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Converting Hinge and Hold to a Full Swing and Review of Dante's 4MM


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Hey Golfers,

 

I need some help. As I have posted several times, my game is VERY inconsistent. Either my short game is off, or my long game is off. I was wondering my short game was off this season because it was so good last season. Then after hours on the practice green, I realized what I forgot to do this season! I bought Phil's Secrets of the Short Game DVD last year at the end of the season, and I forgot to watch it before I played this year. Since I only used it for a month last year, it was not ingrained into my memory yet. So, I watched it and my short game improved DRAMATICALLY. Not only has it improved, but it is CONSISTENT. I hit the ball clean and make a good divot each time. Today, I was practicing in my backyard and aimed at a target that was maybe a little over 50 yards. Using my 62 degree, I almost had to do a full swing. What happened? A high trajectory ball with a lot of spin that hit my target. I was shocked! I was never able to hit a target like that, and I was able to do it over and over again. That got me thinking. Would I be able to convert this into a full swing to bring this consistency to my iron game? So I grabbed my 5-iron (which I have never been able to hit) and my 8-iron (my favorite iron). I grabbed some terrible balls I found during my last round and aimed into the woods. I hit three with my 8-iron, expecting low punch shots or to hit it fat. What happened? A great trajectory that flew into the woods STRAIGHT. Then I grabbed my 5-iron, not expecting to do anything. What happened? THE SAME SWING THREE TIMES! I was wondering if anybody else has had experience with the "hinge-and-hold" and trying to convert this to a full swing. The only thing with this is two things. I can't do do it with my hybrids, and my finish is not full. From the naked eye, it looks like its going the same distance or even farther! But the woods is only 60 yards away so, I can't tell if I am hitting my yardages correctly. I am going to the range and/or course tomorrow so I will let you know how it works out. So, the main question again. Has anyone had any experience with this? Any advice? Thanks everyone!

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6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

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I just watched the video of Phil doing this. This "hinge and hold" is basically setting up with the weight on the left side, and setting the wrist early, coming down steeply on the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the ground, and the hold part is stopping the wrist action keeping you from flipping the club head too early.

 

This in the full swing would be a variation of the Stack and Tilt.

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I just watched the video of Phil doing this. This "hinge and hold" is basically setting up with the weight on the left side, and setting the wrist early, coming down steeply on the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the ground, and the hold part is stopping the wrist action keeping you from flipping the club head too early.

 

This in the full swing would be a variation of the Stack and Tilt.

 

Yup, Stack and Tilt actually is a good way to hit short irons, on mid and longer clubs the trajectory might come out too low and lose a lot of power / distance. Try having 60 to 70% on your front leg and hitting a driver, probably won't get real high and not carry very far. The early wrist set thing on wedges is a great thing, might cause some problems on say a driver.

 

You still want to coil on the back leg and keep the wrist set from the top to about thigh high in the downswing then "unwind" the wrists into the back of the ball, impact bag is a most imho, make sure you hit the top of the bag with the shaft first then the head hits the bag. This will keep you from flipping the club as well.

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Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Out of the deep rough, or any rough for that matter, an exaggerated early wrist cock and downward strike on the ball is great, and for some reason, nothing bigger than a 7 iron are what I use all the time.

 

Yesterday, I was 240 yards out in the deep deep rough and thought about this. Unfortunately, I decided to hit a hybrid, because while long, it was rather thin and I was stupid. Well, when I found the ball and had a 220 yard shot, from the deep deep rough but a little bit thicker, I hit my third shot with a wedge to the center of the fairway. Then hit a great fourth shot and 4 feet for par.

 

I tried the Stack and Tilt and had great success with the irons but jmiller is right, I gave up distance on the longer clubs.

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Just went out and played a quick nine and my iron game was AMAZING. Had some problems of the tee, but then I decided to go with a completely different swing with my driver, just to keep my scores low. If I can get out later this week with someone (its supposed to rain all week) I will have them video tape the swing so everyone can see it. Currently, I am very happy.

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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Just went out and played a quick nine and my iron game was AMAZING. Had some problems of the tee, but then I decided to go with a completely different swing with my driver, just to keep my scores low. If I can get out later this week with someone (its supposed to rain all week) I will have them video tape the swing so everyone can see it. Currently, I am very happy.

 

I found a newsletter from Trackman dating back to Jan 2010 might be slightly outdated by now

--> http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter6.pdf

 

Driver is the only club I think that should have a positive angle of attack with the exception of specialty shots. By "specialty" I mean driver off the deck and very low bullets like you would see in The Open Championship in high winds. Everything else is some degree of a negative angle of attack, if you hitting driver off the deck it should be just a longer fairway metal swing type of angle of attack.

