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Flv02

Converting Hinge and Hold to a Full Swing and Review of Dante's 4MM

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Hey Golfers,

 

I need some help. As I have posted several times, my game is VERY inconsistent. Either my short game is off, or my long game is off. I was wondering my short game was off this season because it was so good last season. Then after hours on the practice green, I realized what I forgot to do this season! I bought Phil's Secrets of the Short Game DVD last year at the end of the season, and I forgot to watch it before I played this year. Since I only used it for a month last year, it was not ingrained into my memory yet. So, I watched it and my short game improved DRAMATICALLY. Not only has it improved, but it is CONSISTENT. I hit the ball clean and make a good divot each time. Today, I was practicing in my backyard and aimed at a target that was maybe a little over 50 yards. Using my 62 degree, I almost had to do a full swing. What happened? A high trajectory ball with a lot of spin that hit my target. I was shocked! I was never able to hit a target like that, and I was able to do it over and over again. That got me thinking. Would I be able to convert this into a full swing to bring this consistency to my iron game? So I grabbed my 5-iron (which I have never been able to hit) and my 8-iron (my favorite iron). I grabbed some terrible balls I found during my last round and aimed into the woods. I hit three with my 8-iron, expecting low punch shots or to hit it fat. What happened? A great trajectory that flew into the woods STRAIGHT. Then I grabbed my 5-iron, not expecting to do anything. What happened? THE SAME SWING THREE TIMES! I was wondering if anybody else has had experience with the "hinge-and-hold" and trying to convert this to a full swing. The only thing with this is two things. I can't do do it with my hybrids, and my finish is not full. From the naked eye, it looks like its going the same distance or even farther! But the woods is only 60 yards away so, I can't tell if I am hitting my yardages correctly. I am going to the range and/or course tomorrow so I will let you know how it works out. So, the main question again. Has anyone had any experience with this? Any advice? Thanks everyone!

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I just watched the video of Phil doing this. This "hinge and hold" is basically setting up with the weight on the left side, and setting the wrist early, coming down steeply on the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the ground, and the hold part is stopping the wrist action keeping you from flipping the club head too early.

 

This in the full swing would be a variation of the Stack and Tilt.

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I just watched the video of Phil doing this. This "hinge and hold" is basically setting up with the weight on the left side, and setting the wrist early, coming down steeply on the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the ground, and the hold part is stopping the wrist action keeping you from flipping the club head too early.

 

This in the full swing would be a variation of the Stack and Tilt.

 

Yup, Stack and Tilt actually is a good way to hit short irons, on mid and longer clubs the trajectory might come out too low and lose a lot of power / distance. Try having 60 to 70% on your front leg and hitting a driver, probably won't get real high and not carry very far. The early wrist set thing on wedges is a great thing, might cause some problems on say a driver.

 

You still want to coil on the back leg and keep the wrist set from the top to about thigh high in the downswing then "unwind" the wrists into the back of the ball, impact bag is a most imho, make sure you hit the top of the bag with the shaft first then the head hits the bag. This will keep you from flipping the club as well.

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Out of the deep rough, or any rough for that matter, an exaggerated early wrist cock and downward strike on the ball is great, and for some reason, nothing bigger than a 7 iron are what I use all the time.

 

Yesterday, I was 240 yards out in the deep deep rough and thought about this. Unfortunately, I decided to hit a hybrid, because while long, it was rather thin and I was stupid. Well, when I found the ball and had a 220 yard shot, from the deep deep rough but a little bit thicker, I hit my third shot with a wedge to the center of the fairway. Then hit a great fourth shot and 4 feet for par.

 

I tried the Stack and Tilt and had great success with the irons but jmiller is right, I gave up distance on the longer clubs.

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Just went out and played a quick nine and my iron game was AMAZING. Had some problems of the tee, but then I decided to go with a completely different swing with my driver, just to keep my scores low. If I can get out later this week with someone (its supposed to rain all week) I will have them video tape the swing so everyone can see it. Currently, I am very happy.

