Talent vs. Potential

[JMiller]

I stumbled across this article when poking around reading on the subject a little --> http://personalexcellence.co/blog/10000-hours-to-develop-talent/

 

All of the following quotes have come from Mr. Nicklaus, I wounder if we could draw the conclusion where he thought "talent" or "potential" made him successful?

 

"Confidence is the most important single factor in this game, and no matter how great your natural talent, there is only one way to obtain and sustain it: work."

 

"He had a lot of talent, but didn't have much dedication, wasn't organized, didn't know how to learn, didn't know how to comprehend what he was doing, didn't try to learn how to get better."

 

"I'm a firm believer that in the theory that people only do their best at things they truly enjoy. It is difficult to excel at something you don't enjoy."

 

"My ability to concentrate and work toward that goal has been my greatest asset."

 

"Resolve never to quit, never to give up, no matter what the situation."

 

"Sometimes the biggest problem is in your head. You've got to believe you can play a shot instead of wondering where your next bad shot is coming from."

 

"Success depends almost entirely on how effectively you learn to manage the game's two ultimate adversaries: the course and yourself."

[revkev]

Easy to say all of those thing if you have Jack Nicklaus' talent.

 

I think it's preposterous to write a book that says anyone could do any activity 10,000 hours(or whatever the number is) and be great at it. There is a top end for every one in every endeavor.

 

Since RR brought up music I'll play for 2,000 - I was a music major in college - In fact I was an all state trumpet player for three year's in High School. I'm pretty good, fully capable of making a living teaching music and playing in regional type of musical groups on the side. My dream and my goal however was to play trumpet in a major symphony orchestra. (Perhaps the Lord will grant me this dream in heaven.) I don't know how many hours I've practiced in my life but I was in the 8 to 10 hour range every day while in college which is well over the requisite 10,000 hours. At the same time there was a young man (not so young now) named Phil Smith a few year's ahead of me at school. He also practiced lots of hours (everyone did.) He's been the principal trumpet player in the New York Philharmonic for 30 years. Why? Because he has more talent and he also worked hard - very hard. I had a good friend in college named Jim Hynes. He's had a great career as a studio musician in NYC - one of the top guys around. Why? Because he has more talent and he worked hard - very hard. But Sreech (Jim) would never be able to play in a major symphony (it takes that much move talent and work to do that.)

 

It takes both - you have to have talent and you have to work very hard to make it to the top of your field - sometimes hard work can over come superior talent - hard work is not overcoming a lack of talent - That's something that people often miss about PED's. (Which I do not condone.) The whole point of PED's isn't to take short cuts - it's to enable the athletes who take them to work harder. Still cheating mind you but just another bit of evidence that it's the combination of talent and hard work not one to the excluscion of the other.

 

Oh and while we're at it not only do you have to work hard but you have to work smart as well.

 

It's a lame excuse to say to someone after they've done their 10,000 hours that they just don't work on the right thing or that they limited themselves in their mind. Really? I think I don't have the proper bone structure to have the embouchure that I need to hit the high notes that I could hit despite multiple attempts at the changes that should have gotten me there.

 

How about just trying a different line of work?

[GolfSpy WD]

Easy to say all of those thing if you have Jack Nicklaus' talent.

 

I think it's preposterous to write a book that says anyone could do any activity 10,000 hours(or whatever the number is) and be great at it. There is a top end for every one in every endeavor.

 

Since RR brought up music I'll play for 2,000 - I was a music major in college - In fact I was an all state trumpet player for three year's in High School. I'm pretty good, fully capable of making a living teaching music and playing in regional type of musical groups on the side. My dream and my goal however was to play trumpet in a major symphony orchestra. (Perhaps the Lord will grant me this dream in heaven.) I don't know how many hours I've practiced in my life but I was in the 8 to 10 hour range every day while in college which is well over the requisite 10,000 hours. At the same time there was a young man (not so young now) named Phil Smith a few year's ahead of me at school. He also practiced lots of hours (everyone did.) He's been the principal trumpet player in the New York Philharmonic for 30 years. Why? Because he has more talent and he also worked hard - very hard. I had a good friend in college named Jim Hynes. He's had a great career as a studio musician in NYC - one of the top guys around. Why? Because he has more talent and he worked hard - very hard. But Sreech (Jim) would never be able to play in a major symphony (it takes that much move talent and work to do that.)

