Driver Yips

[BMart519]

I don't know exactly what classifies as "yips" with the big stick. But I think I am displaying some symptoms... Swing speed is 100-105 on course. Regularly get up to 107 on monitors indoors. 

I have been hitting low pulls and wipey fades over the past month that are well below normal ball flight usually in the 200-220 window. Tried some speed training drills into net in garage and reached 163 MPH ball speed which is 2 MPH below my all time high, so the speed is still there... Went in for a lesson, adjusted grip weaker and ball position forward to how I started the season when hitting well and was hitting normal carry distances around 250-260. Had range session later in the week, experimented with shorter shaft in driver and compared accuracy to gamer. Was routinely carrying 240ish with range balls bouncing into net at 250 with high fade and measured accuracy to determine proper start lines to accommodate fade based on drills in Adam Young's Accuracy Plan and try to hone aiming for tee shots.

Warmed up for most recent round and was hitting normal fade shape on range, a bit lower than usual but cannot adjust tee height on mats. Course is short, tight, and tree lined so really only needed driver once and 200 yard low pull that clipped a branch. It feels to me like I am not releasing the club on course, shifting toward target on downswing and trapping it with my standard out to in path after having a period of huge slices earlier in the year. 

Has anyone had similar issues? What were some keys or swing thoughts you used to really go after the ball? 

Edited September 7 by BMart519

[Shapotomous]

I sometimes get a case of the low snappers.  Usually its because i am not pivoting my trail hip and my swing is mostly all arms and over the top. 

To get out of the funk i focus on pivoting my trail hip back and getting my lead shoulder to my chin on the backswing.  I dont think about anything on the transition or downswing then finish with my hands as high as i can.

It is ironic that when i am under a tree and need to play that exact low hooky ball flight i struggle to hook it enough!  

I hope this helps, i know it can be frustrating.

[RickyBobby_PR]

My guess is you are getting the club out of position early and possibly rolling to the inside and your compensation is to be more over the top than normal. Possibly hips moving incorrectly at the start of the swing
 

There are a lot things that could be causing this, but hard to say without a seeing a swing.

[cksurfdude]

I'm not one to give swing advice, but will pass on what I keep trying to remind myself of...

* Hit it better not harder.

For me, when I *slow down* and try to pay attention to making a better swing .. then I generally see a better result...

YMMV of course.

[BMart519]

12 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

My guess is you are getting the club out of position early and possibly rolling to the inside and your compensation is to be more over the top than normal. Possibly hips moving incorrectly at the start of the swing
 

There are a lot things that could be causing this, but hard to say without a seeing a swing.

I am going to try and get a few swings filmed on course to see if there are differences while playing that reflect the change in ball flight versus practicing indoors or outside. Working with my instructor indoor on trackman and camera, he was very happy with my position at top of backswing and felt it was probably the best in our 2+ years of working together. 

[Goober]

I was a chronic snap hooker.Massive inside out with a closed clubface=left city.The snipe left would always strike me at least once a round.And it would be a struggle salvaging even a bogey.The biggest change I made was a swing path change from in to out.To a now in to in path.Still a work in progress after attending 2 tour striker academy classes.So far this season I’ve only hit 5 of those quackers all season.Which is a big improvement for me.Fixing path was a must for me.Pretty much a change in how my mind interpreted what an proper incline downswing should feel like.It’s amazing what you “feel” is correct.Isn’t always the proper way  

[BMart519]

I decided on a more reasonable course of action to deal with this issue -> new driver, obviously. 

First round out with Ping G425 Max yesterday was a great trial (in a scramble). When we didn't need any more of the tee shots by the end, I was confident enough to be varying trajectory to go over trees which lead to some bombs when hit at what is a more appropriate trajectory for my speed. We'll see how long the honeymoon period lasts, but the forgiveness and ball speed consistency is unbelievable. Hit 2 bad drives: 1 wipey heel cut that curved back into the fairway and ended up 220 and a low pull that ran through the trees and into the rough on an adjacent hole. Both allowed for clear shots into the green and the team used more of my drives than anyone else after hitting driver on 13 holes and trying to feed it into narrow areas between trees and water hazards with the amount of control I was feeling with the club. 

