Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Our Sponsors

I think all humans are programmed for success, but for some reason, we frequently find ways to limit ourselves. Reminds me of something Jack Burke Jr. wrote in his book, It's Only a Game. In 1952 he won 4 tournaments in a row on the PGA tour. He said after the 2nd win he could feel an element of doubt trying to creep in suggesting that he couldn't keep winning. He said it made him mad to think that something would limit his potential. He said you have to fight those feelings even though they are normal and come up with a way to dismiss them. He decided that his clubs didn't know how well they were playing so there was no reason his clubs couldn't keep playing well. And he won the next two tournaments.

 

Most of us would have let those thoughts end our streak early. So I'm wondering what made Jackie Burke fight through them? Was that talent? Or was it maybe recognizing his potential?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm with JMiller on this topic.

 

Talent is just the ability to learn at a higher speed than others. The development of that talent is a lot of hard work and can take as much time as others, but the talented will learn more and achieve more with the same amount of time and effort. It's irrelevant whatever endeavor you're engaged in. If you have the talent for it, you will simply learn and understand more within a given time and effort than others. Work is only hard for the incompetent. If you learn and understand it, it just takes time and effort that you may or may not choose to give.

 

To my mind everybody has Talent for something, but not everybody is willing to develop it. There may be obstacles to the development presented by personal circumstance or the absence of inspiring competition or simply the lack of access to the learning. Sometimes just rather sad and other times an unrecognized disaster. Whatever the case, Talent is not a guarantee of success. It's just a tool that others do not have and you yourself may not be aware you have, or choose to leave undeveloped because you choose other priorities. If you have the interest, you may choose to explore that interest and invest the time and effort to develop it, or just look for something else to do.

 

 

Shambles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think all humans are programmed for success, but for some reason, we frequently find ways to limit ourselves. Reminds me of something Jack Burke Jr. wrote in his book, It's Only a Game. In 1952 he won 4 tournaments in a row on the PGA tour. He said after the 2nd win he could feel an element of doubt trying to creep in suggesting that he couldn't keep winning. He said it made him mad to think that something would limit his potential. He said you have to fight those feelings even though they are normal and come up with a way to dismiss them. He decided that his clubs didn't know how well they were playing so there was no reason his clubs couldn't keep playing well. And he won the next two tournaments.

 

Most of us would have let those thoughts end our streak early. So I'm wondering what made Jackie Burke fight through them? Was that talent? Or was it maybe recognizing his potential?

 

It was simply a choice: he chose not to listen to the negative thoughts. No talent or magic in that, simply an awareness of what he was thinking and a decision to improve it.


Follow me on Twitter: @MattSaternus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting reading and sorry that it took me so long to get into this discussion!

 

Golf is a fascinating sport because everyone can play it and all of us can experience hitting great shots, making birdies (some of us eagles), it just seems as if the gap between ourselves and those who play on tour might be gapped with a bit more practice or a different swing or something like that.

 

Let's try another sport for a moment - Football - when I was a freshman in college I was 5'9" 165 with below average speed - I don't care how much I worked at it I was not making a career out of playing professional football and I'd take strong exception to anyone who would challenge that assumption. I was also not going to play basketball at a level beyond High School no matter what - I wasn't that athletically gifted.

 

I was very good at baseball because I loved it and busted my tail to improve at it. Anyone who knows me would tell you that I got the most out of my gifts and that got me to be a back up catcher in Division III - doesn't sound like much but I was all league in high school, hit over .300 with a wooden bat and could field my position very, very well.

 

To golf - when I started playing it seriously I hit it far enough to play professionally but was a bit behind because of the time and effort I spent on baseball so I practiced and practiced and practiced and got really good at it - I was never close to where I would have to be to do it for a living but I couldn/still can break par and if you saw me on a practice tee at that age you might think, "This guy is something." I wasn't.

