Shaft Frequency vs Flex.

[RoverRick]

As I have stated on other threads, I am headed off to Europe next month and will be travelling back and forth for the next few year. Golf clubs cost about $150 per trip to take on the plane, so since I am sending over a shipping container (several) I am going to ship a set of clubs to have there. I am not interested in buying a complete new set (well, my wife is not currently interested in me buying a complete new set. ) So I am going to have to use my extra clubs I have here.

 

During my travails with the shafts earlier this year, I ended up with a set of KBS Tour S Flex. They are theoretically stiff flex but after talking with KBS here on their official question board, I have identified these as probably in the 5.2 or 5.3 range. Based on the length to the first step.

 

I am considering using these in my "Euro" irons. I have some Hogan heads I am putting on the shafts. I have a set of DG X100's that are just right. I am sort of wanting to use these KBS Shafts, but they are higher launching (which I like) and they are higher spinning (which I do not like). I have 4 - pw and only need 5-PW + they are 2" over length so there is plenty of shaft to cut.

 

If these were Dynamic Golds, I could trim the tip and it would increase the stiffness and reduce the spin. However, KBS and Project X give you some mumbo jumbo that that will increase the frequency but will not increase the stiffness. They act like this is two entirely different things.

 

I personally do not care what you call it, but if I tip trim these will it decrease the spin on the ball. I am planning on calling KBS on Monday to see.

 

I also have the option to sell these to a friend who is replacing all his shafts and stick with the DG X100's. They are currently in his flex range so in this case I get my money back.

 

So should I tip trim these to better fit my needs, or let them go?

[bandwagon]

- when you say 5.2/5.3 range what does that equate to stiffness?

[RoverRick]

According to KBS stiffness does not equal frequency but a standard 5iron is 8 inches to the first step. Mine are 8.5. Reading the trim chart that would be half way between 5.0 and 5.5.

[RookieBlue7]

Did you check the silkscreens on the butt to be certain they match up with the correct iron? With all tapers, you can easily trim 3/8" off of the tip and it'll increase the frequency by half a flex. Then, if you needed additional stiffness, you could then hardstep the shafts. This additionally increases frequency. Tipping should get you to somewhere around 5.6-5.7 (depending on where they started, going off of 5.2 to arrive at that number. Hardstepping should get you to 5.9-6.0(pick up .3 in frequency with a single hardstep). The problem is, if the x100's are a good fit for you, you're still waaaay off as x100's should cycle at 6.8 (that's the frequency for them). The KBS Tour S+ frequency at 6.8, which is the equivalent in X100's frequency wise. KBS tend to play and feel softer than frequency, though. The reason is the 5 grams of lighter weight in the KBS.

 

We're it me, if they're taper tips, and are silkscreened as stiff, I'd send them back to KBS, as those are waaaaaaay off flex wise from stiff. The stiff flex should frequency at 6.0 before doing a thing.

[skihippy]

Did you check the silkscreens on the butt to be certain they match up with the correct iron? With all tapers, you can easily trim 3/8" off of the tip and it'll increase the frequency by half a flex. Then, if you needed additional stiffness, you could then hardstep the shafts. This additionally increases frequency. Tipping should get you to somewhere around 5.6-5.7 (depending on where they started, going off of 5.2 to arrive at that number. Hardstepping should get you to 5.9-6.0(pick up .3 in frequency with a single hardstep). The problem is, if the x100's are a good fit for you, you're still waaaay off as x100's should cycle at 6.8 (that's the frequency for them). The KBS Tour S+ frequency at 6.8, which is the equivalent in X100's frequency wise. KBS tend to play and feel softer than frequency, though. The reason is the 5 grams of lighter weight in the KBS.

 

We're it me, if they're taper tips, and are silkscreened as stiff, I'd send them back to KBS, as those are waaaaaaay off flex wise from stiff. The stiff flex should frequency at 6.0 before doing a thing.

 

I completely agree with rookie blue.. He has stated ecaxtly what I was thinking. I would just try hard stepping them first to see how they feel. Then I would trim them.

[RoverRick]

Did you check the silkscreens on the butt to be certain they match up with the correct iron? With all tapers, you can easily trim 3/8" off of the tip and it'll increase the frequency by half a flex. Then, if you needed additional stiffness, you could then hardstep the shafts. This additionally increases frequency. Tipping should get you to somewhere around 5.6-5.7 (depending on where they started, going off of 5.2 to arrive at that number. Hardstepping should get you to 5.9-6.0(pick up .3 in frequency with a single hardstep). The problem is, if the x100's are a good fit for you, you're still waaaay off as x100's should cycle at 6.8 (that's the frequency for them). The KBS Tour S+ frequency at 6.8, which is the equivalent in X100's frequency wise. KBS tend to play and feel softer than frequency, though. The reason is the 5 grams of lighter weight in the KBS.