 

With that said "hinge and hold" or "stack and tilt" pre-set the weight forward on the front leg and doesn't get much weight back onto the rear leg in the backswing the weight stays mostly forward. This will result into of a lower trajectory because of a steeper angle of attack. I use the method on 1/2 and 3/4 shots a lot of times in wedges and short irons into greens and into the wind shots that I want to make sure go very low in terms of trajectory.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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If you want an instruction book that describes "hinge and hold" for the full swing read this: http://www.amazon.com/Four-Magic-Moves-Winning-Golf/dp/0385477767

 

It was written in 1962 and references players from that era and before, but the instruction is excellent. Absolutely the best instruction book in my library. This book will teach you things about the golf swing you won't learn anywhere else.

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If you want an instruction book that describes "hinge and hold" for the full swing read this: http://www.amazon.com/Four-Magic-Moves-Winning-Golf/dp/0385477767

 

It was written in 1962 and references players from that era and before, but the instruction is excellent. Absolutely the best instruction book in my library. This book will teach you things about the golf swing you won't learn anywhere else.

 

 

Thanks for the recommendation I am going to buy a copy today. And thanks JM for all of the information!

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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If you want an instruction book that describes "hinge and hold" for the full swing read this: http://www.amazon.co...f/dp/0385477767

 

It was written in 1962 and references players from that era and before, but the instruction is excellent. Absolutely the best instruction book in my library. This book will teach you things about the golf swing you won't learn anywhere else.

 

 

That is the Four Magic Moves of golf by Joe Dante. It is not the hinge and hold. I have read this book and have been implementing in my swing since last August. The so called Four Magic Moves are:

  1. Early "Backwards" wrist break to start the back swing.
  2. Spring tension with a straight left wrist and arm at the top.
  3. Lateral hip slide with the head back to start the downswing and allow gravity to start the hands and arms down.
  4. Release the hands late through the ball and turn to a full finish.
    (These may not be the magic moves that someone else lists but these are from my notes to myself on August 4 about what I need to do to implement this swing.)

Other than an early wrist break they are nothing alike. Even then, the 4MM uses a backwards wrist break. This is unlike anything you have ever done. Believe me, it is not something that you can mistake. I carried a grip on a piece of shaft and had to practice this move for weeks before I could do it without crossing my eyes.:blink: To be honest I have not fully implemented this in to my swing and use some parts of it. But it is definately not the hinge and hold.

 

 

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Thanks for the recommendation I am going to buy a copy today. And thanks JM for all of the information!

 

 

The H&H is more of an arm swing. while the 4MM is a body turn and the arms follow. While it may look somewhat simular, you will have a tremendous amount more power with the 4MM. Which is what you want on a full swing but not on a partial swing. When I converted to this, my short game pitches became horrible because the shot that was 30 yards with the H&H became a 55 yard shot with the 4MM. The S&T on the other hand does not incorperate a full body turn and is more of an arm turn, this does not effect the short game as much as going to the 4MM will.

 

 

I will say that there is not quite another feeling in the world like the first time you go to your bread and butter shot of a 30 yard pitch and watch it fly 15 yards dead straight over the flag and not even touch the green. So you go back and try again. And now you fly the green the other way and instead of having your "easy" 4 that you were thinking, you now have a 7. And then that continues for the whole round and you can not figure out how in the check your short game left so soon.

 

I have had to totally revamp my pitches because it was so hard to have "body hit" like the 4MM and an arm hit like the H&H. I can do them all now, but initially it was a huge struggle.

 

I will say that the 4MM is a much better swing than the S&T. The H&H is more of a specialty shot for pitches and punches.

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The H&H is more of an arm swing. while the 4MM is a body turn and the arms follow. While it may look somewhat simular, you will have a tremendous amount more power with the 4MM. Which is what you want on a full swing but not on a partial swing. When I converted to this, my short game pitches became horrible because the shot that was 30 yards with the H&H became a 55 yard shot with the 4MM. The S&T on the other hand does not incorperate a full body turn and is more of an arm turn, this does not effect the short game as much as going to the 4MM will.

 

 

I will say that there is not quite another feeling in the world like the first time you go to your bread and butter shot of a 30 yard pitch and watch it fly 15 yards dead straight over the flag and not even touch the green. So you go back and try again. And now you fly the green the other way and instead of having your "easy" 4 that you were thinking, you now have a 7. And then that continues for the whole round and you can not figure out how in the check your short game left so soon.

 

I have had to totally revamp my pitches because it was so hard to have "body hit" like the 4MM and an arm hit like the H&H. I can do them all now, but initially it was a huge struggle.

 

I will say that the 4MM is a much better swing than the S&T. The H&H is more of a specialty shot for pitches and punches.

 

Do you think I should still buy the book?

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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Do you think I should still buy the book?

