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Play the whole course as a water hazard?:rolleyes:

 

 

Better yet play the whole course as casual water!!!!!

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Better yet play the whole course as casual water!!!!!

 

You can look it up. Manila is, literally, below sea level. :lol:

 

 

Shambles

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Has anybody mentioned elevation in this thread yet? I've found that my irons carry about 10-15 yards less at sea level than they do at 3,000 feet above!

 

I know the elevation at work is 715 above sea level. It's relatively close to that at the course (I'd say within a 15 feet either way). I verify the distances I posted with a Trackman but didn't set it up so don't know if it's at sea level or our elevation. I just write the averages down and the rest of the numbers.

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This is all surprising news to me. I was aware that Ping made an assortment of lofts for their sand wedge, and different grinds, but was not aware that the pitching wedge also came with an assortment of lofts.

 

 

Shambles

I've seen W, W2, S, S2, LW from them in their sets.

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I'm at 2 yards above sea level so don't tend to worry about elevation in my distance calculations, except when setting the Track Man up.

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Heres mine, Im not really a long ball hitter. I tend to rely on my putting and iron play to score well.

Driver (10.5*): 240 yards

Hybrid (18*): 200 yards

4-iron: 170 yards

5-iron: 160 yards

6-iron: 150 yards

7-iron: 140 yards

8-iron: 130 yards

9-iron: 120 yards

PW (47*): 110 yards

GW (50*): 100 yards

SW (54*): 80 yards

LW (58*): 60

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Those distances are almost exactly the same as mine GG. There are plenty of LPGA players who shoot in the 60's with those distances.

 

I played in a foursome last week in a tournament where all the guys in my group had single digit handicaps - I was shorter than one, the same as another and longer than the 4th one - that's very normal for me in a tournament setting - I'm usually average/short side average in the tournaments I play in when matched against opponents with similar handicaps to mine.

 

So I'm guessing that when it comes to amateurs handicap and average driving distance have very little to do with each other.

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Those distances are almost exactly the same as mine GG. There are plenty of LPGA players who shoot in the 60's with those distances.

 

I played in a foursome last week in a tournament where all the guys in my group had single digit handicaps - I was shorter than one, the same as another and longer than the 4th one - that's very normal for me in a tournament setting - I'm usually average/short side average in the tournaments I play in when matched against opponents with similar handicaps to mine.

 

So I'm guessing that when it comes to amateurs handicap and average driving distance have very little to do with each other.

 

Well that and the other side. The lower handicaps tend to be working control over distance. 240 middle of the fairway versus 300 in the deep rough....

 

One will score better than the other

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So I'm guessing that when it comes to amateurs handicap and average driving distance have very little to do with each other.

Never a truer statement. I can go hit driver 280 all over the place and shoot 80 or I can hit my 3I 220 into the fairway all day and shoot 70. I tested that theory yesterday; only hit driver on a wide open 550yd par 5 on the front and I shot even, put the driver in play on the back and shot +4. I birdied a 520yd par 5 by going 3I/3I/SW. Now with that being said, I didn't get in any trouble with the driver, just wasn't hitting from the fairway, which cut down on my accuracy. It has nothing to do with distance at all, it's all about getting the ball in the hole.

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I reshafted my driver Saturday night and have played only 36 holes with it. I am hitting it long and straight. There are three holes that I never hit a driver on because they are forced carries of between 250 and 275 yards. And you are still not on the green. Last night I played 9 holes with my neighbor and I told him I was playing two balls off those holes. One with driver and one regular shot.

 

I cleared all the obstacles with my driver and ended up in the fairway on all three of these holes. The first hole I was 10 feet from the green and chipped up for a birdie. But I also hit a 4 iron to the center of the fairway, and had a 104 yard wedge shot that I put to 3 feet and made the birdie.

 

Two holes later, I cleared the lake with my driver leaving me 60 yards out. I also hit a 5 iron to the center of the fairway and had a 135 yard shot. I hit both second shots to within 15 feet of the hole. Made neither putt but that is a different story.

 

On the eigth hole I had a creek I had to fly. I laid up with a 4 iron to 105 out just short of the creek. And I flew the creek leaving me 65 yards to the flag. My 105 yard shot stopped 5 feet from the flag, my 65 yard shot had so much spin that it actually backed up about 20 feet. I did not make either putt because of putter I had with me. I did not make many putts.

 

Moral of the story is, in all three cases, I was driving the ball far enough and well enough that I took all the trouble out of play. However, I hit them perfectly. It was a Monday evening with no money on the line, we were playing more than one ball and not keeping score. No pressure. But I flew over trees and water and hazards and one little error and I was looking at par being a great score. I still had to take one more shot to get it on the green. On the layup shots, I hit 4 and 5 irons with nice easy swings that did not travel far enough to get in the hazards, and still had 100 to 140 yards. I work hard on my iron shots and feel like I can hit a 6,7,8,9 iron and pw, and gw close enough to the hole to have a putt at birdie. I also work hard on my putting.

 

I found no advantage to driving over those hazards.

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RP read right between the lines of my comments. There was a blog on the front page here about a month and a half ago based on a test done by my GolfSpy about people over estimating their distances. Every test I've ever seen has revealed that people over estimate how far they hit the ball by 40 yards with the driver. They also over estimate how far they hit longer clubs like the 5 iron by 20 yards or so - that's worse than the driver because most of the time it doesn't really matter if you think you've hit your driver 270 or 230 - but under estimate a 5 iron by 20 and you're in the drink or the trap or something else that's not so hot.