First actual round tomorrow with a bit more pressure and then 1 more possible range session before the most anticipated golf trip of my life (which drove the purchase after months of struggles). Used it indoors one night to get used to the feel, 90% of shots were within a 10 yard range of carry distance. The MOI is so high it is hard to zero in on where exactly you are striking it as balls don't always leave a well defined mark like on the milled Cobra driver faces. So it can be tough to know how to adjust contact from bad impact. But it is a bit easier on course vs into a net when you can see start line and curvature. 

This wasn't a totally random purchase, the 410 (too spinny) was the runner up to my long time gamer Cobra F9 in fittings and the G425 LST also matched the F9 in performance. I hit the G430 Max to assess shafts and see if it still worked for me and then got a comparable G425 max for half the price of 430. The new club plays 46" which is 3/4" longer than my gamer and so far the added heft feels like it helps combat my tendency to make a quick upper body swing and not use my legs. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

The MOI is so high it is hard to zero in on where exactly you are striking it as balls don't always leave a well defined mark like on the milled Cobra driver faces. So it can be tough to know how to adjust contact from bad impact. But it is a bit easier on course vs into a net when you can see start line and curvature. 

Spray the face with foot spray or put a piece of tape on it. 

[jdparker]

The driver yips.... oh this topic is at the forefront these days!  I had several days of striping the driver at the range and great launch and distance and then I get out to the course and can't hit it to save my life.  I seem to have multiple issues going on with it.... I fix one item and the next rears its ugly head.  When I was playing all the time and low single digits, I played an old school 2 iron off the tee.  I knew long par 5's were 3 shots but had the confidence to play it that way and was long enough with it on par 4's to have a mid iron into the green.  I have worked on driver for what seems like years, finally got fitted and hit the club well then but haven't been able to sort it out since.  I am honestly about to just start over with the driver again and go back to starting fresh.  Leave it at the house on rounds and just play without until I can be consistent with it.  

[BMart519]

On 9/15/2023 at 4:43 PM, jdparker said:

The driver yips.... oh this topic is at the forefront these days!  I had several days of striping the driver at the range and great launch and distance and then I get out to the course and can't hit it to save my life.  I seem to have multiple issues going on with it.... I fix one item and the next rears its ugly head.  When I was playing all the time and low single digits, I played an old school 2 iron off the tee.  I knew long par 5's were 3 shots but had the confidence to play it that way and was long enough with it on par 4's to have a mid iron into the green.  I have worked on driver for what seems like years, finally got fitted and hit the club well then but haven't been able to sort it out since.  I am honestly about to just start over with the driver again and go back to starting fresh.  Leave it at the house on rounds and just play without until I can be consistent with it.  

I would recommend testing one of the PING max models. It takes a really bad swing to put you into trouble. I am now in the process of adjusting for less fade when I aim off the tee as it is so straight. The difference in confidence overnight is staggering. Once you've been fitted and know what weight and family of shaft works for you (low, mid or high) it is easy enough to find a no upcharge shaft in a head you want to test. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

12 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

I would recommend testing one of the PING max models. It takes a really bad swing to put you into trouble. I am now in the process of adjusting for less fade when I aim off the tee as it is so straight. The difference in confidence overnight is staggering. Once you've been fitted and know what weight and family of shaft works for you (low, mid or high) it is easy enough to find a no upcharge shaft in a head you want to test. 

interesting as my playing partner yesterday joked with me that I should get a ping to just hit the ball dead straight at my speed. How much is the distance loss through from a ping Max to say a callaway Max LS?

[twyatt700]

6 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

interesting as my playing partner yesterday joked with me that I should get a ping to just hit the ball dead straight at my speed. How much is the distance loss through from a ping Max to say a callaway Max LS?