 

 

I have the book on my kindle right now, and read part of it last night.:rolleyes:

 

But I just recently downloaded it to that format. Originally I got the information off of the internet. I am not sure if I had it to do over again, I would probably look into the Rotary Swing Training (RST), based on JMillers excellent report on it. He has stated that one of the goals of this method is to preserve the body. The 4MM makes no such effort. I know the initial backwards wrist break putt stress on my elbow. I have had a back problem since 1991, crushed a disc, and while it got progressively worse, and I have no idea if the two are related but it became a serious issue after one month of playing with this swing. Also, the straightening of the left leg is now causing some left knee problems. Of course, I am approaching 50 so some of this may have happened anyway.

 

I hate to abandon the method that I have worked so hard on, but I honestly have had to really tone the moves that they advocate down in order to play golf. I did get major distance and accuracy gains but the body could not keep up. I play a modified version of that, and now that I have shot under par yesterday and today, I hate to consider changing.

 

I think they have a $20 one month trial on RST where you learn the basics but I am sure JM will chime in with his opinion.

 

 

EDIT: Rotary Swiing Thread

http://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/5837-rotary-swing/page__hl__%2Brotary+%2Bswing

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The Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf is a book that describes a swing that sets the angle of the wrists early in the backswing. The hinge and hold by Mickelson is also a method that sets the angle of the wrists early. They are complementary methods. FLV02, read the book reviews on Amazon and decide if you want to buy the book. I just contributed to this topic because I recognized that you were getting good results on the full swing by using an early wrist set. I thought you might want to read a book based on that method. The Four Magic Moves will tell you everything you need to do to hit the ball well using an early wrist set.

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The Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf is a book that describes a swing that sets the angle of the wrists early in the backswing. The hinge and hold by Mickelson is also a method that sets the angle of the wrists early. They are complementary methods. FLV02, read the book reviews on Amazon and decide if you want to buy the book. I just contributed to this topic because I recognized that you were getting good results on the full swing by using an early wrist set. I thought you might want to read a book based on that method. The Four Magic Moves will tell you everything you need to do to hit the ball well using an early wrist set.

 

 

The Four Magic Moves has a backwards wrist break and is the key component of all of the other moves. It is a totally different move than Phil's "hinge" move. Other than an early wrist break it is not similar.

In a typical wrist break the hands hinge up and down and the club face opens. Dante says this is wrong and the right wrist breaks back and the club face closes.

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The Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf is a book that describes a swing that sets the angle of the wrists early in the backswing. The hinge and hold by Mickelson is also a method that sets the angle of the wrists early. They are complementary methods. FLV02, read the book reviews on Amazon and decide if you want to buy the book. I just contributed to this topic because I recognized that you were getting good results on the full swing by using an early wrist set. I thought you might want to read a book based on that method. The Four Magic Moves will tell you everything you need to do to hit the ball well using an early wrist set.

 

Just downloaded it for the Nook. It was only $2.50 so I can't go wrong. I will read it then take a look at RST based on my results. Thanks again for the recommendation!

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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RoverRick, not sure why you want to keep disputing what I have to say about the Four Magic Moves. I have read and studied this book (and many others) for years. I have Mickelson's DVD. That doesn't make me an expert but it does mean I'm informed. There is more than one way to set the wrists early. I'm expressing my opinion on the subject just as you are. That's all we have here are opinions.

 

I enjoy reading your contributions to the topics on this site. We obviously have a different perspective on this topic. Let's just say that we agree to disagree on the similarity of the early set in Four Magic Moves and hinge and hold.

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RoverRick, not sure why you want to keep disputing what I have to say about the Four Magic Moves. I have read and studied this book (and many others) for years. I have Mickelson's DVD. That doesn't make me an expert but it does mean I'm informed. There is more than one way to set the wrists early. I'm expressing my opinion on the subject just as you are. That's all we have here are opinions.

 

I enjoy reading your contributions to the topics on this site. We obviously have a different perspective on this topic. Let's just say that we agree to disagree on the similarity of the early set in Four Magic Moves and hinge and hold.

 

Will, I am sorry I have to be so anal about this. FL has the book and can see for himself, but Dante spent most of a chapter and more than 10 illistrations explaining why this "Backwards" wrist break was the right one, in his opinion. This is a totally different move than Phil makes in the video.

backward+wrist+break.JPG

 

 

When FL first broached this subject, I went to the video and watched. I gave the 4MM considerable thought about whether to recommend it to him or if it was indeed similar. To me the "Stack and Tilt" was much closer to the "Hinge and Hold" than the 4 Magic Moves primarily because the wrist break with the 4MM is so different than any other method that I have seen.

 

I also decided that as far as a recommendation of the 4MM goes, I can not recommend this to someone else. I have not only read this book, but also I have subscribed to the follow on from Andy Brown, and recieve emails about this method 3 or 4 times a week for six months. I have watched countless videos of this and it is not something I would recommend changing to.

 

And here is why. It is an extremely powerful and seemingly effortless swing. But in the long run this backwards wrist break has caused elbow injuries (tendonitis), the lateral hip shift has inflamed a long standing back problem I have, and the straightening of the left leg has caused (is causing right now) swelliing and pain in the knee.