 

It takes both - you have to have talent and you have to work very hard to make it to the top of your field - sometimes hard work can over come superior talent - hard work is not overcoming a lack of talent - That's something that people often miss about PED's. (Which I do not condone.) The whole point of PED's isn't to take short cuts - it's to enable the athletes who take them to work harder. Still cheating mind you but just another bit of evidence that it's the combination of talent and hard work not one to the excluscion of the other.

 

Oh and while we're at it not only do you have to work hard but you have to work smart as well.

 

It's a lame excuse to say to someone after they've done their 10,000 hours that they just don't work on the right thing or that they limited themselves in their mind. Really? I think I don't have the proper bone structure to have the embouchure that I need to hit the high notes that I could hit despite multiple attempts at the changes that should have gotten me there.

 

How about just trying a different line of work?

 

I pretty much agree with everything Rev said. Otherwise, every player on the PGA tour wouldn't be distinguishable and we'd have no one like Nicklaus or Woods. That said, you can be pretty darn good at anything assuming you work hard and don't have a physical or mental handicap to stop you. My ultimate goal is to reach 0 handicap and I'm sure as hell I can do it. I don't ever expect to play as well as Tiger Woods. In fact, I think it'll take me a lot longer to reach 0 than it would many others because of natural talent.

 

Almost always, people I've seen who believes there's no real ceiling to potential have natural talent and therefore don't understand the frustration those without that built in talent have to go through.

[JMiller]

Again, Mr. Nicklaus didn't go out and shot a dang -10 under the first time he played no one does that I know about.

 

He took up the game at 10 and on his first nine holes ever shot 51. I don't see how that is natural born talent. If he was born to play golf and is something special compared to everyone else he would have broken par the first time ever playing.

 

Someone being born with talent is ridicules, talent is developed and that in return turns into potential. You develop all the talent in the world but never live up to your full potential thanks to a lack of work ethic at a given point.

[GolfSpy WD]

Again, Mr. Nicklaus didn't go out and shot a dang -10 under the first time he played no one does that I know about.

 

He took up the game at 10 and on his first nine holes ever shot 51. I don't see how that is natural born talent. If he was born to play golf and is something special compared to everyone else he would have broken par the first time ever playing.

 

Someone being born with talent is ridicules, talent is developed and that in return turns into potential. You develop all the talent in the world but never live up to your full potential thanks to a lack of work ethic at a given point.

 

But where was Nicklaus one or three years after starting to play? I can tell you 12 years after he started he turned pro. There are many very good golfers on these forums that have been playing for a lot longer and aren't anywhere near pro.

 

The other thing to remember is most amateurs don't ever honestly break a 100, so going out the very first time you've played and shoot 51 isn't that terrible, especially for a 10 year old playing in a day where clubs had zero forgiveness.

[JMiller]

I'll use myself as a perfect example, I learned to play golf at like 5 or 6 years old. I went and took lessons and I can even recall my very first birdie as a 6 or 7 year old on a par 4 It was a slight down hill dog leg left, I hit a good drive center of the fairway, hit an approach shot to 5 feet and made my putt (pretty good memory right I just replayed the hole in my head lol, it was from the ladies tee but whatever). I stopped playing golf at roughly 8 and started playing ice hockey, it interested me way more then golf did. I played to a AA travel team level, it got way to serious and I started not liking it, so I stopped playing when I was 18.

 

I picked up golf again when I started working at a golf course in college as a greens mower. Worked there 2.5 seasons so 23 to 25, the last season I only worked the spring time as in the summer I was getting a internship in my degree (well was supposed to) ended up just playing a ton of golf that summer. I worked my way down to a 1.1 and a solid 1-3 handicap by time I graduated college. After not playing for a season the summer that I graduated college the first time I played again I played to a 9 handicap. My handicap slowly started climbing with my once a month scores in the high 80s and low 90s. That was frustrating to me, I knew I was better but with a lack of practice on the course i couldn't score well.

