120 S
50*, 55* :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Modus3 Tour 125
60* :cleveland-small: RTX Full Face ZipCore DG Spinner S400
Putter: :callaway-small: Toulon Chicago with a :garsen: Quad Tour or :cleveland-small: HB SOFT Milled 10.5S with UST All-in

Ball: :callaway-small: Chrome Tour (but I might still have some :titleist-small: Left Dashes hanging around)
Bag: :srixon-small: Ltd Edition Tartan, blue/green/yellow

Using :ShotScope: to keep track of my shots

Tested:
:wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged 3i-PW, KBS Tour-V 110S - Official Review
:titelist-small: Blind Ball Test (Ball #3 vs Ball #4) - Unofficial Review
:ShotScope:
 V3 GPS Watch + Tags - Official Review
:OnCore:
 Vero X2 - Official Review

The Stack System - Official Review

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Good to know about dimple depth. I wasn’t aware of that but makes since as the pictures of the 2 Snell balls you can tell the Prime dimples are sharper and deeper. 

WITB:

Driver: Titleist TSR3 :titleist-small: with TPT Nitro 15Hi 

5 wood: Calloway Paradym Triple Diamond :callaway-small: with TPT Power 15Lo

Driving Iron: Tour Edge Exotics EXS Ti-Utility :tour-edge:

Hybrid: PXG 0317X Gen2 hybrid :PXG: with TPT Power 15Lo

Irons: Takomo 101T :Takomo: with Nippon Modus 120 shafts :Nippon:

Wedges: Celveland RTX4 50 Degree, Calloway Jaws Raw 58 degree Z grind and 54 degree S grind

Putter: Edel EAS 4.0 :edel-golf-1:

Ball: Srixon Z Star Diamond / Z Star XV :srixon-small:

Official 2024 TPT Shaft Test

 

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