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Just went out and played a quick nine and my iron game was AMAZING. Had some problems of the tee, but then I decided to go with a completely different swing with my driver, just to keep my scores low. If I can get out later this week with someone (its supposed to rain all week) I will have them video tape the swing so everyone can see it. Currently, I am very happy.

 

I found a newsletter from Trackman dating back to Jan 2010 might be slightly outdated by now

--> http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter6.pdf

 

Driver is the only club I think that should have a positive angle of attack with the exception of specialty shots. By "specialty" I mean driver off the deck and very low bullets like you would see in The Open Championship in high winds. Everything else is some degree of a negative angle of attack, if you hitting driver off the deck it should be just a longer fairway metal swing type of angle of attack.

 

With that said "hinge and hold" or "stack and tilt" pre-set the weight forward on the front leg and doesn't get much weight back onto the rear leg in the backswing the weight stays mostly forward. This will result into of a lower trajectory because of a steeper angle of attack. I use the method on 1/2 and 3/4 shots a lot of times in wedges and short irons into greens and into the wind shots that I want to make sure go very low in terms of trajectory.

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If you want an instruction book that describes "hinge and hold" for the full swing read this: http://www.amazon.com/Four-Magic-Moves-Winning-Golf/dp/0385477767

 

It was written in 1962 and references players from that era and before, but the instruction is excellent. Absolutely the best instruction book in my library. This book will teach you things about the golf swing you won't learn anywhere else.

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If you want an instruction book that describes "hinge and hold" for the full swing read this: http://www.amazon.com/Four-Magic-Moves-Winning-Golf/dp/0385477767

 

It was written in 1962 and references players from that era and before, but the instruction is excellent. Absolutely the best instruction book in my library. This book will teach you things about the golf swing you won't learn anywhere else.

 

 

Thanks for the recommendation I am going to buy a copy today. And thanks JM for all of the information!

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If you want an instruction book that describes "hinge and hold" for the full swing read this: http://www.amazon.co...f/dp/0385477767

 

It was written in 1962 and references players from that era and before, but the instruction is excellent. Absolutely the best instruction book in my library. This book will teach you things about the golf swing you won't learn anywhere else.

 

 

That is the Four Magic Moves of golf by Joe Dante. It is not the hinge and hold. I have read this book and have been implementing in my swing since last August. The so called Four Magic Moves are:

  1. Early "Backwards" wrist break to start the back swing.
  2. Spring tension with a straight left wrist and arm at the top.
  3. Lateral hip slide with the head back to start the downswing and allow gravity to start the hands and arms down.
  4. Release the hands late through the ball and turn to a full finish.
    (These may not be the magic moves that someone else lists but these are from my notes to myself on August 4 about what I need to do to implement this swing.)

Other than an early wrist break they are nothing alike. Even then, the 4MM uses a backwards wrist break. This is unlike anything you have ever done. Believe me, it is not something that you can mistake. I carried a grip on a piece of shaft and had to practice this move for weeks before I could do it without crossing my eyes.:blink: To be honest I have not fully implemented this in to my swing and use some parts of it. But it is definately not the hinge and hold.

 

 

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Thanks for the recommendation I am going to buy a copy today. And thanks JM for all of the information!

 

 

The H&H is more of an arm swing. while the 4MM is a body turn and the arms follow. While it may look somewhat simular, you will have a tremendous amount more power with the 4MM. Which is what you want on a full swing but not on a partial swing. When I converted to this, my short game pitches became horrible because the shot that was 30 yards with the H&H became a 55 yard shot with the 4MM. The S&T on the other hand does not incorperate a full body turn and is more of an arm turn, this does not effect the short game as much as going to the 4MM will.