Not as much as you'd think... plus it doesn't get knocked down by the trees 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

2 minutes ago, twyatt700 said:

Not as much as you'd think... plus it doesn't get knocked down by the trees 

we may need to meet you and let me test yours  

[BMart519]

15 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

interesting as my playing partner yesterday joked with me that I should get a ping to just hit the ball dead straight at my speed. How much is the distance loss through from a ping Max to say a callaway Max LS?

I've played an LTDx LS all year, which is the longest driver according to MGS for 2022 and I was mashing it in May and June as documented in my Top Speed Golf - 20 Minute Distance Fix training post hitting at least one drive 320 in multiple rounds when I was getting around 110 MPH in firm conditions (hitting with full intent and minimal concern for direction which did drop me to a lowest ever index of 9.2). After some poor performances, a fade biased drive became difficult to aim (identified by instructor) and commit to for someone who's miss is a slice. In my instance, a PING with draw bias that sits closed is easier to aim, swing on plane and release. Shot Scope driving distance is longer than my target at 5 index even with my struggles this season, in May/June it was around a scratch benchmark so I can afford to drop 5 yards. Fairways have always been below my current index or lower targets, I am hoping the PING improves that statistic as well because even though fairways hit does not correlate well with total score and "modern stats" - Shot Scope clearly shows that I score 0.3-0.5 shots lower per hole from the fairway vs rough  and my penalty rate is too high. I am already defaulting to driver (honeymoon period) on holes where it was easy for me to drop down to hybrid in the hopes of hitting it straighter if driver was off. As well as aiming fades at and above trees because the results are more consistent. 

If you go into the 2022 driver data you can filter by swing speed in 10 MPH increments and attack angle between negative, neutral and positive. When I checked my speed for both neutral and positive it was around 5 yards versus longest (carry) maybe approaching 10 in certain scenarios. Playing in the PNW, some higher spin and likely carry would be a benefit for you over total yardage given your conditions.

The only loss vs low spin heads is on perfect strikes where the forward CG will bump ball speed and you may be able to swing a 440cc head faster... Your average will likely be higher as the ball flies straighter with mishits on a higher MOI head, and it helps offset a slice. I played it in a scramble and hit it past my teammate (who swings 5-10 mph faster) on a few occasions when he didn't catch it perfect for 2 reasons: I got more roll from being in the fairway all day versus when he would land or roll into rough, his ball had more curvature in air and on ground and mine was straighter (Left Dash also helps ). I've also been able to alter trajectory with the PING using intent to swing more up or neutral. HOT TAKE: 5-10 yards on your best strikes is probably a lot less benefit from the fairway than a narrower dispersion and great distance on mishits (provided they stay in play). I started the year thinking the opposite: the bigger ball speed and distance drop on mishits with a low spin head would keep the ball closer to center on poor strikes and away from OB. So far the straighter average flight and ball speed retention across the face is outweighing top end performance. 

I hit my longest drive (294) since July 8 yesterday and another with 10-20 yards of "fade" that ended 275 in the fairway (usually top out around 107 MPH on course). Depending on attack angle, the Ping looks 200-400 rpm higher than the low spin heads in the 2022 MGS data which finalized my decision not to spend double on a G430 after testing it last week. 200-400 revs is a very small effect on distance and easy to recover through better average numbers on straighter shots and higher ball speeds off center (or possibly, a lower spin ball). The Most Wanted testing weights distance as the strongest category for drivers and the G425 won overall while being around average or slightly below in that category which speaks volumes about its accuracy and forgiveness performance. It also beat the 430 in BOTH of these categories this year. Finding one secondhand for $295 USD with a shaft that works for me made it a low risk experiment as I can probably resell it next year for the same price. 