 

I disagree that anyone can do anything they want because the evidence suggests that it's not true. We have differing genetics, different skill sets, intellectual capabilities, physical capabilities, etc., etc. About any sort of study that exists would bear my assumption out - there are intelligence tests, Einstein aced them whether he liked it or not - he didn't always ace school because it was boring for him - big shocker there!

 

So are there some people out there that are genetically predisposed to playing golf who aren't taking advantage of it because of lack of work - of course - there could be some in this discussion who fall into that category even. Do the guys on tour work their butts off and if they don't they disappear pretty quickly - you bet - as others have said John Daly comes quickly to mind here although who's to say he would have been so good had he been forced to practice and play sober. There are more highly skilled golfers in the world than the 400 or so who play on the two tours but their number is limited not universal - He says as his daughter with cerebral palsey calls out from the other room. Do you think that 10,000 golf shots would turn her into a professional golfer? If you do you believe in cruel and unusual punishment - she does however have a chance at being an Einstein.


Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Alpha Distanza 40 weak R flex shaft

Tour Exotics EX 10 3 wood

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,58

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wonderful post Rev. I was trying to say what you said!


Ping I20 8.5* - Aldila NV 65g S
Adams XTD Super Hybrid 15* - Stock Fubuki S
Adams DHY 21* - Stock Matrix Ozik White Tie S
Mizuno MP58 4-8 Irons - Fujikura MCI 100 S
SCOR 42,46,50,54,58* - SCOR/KBS Genius S
STX Robert Ingman Envision TR 35", Iomic grip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of the problem here is when you start talking about talent and potential, you are talking about the 90%. There remain the 10% outliers, where genetics and physical limitations (or bonuses) play into the equation. Toss those out, and now you have something to work with.

 

The argument I have always seen was that 90% of the people can be coached to perform at the 90% level, but that there will always be the 5% that are simply not capable of performing to that level, and 5% that are capable of exceeding that level.

 

The key element of success is twofold. Identifying the areas that an individually can perform above the 90% level and overcoming the fear of failure that is (in my experience) the biggest limiting factor in converting Potential into Reality.

 

The two words "I Can't" are one of the most powerful indicators of fear. The biggest challenge we face once we have identified potential beyond the 90% is erasing the fear of trying and failing. As an entrepreneur, I understand at a very personal level that failure, and the risk of failure is really the only guarantee. Having the temerity risk it with every step and decision is the one recurring element of reaching the maximum potential in all things, be it sports, love or business.


Dru - Owner, President & Janitor, Druware Software Designs

RH 18.0 Handicap in soggy Georgia 

WITB
* 1W 10.5* @ Hogan GS53 ( HZRDUS Smoke Black X-Stiff )
* 3W Hogan GS52 ( HZRDUS Smoke Black X-Stiff ) 
* 5W 18* Tailor-made AeroBurner ( Stock Stiff )
* 4I-AW @ Hogan Ft Worth
* 56 @ Cleveland RTX
* 60 @ Hogan Equalizer
* Carbon Ringo 1/4
* Snell MTB-X

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is my personal opinion that what separates the average person from tour players is nothing to do with physical ability. John Daily major champion out of shape and over weight most of his career. Zack Johnson short in height and short off the tee, also a major champion. Bubba Watson anything but a typical golf swing that is on tour also a major champion. Mental outlook on life and approach to golf is what separates the real greats from the good players.

 

Becoming physically fit is not that hard to do if you eat right and exercise properly, nutrition is a big part of the professional game now a days but I know nothing about it personally without consulting a nutritionist. I think that the ability to make a pretty good athlete and get down to a single digit really is not that hard taking the mental aspect out of the game.

 

All of the greats in history and some of the inventors of the most popular items on the market today might not have been the the best at something but they have always had one thing in common a optimistic outlook on life and the game of golf, let me give you a few examples of what I mean.

 

"I learn something new about the game almost every time I step on the course." ~ Ben Hogan (sounds optimistic to me)

"If we could have just screwed another head on his shoulders, he would have been the greatest golfer who ever lived." ~ Ben Hogan (hmm pattern of mental outlook?)