 

 

I will say that there is not quite another feeling in the world like the first time you go to your bread and butter shot of a 30 yard pitch and watch it fly 15 yards dead straight over the flag and not even touch the green. So you go back and try again. And now you fly the green the other way and instead of having your "easy" 4 that you were thinking, you now have a 7. And then that continues for the whole round and you can not figure out how in the check your short game left so soon.

 

I have had to totally revamp my pitches because it was so hard to have "body hit" like the 4MM and an arm hit like the H&H. I can do them all now, but initially it was a huge struggle.

 

I will say that the 4MM is a much better swing than the S&T. The H&H is more of a specialty shot for pitches and punches.

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The H&H is more of an arm swing. while the 4MM is a body turn and the arms follow. While it may look somewhat simular, you will have a tremendous amount more power with the 4MM. Which is what you want on a full swing but not on a partial swing. When I converted to this, my short game pitches became horrible because the shot that was 30 yards with the H&H became a 55 yard shot with the 4MM. The S&T on the other hand does not incorperate a full body turn and is more of an arm turn, this does not effect the short game as much as going to the 4MM will.

 

 

I will say that there is not quite another feeling in the world like the first time you go to your bread and butter shot of a 30 yard pitch and watch it fly 15 yards dead straight over the flag and not even touch the green. So you go back and try again. And now you fly the green the other way and instead of having your "easy" 4 that you were thinking, you now have a 7. And then that continues for the whole round and you can not figure out how in the check your short game left so soon.

 

I have had to totally revamp my pitches because it was so hard to have "body hit" like the 4MM and an arm hit like the H&H. I can do them all now, but initially it was a huge struggle.

 

I will say that the 4MM is a much better swing than the S&T. The H&H is more of a specialty shot for pitches and punches.

 

Do you think I should still buy the book?

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Do you think I should still buy the book?

 

 

I have the book on my kindle right now, and read part of it last night.:rolleyes:

 

But I just recently downloaded it to that format. Originally I got the information off of the internet. I am not sure if I had it to do over again, I would probably look into the Rotary Swing Training (RST), based on JMillers excellent report on it. He has stated that one of the goals of this method is to preserve the body. The 4MM makes no such effort. I know the initial backwards wrist break putt stress on my elbow. I have had a back problem since 1991, crushed a disc, and while it got progressively worse, and I have no idea if the two are related but it became a serious issue after one month of playing with this swing. Also, the straightening of the left leg is now causing some left knee problems. Of course, I am approaching 50 so some of this may have happened anyway.

 

I hate to abandon the method that I have worked so hard on, but I honestly have had to really tone the moves that they advocate down in order to play golf. I did get major distance and accuracy gains but the body could not keep up. I play a modified version of that, and now that I have shot under par yesterday and today, I hate to consider changing.

 

I think they have a $20 one month trial on RST where you learn the basics but I am sure JM will chime in with his opinion.

 

 

EDIT: Rotary Swiing Thread

http://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/5837-rotary-swing/page__hl__%2Brotary+%2Bswing

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The Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf is a book that describes a swing that sets the angle of the wrists early in the backswing. The hinge and hold by Mickelson is also a method that sets the angle of the wrists early. They are complementary methods. FLV02, read the book reviews on Amazon and decide if you want to buy the book. I just contributed to this topic because I recognized that you were getting good results on the full swing by using an early wrist set. I thought you might want to read a book based on that method. The Four Magic Moves will tell you everything you need to do to hit the ball well using an early wrist set.

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The Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf is a book that describes a swing that sets the angle of the wrists early in the backswing. The hinge and hold by Mickelson is also a method that sets the angle of the wrists early. They are complementary methods. FLV02, read the book reviews on Amazon and decide if you want to buy the book. I just contributed to this topic because I recognized that you were getting good results on the full swing by using an early wrist set. I thought you might want to read a book based on that method. The Four Magic Moves will tell you everything you need to do to hit the ball well using an early wrist set.