The G400 Max seems to hold a place in the golf forum hall of fame and I think the G425 is better due to the adjustability and lower spin on average (couldn't care less about sound). The majority of reviews I found online comparing the 400, 410, and 425 show spin to drop over each series which should help distance. There are Youtube reviews showing the 425 as both lower and higher spin than the 430 series, including one saying the top of the G425 face spins less (cuz Spinsistency ). I try to favor high clubface to increase launch angle and drop spin. So the G425 may have a higher max distance in this scenario than the G430 anyway. The higher forgiveness AND accuracy score vs the G430 in the 2023 MGS test makes me think the lighter adjustable weight or other changes for the acoustics were made at a small hit to MOI. The 430 was awesome in testing, which made me believe the 425 would work and was previously fit into a 425 LST. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

3 hours ago, BMart519 said:

I've played an LTDx LS all year, which is the longest driver according to MGS for 2022 and I was mashing it in May and June as documented in my Top Speed Golf - 20 Minute Distance Fix training post hitting at least one drive 320 in multiple rounds when I was getting around 110 MPH in firm conditions (hitting with full intent and minimal concern for direction which did drop me to a lowest ever index of 9.2). After some poor performances, a fade biased drive became difficult to aim (identified by instructor) and commit to for someone who's miss is a slice. In my instance, a PING with draw bias that sits closed is easier to aim, swing on plane and release. Shot Scope driving distance is longer than my target at 5 index even with my struggles this season, in May/June it was around a scratch benchmark so I can afford to drop 5 yards. Fairways have always been below my current index or lower targets, I am hoping the PING improves that statistic as well because even though fairways hit does not correlate well with total score and "modern stats" - Shot Scope clearly shows that I score 0.3-0.5 shots lower per hole from the fairway vs rough  and my penalty rate is too high. I am already defaulting to driver (honeymoon period) on holes where it was easy for me to drop down to hybrid in the hopes of hitting it straighter if driver was off. As well as aiming fades at and above trees because the results are more consistent. 

If you go into the 2022 driver data you can filter by swing speed in 10 MPH increments and attack angle between negative, neutral and positive. When I checked my speed for both neutral and positive it was around 5 yards versus longest (carry) maybe approaching 10 in certain scenarios. Playing in the PNW, some higher spin and likely carry would be a benefit for you over total yardage given your conditions.

The only loss vs low spin heads is on perfect strikes where the forward CG will bump ball speed and you may be able to swing a 440cc head faster... Your average will likely be higher as the ball flies straighter with mishits on a higher MOI head, and it helps offset a slice. I played it in a scramble and hit it past my teammate (who swings 5-10 mph faster) on a few occasions when he didn't catch it perfect for 2 reasons: I got more roll from being in the fairway all day versus when he would land or roll into rough, his ball had more curvature in air and on ground and mine was straighter (Left Dash also helps ). I've also been able to alter trajectory with the PING using intent to swing more up or neutral. HOT TAKE: 5-10 yards on your best strikes is probably a lot less benefit from the fairway than a narrower dispersion and great distance on mishits (provided they stay in play). I started the year thinking the opposite: the bigger ball speed and distance drop on mishits with a low spin head would keep the ball closer to center on poor strikes and away from OB. So far the straighter average flight and ball speed retention across the face is outweighing top end performance. 

I hit my longest drive (294) since July 8 yesterday and another with 10-20 yards of "fade" that ended 275 in the fairway (usually top out around 107 MPH on course). Depending on attack angle, the Ping looks 200-400 rpm higher than the low spin heads in the 2022 MGS data which finalized my decision not to spend double on a G430 after testing it last week. 200-400 revs is a very small effect on distance and easy to recover through better average numbers on straighter shots and higher ball speeds off center (or possibly, a lower spin ball). The Most Wanted testing weights distance as the strongest category for drivers and the G425 won overall while being around average or slightly below in that category which speaks volumes about its accuracy and forgiveness performance. It also beat the 430 in BOTH of these categories this year. Finding one secondhand for $295 USD with a shaft that works for me made it a low risk experiment as I can probably resell it next year for the same price. 