"Golf is a game that is played on a 5 inch course - the distance between your ears." ~ Bobby Jones

"I am the toughest golfer mentally" ~ Tiger Woods (in his prime this is all people seemed to talk about)

 

It is a mindset that allows people to be great at golf which can be learned over a lifetime if you know what to focus on. The physical aspects are easier then the mental ones. Ask Sergio Garcia about this mental approach to the game "I'm not good enough" what has he won lately? Look at Bubba Watson whom has admired has had a poor outlook on the golf course and has worked towards fixing it, him what did him win recently?

 

In short you can develop the mind and body to be good at any sport if you have the dedication and the proper outlook on failures so to speak. I see a failure more as a lesson learned to improve rather then "I suck" mentality, or at least I try to.

 

Golf is a different game then the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc because it is not a team sport and requires different aspects of ability, you really can't compare not become a PGa Tour Player to not becoming a NFL, MLB, NHL, etc professional player it is just not the same.


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revkev helped me to see a clearer distinction in this issue. He mentioned that at 5'9" 165 lbs he could not have played pro football. I tend to agree. As every basketball coach has said, "You can't coach tall." I can't argue that some people have the stature to play professional basketball and some don't. No one can force themselves to be taller, and, to an extent, there are probably limits to how strong or fast some of us might be.

 

What I'm more interested in is the skill. While I was not destined to play center in the NBA due to lack of height, I could have had skills equal to an NBA player in shooting, dribbling, passing, etc.

 

Does that distinction change/modify/help anyone's thoughts on the topic?


Follow me on Twitter: @MattSaternus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I'm more interested in is the skill. While I was not destined to play center in the NBA due to lack of height, I could have had skills equal to an NBA player in shooting, dribbling, passing, etc.

 

Does that distinction change/modify/help anyone's thoughts on the topic?

 

This is what I was getting at in my post above in more words, as always sometimes I get long winded when the point can be made in one line. Golf is much different game then other professional sports, it is really the only sport that you get paid for your performance that week taking endorsement deals out of the picture and just prize money.


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been remiss in participating in this discussion because the two times I started to say something, I ran out of time and had to devote my attention to work.:angry: The conversation has morphed a bit into can anyone become great at golf vs. any other sport.

 

As to the original question of talent vs. potential. Talent is the natural ability to do something. When I was a kid of 9, both my sisters took piano lessons one summer. I did not take piano lessons because the piano was a "sissy instrument" and real men did not take piano lessons. I went and spent the summer at my grandfather's farm. They would come home and practice for an hour a day each. When school started, they continued but I was always outside. But when the weather changed, I would have to listen to two hours of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star etc. Once they started playing more stuff, I became interested and my mother allowed me to play on it while she cooked dinner, provided Dad was not home. I would sit down and play the same things I had heard my sisters play. The problem was it would take them about an hour to figure it out, and I would play it in a few minutes. When Christmas started getting close, I decided I was tired of Clown on a tight rope, and started playing Christmas Carols. This really pissed my sisters off because "Momma, he is not even using the music." So I decided to learn to read music. This made them even madder. It seems I have a talent for music.

 

I later did take up instruments, drums, keyboards, guitars and had a high "potential" to go along with my natural "talents". I actually wrote some music for the high school band. I mean, pencil and paper and wrote down all the notes for the different instruments. I was even in a Rock n Roll band in the 80's and we made a record it was played on the radio and I wrote the piano introdution for it. But ultimately decided I did not pursue that as a career. In reality, it was a lot of work and I probably never made enough money to cover the expenses, and I would rather go the party than work at the party. Like in the Blues Brothers where their bar bill is more than the appearance fee. I also did not like working nights and weekends. I may have been able to achieve great things with my natural talent, but I did not care enough about it to reach my full potential. (I may have reached my full potential and it was not very high.:P ) Honestly, it was fun, but so was riding horses and I was not about to become a cowboy or a gunslinger.