 

Now that I have moved and got a new job with a membership at a course where I play 9 holes 3 to 4 times a week and 18 holes 1 or 2 times a week depending, i have seen my handicap dropping again. Short game is coming back but more importantly I have the time to fix issues in my swing. I joined Duke in middle of March started at a 9 handicap from the gold tees, then 9 from the tips. Then the handicap dropped a little down to an 8ish and held there for some time. Now it has dropped like a rock over the last month. Down from an 6.3 the last revision and the next revision is looking like it will be a 4.8... On 4/1/2012 I was a 9.2 on 7/15/2012 it is likely i will be a 4.8... That is a pretty big droop in 106 days, it is not because I am naturally talented at the sport, it is because I work my a$$ off to be a good player. I have people ask me all the time "did you play in high school or college?", my answer is no, I really didn't play on a golf team at all my entire life. I tell them the full story and people always appear shocked. What they don't relieve is that I have put in a ton of hours into my game and honestly I think about my game all the time even not on the course, mentally preparing myself.

 

I have to wounder where I would be now had I stuck to golf instead of playing other sports and had a love for the game as a child that I do now. I have a ton of developed "talent" over the years and see myself as having the "potential" to be a scratch or better player with hard work. Will I make it on tour as a 28 year old that I am now, unlikely. Maybe the goal is more Champions Tour, I have 22 more years to get my game developed for that at least

 

Talent comes down to the proper training, time and effort a love for what you are doing. If you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life. Potential comes down to the amount of developed talent you have and what you do with it.

 

 

It doesn't matter either way if you feel that it is developed or "natural", either way if you have the mind set of "I am not good enough" or "I can not do that", how on earth are you going to succeed at a goal?

[GolfSpy WD]

It doesn't matter either way if you feel that it is developed or "natural", either way if you have the mind set of "I am not good enough" or "I can not do that", how on earth are you going to succeed at a goal?

 

Let me address this point first because in a way the conversation's diverged into two different points. I agree completely that you cannot have a defeatist attitude, but expectations need to be set at realistic levels or you'll overburden yourself. I'm a carrot on a stick kind of guy. My goal right now is 10 handicap (assuming Golfshot ever updates my handicap or I use a program that actually works). My ultimate goal is 0 and I fully believe if I commit myself enough I can do it.

 

Now onto your other point...

 

I'll use myself as a perfect example, I learned to play golf at like 5 or 6 years old. I went and took lessons and I can even recall my very first birdie as a 6 or 7 year old on a par 4 It was a slight down hill dog leg left, I hit a good drive center of the fairway, hit an approach shot to 5 feet and made my putt (pretty good memory right I just replayed the hole in my head lol, it was from the ladies tee but whatever). I stopped playing golf at roughly 8 and started playing ice hockey, it interested me way more then golf did. I played to a AA travel team level, it got way to serious and I started not liking it, so I stopped playing when I was 18.

 

I picked up golf again when I started working at a golf course in college as a greens mower. Worked there 2.5 seasons so 23 to 25, the last season I only worked the spring time as in the summer I was getting a internship in my degree (well was supposed to) ended up just playing a ton of golf that summer. I worked my way down to a 1.1 and a solid 1-3 handicap by time I graduated college. After not playing for a season the summer that I graduated college the first time I played again I played to a 9 handicap. My handicap slowly started climbing with my once a month scores in the high 80s and low 90s. That was frustrating to me, I knew I was better but with a lack of practice on the course i couldn't score well.

 

Now that I have moved and got a new job with a membership at a course where I play 9 holes 3 to 4 times a week and 18 holes 1 or 2 times a week depending, i have seen my handicap dropping again. Short game is coming back but more importantly I have the time to fix issues in my swing. I joined Duke in middle of March started at a 9 handicap from the gold tees, then 9 from the tips. Then the handicap dropped a little down to an 8ish and held there for some time. Now it has dropped like a rock over the last month. Down from an 6.3 the last revision and the next revision is looking like it will be a 4.8... On 4/1/2012 I was a 9.2 on 7/15/2012 it is likely i will be a 4.8... That is a pretty big droop in 106 days, it is not because I am naturally talented at the sport, it is because I work my a$$ off to be a good player. I have people ask me all the time "did you play in high school or college?", my answer is no, I really didn't play on a golf team at all my entire life. I tell them the full story and people always appear shocked. What they don't relieve is that I have put in a ton of hours into my game and honestly I think about my game all the time even not on the course, mentally preparing myself.

