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Japanese and US markets: why not one?


DJNiich

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Why cant there just be one big market? It seems like it would be easier for both producers and consumers.

In reading some of the other threads, it really seems like the markets themselves have dictated the split. And by markets, I mean consumer profiles. Rarely in a US market will you find a golfer who buys clubs for status alone, or whose whole playing 'career' is at a range. Both of these are possible in Japan. On one of the other threads, Shambles had great information about golf in Japan vs. the US. I too think that there should be better access than a couple of websites and high import costs for some gear, but it seems like some of the gear in Japan just doesn't meet the needs of the US player and that the reverse is true too.

 

Others feel free to chime in.

Volvo Intorqueo

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It is not just golf clubs and it is not just US and Japan. There is nothing mystical about it.

 

Easy example: McDonalds has different menus and pricing all over the world. Even in throughout SE Asia the McD's menu in the Philippines is different from Hong Kong, and they both differ from Singapore, and from Kuala Lumpur. Those places are about 2-3 hours flying time from each other. Our Big Macs are US$2.60 for the one with a soda and fries. I think they would be closer to $4 in North America. Noone would pay US$4 over here for a Big Mac. We even have a McSphagetti on the menu.

 

If the demand grows for a product available only in another region or if they really think there is money to be made selling those products in another region some business person will make a plan to bring it there.

 

Couple of golf examples

 

Prices. Puma bag. I have one. Personally I don't there is enough demand for US$180-200 stand bag to make it cost effective to ship a hundred bags. I partly own a small golf store and expensive bags we no longer stock.

 

The Ping Japan stuff. The S57s were first released in Japan. That satisfied the "exclusivity" that the Japanese crave for because they were only available in Japan for a certain period. Then the US release which banks on the brand loyalty which a lot of Ping users are known for. The US buyers couldn't care less that Japan got it first. It worked and they are doing the same with the Anser irons.

 

The TM Japan stuff. Would TM USA want to bring in the Burner Forged irons at the quite high US$1,100 pricing to have another product compete or would they rather concentrate selling the R9 irons? If they think they could sell a significant number of Burner Forged to make it worth while in marketing expenses and the same time not cannibalize the sale of their R9s I'm sure the idea would be well discussed and prepared in the US market.

 

Tourstage vs Bridgestone. "Trickle down technology". Most of the US Bridgestone offerings from the balls, irons, and drivers are 1-2 product cycles older than the TS stuff. Again it protects the TS premium image in Japan. There was a snafu when the Z101s were released simultaneously. They were US$1,000 (4-pw) over here in Asia with NS Pro shafts. They were US$800 (3-pw) in the US with DG. That killed that line in Asia. People and shops here would buy the cheaper priced US product and sell here at the US$1,000 price. It resulted in not much of the product going around in the US and too much over here in Asia.

 

The type of market will dictate the product. It always has and it always will. "Grey Gooses" only come every so often.

 

I'm lucky enough that the Philippines is in the middle market wise and geography wise (more like gateway to the Orient). I get to see and use both JDM and US market products and can compare "value for money". The bonus is like I said partly own a store. I see and interact with a lot of customers of which a certain portion is Japanese.

 

Sorry for the long post.

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It is not just golf clubs and it is not just US and Japan. There is nothing mystical about it.

 

Easy example: McDonalds has different menus and pricing all over the world. Even in throughout SE Asia the McD's menu in the Philippines is different from Hong Kong, and they both differ from Singapore, and from Kuala Lumpur. Those places are about 2-3 hours flying time from each other. Our Big Macs are US$2.60 for the one with a soda and fries. I think they would be closer to $4 in North America. Noone would pay US$4 over here for a Big Mac. We even have a McSphagetti on the menu.

 

If the demand grows for a product available only in another region or if they really think there is money to be made selling those products in another region some business person will make a plan to bring it there.

 

Couple of golf examples

 

Prices. Puma bag. I have one. Personally I don't there is enough demand for US$180-200 stand bag to make it cost effective to ship a hundred bags. I partly own a small golf store and expensive bags we no longer stock.