 

I heard yesterday that Webb Simpson when he was 11 was taken out with a group of other kids to a golf course for the first time. They all played around and Webb shot 71 while all the others were in the 100's. He had serious talent as a golfer. He has been working at it and in a sport that crowns you the top of your profession if you win a major, well, he has reached his potential now. He may go on to win multiple majors. He is still only in his 3 year on tour with a regular Tour win, a Fed Ex playoff win, and now a US Open major championship. It is of course too soon to tell, but Webb may have much more "potential" than Bubba.

 

Obviously, they both have great talent but potential to me is the ceiling, the upper limit to where their talent will carry them. This brings in the other part of this discussion. Golf is a mental game. It takes physical talent and mental ability to achieve your full potential. Bubba and Webb are both almost at the same level right now although Bubba is older and more experienced. But Webb appears to have the mental advantage over Bubba's physical advantage. I believe in golf mental advantage beats physical advantage everytime.

 

In conclussion, talent is the physical component that allows you to be good at something. It is a combination of talent and mental attitude and aptitude that allows you to reach your full potential.

 

Edit. I watched two shows last night, one about Jack Nicklaus and one about Webb Simpson. Jack may have been the one to shot 71 at age 11 the first time. But the points about Bubba and Webb apply.


 

Driver:      :mizuno-small:  ST190G on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Fairway:   :mizuno-small:  ST190TS 15° on Fujikura ATMOS Black

Hybrids     :mizuno-small:  CLK 22 & 25 (set to 20° & 23°) on Fujikura SPEEDER

Irons:     :mizuno-small:  MP5 5-P on True Temper Dynamic Gold

Wedges: :mizuno-small: MP-T5 52*, 56* & 60* on True Temper Dynamic Gold Wedge

Putter:    :cameron-small: 2018 Select Newport 2

Balls:      :titelist-small: Pro V1X

Shoes:     :footjoy-small:

Range Finder: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stumbled across this article when poking around reading on the subject a little --> http://personalexcellence.co/blog/10000-hours-to-develop-talent/

 

All of the following quotes have come from Mr. Nicklaus, I wounder if we could draw the conclusion where he thought "talent" or "potential" made him successful?

 

"Confidence is the most important single factor in this game, and no matter how great your natural talent, there is only one way to obtain and sustain it: work."

 

"He had a lot of talent, but didn't have much dedication, wasn't organized, didn't know how to learn, didn't know how to comprehend what he was doing, didn't try to learn how to get better."

 

"I'm a firm believer that in the theory that people only do their best at things they truly enjoy. It is difficult to excel at something you don't enjoy."

 

"My ability to concentrate and work toward that goal has been my greatest asset."

 

"Resolve never to quit, never to give up, no matter what the situation."

 

"Sometimes the biggest problem is in your head. You've got to believe you can play a shot instead of wondering where your next bad shot is coming from."

 

"Success depends almost entirely on how effectively you learn to manage the game's two ultimate adversaries: the course and yourself."


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy to say all of those thing if you have Jack Nicklaus' talent.

 

I think it's preposterous to write a book that says anyone could do any activity 10,000 hours(or whatever the number is) and be great at it. There is a top end for every one in every endeavor.

 

Since RR brought up music I'll play for 2,000 - I was a music major in college - In fact I was an all state trumpet player for three year's in High School. I'm pretty good, fully capable of making a living teaching music and playing in regional type of musical groups on the side. My dream and my goal however was to play trumpet in a major symphony orchestra. (Perhaps the Lord will grant me this dream in heaven.) I don't know how many hours I've practiced in my life but I was in the 8 to 10 hour range every day while in college which is well over the requisite 10,000 hours. At the same time there was a young man (not so young now) named Phil Smith a few year's ahead of me at school. He also practiced lots of hours (everyone did.) He's been the principal trumpet player in the New York Philharmonic for 30 years. Why? Because he has more talent and he also worked hard - very hard. I had a good friend in college named Jim Hynes. He's had a great career as a studio musician in NYC - one of the top guys around. Why? Because he has more talent and he worked hard - very hard. But Sreech (Jim) would never be able to play in a major symphony (it takes that much move talent and work to do that.)