 

 

The Four Magic Moves has a backwards wrist break and is the key component of all of the other moves. It is a totally different move than Phil's "hinge" move. Other than an early wrist break it is not similar.

In a typical wrist break the hands hinge up and down and the club face opens. Dante says this is wrong and the right wrist breaks back and the club face closes.

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The Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf is a book that describes a swing that sets the angle of the wrists early in the backswing. The hinge and hold by Mickelson is also a method that sets the angle of the wrists early. They are complementary methods. FLV02, read the book reviews on Amazon and decide if you want to buy the book. I just contributed to this topic because I recognized that you were getting good results on the full swing by using an early wrist set. I thought you might want to read a book based on that method. The Four Magic Moves will tell you everything you need to do to hit the ball well using an early wrist set.

 

Just downloaded it for the Nook. It was only $2.50 so I can't go wrong. I will read it then take a look at RST based on my results. Thanks again for the recommendation!

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RoverRick, not sure why you want to keep disputing what I have to say about the Four Magic Moves. I have read and studied this book (and many others) for years. I have Mickelson's DVD. That doesn't make me an expert but it does mean I'm informed. There is more than one way to set the wrists early. I'm expressing my opinion on the subject just as you are. That's all we have here are opinions.

 

I enjoy reading your contributions to the topics on this site. We obviously have a different perspective on this topic. Let's just say that we agree to disagree on the similarity of the early set in Four Magic Moves and hinge and hold.

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RoverRick, not sure why you want to keep disputing what I have to say about the Four Magic Moves. I have read and studied this book (and many others) for years. I have Mickelson's DVD. That doesn't make me an expert but it does mean I'm informed. There is more than one way to set the wrists early. I'm expressing my opinion on the subject just as you are. That's all we have here are opinions.

 

I enjoy reading your contributions to the topics on this site. We obviously have a different perspective on this topic. Let's just say that we agree to disagree on the similarity of the early set in Four Magic Moves and hinge and hold.

 

Will, I am sorry I have to be so anal about this. FL has the book and can see for himself, but Dante spent most of a chapter and more than 10 illistrations explaining why this "Backwards" wrist break was the right one, in his opinion. This is a totally different move than Phil makes in the video.

backward+wrist+break.JPG

 

 

When FL first broached this subject, I went to the video and watched. I gave the 4MM considerable thought about whether to recommend it to him or if it was indeed similar. To me the "Stack and Tilt" was much closer to the "Hinge and Hold" than the 4 Magic Moves primarily because the wrist break with the 4MM is so different than any other method that I have seen.

 

I also decided that as far as a recommendation of the 4MM goes, I can not recommend this to someone else. I have not only read this book, but also I have subscribed to the follow on from Andy Brown, and recieve emails about this method 3 or 4 times a week for six months. I have watched countless videos of this and it is not something I would recommend changing to.

 

And here is why. It is an extremely powerful and seemingly effortless swing. But in the long run this backwards wrist break has caused elbow injuries (tendonitis), the lateral hip shift has inflamed a long standing back problem I have, and the straightening of the left leg has caused (is causing right now) swelliing and pain in the knee.

 

I said in an earlier post I have not fully implemented this into my game, but in reality I did. and it almost ended my golfing. I am not the only one that has had this problem. I kept thinking that this would get easier with time. However, the more I do it the more these injuries keep popping up. I occassionally will hit the ball with this swing and get unreal results. Earlier tonight in the scramble I hit a 19* hybrid 240 yards up a hill and laser straight to the flag and we had a 6' eagle putt. However, the price to pay for this is high.

 

I will conceed that both swings are set the wrist early swings but that is the only similarity between them.

