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I'd love to have a couple of quotes here but it would get too long -

 

To BK I'd like to note that I wrote I've never thrown THAT club - not never thrown a club. The best thing that ever happened to me was the rising price of golf equipment - once woods (metal) got to be $75 I stopped throwing them because I couldn't afford it. I suppose some maturing and the realization that I was about to go to seminary had something to do with it as well.

 

Loved your story - I once flipped a putter at my bag after a 3 jack, it bounced off the bag down a hill into a place marked, "Caution, quick sand." Didn't bother to try and get it.

 

JP I've burst so many bubbles and not on dogleg holes. It happens when you set the GPS to measure your drive which is past or very close to the other players drive and call out - ah a nice one 245 - suddenly their 280 is actually somewhere between 235 and 250 - the real distance they hit the ball.

 

I do agree that most people do not do it intentionally - Here's three ways that people very commonly over estimate the distance they hit the ball.

 

1. The dogleg as described earlier

 

2. Going by the card - the tee is up or the card has over estimated the distance of the hole so that the course can advertise a certain yardage and the unsuspecting golfer thinks he's hit it 20 yards longer than he has.

 

3. Assumption - I hit driver it must have gone 260.

 

Intentional or not it's not so much the driver that hurts but rather the overestimation of iron distance and or approach shot expectation level that get lots of golfers into trouble - Here's how -

 

Joe 16 handicapper thinks he hits his 3 wood 240 - he really hits it 210 - he also expects to hit the green from 240 when there is little chance he could hit it with a driver tee'd up - still he hits 3 wood expecting to get home - there's water short right (where he'll probably end up) but he never considers that he will hit it there.

 

The next thing you know - he's dropping and he can't understand why. Less extreme with irons but leads to lots of balls in the front trap rather than on the green when an 8 iron is hit from 150 rather than the 6 or 7 that should be.

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I played in the Beer Can Open (weekly Wednesday night scramble). I was the short knocker on my team, but I was the designated putter. The three guys on my team bombed the ball, seriously bombed the ball. However, they all apparently swing every club as hard as they can and take the high number for their average. All three of these guys almost always scramble when they play, I rarely scramble because it screws with my normal game plan. But once every week or so it is fun.

 

On one par 5 that I occasionally reach the 200 marker but am usually 220-230 out and usually lay up to 85-100 yards, 485 uphill. Since I was the shortest, but straightest hitter in the group, we decided that I would always hit first and play my regular shot so at worst we are in the fairway. I would put one in play and they could swing away. So on this hole I was in the fairway 220 out and one of the guys hits it to 155 but in the rough. Well, 155 from the rough is better than 220 so I hit. Because it was up hill and out of the rough I decided to hit a six iron. I did not think I could stop it near the hole but we would have a putt. I hit the green and rolled way past the hole, 30 feet. Meanwhile, they are all engaged in the discussion of a 9 iron or hard wedge. None of them came within 40 yards of the green.

 

It was like that the entire 9 holes, except that occasionally one of them would hit the club the distance they thought they could, and one time one of the guys actually hit it the direction and the distance he wanted. But they drove the heck out of the ball, and we only hit full irons when we used my ball because they all went OB, which happened twice.

 

However, we did shoot 9 under, and was in three way tie, tied the first playoff hole and lost the next when one guy chipped in.

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This is one for another thread but I often wonder about it in scrambles - most of us, in fact very, very few of us hit part shots as well as full shots - I think that there are lots of times in scrambles when we'd be better off playing full shots into the green.

 

The best scramble team I've ever played on had no one who could hit it more than 250. We played together twice won both times - 15 under and 13 under, a 15, a 10, a 9 and myself - we just meshed and the 9 was the biggest sandbagger (he was a 9 who could take a 4 almost any day of the week.)

 

Of course I love playing with my son who hits it 320 - it's really nice to have that opportunity to reach about any green, from anywhere, anytime - but the kid can't play worth a lick - doesn't matter - it's fun to watch him hit a driver or anything for that matter - much more like the stuff you see in Vegas at the long driving contest than at a tour event -

 

In Wisconsin he would always hit it over 350, always.

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Mine is also bent to 51 Rookie - don't know if that's come from year's of throwing it or if I went to the club repair guy. ;)

 

Just kidding of course - I don't think I've ever thrown that club - that's probably why it's remained in the bag so long. :)

 

The original Eye 2 Pitching Wedge was 51.5* so I never felt the need to bend it. My original Eye 2 SW is 57.5*. I maintain much the same performance on my newer sets by carrying a 52* and a 58* as my wedge set. I tried dealing with a 56* but my tempo got too quick for my short game and I found the 58* more comfortable. I adjust to the other clubs.

 

 

Shambles

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Mine was 50 - I bought those irons the second year of production - I'd have to go to the Ping website to see what the spec was that year - but regardless at that time quality control wasn't what it is today so it was not uncommon to see some variation plus lets face it - those clubs are nearly 30 years old - it's not surprising that some of their lofts might have changed a bit over the years.