 

The Ping Japan stuff. The S57s were first released in Japan. That satisfied the "exclusivity" that the Japanese crave for because they were only available in Japan for a certain period. Then the US release which banks on the brand loyalty which a lot of Ping users are known for. The US buyers couldn't care less that Japan got it first. It worked and they are doing the same with the Anser irons.

 

The TM Japan stuff. Would TM USA want to bring in the Burner Forged irons at the quite high US$1,100 pricing to have another product compete or would they rather concentrate selling the R9 irons? If they think they could sell a significant number of Burner Forged to make it worth while in marketing expenses and the same time not cannibalize the sale of their R9s I'm sure the idea would be well discussed and prepared in the US market.

 

Tourstage vs Bridgestone. "Trickle down technology". Most of the US Bridgestone offerings from the balls, irons, and drivers are 1-2 product cycles older than the TS stuff. Again it protects the TS premium image in Japan. There was a snafu when the Z101s were released simultaneously. They were US$1,000 (4-pw) over here in Asia with NS Pro shafts. They were US$800 (3-pw) in the US with DG. That killed that line in Asia. People and shops here would buy the cheaper priced US product and sell here at the US$1,000 price. It resulted in not much of the product going around in the US and too much over here in Asia.

 

The type of market will dictate the product. It always has and it always will. "Grey Gooses" only come every so often.

 

 

Sorry for the long post.

Love the long post. Exactly what I was hoping to find.

What about the different accessory offerings in different markets? I see people seeking out the Japanese only version of things like driver headcovers. Is this an exclusivity issue too? Why is it so expensive to get something like Como Come headcovers in the US? It seems like they would do well in the US, at the correct price point.

Volvo Intorqueo

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Another long post so the apology is in advance....

 

From my point of view because I used to be that guy with the orange Como Come putter cover, white Iomic grips and the green Puma bag :)

 

People are just drawn to exclusivity no matter what market/product. Having your headcover shipped a couple of thousand miles can guarantee a certain exclusivity. It is just the price that comes with the exclusivity that will be the line in the sand.

 

IMHO Japanese buyers don't balk at the price of exclusivity because in the Japanese market price is linked to status. You generally won't see Japanese buyers bragging that they bought their Maruman Majesty driver at $500 instead of the MSRP of $800. However most US buyers will post it in the "did I get a steal" thread :)

 

That keeps the prices of the more exclusive items up because the Japanese are willing to pay especially moreso for soft goods items because they are relatively inexpensive than clubs. A $60 putter cover is still only spending $60 for the pride of owning something that is the latest and the most exclusive than paying $350 for the newest fairway wood. I have seen many a Japanese golfer with the latest shoes, bag, gloves, headcovers but probably plays 4 year old irons.

 

Personally I don't think it would make sense for a company like Dance with Dragon or Pearly Gates to enter the US market at a lower price point. Yes they would probably sell more but at a smaller margin plus they would lose the "premium" attached to their name in Japan (much like the Z101s). Iomic has been around for about 10-12 years now in Japan. It has gained a small following in the US but the price point is the same thus preventing a really good invasion.

 

What has happened is that US companies woken up have latched on to the color and style trends to get a piece of that pie. I currently have Itomics (by Tacky Mack) on my Epon irons. They provide me with the "style statement" I want at 1/3 the price of Iomics and they are decent grips for the value.

 

With regards to pricing, like most US prices you see online in US websites vs in store, chances are they will be cheaper if you walk in to a store in SE Asia or a smaller store in Japan to buy the item.

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My post isn't going to be as long and informational as some of the previous ones, but: They have two markets because the two groups of people want different things. Japanese people will pay more for flashier clubs are different colors. They are also, on average, slightly shorter and smaller in general, than the average American.

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That keeps the prices of the more exclusive items up because the Japanese are willing to pay especially moreso for soft goods items because they are relatively inexpensive than clubs. A $60 putter cover is still only spending $60 for the pride of owning something that is the latest and the most exclusive than paying $350 for the newest fairway wood. I have seen many a Japanese golfer with the latest shoes, bag, gloves, headcovers but probably plays 4 year old irons.

 

Personally I don't think it would make sense for a company like Dance with Dragon or Pearly Gates to enter the US market at a lower price point. Yes they would probably sell more but at a smaller margin plus they would lose the "premium" attached to their name in Japan (much like the Z101s). Iomic has been around for about 10-12 years now in Japan. It has gained a small following in the US but the price point is the same thus preventing a really good invasion.