 

I have to wounder where I would be now had I stuck to golf instead of playing other sports and had a love for the game as a child that I do now. I have a ton of developed "talent" over the years and see myself as having the "potential" to be a scratch or better player with hard work. Will I make it on tour as a 28 year old that I am now, unlikely. Maybe the goal is more Champions Tour, I have 22 more years to get my game developed for that at least

 

Talent comes down to the proper training, time and effort a love for what you are doing. If you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life. Potential comes down to the amount of developed talent you have and what you do with it.

 

Good story and probably not unlike many people out there. Myself I played once when I was 15 and started gradually about 3 years ago. I actually played very well that first time out with a birdie and two pars and was terrible for a long time after. I didn't get really serious until mid last year and I still consider myself terrible with scores in the mid 80s - mid 90s. Since I can only play once a week with a range session or two, I know that I simply don't have the reps to get to a 0, but eventually I'll have the free time for that. In the meantime I'm sure I can get to a 10. If I reach that, I'm sure I can get to 5 (and so on)

 

Back on topic though, do you honestly think if you kept playing through high school and college you would be a pro right now? It's possible. Do you think you'd be competing against Tiger head to head every time he's hot? Again, possible. However I'd like to point to countless players on the Hooters tour who have worked their assess off all their lives but simply can't win on the Web.com tour (still sounds weird saying that). Same goes for Web.com players who can't break into the PGA. Same goes for PGA players who can never get a win. Perhaps all these people need better coaches, but more likely they've reached their potential. There's simply too much data out there to confirm this point.

 

Again, I'm not saying 99% of us can't reach a 0 handicap, I'm just saying there is a limit. Football and basketball are easier to see that limit, you have to be a certain size or you simply can't make it with very very few exceptions. With golf and baseball it's all about coordination so it's very hard to tell if you've got it or not.

 

TLDR point: I play for fun and will always push myself to do better, but in no way do I expect to make it to the PGA tour.

[revkev]

I'm not out to make anyone mad here I've just lived enough life to know there is such a thing as talent and it becomes obvious very quickly - 51 at Scitio the first nine holes at 10 years old is talent plain and simple.

 

There are precious few people at the top of their profession in art or music or sports who didn't exhibit talent (who weren't better than every one else by a mile) at a very early age. I've certainly had people ask me if I ever thought of being a professiona golfer - the answer is sure and then I woke up - the talent gap between myself and a touring pro is too great - As wd just said it's more apparent in basketball and football because you need that size and speed that aren't there for me - those are a part of talent as well to.

 

None of this diminishes the need for work nor does it diminish whatever word you want to use for mental ability in a given field.

 

Is there really anyone here who thinks that he could have been Tiger Woods if only he had worked harder on his game? I'd say you're suffering from delusions of grandure.

 

Could there have been some golfers in the history of the world with Jack's talent or Tiger's talent who didn't work hard enough to develope it or who lacked their confidence - I'd have to think so but we'll never really know.

 

Read this well, it takes all three of those things talent, hard work, confidence - you aren't making it to the top without all three.

 

To state the obvious I'm sitting next to my daughter who has cerebral palsey - What would 10,000 hours of golf practice get her? Would she become Anneka Sorenstam on the golf course? Would she even be able to swing a club hard enough to make the ball move would be the better question - perhaps. She could try to be a golfer for 100 million hours - guess what - it's not happening - she's limited physically.

 

That's true of lots of people - it's just not as obvious

[Tyk]

I don't think anyone here disagrees that hard work and proper attitude are required to excel at anything. But at the top of every field, there is something beyond hard work and a good attitude that separates the very best from the rest. Call it talent, might as well.

 

Here's an interesting thought I had. How many very skilled golfers are there that are maybe capable of shooting the scores to be a champion, but simply don't have the mental makeup to do it when it counts? THAT is a truly mental component of the game that I imagine is fairly common. We never hear about these guys because if you can't do it, no one cares.

 

We have a guy kind of like that at our course. He's better than everyone else by a decent margin, regularly carding the best scores of the year on our course. However, he has won no club championships, and no match play titles. For whatever reason, he can't put it together when it matters. So, is that a lack of talent? I don't think so. He can strike the ball better than any of us, he can score better than any of us, but competition gets to him and he can't do it when he really has to. I'm curious what you guys think about that, how does that fit into the talent/hard work discussion?