 

I had it bent to 51 from 49.5 at the start of last season so that my regular swing would go 100 - I like to have a club that's stock distance is 100 another that's 150 and another that's 200 - don't know why I just do - seems it makes it easier for me to plan things out.

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Mine was 50 - I bought those irons the second year of production - I'd have to go to the Ping website to see what the spec was that year - but regardless at that time quality control wasn't what it is today so it was not uncommon to see some variation plus lets face it - those clubs are nearly 30 years old - it's not surprising that some of their lofts might have changed a bit over the years.

 

I had it bent to 51 from 49.5 at the start of last season so that my regular swing would go 100 - I like to have a club that's stock distance is 100 another that's 150 and another that's 200 - don't know why I just do - seems it makes it easier for me to plan things out.

 

 

I must admit that I bent mine from black to blue. I had shaky ideas back then and not a lot of reliable information available in the days before internet. There was also the excitement of discovering someone with a bending machine. :lol: Something could have happened in the course of that learning.

 

 

Shambles

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Since the conversation has come around to wedges I will continue it. Four several years I used the Pelz 4 wedge and clock system. I have spent the last 9 months getting rid of my early release and have made major strides, however this has killed my pitching game. Irons and chipping, putting, driving are all so much better but the 70 yards to 20 yard range pitches has really gone down. I have avoided them and that helps but you can not avoid it all the time.

 

My problem is that the 1/2, 3/4, full gap wedge shot that used to go 60, 85, and 95 yards now 75, 100, and 120. The thing is I am making center face pure contact. So bottom line my pitching has sucked.

 

The past couple of weeks I have tried a new approach to piching. I now use the 56 sand wedge for all shots inside 100 yards, unless I have no green to work with

and I will use the 64. I am planning to get a Mizuno MP T11 or maybe the Callaway Copper wedge but right now I have been using a Ben Hogan forged 56/12. It is amazing how close you can get with just one club and varying the swing. I have been a Vokey fan for years but honestly, they do not feel as good as the Hogan forged.

 

I have taken one of the wedges out of the bag, the 60 but I rarely even use the 64. I have not missed it at all. I am also considering getting a 58 and using it for everything. I could then add another longer club but who knows. I do not hit fairway metals well, and always figured more wedges were better. Maybe I will carry two putters.:P That way I can throw one in the lake.

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Mine was 50 - I bought those irons the second year of production - I'd have to go to the Ping website to see what the spec was that year - but regardless at that time quality control wasn't what it is today so it was not uncommon to see some variation plus lets face it - those clubs are nearly 30 years old - it's not surprising that some of their lofts might have changed a bit over the years.

 

I had it bent to 51 from 49.5 at the start of last season so that my regular swing would go 100 - I like to have a club that's stock distance is 100 another that's 150 and another that's 200 - don't know why I just do - seems it makes it easier for me to plan things out.

 

 

When I got mine, it was at 48.25 degrees. I had it bent to 51 (well, I say bent, it was hammered into place). I've checked it 4 times and it's still at 51.

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When I got mine, it was at 48.25 degrees. I had it bent to 51 (well, I say bent, it was hammered into place). I've checked it 4 times and it's still at 51.

 

This is all surprising news to me. I was aware that Ping made an assortment of lofts for their sand wedge, and different grinds, but was not aware that the pitching wedge also came with an assortment of lofts.

 

 

Shambles

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I just went to the Ping website and the official loft of the Eye 2 W was 50.7. However tolerances were all over the place when these clubs were produced - it was not at all uncommon for them to vary by a degree either way or to be mismarked - could be that Rookie's W was really supposed to be a 9.

 

Ping has the specs for all the clubs that it has ever produced on its website if anyone is interested. Check out the loft and shaft length distance between clubs made in the 80's and today.

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Ping has the specs for all the clubs that it has ever produced on its website if anyone is interested. Check out the loft and shaft length distance between clubs made in the 80's and today.

Where did you find that, I can't find it anywhere, I'm obviously just overlooking it. I had a set of Ping Zings that I used to KILL; they were almost two clubs longer and more accurate than any set of irons that I've had since then. I've been wanting to see what the specs were on those.

 

 

Nevermind, I just found the 'Classic Irons' tab. Thanks for the heads up.

 

Interesting; the lofts are the same except for the long irons, they are 1* stronger than my current set.

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After swing chance last week, new distances with stock mizuno mx25 en vokeys with kbs stiff:

 

Driver: not in the bag anymore, too unreliable

3Wood: not in the bag anymore, too unreliable

2h 17°: 219

3i: 197

4i: 186

5i: 175

6i: 164

7i: 153

8i: 142

9i: 131

PW: 120

52°: 98

58°: 76

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Good point James - of course most of us live at points inbetween.