 

I said in an earlier post I have not fully implemented this into my game, but in reality I did. and it almost ended my golfing. I am not the only one that has had this problem. I kept thinking that this would get easier with time. However, the more I do it the more these injuries keep popping up. I occassionally will hit the ball with this swing and get unreal results. Earlier tonight in the scramble I hit a 19* hybrid 240 yards up a hill and laser straight to the flag and we had a 6' eagle putt. However, the price to pay for this is high.

 

I will conceed that both swings are set the wrist early swings but that is the only similarity between them.

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Will, I am sorry I have to be so anal about this. FL has the book and can see for himself, but Dante spent most of a chapter and more than 10 illistrations explaining why this "Backwards" wrist break was the right one, in his opinion. This is a totally different move than Phil makes in the video.

backward+wrist+break.JPG

 

 

When FL first broached this subject, I went to the video and watched. I gave the 4MM considerable thought about whether to recommend it to him or if it was indeed similar. To me the "Stack and Tilt" was much closer to the "Hinge and Hold" than the 4 Magic Moves primarily because the wrist break with the 4MM is so different than any other method that I have seen.

 

I also decided that as far as a recommendation of the 4MM goes, I can not recommend this to someone else. I have not only read this book, but also I have subscribed to the follow on from Andy Brown, and recieve emails about this method 3 or 4 times a week for six months. I have watched countless videos of this and it is not something I would recommend changing to.

 

And here is why. It is an extremely powerful and seemingly effortless swing. But in the long run this backwards wrist break has caused elbow injuries (tendonitis), the lateral hip shift has inflamed a long standing back problem I have, and the straightening of the left leg has caused (is causing right now) swelliing and pain in the knee.

 

I said in an earlier post I have not fully implemented this into my game, but in reality I did. and it almost ended my golfing. I am not the only one that has had this problem. I kept thinking that this would get easier with time. However, the more I do it the more these injuries keep popping up. I occassionally will hit the ball with this swing and get unreal results. Earlier tonight in the scramble I hit a 19* hybrid 240 yards up a hill and laser straight to the flag and we had a 6' eagle putt. However, the price to pay for this is high.

 

I will conceed that both swings are set the wrist early swings but that is the only similarity between them.

 

Yup, the two are very different. Actually, the hinge-and-hold early wrist break is considered a mistake by Dante, and he even shows some illustrations showing that. As far as the swing goes, I like it a lot. Mine is still very choppy, but once I commit to it, I can KILL the ball. Right now, the only problem I having is getting the lateral hip movement. I have been guilty of the flaw of turning the hips, and is something I have done since I started learning 2.5 years ago. Once, I get that down, I will be fine. So far though, I have not felt any pain. I have felt uncomfortable, but no pain yet *Knock On Wood*

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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To add balance to this topic, I'll give my perspective on the Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf. The book describes a swing that fully sets the wrists by the time the arms are halfway back on the backswing. (This is the opposite of a swing where you extend and create a wide arc going back and set the angle at the top of the swing.) With the angle set halfway back, you just continue turning the shoulders fully and initiate the downswing by sliding and turning the hips to the left. Watch Lee Westwood or Nick Faldo swing and you'll get a good representation of the method. Nothing really unique or "magical" except for one thing I'll mention below.

 

When the moves are executed correctly, a lot of good things happen. The clubhead will swing back exactly on plane, and when you reach the top of the backswing, the left hand and wrist will be perfectly square and perfectly in line and on plane. You will be wound into a tight athletic position. If you move into the downswing preserving that tight, wound, top of swing position, you will hit the ball with an element of power and precision that you most likely have never experienced. You won't have just an "Ah-Ha!" moment, you'll have a "By golly, I can't believe I just did that!" moment. The magic is that when you execute all the moves properly, you'll hit the most amazing, solid and powerful shot you've ever hit. I've read lots of instruction books and experimented with lots of different methods, and none give me the feeling that I get when I use this method correctly.

 

There are pitfalls. If you exaggerate the moves you can get closed at the top and you'll hit some of the biggest hooks you can imagine. Like any method, you'll always be making adjustments to keep it tuned. But when you get it tuned and do it correctly, you'll hit shots you are really thrilled with.

 

With respect to hinge and hold, as soon as Michelson came out with the DVD, I acquired a copy. Since I had always used an early set, his DVD meshed perfectly with what I had always done with my swing. A short game swing is certainly different from a full swing, but the hinge and hold is just a method that keeps the hands ahead of the clubhead through impact. That's very important for short shots. The backward break described in Four Magic Moves works fine with shots Phil describes. Whether Phil does it exactly that way is not important to me because the hinge for short shots is not that technical. You sometimes adjust the way you hinge to get different results.