 

It takes both - you have to have talent and you have to work very hard to make it to the top of your field - sometimes hard work can over come superior talent - hard work is not overcoming a lack of talent - That's something that people often miss about PED's. (Which I do not condone.) The whole point of PED's isn't to take short cuts - it's to enable the athletes who take them to work harder. Still cheating mind you but just another bit of evidence that it's the combination of talent and hard work not one to the excluscion of the other.

 

Oh and while we're at it not only do you have to work hard but you have to work smart as well.

 

It's a lame excuse to say to someone after they've done their 10,000 hours that they just don't work on the right thing or that they limited themselves in their mind. Really? I think I don't have the proper bone structure to have the embouchure that I need to hit the high notes that I could hit despite multiple attempts at the changes that should have gotten me there.

 

How about just trying a different line of work?


Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Alpha Distanza 40 weak R flex shaft

Tour Exotics EX 10 3 wood

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,58

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy to say all of those thing if you have Jack Nicklaus' talent.

 

I think it's preposterous to write a book that says anyone could do any activity 10,000 hours(or whatever the number is) and be great at it. There is a top end for every one in every endeavor.

 

Since RR brought up music I'll play for 2,000 - I was a music major in college - In fact I was an all state trumpet player for three year's in High School. I'm pretty good, fully capable of making a living teaching music and playing in regional type of musical groups on the side. My dream and my goal however was to play trumpet in a major symphony orchestra. (Perhaps the Lord will grant me this dream in heaven.) I don't know how many hours I've practiced in my life but I was in the 8 to 10 hour range every day while in college which is well over the requisite 10,000 hours. At the same time there was a young man (not so young now) named Phil Smith a few year's ahead of me at school. He also practiced lots of hours (everyone did.) He's been the principal trumpet player in the New York Philharmonic for 30 years. Why? Because he has more talent and he also worked hard - very hard. I had a good friend in college named Jim Hynes. He's had a great career as a studio musician in NYC - one of the top guys around. Why? Because he has more talent and he worked hard - very hard. But Sreech (Jim) would never be able to play in a major symphony (it takes that much move talent and work to do that.)

 

It takes both - you have to have talent and you have to work very hard to make it to the top of your field - sometimes hard work can over come superior talent - hard work is not overcoming a lack of talent - That's something that people often miss about PED's. (Which I do not condone.) The whole point of PED's isn't to take short cuts - it's to enable the athletes who take them to work harder. Still cheating mind you but just another bit of evidence that it's the combination of talent and hard work not one to the excluscion of the other.

 

Oh and while we're at it not only do you have to work hard but you have to work smart as well.

 

It's a lame excuse to say to someone after they've done their 10,000 hours that they just don't work on the right thing or that they limited themselves in their mind. Really? I think I don't have the proper bone structure to have the embouchure that I need to hit the high notes that I could hit despite multiple attempts at the changes that should have gotten me there.

 

How about just trying a different line of work?

 

I pretty much agree with everything Rev said. Otherwise, every player on the PGA tour wouldn't be distinguishable and we'd have no one like Nicklaus or Woods. That said, you can be pretty darn good at anything assuming you work hard and don't have a physical or mental handicap to stop you. My ultimate goal is to reach 0 handicap and I'm sure as hell I can do it. I don't ever expect to play as well as Tiger Woods. In fact, I think it'll take me a lot longer to reach 0 than it would many others because of natural talent.

 

Almost always, people I've seen who believes there's no real ceiling to potential have natural talent and therefore don't understand the frustration those without that built in talent have to go through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, Mr. Nicklaus didn't go out and shot a dang -10 under the first time he played no one does that I know about.

 

He took up the game at 10 and on his first nine holes ever shot 51. I don't see how that is natural born talent. If he was born to play golf and is something special compared to everyone else he would have broken par the first time ever playing.