The G400 Max seems to hold a place in the golf forum hall of fame and I think the G425 is better due to the adjustability and lower spin on average (couldn't care less about sound). The majority of reviews I found online comparing the 400, 410, and 425 show spin to drop over each series which should help distance. There are Youtube reviews showing the 425 as both lower and higher spin than the 430 series, including one saying the top of the G425 face spins less (cuz Spinsistency ). I try to favor high clubface to increase launch angle and drop spin. So the G425 may have a higher max distance in this scenario than the G430 anyway. The higher forgiveness AND accuracy score vs the G430 in the 2023 MGS test makes me think the lighter adjustable weight or other changes for the acoustics were made at a small hit to MOI. The 430 was awesome in testing, which made me believe the 425 would work and was previously fit into a 425 LST. 

ya, that price it about what I can find for a head now and I can't actually find one with a low/low shaft that would suit me. I will hold tight as altering loft on my driver has really helped and has overall given me more carry.

[twyatt700]

22 hours ago, BMart519 said:

It also beat the 430 in BOTH of these categories this year. Finding one secondhand for $295 USD with a shaft that works for me made it a low risk experiment as I can probably resell it next year for the same price. 

I still went with the 430 lol- but I can attest- coming form the Sim 2 this thing is super straight and still gets it out there a decent bit. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 9/18/2023 at 12:39 PM, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

interesting as my playing partner yesterday joked with me that I should get a ping to just hit the ball dead straight at my speed. How much is the distance loss through from a ping Max to say a callaway Max LS?

Distance loss or gain doesn’t come just from a head. It’s the launch characteristics created by the golfer swinging the club. On any driver head moving the ball 1/8” will change spin by240rpm and launch by .35°.

Dial in the driver to get the ball consistently launching and spinning properly. Now what will probably change is the amount of spin generated by contact in the same point on a face due to face design, where cog is placed.

Pings heads are typically heavier than other brands. That works for some people and not for others. I’ve watched enough fittings that Ping while it’s a great head isn’t the end all be all. I’ve seen TSR best out ping and tm, I’ve seen Srixon outperform Ping. I’ve seen Ping beat out all the brands. I’ve seen Callaway create more ball speed than tm, Titlest and Ping with same shaft and same overall weight of the drivers being equal. My fitter hits the Callaway 5-10 yards further than the rest of the drivers with launch and spin being within a 200-300 rpm difference and launch within 1°

when contact is scatter all over the face is going to see inconsistent distances and ball flights 

[BMart519]

Just like weight and head size, MOI is a physical parameter of a driver head. The resistance to twisting and ball speed retention across the face will be greater on high MOI heads vs low, there's a reason why MOI has a limit just like COR/CT on head design. Higher MOI typically leads to higher spin because of CG location, but modern drivers have come a long way in neutralizing this along with lower spinning balls. So that major downside has been reduced. Some people will find it more difficult to close a rear weighted head because the CG is farther from the shaft axis. Back and forward CG heads feel very different on impact, this has no effect on my game or sound/feel. 

Certain heads/shafts don't work for everyone for sure. This is why I included some background on testing a 410 MAX, being fit into a G425 LST, demoing a 430, all of which performed at or close to the level of my ideal fit and suit my miss tendencies. So I based my decision to favor forgiveness and see if it improves my fairways/penalties/accuracy/avg distance at the expense of top end distance. I'm not suggesting everyone should play the highest MOI head on the market. 

Strike for strike, higher MOI will outperform lower MOI on ball speed and usually direction (bulge and roll can come into play here) on impacts away from the sweet spot. It's physics... The 10/20 HCP below is going to have higher average driving distance from a high MOI head vs low, provided both clubs are setup for reasonable launch conditions on good strikes somewhere near the optimal ranges for the golfer based on club head speed and delivery. Just like the average MGS data had it most accurate in '22/23 and amongst the most forgiving. 

[jdparker]

I am taking my son to the driving range after dinner this evening and have been watching some videos on the driver and have a few drills I plan to start working on today.