 

What has happened is that US companies woken up have latched on to the color and style trends to get a piece of that pie. I currently have Itomics (by Tacky Mack) on my Epon irons. They provide me with the "style statement" I want at 1/3 the price of Iomics and they are decent grips for the value.

 

Didn't think of it this way. I was just looking that the market in the US there is a void for alternate putter covers. You are right about the status thing. I wanted the spiderweb putter cover for the design, not the status and because of that the price was too high. Not many in the Sacramento area would even know of Como Come. In most cases in the US I could actually see these covers as a lower status thing, using them primarily to not advertise that there is a $300 Scotty Cameron in the bag.

 

I too have the Itomics. So good, so far.

Volvo Intorqueo

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My post isn't going to be as long and informational as some of the previous ones, but: They have two markets because the two groups of people want different things. Japanese people will pay more for flashier clubs are different colors. They are also, on average, slightly shorter and smaller in general, than the average American.

 

I just came from a members tourney and had the shattering experience of trying to hide my 20 year old clubs. :) My bag was surrounded by the latest and greatest both from Japan and the U.S.A. If ever I felt the need for new and shinier stuff, that was the moment. I have newer stuff but, to date, regardless that I can play with them, they don't really feel right in my hands.

 

I think that was a small taste of what it feels like to be a Japanese who spends almost all his golfing life on the range where your bag is constantly on display and friends and neighbors visit your bay to pass the time with a bit of chat and gossip. For sure the set's features will be a conversation point and a compliment on the sets beauty and feel will go far towards satisfaction. The range is also a place where satisfaction can come from experimenting and comparison with no cost to your score. If you think about the cost of a couple of rounds as against a new set for friends and neighbors to admire and compliment you on, there is reason to lean in the direction of the latest and greatest. Learning a new set can be very pleasant especially if you don't have to slog after the ball. :lol:

 

I joined that members tourney by accident. I happened to be awake at the time. Most of time I'll be on the fairways where my companions only see where my ball went and concern themselves only with my score. My priorities and needs are different.

 

 

Shambles

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Thanks Shambles, again I appreciate your insight into a world I know very little about. Just a couple of questions or points of discussion.

I think I remember reading in one of your posts that it is very expensive to play on a course in Japan. And very difficult to get a tee time. Can you give me a general figure for a typical greens fee?

It does stand to reason that skipping the fees would give you the money to sport a more "display" type set.

My second question is about the life on the range. Are there range "rock stars"? Guys and gals who are the big deal at a particular driving range. Is this type of status available even if one never hits an actual course. Sort of the Tiger of range only golf.

Volvo Intorqueo

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Thanks Shambles, again I appreciate your insight into a world I know very little about. Just a couple of questions or points of discussion.

I think I remember reading in one of your posts that it is very expensive to play on a course in Japan. And very difficult to get a tee time. Can you give me a general figure for a typical greens fee?

It does stand to reason that skipping the fees would give you the money to sport a more "display" type set.

My second question is about the life on the range. Are there range "rock stars"? Guys and gals who are the big deal at a particular driving range. Is this type of status available even if one never hits an actual course. Sort of the Tiger of range only golf.

 

As I stated earlier, my knowledge is dated. I picked that stuff up from golf magazine articles way way back. It was also supported by some Time magazine article on Japan and some talk with Japanese tourists who did not speak a lot of English. I would think that by this time there would be more golf courses in Japan but I really don't know. Back then there were very few and enormously expensive plus it took a while for even a member to get a tee time. Back then it made economic sense for avid golfers to fly to my country on a weekend, stay at a hotel and spend the weekend playing golf. They would fly back home in the early hours of Monday to arrive with just enough time to get to work.

 

To me the range is like a social club and regulars get to know each other. There were times in the past that I preferred to be on the range rather than on the fairways. I got to hit the ball with less agony over misses. :huh: There were drinks and food available and plenty of friends coming in and out who could comment on your development or lack thereof.