 

We're it me, if they're taper tips, and are silkscreened as stiff, I'd send them back to KBS, as those are waaaaaaay off flex wise from stiff. The stiff flex should frequency at 6.0 before doing a thing.

 

I did not and can not actually messure the frequency. What I did was when KBS says that a standard S flex measures 8" to first step, and this one measures 8.625 than these are obviously not cut to the full 6.0. If 3/8 of an inch is a half of flex than these are at least a 5.2 or .3

[RookieBlue7]

That's what I was asking, are they taper tips and do the silkscreens on the butt say S flex? If they're taper tips, they're discreet length shafts and KBS should've cut them to the proper length to play to their S flex designation. If they're parallel tip shafts, that's a different ball game, and you are the one that trims them to flex. If they're taper tip shafts and KBS mistrimmed them, they should make it right, IMO. That's what I was driving at.

[RoverRick]

That's what I was asking, are they taper tips and do the silkscreens on the butt say S flex? If they're taper tips, they're discreet length shafts and KBS should've cut them to the proper length to play to their S flex designation. If they're parallel tip shafts, that's a different ball game, and you are the one that trims them to flex. If they're taper tip shafts and KBS mistrimmed them, they should make it right, IMO. That's what I was driving at.

 

 

Ah so... They are taper tips and I guess I will call KBS tomorrow. However, I did go out and play 9 holes with the 6 iron today, and it was ok. I guess. No wild shots like I had before, so these may be just fine. I am considering putting these in the Mizuno and the C Tapers in the Hogan CFTs. The Hogans have a COG moved back to help get the ball in the air, which is not a problem anyway. That with the KBS Tour is not a great combo. So I am considering a shaft swap on a couple of irons and see how they play. Let me look again.

 

 

 

Shazam! There is writing on them. I looked 4 times, put on my glasses and saw the writing for the first time. { As an aside, I was unhappy that the numbers on the outside crown of my watch had worn off. (Aviator's Chronograph) Put on one of my golf buddies glasses and looked at my watch and the number magically appeared. I had to go buy some evening reading glasses.}

 

And there it is, it says KBS Tour S and I have also identified the problem. They were sold to me as 4-PW 2" over length. In reality they were 3-9 1 1/2" over length. So when I installed them I was actually soft stepping them. That explains why they are so wimpy. Now I am not sure what I will do, but luckily I have weeks to decide.

 

Thanks for your help.

[RookieBlue7]

No problem Rick. I kind of figured something was off when you were saying the 5 iron to first step was measuring waaaaay off.

[RoverRick]

These shafts have turned out to be very interesting. I bought them off of eBay. I was looking for colored ferrules, which this place had a nice variety of them. The store was called Play Blade Golf in Fredricksburg, VA. Normally I would not include the name but decided I would so you can decide if you wish to do business with them.

 

While looking at these ferrules, I noticed they had some shafts advertised as KBS Tour S 4-P 2" over length. I wrote about these in http://forum.mygolfs...-shaft-odyssey/ and was not happy with the performance but as you have read, something was not right.

 

It turns out that these while advertised as a 4-P, they turned out to be 3-9 iron. As a matter of fact, I can look back at the picture that was included and see the sticker and one of them you can read that this was a set 3-P. Somehow the P did not make the shipment and I have 3-9.

 

I contacted the seller and he said that since I had modified them "Once installed by you they cannot be returned as they have been modified past the point of any reuse."

 

I explained that I had not modified them other than removing the old ferrules and glue and stickers from Callaway. I wished I would have kept the stickers on because I all have is the picture. This was all ok up to this point. Things happen. When I responded that I had not modified these to the point that they were no longer a 4-P but were a 3-9 and that the printing on them clearly said that they were 3-9 as well as the fact that they measured to the first step exactly what KBS said they would. His response was

 

Once they've been installed, they're non-returnable. #2, they were advertised as needing the tips to be cleaned of epoxy, so your point of cleaning them up is fairly irrelevant. The listing pictures even show the epoxy and old ferrule artifacts. #3 KBS does not etch their shafts (ala True Temper or Nippon) on the butt end, nor does Callaway label the shafts with a specific identifier. Had you not misrepresented these facts, I might be willing to consider some arrangement, but using the product for some period of time and then concocting product 'facts' that aren't factual did not help your case. They are no longer in the condition they were when shipped, thus they are modified and non-returnable.