 

Someone being born with talent is ridicules, talent is developed and that in return turns into potential. You develop all the talent in the world but never live up to your full potential thanks to a lack of work ethic at a given point.


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, Mr. Nicklaus didn't go out and shot a dang -10 under the first time he played no one does that I know about.

 

He took up the game at 10 and on his first nine holes ever shot 51. I don't see how that is natural born talent. If he was born to play golf and is something special compared to everyone else he would have broken par the first time ever playing.

 

Someone being born with talent is ridicules, talent is developed and that in return turns into potential. You develop all the talent in the world but never live up to your full potential thanks to a lack of work ethic at a given point.

 

But where was Nicklaus one or three years after starting to play? I can tell you 12 years after he started he turned pro. There are many very good golfers on these forums that have been playing for a lot longer and aren't anywhere near pro.

 

The other thing to remember is most amateurs don't ever honestly break a 100, so going out the very first time you've played and shoot 51 isn't that terrible, especially for a 10 year old playing in a day where clubs had zero forgiveness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll use myself as a perfect example, I learned to play golf at like 5 or 6 years old. I went and took lessons and I can even recall my very first birdie as a 6 or 7 year old on a par 4 It was a slight down hill dog leg left, I hit a good drive center of the fairway, hit an approach shot to 5 feet and made my putt (pretty good memory right I just replayed the hole in my head lol, it was from the ladies tee but whatever). I stopped playing golf at roughly 8 and started playing ice hockey, it interested me way more then golf did. I played to a AA travel team level, it got way to serious and I started not liking it, so I stopped playing when I was 18.

 

I picked up golf again when I started working at a golf course in college as a greens mower. Worked there 2.5 seasons so 23 to 25, the last season I only worked the spring time as in the summer I was getting a internship in my degree (well was supposed to) ended up just playing a ton of golf that summer. I worked my way down to a 1.1 and a solid 1-3 handicap by time I graduated college. After not playing for a season the summer that I graduated college the first time I played again I played to a 9 handicap. My handicap slowly started climbing with my once a month scores in the high 80s and low 90s. That was frustrating to me, I knew I was better but with a lack of practice on the course i couldn't score well.

 

Now that I have moved and got a new job with a membership at a course where I play 9 holes 3 to 4 times a week and 18 holes 1 or 2 times a week depending, i have seen my handicap dropping again. Short game is coming back but more importantly I have the time to fix issues in my swing. I joined Duke in middle of March started at a 9 handicap from the gold tees, then 9 from the tips. Then the handicap dropped a little down to an 8ish and held there for some time. Now it has dropped like a rock over the last month. Down from an 6.3 the last revision and the next revision is looking like it will be a 4.8... On 4/1/2012 I was a 9.2 on 7/15/2012 it is likely i will be a 4.8... That is a pretty big droop in 106 days, it is not because I am naturally talented at the sport, it is because I work my a$$ off to be a good player. I have people ask me all the time "did you play in high school or college?", my answer is no, I really didn't play on a golf team at all my entire life. I tell them the full story and people always appear shocked. What they don't relieve is that I have put in a ton of hours into my game and honestly I think about my game all the time even not on the course, mentally preparing myself.

 

I have to wounder where I would be now had I stuck to golf instead of playing other sports and had a love for the game as a child that I do now. I have a ton of developed "talent" over the years and see myself as having the "potential" to be a scratch or better player with hard work. Will I make it on tour as a 28 year old that I am now, unlikely. Maybe the goal is more Champions Tour, I have 22 more years to get my game developed for that at least ;)

 

Talent comes down to the proper training, time and effort a love for what you are doing. If you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life. Potential comes down to the amount of developed talent you have and what you do with it.

 

 

It doesn't matter either way if you feel that it is developed or "natural", either way if you have the mind set of "I am not good enough" or "I can not do that", how on earth are you going to succeed at a goal?


KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff

Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")

Srixon Z U45 19.0* @ 39.75" w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 MB 3-P @ 38.75" - 35.25" (0.25" under), 60.5* - 64.0* (0.5* upright), 22* - 48* (1* weak) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 54-12 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin (Blade) 60-10 @ 35.25", 64.00* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400

Lamkin UTX Wrap, Including Grip Core: 1/32 over (top hand), 1/16 over (bottom hand)

Srixon Z-Star

 

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't matter either way if you feel that it is developed or "natural", either way if you have the mind set of "I am not good enough" or "I can not do that", how on earth are you going to succeed at a goal?

 

Let me address this point first because in a way the conversation's diverged into two different points. I agree completely that you cannot have a defeatist attitude, but expectations need to be set at realistic levels or you'll overburden yourself. I'm a carrot on a stick kind of guy. My goal right now is 10 handicap (assuming Golfshot ever updates my handicap or I use a program that actually works). My ultimate goal is 0 and I fully believe if I commit myself enough I can do it.

 

Now onto your other point...

 

I'll use myself as a perfect example, I learned to play golf at like 5 or 6 years old. I went and took lessons and I can even recall my very first birdie as a 6 or 7 year old on a par 4 It was a slight down hill dog leg left, I hit a good drive center of the fairway, hit an approach shot to 5 feet and made my putt (pretty good memory right I just replayed the hole in my head lol, it was from the ladies tee but whatever). I stopped playing golf at roughly 8 and started playing ice hockey, it interested me way more then golf did. I played to a AA travel team level, it got way to serious and I started not liking it, so I stopped playing when I was 18.

 

I picked up golf again when I started working at a golf course in college as a greens mower. Worked there 2.5 seasons so 23 to 25, the last season I only worked the spring time as in the summer I was getting a internship in my degree (well was supposed to) ended up just playing a ton of golf that summer. I worked my way down to a 1.1 and a solid 1-3 handicap by time I graduated college. After not playing for a season the summer that I graduated college the first time I played again I played to a 9 handicap. My handicap slowly started climbing with my once a month scores in the high 80s and low 90s. That was frustrating to me, I knew I was better but with a lack of practice on the course i couldn't score well.

 

Now that I have moved and got a new job with a membership at a course where I play 9 holes 3 to 4 times a week and 18 holes 1 or 2 times a week depending, i have seen my handicap dropping again. Short game is coming back but more importantly I have the time to fix issues in my swing. I joined Duke in middle of March started at a 9 handicap from the gold tees, then 9 from the tips. Then the handicap dropped a little down to an 8ish and held there for some time. Now it has dropped like a rock over the last month. Down from an 6.3 the last revision and the next revision is looking like it will be a 4.8... On 4/1/2012 I was a 9.2 on 7/15/2012 it is likely i will be a 4.8... That is a pretty big droop in 106 days, it is not because I am naturally talented at the sport, it is because I work my a$$ off to be a good player. I have people ask me all the time "did you play in high school or college?", my answer is no, I really didn't play on a golf team at all my entire life. I tell them the full story and people always appear shocked. What they don't relieve is that I have put in a ton of hours into my game and honestly I think about my game all the time even not on the course, mentally preparing myself.

 

I have to wounder where I would be now had I stuck to golf instead of playing other sports and had a love for the game as a child that I do now. I have a ton of developed "talent" over the years and see myself as having the "potential" to be a scratch or better player with hard work. Will I make it on tour as a 28 year old that I am now, unlikely. Maybe the goal is more Champions Tour, I have 22 more years to get my game developed for that at least ;)

 

Talent comes down to the proper training, time and effort a love for what you are doing. If you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life. Potential comes down to the amount of developed talent you have and what you do with it.