 

The range I went to regularly was also populated by up and coming local pros, regular tour pros and jun golfers with ambition as well as a flock of eager no hopes amongst whom I was unhappily a part of. On any day I could see people who were just learning and people who were seeing their last days in the peace of striking the ball as well as their tired old bodies could manage. It is a magical place for me. I don't recall any stars. There were great strikers and a lot of very poor strikers but all were polite and friendly. You were free to quietly watch anyone you wanted to.

 

 

Shambles

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From my conversations with Japanese clients and customers at the store, golf in Japan is not as expensive nor as inaccessible as it was 6-8 years ago.

 

Green fees have not increased proportionally as to what cost of living has increased. Teetimes no longer have to be booked 3 months in advance. 2-3 weeks is now available.

 

These are experiences of people whom I know that stay 3-4 months here then the rest of the year in Japan.

 

I do not know if the reason is the global recession or the now readily available golf tours to the rest of SE Asia.

 

A Japanese friend who is currently training his 14 year old to be a professional someday is spending US1,500 for a golf tour for him and his son to Thailand. The package includes airfare, 5 nights in a 4 star hotel, 5 rounds of golf (inclusive of cart and caddy) at 3 very good courses right outside Bangkok. That is from the Philippines. If from Japan he would have needed to add $300 more.

 

I guess the courses in Japan are getting less play and need to compete price wise. They are still high, around $200 for a non peak season teetime IIRC. I will ask the quality of the courses with that green fee range next time I talk to a Japanese customer.

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From my conversations with Japanese clients and customers at the store, golf in Japan is not as expensive nor as inaccessible as it was 6-8 years ago.

 

Green fees have not increased proportionally as to what cost of living has increased. Teetimes no longer have to be booked 3 months in advance. 2-3 weeks is now available.

 

These are experiences of people whom I know that stay 3-4 months here then the rest of the year in Japan.

 

I do not know if the reason is the global recession or the now readily available golf tours to the rest of SE Asia.

 

A Japanese friend who is currently training his 14 year old to be a professional someday is spending US1,500 for a golf tour for him and his son to Thailand. The package includes airfare, 5 nights in a 4 star hotel, 5 rounds of golf (inclusive of cart and caddy) at 3 very good courses right outside Bangkok. That is from the Philippines. If from Japan he would have needed to add $300 more.

 

I guess the courses in Japan are getting less play and need to compete price wise. They are still high, around $200 for a non peak season teetime IIRC. I will ask the quality of the courses with that green fee range next time I talk to a Japanese customer.

 

Do you expect that we will see a similar price drop/leveling in the field of equipment in Japan?

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I would hope so but honestly I have no idea. I just observe what is happening. I don't get to make business decisions. The only decisions I make is helping decide what to order and how much from both US and JDM suppliers because what we carry is limited to what we can afford to stock.

 

The world is getting smaller and as people get aware of available products the market lines will have huge gray areas. Lower shipping costs is a big thing as well- Once in a while I check how much to send a hardwood putter rack from your shop to me :)

 

I will say I think the bigger JDM OEMs (TM, Callaway, Titleist)that have a current worldwide presence will probably have prices drop a bit. Like I mentioned I live and own a store in small market where both JDM and US equipment are available. For the JDM stuff to sell I have seen that they have to come down in price a bit. Even then we have to make an extra effort to explain the shaft upgrades available in the JDM equipment and that is the reason for the $40-50 difference in drivers, and things like the JDM R9 irons with the silver badges actually have the same specs the R9 TPs with black badges in the US market but the shafts are very different NS Pro vs KB Tours. They actually compete against themselves and they will have to address that soon.

 

I do not see the boutique JDM brands like Gold's Factory, etc coming down at all. The product output is so small that as long as they get marketed well enough they will sell everything at the margins they want.

 

The interesting JDM OEMs to watch will be the JDM companies that have the financial strength to make a run in the US but are they willing to because of the need to be competitive in pricing. Companies like Daiwa/Seiko-On Off-Impress-Fourteen-PRGR-etc. Tourstage seems to have finally settled in on the Tourstage - Bridgestone plan. Srixon is making a good run but they bought out Cleveland and the distribution/marketing system that was already in place to do it. Even Srixon has held back in the sense that they did not bring in their most prestigious/premium name brand in Japan which is XXIO (nice name :) ). Those are $600 drivers and $1,100 irons.