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Will, I am sorry I have to be so anal about this. FL has the book and can see for himself, but Dante spent most of a chapter and more than 10 illistrations explaining why this "Backwards" wrist break was the right one, in his opinion. This is a totally different move than Phil makes in the video.

backward+wrist+break.JPG

 

 

When FL first broached this subject, I went to the video and watched. I gave the 4MM considerable thought about whether to recommend it to him or if it was indeed similar. To me the "Stack and Tilt" was much closer to the "Hinge and Hold" than the 4 Magic Moves primarily because the wrist break with the 4MM is so different than any other method that I have seen.

 

I also decided that as far as a recommendation of the 4MM goes, I can not recommend this to someone else. I have not only read this book, but also I have subscribed to the follow on from Andy Brown, and recieve emails about this method 3 or 4 times a week for six months. I have watched countless videos of this and it is not something I would recommend changing to.

 

And here is why. It is an extremely powerful and seemingly effortless swing. But in the long run this backwards wrist break has caused elbow injuries (tendonitis), the lateral hip shift has inflamed a long standing back problem I have, and the straightening of the left leg has caused (is causing right now) swelliing and pain in the knee.

 

I said in an earlier post I have not fully implemented this into my game, but in reality I did. and it almost ended my golfing. I am not the only one that has had this problem. I kept thinking that this would get easier with time. However, the more I do it the more these injuries keep popping up. I occassionally will hit the ball with this swing and get unreal results. Earlier tonight in the scramble I hit a 19* hybrid 240 yards up a hill and laser straight to the flag and we had a 6' eagle putt. However, the price to pay for this is high.

 

I will conceed that both swings are set the wrist early swings but that is the only similarity between them.

 

Yup, the two are very different. Actually, the hinge-and-hold early wrist break is considered a mistake by Dante, and he even shows some illustrations showing that. As far as the swing goes, I like it a lot. Mine is still very choppy, but once I commit to it, I can KILL the ball. Right now, the only problem I having is getting the lateral hip movement. I have been guilty of the flaw of turning the hips, and is something I have done since I started learning 2.5 years ago. Once, I get that down, I will be fine. So far though, I have not felt any pain. I have felt uncomfortable, but no pain yet *Knock On Wood*

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To add balance to this topic, I'll give my perspective on the Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf. The book describes a swing that fully sets the wrists by the time the arms are halfway back on the backswing. (This is the opposite of a swing where you extend and create a wide arc going back and set the angle at the top of the swing.) With the angle set halfway back, you just continue turning the shoulders fully and initiate the downswing by sliding and turning the hips to the left. Watch Lee Westwood or Nick Faldo swing and you'll get a good representation of the method. Nothing really unique or "magical" except for one thing I'll mention below.

 

When the moves are executed correctly, a lot of good things happen. The clubhead will swing back exactly on plane, and when you reach the top of the backswing, the left hand and wrist will be perfectly square and perfectly in line and on plane. You will be wound into a tight athletic position. If you move into the downswing preserving that tight, wound, top of swing position, you will hit the ball with an element of power and precision that you most likely have never experienced. You won't have just an "Ah-Ha!" moment, you'll have a "By golly, I can't believe I just did that!" moment. The magic is that when you execute all the moves properly, you'll hit the most amazing, solid and powerful shot you've ever hit. I've read lots of instruction books and experimented with lots of different methods, and none give me the feeling that I get when I use this method correctly.

 

There are pitfalls. If you exaggerate the moves you can get closed at the top and you'll hit some of the biggest hooks you can imagine. Like any method, you'll always be making adjustments to keep it tuned. But when you get it tuned and do it correctly, you'll hit shots you are really thrilled with.

 

With respect to hinge and hold, as soon as Michelson came out with the DVD, I acquired a copy. Since I had always used an early set, his DVD meshed perfectly with what I had always done with my swing. A short game swing is certainly different from a full swing, but the hinge and hold is just a method that keeps the hands ahead of the clubhead through impact. That's very important for short shots. The backward break described in Four Magic Moves works fine with shots Phil describes. Whether Phil does it exactly that way is not important to me because the hinge for short shots is not that technical. You sometimes adjust the way you hinge to get different results.