 

For some reason this really pissed me off. I initially just assumed that he KBS Tour S shafts were not as stiff as the other brands and was planning on tip trimming them to make them right. However, when it came out that they were wrong, I thought I would contact the seller to see how he would respond. I have had similar experiences buying shafts off the internet, but the other one I caught upon its arrival. This one, I did not take a tapemeasure and see if they were as advertised. I have already given him a great review but that looks like it will soon be changing. I did not know that KBS wrote what iron the parallel tips are for until Rookie pointed it out. It is so faint that I did not see it. Normally there would be tape over it anyway but not in this case.

 

This is not such a huge deal because I have a extra KBS Wedge shaft that I can put on the PW or purchase another, but when someone accuses of concocting facts to support my arguement it is rediculous. Why would I make up something so rediculous? KBS either did or did not etch or silkscreen the information on the shaft.

 

I replied to him with the number written on the shafts and the measurements

and his response was

 

You don't have a case, so cease and desist.

So my reply has not been made yet. It has been three or four hours and I am not to the point where I can frame an intellegent response.

[JMiller]

Well, eBay has a lot of people that miss represent what they are selling in general, the feedback numbers normally come from people that really don't know what they are getting anyways so some not so reputable companies get good reps. This happens to be someone that miss marked the product then refused to admit the mistake and accept responsibility to fix the issue. This has become more common with online golf equipment places, probably why a lot of the local shops stay in business because people are willing to spend more money locally so they can return the product locally.

 

Of course then you get people that don't want to accept it is them that is an issue and not the equipment that they ordered. My friend had a guy buy a set of Miura irons and ordered them exactly the same as the demo he hit a week before, well he started shanking the clubs and tried to blame my friend that they were not what he ordered. My friend protested and told guy it was his swing not the equipment, the customer then demanded that he try the demo he hit the week before, shanked the s*** out of it too. My friend told him why he was shanking and guy still wanted to make up excuses. The guy made a comment that the demo was lighter then the clubs that had been built for him. My friend said he thought the clubs that were built were lighter. This exchange continued until my friend got a scale and swing weight scale out to measure the two clubs gross weight and swing weight. It turned out the gross weight of the set built was slightly lighter and 1/2 swing weight point lighter then the demo. I would say getting it with-in 1/2 swing weight point is well within tolerances when building a set of Miura clubs.

 

I told that story just to prove that people have issues accepting responsibility for having something be incorrect that they sold or paid for, in this case my friend knew he didn't screw up and proved it. Had he screwed up the order he would have fixed it free of charge I know how he is personality wise.

[RookieBlue7]

How long ago was the transaction? Did you pay with PayPal and use a credit card to facilitate that purchase? If so, skip a PayPal dispute altogether. Go straight to a dispute through your credit card. You do that, the credit card bills PayPal and you get your money back immediately. Then PayPal goes after the seller to recover the money from him. That's why mine is directly linked to my debit card instead of a bank account. I can dispute with my card instead of with PayPal and if it's misrepresented I am guaranteed to get my money back.

 

Now, as an aside, is this guy supposedly a KBS authorized retailer? If so, I'd let KBS's legal team know he is misrepresenting their product. KBS does in fact mark their shafts on the butt, every set I've gotten direct from them have been marked. He may think that the shaft blanks are like TT's shafts and a 9 iron and PW shaft are one in the same, they're not. The 9 and PW are different, and as such the set composition you purchased is compromised. Direct him here, or to KBS, or to any club ***** page, there are plenty of people willing to prove to him he is wrong and that he bent you over the table on this deal. You can edit your feedback and I'd report it with eBay as well.

 

As an aside, if you want colored ferrules, shoot me a PM. I have a direct email for someone at Cell Parts and you won't find a higher quality ferrule anywhere.

[RookieBlue7]

I take it this is your auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=370610875463&nma=true&rt=nc&si=6VPTzm%252FBF5smVGKqmTL2Aq6%252BDe8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_500wt_1055

 

And I'm fairly certain they're ordering from Cell Parts and selling the ferrules at a mark-up.

[GolfSpy WD]

How long ago was the transaction? Did you pay with PayPal and use a credit card to facilitate that purchase? If so, skip a PayPal dispute altogether. Go straight to a dispute through your credit card. You do that, the credit card bills PayPal and you get your money back immediately. Then PayPal goes after the seller to recover the money from him. That's why mine is directly linked to my debit card instead of a bank account. I can dispute with my card instead of with PayPal and if it's misrepresented I am guaranteed to get my money back.

 

Now, as an aside, is this guy supposedly a KBS authorized retailer? If so, I'd let KBS's legal team know he is misrepresenting their product. KBS does in fact mark their shafts on the butt, every set I've gotten direct from them have been marked. He may think that the shaft blanks are like TT's shafts and a 9 iron and PW shaft are one in the same, they're not. The 9 and PW are different, and as such the set composition you purchased is compromised. Direct him here, or to KBS, or to any club ***** page, there are plenty of people willing to prove to him he is wrong and that he bent you over the table on this deal. You can edit your feedback and I'd report it with eBay as well.