 

There is a website that advertises a golf "secret" or "magic moves". I assume that is what Rick mentioned with respect to Andy Brown. I stumbled on the site once and knew immediately it was based on this book. I'm always wary of sites that have a "secret" they won't reveal unless you pay. But since I have no experience with this site, I can't say if the service provided is worthwhile or not. I will say that all of the "secret" and "magical" information is available just by purchasing the book. This book had been out of print for several years, so that may have prompted this service. I once found a copy for a friend in a used book store. Then I noticed last December that it was available on Amazon again. Some portions of the book are outdated since it was written long ago, but all of the swing mechanics and discussions are spot on. There is a section on the physics of the golf swing that is very informative in explaining how the golf swing functions. Anyone interested in learning everything they can about the golf swing will like this book.

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To add balance to this topic, I'll give my perspective on the Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf. The book describes a swing that fully sets the wrists by the time the arms are halfway back on the backswing. (This is the opposite of a swing where you extend and create a wide arc going back and set the angle at the top of the swing.) With the angle set halfway back, you just continue turning the shoulders fully and initiate the downswing by sliding and turning the hips to the left. Watch Lee Westwood or Nick Faldo swing and you'll get a good representation of the method. Nothing really unique or "magical" except for one thing I'll mention below.

 

When the moves are executed correctly, a lot of good things happen. The clubhead will swing back exactly on plane, and when you reach the top of the backswing, the left hand and wrist will be perfectly square and perfectly in line and on plane. You will be wound into a tight athletic position. If you move into the downswing preserving that tight, wound, top of swing position, you will hit the ball with an element of power and precision that you most likely have never experienced. You won't have just an "Ah-Ha!" moment, you'll have a "By golly, I can't believe I just did that!" moment. The magic is that when you execute all the moves properly, you'll hit the most amazing, solid and powerful shot you've ever hit. I've read lots of instruction books and experimented with lots of different methods, and none give me the feeling that I get when I use this method correctly.

 

There are pitfalls. If you exaggerate the moves you can get closed at the top and you'll hit some of the biggest hooks you can imagine. Like any method, you'll always be making adjustments to keep it tuned. But when you get it tuned and do it correctly, you'll hit shots you are really thrilled with.

 

With respect to hinge and hold, as soon as Michelson came out with the DVD, I acquired a copy. Since I had always used an early set, his DVD meshed perfectly with what I had always done with my swing. A short game swing is certainly different from a full swing, but the hinge and hold is just a method that keeps the hands ahead of the clubhead through impact. That's very important for short shots. The backward break described in Four Magic Moves works fine with shots Phil describes. Whether Phil does it exactly that way is not important to me because the hinge for short shots is not that technical. You sometimes adjust the way you hinge to get different results.

 

There is a website that advertises a golf "secret" or "magic moves". I assume that is what Rick mentioned with respect to Andy Brown. I stumbled on the site once and knew immediately it was based on this book. I'm always wary of sites that have a "secret" they won't reveal unless you pay. But since I have no experience with this site, I can't say if the service provided is worthwhile or not. I will say that all of the "secret" and "magical" information is available just by purchasing the book. This book had been out of print for several years, so that may have prompted this service. I once found a copy for a friend in a used book store. Then I noticed last December that it was available on Amazon again. Some portions of the book are outdated since it was written long ago, but all of the swing mechanics and discussions are spot on. There is a section on the physics of the golf swing that is very informative in explaining how the golf swing functions. Anyone interested in learning everything they can about the golf swing will like this book.

 

I completely agree with this. So far, when I execute the moves, the ball is FLYING off of my clubs. I really enjoy this swing. Little by little, I am starting to gain confidence while I am over the ball. I will post how things go tomorrow because, weather-permitting, I plan on playing at least 9. I am not expecting my lowest round of my life, but I do want to see at least one good shot show up on the course.

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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I completely agree with this. So far, when I execute the moves, the ball is FLYING off of my clubs. I really enjoy this swing. Little by little, I am starting to gain confidence while I am over the ball. I will post how things go tomorrow because, weather-permitting, I plan on playing at least 9. I am not expecting my lowest round of my life, but I do want to see at least one good shot show up on the course.

 

I actually tried the MM a while ago as well as the stack and tilt. When I first started it was wonderful, but bad habits come in quickly. I don't use either anymore and am of the opinion that nothing replaces a good instructor who can actually see your swing.

 

As Matt always says, "feel is not real"

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Golf is not one fit all you have to know your swing sequence to match it with advice. The number one thing that hurts a lot of golfers is that they don't know what advice to take and what advice to leave on the table based on their swing.

 

One-plane swingers, it is all rotation to get back to impact no lateral hip slide.

Hybrid swingers, it is a slight lateral hip slide and then rotation to get into impact properly.

Two-planners, it is pretty much all lateral hip slide to get back into impact.

 

If you are a two-plane swinger at the top and use all rotation on the down swing it will turn very ugly, you can not mix and match a backswing sequence wit ha different down swing sequence and be successful. All swing types have some sort of lag built into them for the proper downswing sequence.

 

What you think you are doing is more then likely not what you are really doing, video and instructors can help you through which type of swing and sequence you fall into.