 

There is a website that advertises a golf "secret" or "magic moves". I assume that is what Rick mentioned with respect to Andy Brown. I stumbled on the site once and knew immediately it was based on this book. I'm always wary of sites that have a "secret" they won't reveal unless you pay. But since I have no experience with this site, I can't say if the service provided is worthwhile or not. I will say that all of the "secret" and "magical" information is available just by purchasing the book. This book had been out of print for several years, so that may have prompted this service. I once found a copy for a friend in a used book store. Then I noticed last December that it was available on Amazon again. Some portions of the book are outdated since it was written long ago, but all of the swing mechanics and discussions are spot on. There is a section on the physics of the golf swing that is very informative in explaining how the golf swing functions. Anyone interested in learning everything they can about the golf swing will like this book.

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To add balance to this topic, I'll give my perspective on the Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf. The book describes a swing that fully sets the wrists by the time the arms are halfway back on the backswing. (This is the opposite of a swing where you extend and create a wide arc going back and set the angle at the top of the swing.) With the angle set halfway back, you just continue turning the shoulders fully and initiate the downswing by sliding and turning the hips to the left. Watch Lee Westwood or Nick Faldo swing and you'll get a good representation of the method. Nothing really unique or "magical" except for one thing I'll mention below.

 

When the moves are executed correctly, a lot of good things happen. The clubhead will swing back exactly on plane, and when you reach the top of the backswing, the left hand and wrist will be perfectly square and perfectly in line and on plane. You will be wound into a tight athletic position. If you move into the downswing preserving that tight, wound, top of swing position, you will hit the ball with an element of power and precision that you most likely have never experienced. You won't have just an "Ah-Ha!" moment, you'll have a "By golly, I can't believe I just did that!" moment. The magic is that when you execute all the moves properly, you'll hit the most amazing, solid and powerful shot you've ever hit. I've read lots of instruction books and experimented with lots of different methods, and none give me the feeling that I get when I use this method correctly.

 

There are pitfalls. If you exaggerate the moves you can get closed at the top and you'll hit some of the biggest hooks you can imagine. Like any method, you'll always be making adjustments to keep it tuned. But when you get it tuned and do it correctly, you'll hit shots you are really thrilled with.

 

With respect to hinge and hold, as soon as Michelson came out with the DVD, I acquired a copy. Since I had always used an early set, his DVD meshed perfectly with what I had always done with my swing. A short game swing is certainly different from a full swing, but the hinge and hold is just a method that keeps the hands ahead of the clubhead through impact. That's very important for short shots. The backward break described in Four Magic Moves works fine with shots Phil describes. Whether Phil does it exactly that way is not important to me because the hinge for short shots is not that technical. You sometimes adjust the way you hinge to get different results.

 

There is a website that advertises a golf "secret" or "magic moves". I assume that is what Rick mentioned with respect to Andy Brown. I stumbled on the site once and knew immediately it was based on this book. I'm always wary of sites that have a "secret" they won't reveal unless you pay. But since I have no experience with this site, I can't say if the service provided is worthwhile or not. I will say that all of the "secret" and "magical" information is available just by purchasing the book. This book had been out of print for several years, so that may have prompted this service. I once found a copy for a friend in a used book store. Then I noticed last December that it was available on Amazon again. Some portions of the book are outdated since it was written long ago, but all of the swing mechanics and discussions are spot on. There is a section on the physics of the golf swing that is very informative in explaining how the golf swing functions. Anyone interested in learning everything they can about the golf swing will like this book.

 

I completely agree with this. So far, when I execute the moves, the ball is FLYING off of my clubs. I really enjoy this swing. Little by little, I am starting to gain confidence while I am over the ball. I will post how things go tomorrow because, weather-permitting, I plan on playing at least 9. I am not expecting my lowest round of my life, but I do want to see at least one good shot show up on the course.

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