 

Wow I better stop rambling soon. I'll go to PM for the next couple of questions. I'm using up too much bandwidth.

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Thank you XXIO and Shambles for your detailed answers in this thread. This is an area of the world that I have not traveled to and I know very little about.

Your knowledge and time to share it is appreciated very much. :)

Volvo Intorqueo

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I would hope so but honestly I have no idea. I just observe what is happening. I don't get to make business decisions. The only decisions I make is helping decide what to order and how much from both US and JDM suppliers because what we carry is limited to what we can afford to stock.

 

The world is getting smaller and as people get aware of available products the market lines will have huge gray areas. Lower shipping costs is a big thing as well- Once in a while I check how much to send a hardwood putter rack from your shop to me :)

 

I will say I think the bigger JDM OEMs (TM, Callaway, Titleist)that have a current worldwide presence will probably have prices drop a bit. Like I mentioned I live and own a store in small market where both JDM and US equipment are available. For the JDM stuff to sell I have seen that they have to come down in price a bit. Even then we have to make an extra effort to explain the shaft upgrades available in the JDM equipment and that is the reason for the $40-50 difference in drivers, and things like the JDM R9 irons with the silver badges actually have the same specs the R9 TPs with black badges in the US market but the shafts are very different NS Pro vs KB Tours. They actually compete against themselves and they will have to address that soon.

 

I do not see the boutique JDM brands like Gold's Factory, etc coming down at all. The product output is so small that as long as they get marketed well enough they will sell everything at the margins they want.

 

The interesting JDM OEMs to watch will be the JDM companies that have the financial strength to make a run in the US but are they willing to because of the need to be competitive in pricing. Companies like Daiwa/Seiko-On Off-Impress-Fourteen-PRGR-etc. Tourstage seems to have finally settled in on the Tourstage - Bridgestone plan. Srixon is making a good run but they bought out Cleveland and the distribution/marketing system that was already in place to do it. Even Srixon has held back in the sense that they did not bring in their most prestigious/premium name brand in Japan which is XXIO (nice name :) ). Those are $600 drivers and $1,100 irons.

 

Wow I better stop rambling soon. I'll go to PM for the next couple of questions. I'm using up too much bandwidth.

 

The world is getting small when a guy working out of his garage can send putter racks internationally. :D I'd love to add the Philippines (right?) to Canada on my list of "Countries with Saternus Woodworking racks."

 

That's an interesting point about the JDM boutiques vs JDM OEMs, in that regard I guess it's very similar to the US. Many of our boutique companies are keeping prices as is, because of the low volume while the OEMs fight for a piece of a shrinking pie.

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I'll also not do a big long post, but just repeat what I've heard about one of the main reasons for the Asian-specific product. In addition to the cultural differences for materials, designs, and graphics, I've heard the general physical differences -- the avg height and such -- dictates different standard fare in clubs.

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Just a small thought on the clubweight etc. The differences were really noticeable 10 years ago when most steel shafts in the US were the DG variety.

 

I agree it is still there to some extent in irons. Most JDM irons will have NS Pro 950s as the stock steel shaft. Most US irons will have a 115-125 gram steel shaft. However that line is getting blurry. I see a lot of US stock offerings (when we have to order inventory) getting to be around 100-110 grams nowadays.

 

In drivers all manufacturers in all markets are already around 46" and 50 grams, whether they fit you or not be damned.

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I'll also not do a big long post, but just repeat what I've heard about one of the main reasons for the Asian-specific product. In addition to the cultural differences for materials, designs, and graphics, I've heard the general physical differences -- the avg height and such -- dictates different standard fare in clubs.