 

David Toms = Two-plane

Tiger Woods = Hybrid

Jonathan Byrd = One-plane

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Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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This is a quick update. The rain in my area has prevented me from golfing at all so I have not had time to practice that much. The only swings I have gotten in so far are hitting my BirdieBall in my backyard or hitting beat-up balls into the woods when their is a break in the weather. The swing is still choppy because I am thinking A LOT during the swing, trying to get the 4 magic moves right. I have the backswing pretty much down, but it is the downswing that I keep messing up on. I mentioned earlier how I have always been guilty of turning my hips. When I make it just a lateral movement, I forget to keep the broken wrists. When I keep the broken wrists, I end up turning my hips. I plan on going to the range tomorrow so that will be good. Hopefully I can get this swing down, because I love the results when I get lucky and make the correct 4 moves.

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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There is a lot of good points in this book, I have abandoned the backwards wrist brake for the most part, which makes me an advocate of the Three Magic Moves?, I guess:). I do not focus on the backswing at all. It makes no real difference how you get there, just so long as you get to the proper position at the top. My wrists are in the proper position at the top, ie "backwards wrist break" but I find starting with this move is not best for me. Also, I try to limit the wrist movement at all.

 

However, when you take out the first move, it is not significantly different than many of the other methods out there. I still maintain that this is very different than the Hinge and Hold and by your embracing it you are venturing far from the Hinge and Hold which was not the question that you first proposed.

 

You did not ask for a complete swing rebuild, you asked for something that would expand on the Hinge and Hold.

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Thanks Richard, that is a great complement I try to base what I am writing especially when it comes to swing advise on what someone currently has to offer so to speak. If I were in the golf industry which I am not, I just have too much time on my hands i would not be a "method" type of teacher.

 

As for "methods" like "hinge and hold" or S&T, I try to steer people away from them as it has bad distance and control issues in longer clubs. If they want to do that then I'll roll with it but I will make a comment here and there saying it might not be correct for them.

 

Out of all the "methods" that I have looked at and tried messing around a little rotaryswing.com and there RST model (one I did a big review on) seemed to be hte most logical in terms of bio-mechanics. Am I trying to just implement one or two things in the swing as I am pretty happy with the rest of my swing.

 

Small tweaks are always better and easier to make then tearing down the entire swing and rebuilding it from the ground up. This is why I can't believe Tiger Woods has now done that twice in his professional career. No one else in History as successful as him or famous in golf has done that, they all just tried to keep their swings and make minor adjustments here and there.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Thanks for the advice guys. Here's my thing. I feel like I should be scoring a lot lower than I should be (most of you probably think so too). I want to change my swing because I am tired of shooting in the high 90s, and here's why. Usually when I am playing golf, I will show flashes of brilliance. These flashes of brilliance include good birdies and having an eagle opportunity. This is when my scores look like it will end in the mid to low 80s (note: I have never shot in the 80s EVER). But after that hole, without even thinking about it, my swing fails me. This swing fails me when I am full of confidence, and only thinking about the picture of my ball landing on the green. When my swing fails me, I do one of four things. I either severely push my shot out of bounds, I slice it out of bounds, I hit it straight when I have been compensating for a push, which lands me out of bounds or in the deep rough (my home course is very narrow on holes and the 2nd cut of rough is not very wide. I would say 10 yards before it turns into grass that comes up to my thigh), or I'll hit it fat.. Its that consistency in my golf swing that I am searching for, and I am stumped. Because once of those four things happen, it appears at least once a hole for the rest of the round. Yes, most of my trouble is off the tee, but I am working on that. I have that new driver coming in with a shaft that should help me out, but you never know how much that will help. But even when I club down to a hybrid off the tee, I will still get into trouble either on the tee shot or the second shot. MY short game has been great. Honestly, anything under sixty yards I have been great with (as long as I am not in that deep rough that usually takes a full swing to move 10 yards). My putting has been solid too. I have been one-putting so much now that I almost expect it . This is why I have been trying to rebuild the swing now. I need consistency. I have seen myself play as a golfer that is 10 strokes better than my score shows at the end of a round. And thats what really frustrates me and thats why this thread has turned into a rebuild of my swing. I am scoring 3s and 4s and then 3 holes later I am shooting 6s,7s, and the occasional 8. I NEED CHANGE! Sorry about my venting guys :excl:

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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Thanks for the advice guys. Here's my thing. I feel like I should be scoring a lot lower than I should be (most of you probably think so too). I want to change my swing because I am tired of shooting in the high 90s, and here's why. Usually when I am playing golf, I will show flashes of brilliance. These flashes of brilliance include good birdies and having an eagle opportunity. This is when my scores look like it will end in the mid to low 80s (note: I have never shot in the 80s EVER). But after that hole, without even thinking about it, my swing fails me. This swing fails me when I am full of confidence, and only thinking about the picture of my ball landing on the green. When my swing fails me, I do one of four things. I either severely push my shot out of bounds, I slice it out of bounds, I hit it straight when I have been compensating for a push, which lands me out of bounds or in the deep rough (my home course is very narrow on holes and the 2nd cut of rough is not very wide. I would say 10 yards before it turns into grass that comes up to my thigh), or I'll hit it fat.. Its that consistency in my golf swing that I am searching for, and I am stumped. Because once of those four things happen, it appears at least once a hole for the rest of the round. Yes, most of my trouble is off the tee, but I am working on that. I have that new driver coming in with a shaft that should help me out, but you never know how much that will help. But even when I club down to a hybrid off the tee, I will still get into trouble either on the tee shot or the second shot. MY short game has been great. Honestly, anything under sixty yards I have been great with (as long as I am not in that deep rough that usually takes a full swing to move 10 yards). My putting has been solid too. I have been one-putting so much now that I almost expect it . This is why I have been trying to rebuild the swing now. I need consistency. I have seen myself play as a golfer that is 10 strokes better than my score shows at the end of a round. And thats what really frustrates me and thats why this thread has turned into a rebuild of my swing. I am scoring 3s and 4s and then 3 holes later I am shooting 6s,7s, and the occasional 8. I NEED CHANGE! Sorry about my venting guys :excl:

 

I went through the exact same thing. My scores on a bad day are now in the low 90s and mid 80s on a good day. By far the best way to fix it is to get a good instructor. I've tried so many of these quick fixes and in the end they just screw up your mechanics. What I look for now in training aids/books are things that I already do naturally in my swing rather than try to rebuild. But by far I've gotten the most out of a professional seeing my flaws and telling me how to fix them.

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I just deleted 8 paragraphs of a long winded suggestion full of anecdotal stories about a friend in a similar situation, but here are the cliffsnotes on it. If you need more consistancy in your game, you will not get it by changing swings. Obviously, if you have legitimate birdie and eagle opportunities you have a decent enough swing to break 90. The only way to get consistancy is to have a consistant preshot routine and tempo. Preshot should engrain good tempo.

 

I would bet that you have a much faster tempo with the driver and irons than you do with the wedge. Of course you are going to have a faster club head with the driver, but the swing tempo that you use for you 60 yard wedge shot that you say is good, would be better to use with the driver than what ever you are using now. By rushing your tempo you are not in the proper position to hit the ball the direction it needs to go.

 

I have recently been accused of being deceptively long. Because I slowed my tempo down to the point that I try to hit the driver and wedge with the same tempo, I am making center of the club contact. This allows time for the club head to get into the proper position before it strikes the ball. Initially, I gave up a lot of distance, I thought, but in reality it did not give up much and the more I became accustom to it the farther the ball goes.

 

Think of Ernie Els and Fred Couples not Bubba Watson. Fred Couples says swing slow and hit hard.

 

(I have nothing agains Bubba Watson, but I do not think anyone not a scratch golfer should try to copy him.)

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I have refrained from commenting on this because I know when I was younger(and even now), I hated lectures...So FLV, look at this as a story..A true cautionary tale..lol...The "pain" RR speaks of is not the type of pain that someone your age & in good health such as yourself should feel now or in the near future...If you do even feel "discomfort"("uncomfortable" in your words) @ your age, that shouldn't be a red flag, it should be a major frickin explosion...It is something that will gradually, over time wear away the cartilage in both your knee(meniscus) & hip joint....

 

And the unfortunate thing is that the more effective that you become at executing the "slide & snap" the more pressure/potential long-term damage you are doing, no ifs, ands or buts..Ironically, it's an inverse relationship...The better you execute the move & the faster your hip slide & knee "post-up" become, the more damage you're doing...There is a difference between a weight transfer & subsequent hip slide to the left, that is essential for a quality swing & the move that I am speaking of & at the extreme, it is the move that Tiger so effectively used under Butch Harmon...

 

The lateral hip slide & straightening/snapping of the left leg was a move(s) that I used for about 15 years(mid 30s till about 2 yrs ago)...Let me say up front that it works & if you properly execute the "slide & snap," you will get the elusive "holy grail" distance that most amateurs fantasize about & lie about getting..lol...And I'm talking about a major hip move, not a nudge and a noticable snapping of the knee..People actually commented on mine because it was so prominant..I could vary the force/speed of the slide/knee snap to get that extra "oomph" when needed...Since abandoning this move, I have lost the ability to "reach back," as I have stated, however this is life...I'm ok with my current swing...

 

The ave. tour pro slides/turns their hips @ 2.5mph...Tiger and the bombers are just over three...The ave. 90-95mph amateur is @ 1mph...This is where the power/distance comes from...Your biggest hitters have wicked fast hips..