 

We have mentioned and I think finally convinced people that besides sea level playing where it is extremely humid and wet makes a difference - For example lots of times people come to Florida in the Spring and the ball goes about the same distance as where they live - it won't fly quite as far but they rarely know how far they can carry it anyway - since it's dry and the ground is hard they get the same relative distance and then they wonder why Floridians say, "The ball doesn't go anywhere here." Well if the ball isn't carrying as far because it's sea level and it's not rolling out at all because it's wet due to all the rain in the summer months it can be very sobering.

 

In the end I think many of the distances you see here are more of a product of the normal testing that suggests that people believe that they hit the ball farther than they do. Of course now we'll see the request number of not I posts and who knows there are always some people who hit the ball a long way - based on what I've seen about 1 in 100 players hit the ball 280 with the driver - could be that all of those 1's are the 1's stating that in a thread like this.

 

I'd love to hear from James as to how far he believes the average player hits his driver and carries his 6 iron. Also I'd like to know how that compares to what they think. That way people can pick on him rather than me. Even the guy that I played with yesterday who was legitimately hitting it 285 thought he was hitting it over 300 - we didn't measure a single one of his drives at 300 although to be fair we didn't measure everyone of them - just the longest ones. We kept silent about what his distance actually was because he was a good guy and we didn't want to piss him off for no reason - he was very long just not as long as he thought he was.

 

So any comments James?

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I have thought about starting a thread on just this but not only will the altitude greatly effect the distance, so does temperature, humidity, spin, elevation changes, and of course wind. For example, a drive that goes 250 yards at 70 degrees, will travel only 244 at 40* and 262 at 95*. So for every 10 degrees below 70 the ball travels about 2 yards less but it gains about 4 for every 10 degrees about 70.

 

One of the interesting things to me was the fact that the ball actually travels farther in humid air than dry air. I always thought the opposite because typically the ground is wet and it loses a considerable amount of roll, but the wet air is heavier and thus supports the ball better so the ball will fly farther, but of course roll less.

 

And wind is like temperature in that a 20 mph tail wind will only increase the distance by 20 yards, 230 yard drive, but a 20 mph head wind will decrease the drive by 26 yards.

 

For every yard of elevation change you can add or subtract roughly a yard. Once again, uphill 20 yards decreases flight by 21 yards and 20 yards down hill adds 16 yards.

 

So now I am at 900 feet elevation, so all i need is a 100 degree day, 20 mph wind, 20 yards downhill, and a little humidity and I really can drive the ball 300 yards.:D

 

I actually have not even come close to this in the last week and a half or more.

 

Edit: Just went to dinner with a friend and his car said we were at 700 feet vs. 900 feet. Seems that I even overestimated that.

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All good points although there is a point of dimishing returns in terms of temperature and humidity and like lower temperatures it drops in a hurry.

 

Once the temperature gets above 95 you start to loose distance. Likewise once the dew point gets into the 60's you start to loose distance - extremes in any direction adversly affect distance. You also loose more distance into the wind than you gain with the wind - that's why you'll find that if you have a two club wind in your face it's only actually a one club wind when you are with it.

 

Ideal conditions for distance would be a fast and firm course at 5,000 feet with 90 degree temperatures and 50 percent humidity -

 

I'm guessing none of us get that -

 

Ultimately we get what we get and unless we are living in Colorado or some other mountainous spot our distance differences are about a half a club in carry - roll out depends upon weather conditions or type of soil that we play on.

 

I'm way more interested in James' take on whether or not his students over estimate how far they hit the ball and for that matter whether or not they actually even know how far they carry it.

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Has anybody mentioned elevation in this thread yet? I've found that my irons carry about 10-15 yards less at sea level than they do at 3,000 feet above!

 

What happens when you live in a city below the sea ? Manila is below sea level and so are many of our more aged courses. :lol:

 

 

Shambles

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I just went to the Ping website and the official loft of the Eye 2 W was 50.7. However tolerances were all over the place when these clubs were produced - it was not at all uncommon for them to vary by a degree either way or to be mismarked - could be that Rookie's W was really supposed to be a 9.

 

Ping has the specs for all the clubs that it has ever produced on its website if anyone is interested. Check out the loft and shaft length distance between clubs made in the 80's and today.

 

You've made me feel an old fool. Way back when we adjusted the lie of my clubs we also added a bit of loft to the SW and the W to get a bit closer to the old lofts. The Ping was made with less loft than the old clubs and the short game suffered a bit. I had forgotten about that because it was an impulse decision.

 

 

Shambles

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You aren't an old fool Shambles - either that or we are all there with you.

 

I'm going with you aren't an old fool. :)

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What happens when you live in a city below the sea ? Manila is below sea level and so are many of our more aged courses. :lol:

 

 

Shambles

 

Play the whole course as a water hazard?:rolleyes:

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