 

There might have been a time when such matters as physical differences counted heavily but I doubt it's lasted to today. I have seen too many Asians towering over me and I'm pretty sure I was one of the taller Asian guys when I was younger. As to cultural differences, it's possible in terms of graphics but culture is also gaining a commonality world wide thanks to the availability of the Internet, satellite TV and cable. We are no longer restricted in our viewing pleasure to local programming and the differences in taste for manners of dress and behaviour do show and have an effect. Time and Newsweek used to be my only source for international viewpoints but these days all I have to do is turn on my computer abd scan the chat groups for whatever subjects interest me. I can also access the newspapers of other countries and see what those guys are thinking about over there. I think it's fun to do so and my only limitation is the time I can give it. ;)

 

Some of us might want to believe that Japan has some secrets available for their Japan only golf clubs. I'm more of the opinion that Japan pays the price of their golf clubs as dictated by their economy and local taxes in the same way that the States pays for it's own. I doubt either produces clubs that are significantly advantageous to the other, though with the wealth of choices available these days the hapless golfer might be so innundated by choices that he clasps the one that fits closely to his breast and desperately screams this is the best. It isn't but it does work for him and if he is willing to buy it, I dare not argue the point.

 

Listen to others but make your own decision. :)

 

 

Shambles

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xxio and shambles, thank you again for your insight. this is a thread that I can not add relevant content to and I just wanted to let you both know that when I see that one of you is listed as making the last post, I truly look forward to reading what you have to say

I thanked you before, but thank you

Volvo Intorqueo

All the cool kids follow me on twitter: @GolfspyDave

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xxio and shambles, thank you again for your insight. this is a thread that I can not add relevant content to and I just wanted to let you both know that when I see that one of you is listed as making the last post, I truly look forward to reading what you have to say

I thanked you before, but thank you

 

 

I appreciate the thank you. I have been on so many boards since the old GD board (No, I'm not that old) and the original iteration of GEA. As an equipment junkie then and as a small store owner now it never ceases to amaze me what one can learn from a customer, a distributor/supplier, or even the guy tire-kicking in the store.I'm just passing on what I think I have learned.

 

I will say JDM companies R&D is not scared to push the envelop. From multi-layer balls...the Strata was the first multi-layer ball in the US but the Precept Double Cover Tour and Dynawing Double Cover were released in Japan more than a year before, to forged undercut irons, to lightweight shafts, to multi-weave shafts, and now sub 300 gram drivers. Japan was seemingly always ahead.

 

Whether the tech gains are big enough or are worth the added extra $$ now or waiting maybe a year or two is up to us. I generally never have the latest and the greatest JDM stuff. My wallet cannot handle it.

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What an interesting thread! I found mygolfspy because I was searching for information on forged Japanese clubs. I don't even remember why I was doing that! The different markets and products available is fascinating to me, not because I'm ever likely to buy a JDM product, but just because I think its interesting to see the differences.

 

I spent a summer in Japan in my teens, and my host father was a "range golfer". He took me and my host brother to the range with him once, and it was a BIG DEAL, kind of similar to what it was for us as kids when the whole family would take the day and go to the amusement park! I remember my host brother telling me "its so cool you're here, he hardly EVER lets me go with him!" We went to one of those big multilevel ranges and spent a good portion of the day there, had lunch and the balls were seemingly rationed to us teenagers! I have no idea what that day cost him, I was oblivious to it at the time. I was not a golfer at that time, so didn't really know what to look for, but looking back on it now it was similar to what its like for me now to go to my clubs range. My host father was hanging out, visiting with his friends, it was his social time. In the time I was there, he only played one actual round of golf that I know of, and he was pumped about it!

 

Anyhow, thanks for all the info xxio and Shambles, don't hesitate to post on this topic, I find it very interesting to hear perspectives on the game from around the world!

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SCOR 42,46,50,54,58* - SCOR/KBS Genius S
STX Robert Ingman Envision TR 35", Iomic grip

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I will say I think the bigger JDM OEMs (TM, Callaway, Titleist)that have a current worldwide presence will probably have prices drop a bit. Like I mentioned I live and own a store in small market where both JDM and US equipment are available. For the JDM stuff to sell I have seen that they have to come down in price a bit. Even then we have to make an extra effort to explain the shaft upgrades available in the JDM equipment and that is the reason for the $40-50 difference in drivers, and things like the JDM R9 irons with the silver badges actually have the same specs the R9 TPs with black badges in the US market but the shafts are very different NS Pro vs KB Tours. They actually compete against themselves and they will have to address that soon.

 

I do not see the boutique JDM brands like Gold's Factory, etc coming down at all. The product output is so small that as long as they get marketed well enough they will sell everything at the margins they want.