 

Good story and probably not unlike many people out there. Myself I played once when I was 15 and started gradually about 3 years ago. I actually played very well that first time out with a birdie and two pars and was terrible for a long time after. I didn't get really serious until mid last year and I still consider myself terrible with scores in the mid 80s - mid 90s. Since I can only play once a week with a range session or two, I know that I simply don't have the reps to get to a 0, but eventually I'll have the free time for that. In the meantime I'm sure I can get to a 10. If I reach that, I'm sure I can get to 5 (and so on)

 

Back on topic though, do you honestly think if you kept playing through high school and college you would be a pro right now? It's possible. Do you think you'd be competing against Tiger head to head every time he's hot? Again, possible. However I'd like to point to countless players on the Hooters tour who have worked their assess off all their lives but simply can't win on the Web.com tour (still sounds weird saying that). Same goes for Web.com players who can't break into the PGA. Same goes for PGA players who can never get a win. Perhaps all these people need better coaches, but more likely they've reached their potential. There's simply too much data out there to confirm this point.

 

Again, I'm not saying 99% of us can't reach a 0 handicap, I'm just saying there is a limit. Football and basketball are easier to see that limit, you have to be a certain size or you simply can't make it with very very few exceptions. With golf and baseball it's all about coordination so it's very hard to tell if you've got it or not.

 

TLDR point: I play for fun and will always push myself to do better, but in no way do I expect to make it to the PGA tour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not out to make anyone mad here I've just lived enough life to know there is such a thing as talent and it becomes obvious very quickly - 51 at Scitio the first nine holes at 10 years old is talent plain and simple.

 

There are precious few people at the top of their profession in art or music or sports who didn't exhibit talent (who weren't better than every one else by a mile) at a very early age. I've certainly had people ask me if I ever thought of being a professiona golfer - the answer is sure and then I woke up - the talent gap between myself and a touring pro is too great - As wd just said it's more apparent in basketball and football because you need that size and speed that aren't there for me - those are a part of talent as well to.

 

None of this diminishes the need for work nor does it diminish whatever word you want to use for mental ability in a given field.

 

Is there really anyone here who thinks that he could have been Tiger Woods if only he had worked harder on his game? I'd say you're suffering from delusions of grandure.

 

Could there have been some golfers in the history of the world with Jack's talent or Tiger's talent who didn't work hard enough to develope it or who lacked their confidence - I'd have to think so but we'll never really know.

 

Read this well, it takes all three of those things talent, hard work, confidence - you aren't making it to the top without all three.

 

To state the obvious I'm sitting next to my daughter who has cerebral palsey - What would 10,000 hours of golf practice get her? Would she become Anneka Sorenstam on the golf course? Would she even be able to swing a club hard enough to make the ball move would be the better question - perhaps. She could try to be a golfer for 100 million hours - guess what - it's not happening - she's limited physically.

 

That's true of lots of people - it's just not as obvious


Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Alpha Distanza 40 weak R flex shaft

Tour Exotics EX 10 3 wood

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,58

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone here disagrees that hard work and proper attitude are required to excel at anything. But at the top of every field, there is something beyond hard work and a good attitude that separates the very best from the rest. Call it talent, might as well.

 

Here's an interesting thought I had. How many very skilled golfers are there that are maybe capable of shooting the scores to be a champion, but simply don't have the mental makeup to do it when it counts? THAT is a truly mental component of the game that I imagine is fairly common. We never hear about these guys because if you can't do it, no one cares.

 

We have a guy kind of like that at our course. He's better than everyone else by a decent margin, regularly carding the best scores of the year on our course. However, he has won no club championships, and no match play titles. For whatever reason, he can't put it together when it matters. So, is that a lack of talent? I don't think so. He can strike the ball better than any of us, he can score better than any of us, but competition gets to him and he can't do it when he really has to. I'm curious what you guys think about that, how does that fit into the talent/hard work discussion?


Ping I20 8.5* - Aldila NV 65g S
Adams XTD Super Hybrid 15* - Stock Fubuki S
Adams DHY 21* - Stock Matrix Ozik White Tie S
Mizuno MP58 4-8 Irons - Fujikura MCI 100 S
SCOR 42,46,50,54,58* - SCOR/KBS Genius S
STX Robert Ingman Envision TR 35", Iomic grip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...