 

As an aside, if you want colored ferrules, shoot me a PM. I have a direct email for someone at Cell Parts and you won't find a higher quality ferrule anywhere.

 

Not to take this OT, but anytime I've seen taper tip shafts, the 9 and PW are the same shaft. What's the difference?

[RookieBlue7]

Not to take this OT, but anytime I've seen taper tip shafts, the 9 and PW are the same shaft. What's the difference?

 

Not sure, been a while since I've had any Tours so I can't check the measurement to the last step on both. I do know I had to order a 9 iron and a wedge shaft and when I asked I was told they were different.

[RoverRick]

I take it this is your auction: http://www.ebay.com/...c#ht_500wt_1055

 

And I'm fairly certain they're ordering from Cell Parts and selling the ferrules at a mark-up.

 

 

I had no idea that you could pull this transaction up still. If you do you can look at the picture with the tips of the shafts and zoom in on the third shaft from the top, it says, IR RH RAZR X MUSCLE 3-P STF ??? KB TOUR . I do not know what the three missing letters are but it could be FEM. So clearly these came out of a 3-P set. Unfortunately, I did butt trim the ends 1" when I got them so I did in fact alter the product. However, I did not know this was an issue until I went and swung them.

 

Should I continue to dispute this? Or just move on with my life?

 

I would have been ok with moving on until he sent the email about me "concocting facts". First off by definition you can not concoct a fact. Now I do not know how much of this is being in the right and how much is temper.

[RookieBlue7]

I had no idea that you could pull this transaction up still. If you do you can look at the picture with the tips of the shafts and zoom in on the third shaft from the top, it says, IR RH RAZR X MUSCLE 3-P STF ??? KB TOUR . I do not know what the three missing letters are but it could be FEM. So clearly these came out of a 3-P set. Unfortunately, I did butt trim the ends 1" when I got them so I did in fact alter the product. However, I did not know this was an issue until I went and swung them.

 

Should I continue to dispute this? Or just move on with my life?

 

I would have been ok with moving on until he sent the email about me "concocting facts". First off by definition you can not concoct a fact. Now I do not know how much of this is being in the right and how much is temper.

 

Me, personally, I don't know what I'd do at this point. The shafts are still usable in a 3-9 configuration, which is what he sold you. They have been altered from what he sold you, but the fact is, you didn't receive what he claimed they were but didn't know until after the fact, as you had blind faith in the auction and the fact he has goood feedback and a lot of transactions. That said, eBay/paypal will side with him, as you have cut them. Going with a CC dispute would get your money back and then he'd have to deal with paypal/ebay. He can't leave you negative feedback at this point, it's impossible to do as a seller, only as a buyer. If nothing else, I'd edit my feedback to reflect the misinformation in his listing to let other potential buyers know. He doesn't know what he's talking about saying KBS doesn't mark their shafts. At this point, you have to decide whether you want to file with your cc company and get your money back or not, as eBay/paypal isn't going to side with you. I'd at the worst try a compromise and ask him to refund you the amount of a new wedge shaft. Let him know that you'll be filing a dispute with your credit card if he's not willing to do this. That way both parties are happy. You did pay $100+ for a set of pulls that are unusable for you at this point, IMO.

[BK in TEXAS]

I dunno....the seller sounds like an ignorant a-hole, but you did cut the shafts. Tough call.

 

It might be easiest at this point to just re-list the shafts and sell them.

[JMiller]

I could be way off on this assumption but I know that KBS sells a "wedge" shaft version they don't give the specs on it for the C-Taper or Tour on their web site, I would have to assume that the raw length of the shaft is 37.00". They have the set listed on the KBS website as the 9i and PW being the same length at 37.50". I do recall before they had the C-Taper "wedge" available for sale my builder tipped my PW shaft 1/4" to make it play a bit stiffer in the heavier head then the 9 iron so it wouldn't be basically soft stepping the shaft.

 

What is interesting about KBS is that they have taper tips from 41.5" down to 37.50" where TT DG line up is 41.0" down to 37.00" for their shafts. I could see a mistake being made where someone based it on uncut length not looking at the slick screen compared to TT DG line of being 2 thru 8 iron type lengths. RB7 is correct that there is a difference between the PW in a set and the "wedge" shaft that they sell in the same line but KBS doesn't really give a lot of information as to what that might be, if it is still a 37.50 " shaft I would have to say the tip design is different then the set shaft at the same length.