 

The interesting JDM OEMs to watch will be the JDM companies that have the financial strength to make a run in the US but are they willing to because of the need to be competitive in pricing. Companies like Daiwa/Seiko-On Off-Impress-Fourteen-PRGR-etc. Tourstage seems to have finally settled in on the Tourstage - Bridgestone plan. Srixon is making a good run but they bought out Cleveland and the distribution/marketing system that was already in place to do it. Even Srixon has held back in the sense that they did not bring in their most prestigious/premium name brand in Japan which is XXIO (nice name :blink: ). Those are $600 drivers and $1,100 irons.

 

Wow I better stop rambling soon. I'll go to PM for the next couple of questions. I'm using up too much bandwidth.

 

I agree 100% with your take on the Japanese stuff. I had the opportunity to hit the Honma, Fourteen, and Maruman (sp?) drivers with a variety of ludicrously priced shafts. There was no noticeable performance improvement from top of the line USA drivers. Frankly, to borrow a phrase from Shania Twain "that don't impress me." After I had dropped a nice chunk of change on a driver I asked the fitter point blank about the supposedly superior Japanese products. While he said he believes Muira does have an edge with irons, it is not a coincidence that very few of the Tour/Mini-Tour players he fits play american equipment. He further asserted that it is especially telling what the Mini-Tour guys are doing because they have no financial incentive to choose their equipment. While they are not loaded, they would spend almost anything for an edge.

 

While I have not played golf in Japan, I have played with Japanese golfers in the Philippines. On a scale of 1-10,I consider myself a solid 8 as a club ho. These guys put me to shame and they were amazed at how "well I played with that equipment." It actually got nasty in one case.

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I agree 100% with your take on the Japanese stuff. I had the opportunity to hit the Honma, Fourteen, and Maruman (sp?) drivers with a variety of ludicrously priced shafts. There was no noticeable performance improvement from top of the line USA drivers. Frankly, to borrow a phrase from Shania Twain "that don't impress me." After I had dropped a nice chunk of change on a driver I asked the fitter point blank about the supposedly superior Japanese products. While he said he believes Muira does have an edge with irons, it is not a coincidence that very few of the Tour/Mini-Tour players he fits play american equipment. He further asserted that it is especially telling what the Mini-Tour guys are doing because they have no financial incentive to choose their equipment. While they are not loaded, they would spend almost anything for an edge.

 

While I have not played golf in Japan, I have played with Japanese golfers in the Philippines. On a scale of 1-10,I consider myself a solid 8 as a club ho. These guys put me to shame and they were amazed at how "well I played with that equipment." It actually got nasty in one case.

 

 

The target market of the higher end brands are the "executive" golfers with money to burn. This means most shafts will be soft tipped and "mis-marked" for flex. The stiff will usually fit the 85 to 99 mph driver swing. The best is to pay the upcharge (imagine it even gets more expensive!!) and get the "Tour" shafts.

 

Sad that you had a bad experience with Japanese golfers. I play with a few of them at the club every so often. They are very nice and are actually quite humble about their equipment. I'm usually the one who has to point out that the shaft they are using retails for $400-500 and I couldn't afford to play a shaft like that.

 

Nice insight on the Nationwide Tour. The local pros here in the Philippines are in the same boat. Even when sponsored they will tend to hang on to older models because they have made money/are more comfortable with those. They will use the latest update of the bag/hat/shirt/headcover though.

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I agree 100% with your take on the Japanese stuff. I had the opportunity to hit the Honma, Fourteen, and Maruman (sp?) drivers with a variety of ludicrously priced shafts. There was no noticeable performance improvement from top of the line USA drivers. Frankly, to borrow a phrase from Shania Twain "that don't impress me." After I had dropped a nice chunk of change on a driver I asked the fitter point blank about the supposedly superior Japanese products. While he said he believes Muira does have an edge with irons, it is not a coincidence that very few of the Tour/Mini-Tour players he fits play american equipment. He further asserted that it is especially telling what the Mini-Tour guys are doing because they have no financial incentive to choose their equipment. While they are not loaded, they would spend almost anything for an edge.