 

Anyway, my hip movement was timed @ 2.7mph(sp:116-118mph) @ the university..pretty good..but the problem was that when I straightened/snapped my left knee, it was like hitting a wall @ 95-100mph, w/only a seat belt on..There's still internal trauma, from sudden stop & sudden, violent internal movement(sliding,shearing, twisting,etc) of soft tisue(cartilage)....Prior to implementing the "slide & snap" as we called it, I had had 8 knee surgeries(3 L/5 R), all football related, and since the age of 45, I have had 3 more, all on my left knee, and two of them were related to lack/loss of cartilage, which while not caused by my swing, was greatly worsened by it....

 

I'm 52yo...My teacher had tried to change me about 10-12yrs ago, however simply, the results were addictive...While we didn't measure our drives like we do now, when I came through & snapped that leg, my ball was out with anyone's...Anyone's...And I was playing to a +2 & life was great....I played in a Champions Pro Am with a pro who was a Champion's major winner, who I spoke of in another thread, & while he was 55 at the time, he was ranked 4th in driving dist. and the 8 holes that we pulled drivers out & let em fly, he was 1 for 8 in puttin it past me...My point is, this move works...But there's a price to pay...

 

It's similar to decisions that I made in football at the age of twenty that I was told would effect me in my forties or beyond...Hell, that seemed like eternity & I was "invincible"....I didnt listen then & I didnt listen to my teacher later regarding the hip slide & leg snap(notice a pattern here?...lol)....

 

I didn't want to hear it..25-40 more yards on top of 275-280...Seriously, save the lecture for someone else...I actually had the "balls"(lack of brains & class was more accurate) to tell my teacher that when he could put a ball where mine were landing, he could tell me what was the best swing for me..Fortunately, he showed more class than I did or deserved and didn't tell me to get lost & I made amends for my ignorance, arrogance & rudeness...

 

But my point is, we have a way of rationalizing & saying "not me," the potential negative outcome will not happen to me..."I'm different"...If your knee is constructed the same as mine, RRs, JM's or Tiger's, it's not a matter of if, it's when...And that cartilage loss is irreversible...It's gone...

 

The thing is that you don't even have to "perfect" this move, say get to 2.5mph hip speed to do damage...Less than 2% of anyone who swings a club gets to that speed...I was told by an engineer that if your swing speed is 112 or greater, your hips are in that range...So guys like JM are there...You may/may not be...Doesn't matter....You can damage your knee/hip just as quickly & severely as JM or someone at that end of the scale...

 

Bottom line, you're young as is your swing...Chances are nothing's "ingrained" that can't be changed fairly quickly with minimal effect on your game...And chances are you haven't maximized this move, so it can easily be replaced...

 

The books are great as is this forum, however FLV, find a teacher who can help you put together a swing that will last a lifetime, with room for adjustments along the way....

 

Remember, this was a story, not a lecture...The Best....

 

Richard

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever......

 

Thank you for both your story and your concern. I have taken everything you said and will make sure not to screw up my body. I'm talking to the PGA Pro where I work/ my home course on Saturday to start talking about getting lessons. Thank-you for everything!

Inside My Blue Callaway Warbird X Golf Stand Bag:

Driver:Nike SQ 10.5* with Graphite Design Y6+

3W:Cobra S2 14*

4W: Nike SQ Dymo 17*

3H and 4H: Taylormade Rescue 19* and 22*

5H: Cleveland Mashie 23*

6H: Adams a3os Hollow-Back

7Iron-Sand Wedge:Callaway X-20 Series with Callaway Steel

Lob Wedge (60*):Cleveland CG-12 Black Pearl with Cleveland TRaction Steel Wedge Flex

Putter: Odyssey Versa #9

Golfball: Callaway Hex Black Tour

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BTW, Dante's book's a classic...You get Dante's lateral hip slide down & fire from the top & youl'll get all of the speed that you need...Have a good summer....

 

Fairqays & Greens 4ever....

 

After considerable thought and experimentation I have found that the main problems with Dante's Four Magic Moves is being too aggressive with them. The only goal with the early backwards wrist break is that it is in the proper position at the top of the swing. Getting the wrist completely set before starting up is very hard on the left elbow, but if you start the move as you are turning and lifting your hands, ensuring that you are in the correct position at the top, there is no where near the stress on the elbow. Bubba is on the cover of one of the golf magazines this month and if you look, he is set exactly how Dante discribes.

 

The next issue is the back pain and knee pain based on the lateral hip movement and straightening of the left leg. The thing is if you slow down and shift the hips but not too aggressively, ie, a slower tempo, these are still powerful moves. It is the clubhead speed that matters not hip speed. I find that while it feels like I am slowly making these moves, my hands and clubhead are actually speeding up.

 

It seems that the slower I go the faster the clubhead goes. Recently, one of my playing partners made the statement that I am a deceptively long hitter, because I appear to be moving very slow, yet am always the longest off the box now. Even in the scramble yesterday, I was up there with the long knockers when I used to just be the straight hitter.

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

:918457628_PrecisionPro: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

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