 

While I have not played golf in Japan, I have played with Japanese golfers in the Philippines. On a scale of 1-10,I consider myself a solid 8 as a club ho. These guys put me to shame and they were amazed at how "well I played with that equipment." It actually got nasty in one case.

 

You would have to have been friends with that person for him to be so impolite towards you as to criticize your equipment. Either that or he spoke English poorly and did not realize the implications of his words. Personally, all the foreigners I've met on the fairways are very polite and considerate in a formal sense and it is the locals that are more likely to be demanding, but even then in a polite and very correct way. However I have noticed that they can be very short or familiar with each other.

 

Some equipment cost more than others. It does not ensure nor preclude performance by either, if they suit the hands that hold. If I had difficulty finding something that works and could only find one in the expensive rack, I would probably spend the money, or make a note and a last desperate effort to find a cheaper alternative and then spend the money. Luckily, I happen to be one of those people who find satisfaction in old things and I have a lot of those here at home.

 

 

Shambles

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The target market of the higher end brands are the "executive" golfers with money to burn. This means most shafts will be soft tipped and "mis-marked" for flex. The stiff will usually fit the 85 to 99 mph driver swing. The best is to pay the upcharge (imagine it even gets more expensive!!) and get the "Tour" shafts.

 

Sad that you had a bad experience with Japanese golfers. I play with a few of them at the club every so often. They are very nice and are actually quite humble about their equipment. I'm usually the one who has to point out that the shaft they are using retails for $400-500 and I couldn't afford to play a shaft like that.

 

Nice insight on the Nationwide Tour. The local pros here in the Philippines are in the same boat. Even when sponsored they will tend to hang on to older models because they have made money/are more comfortable with those. They will use the latest update of the bag/hat/shirt/headcover though.

 

Thanks. I fell in love with one of those shafts (the Fubuki Alpha) and the fitter was quite skilled at recognizing a club ho and reeling him in. I had brought what I thought was plenty of cash ($700) from my stash so she who must be obeyed would not wrap the thing around my neck. After the $100 fitting I was still 345 light, so that went on the card. She actually praised me for being good, but was curious why I had to buy it so far away. I told her I was trying to save money and she believed it. :unsure:

 

Just curious where you are in the Phils, I have played in Cebu on Mactan Island and up in Danao.

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You would have to have been friends with that person for him to be so impolite towards you as to criticize your equipment. Either that or he spoke English poorly and did not realize the implications of his words. Personally, all the foreigners I've met on the fairways are very polite and considerate in a formal sense and it is the locals that are more likely to be demanding, but even then in a polite and very correct way. However I have noticed that they can be very short or familiar with each other.

 

Some equipment cost more than others. It does not ensure nor preclude performance by either, if they suit the hands that hold. If I had difficulty finding something that works and could only find one in the expensive rack, I would probably spend the money, or make a note and a last desperate effort to find a cheaper alternative and then spend the money. Luckily, I happen to be one of those people who find satisfaction in old things and I have a lot of those here at home.

 

 

Shambles

 

Shambles, sorry I did not make my initial post more clear. With that one exception, the Japanese guys were all very nice, but apparently any single digit capper in Japan would not show his face without at least 2.5-3K USD in his bag. Furthermore, I take my back-up equipment with me in case China Air decides to send my stuff to Malaysia. This particular bozo was just a racist. He made several derogatory remarks about Filipinos, cursed the staff, and was just a world class *******.

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Phana,,

 

I guess I am lucky that both equipment options are available to me and at a good price (I'm a part owner of a small golf shop). I get to try demos of a few things or I know who bought what from the store and can seek them out to get their opinions on the new things (sometimes even get to borrow them) before I drop the $300 on the shaft.

 

There is a set of the Anser Forged irons in the shop with the stock Japanese Graphite Design that I hope someone buys soon so I can try them out.

 

What do you know, I am based in Cebu. I only play Mactan Island Golf Club and Club Filipino in Danao about 1x a year. I'm a member both at Cebu Country Club and Alta Vista Golf so most of my rounds are there.

 

Mactan has improved a lot over the past year. You would not recognize it from 3 years ago. I would say it is 3-4xs better. Club Filipino underwent some controversy in the election of their Directors so I don't know how it is now.

 

Give me a shout if you have plans of coming down again.

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