 

The point I was making is that I play in tournaments with lower handicap golfers. When I'm in a foursome I'm short average - generally there's one guy noticably longer than me, another a bit longer and another shorter. I'm not far from the average for a guy with a 2 handicap and yet you get into a thread like this one and nearly everyone says he hits the ball farther than I do.

 

I don't think it's because I'm more consistent - it's because I'm more realistic about how far I hit the ball. I dont' count that one that I hit 289 last spring on a dry windy day as my average drive because I hit several in the 230 range today - and still shot 69. I did because when I had 170 on a 400 yard hole I hit 5 hybrid instead of the 7 iron someone might be tempted to hit because he thinks he hits his 5 190 - the average 5 iron on the PGA tour goes 185 for crying out loud -

 

Now that I'm thinking of it one of our MyGolfSpy guys commented on how all of their tests show that their testers are just as accurate with their middle irons as with their short irons. I'd love to hear more about that or see some data. Should I open a new thread?

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Every test I've ever seen has revealed that people over estimate how far they hit the ball by 40 yards with the driver. They also over estimate how far they hit longer clubs like the 5 iron by 20 yards or so -

Exactly. I hit the ball much farther before I bought my GPS ;)

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Has anyone actually seen an explainable decrease in distance between indoor simulators and outdoor testing?

 

I feel that I have experienced this and continue to experience this fact, but given I have never in my life been on a LM outdoors for testing to compare against testing indoors I can't say 100% that I am telling the truth here.

 

Outdoor Testing

~ I always have golf shoes with spikes on

~ I have a wide open area that doesn't feel small

~ I can adjust and control the tee height that I need to make solid contact that day.

~ I tend to be able to visualize a shot before hitting it easier

 

Indoor Testing

~ 99.9% of the time I have dress shoes on or sneakers not designed for golf

~ I sometimes feel very crammed into a small space like I am going to hit a wall or ceiling with the driver and my swing.

~ I really can't aim and visualize that shot as easily indoors on a simulator

~ I really can't control the tee height of hte rubber tee, sometimes this costs me some smash an potential distance.

~ A lot of simulators (besides the radar ones that sit behind you) will start the ball straight then curve the ball based on spin.

--> This happens a lot, it won't pick up that it went +1.3* right of center then had -111 side spin for a perfect baby draw. (I made the numbers up as an example)

 

 

More so I was sort of stumped by the Foresight CG2 the last time I was on it, I was getting an average of 110 SS / 162 BS give or take with about 12.5* launch angle and 2300 RPM spin... Using this tool http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html those numbers would be a 272yard carry. The Foresight CG2 was reading a 285 carry roughly, I made sure the wind was set to 0 and there was nothing weird set on their to boost distance so I have no idea on that one. Normally you have to have a 167 to 170 ball speed to get a 285 to 290 carry out of the 12.5* launch angle with 2300 RPM in spin.

 

I know as long as I don't duck hook one my minimal carry is about 275, I know when I smash one the carry should be about 288 to 290. I probably average about a 285 carry which would be about a 167 or 168 ball speed. At a 167 ball speed ~ Low 112.837 SS, High 115.172. At a 168 Ball Speed ~ Low 113.51 SS, High ~ 115.862... Just from experience and hitting on the course I know what My distance should be, I know what the swing speed and ball speed should be roughly to get that distance.

 

I really don't know that I trust LM indoors as a good way to measure on the course distance or fitting so the speak for my personal swing. But like others have said it is not like I am grossly over estimating the distance by 40 or more yards with a driver. If anything I am within 10 yards, sometimes maybe on really terrible hits 20 yards short.

 

 

EDIT: This happened to be my 1000th post :)

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But like others have said it is not like I am grossly over estimating the distance by 40 or more yards with a driver. If anything I am within 10 yards, sometimes maybe on really terrible hits 20 yards short.

While I agree that most people overestimate distance, I get pretty annoyed with the "nobody thats not a pro can hit it 280" attitude. I'm with JM here, I may overestimate my AVERAGE by 10yds, but for every mishit that only goes 255-260, I hit one 290-300, so I don't think that saying I average 280 is really an overestimate. Again, this is under normal conditions, all bets are off for windy and/or wet days.

 

As far as the overestimation goes, I have guys that I play with that tell people I hit it 320 on the average, simply because I'm so far past them and they are in denial of how short they actually hit it. My dad tells people I hit it 350 off the tee, because he is convinced that he hits his driver 220, instead of the 175 that he's actually hitting it.

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1st, Congrats on #1000.....2ndly(?), yea the only time I went in a LM I experienced this....I played in the morning and had two drives measured, one of 253yds and the other was 278yds(a long drive hole, 294yds won)....I hit 3 balls in the LM, and they were 255, 264 & 252.....I played again that evening in a swat and had 3 measured at 264, 273 & 277 yds, all fairway shots...

 

The thing is, my 2nd & 3rd balls on the LM "felt" as though I crushed them...After my third ball I said "that's crushed" & when he said 252yds with a 109mph SS and a 1.47 SF, I was ready to crush the monitor...

 

I think that the machine was screwed up..He said not...But I saw those last #s with my own eyes & it just didn't feel like a 250yd hit...On a course, I can pretty accurately(IMHO very accurately) call my distance w/in 5-10yds & that "felt" like a 280+ drive....

 

However, I believe that I was "tighter" on the LM...I was thing "distance, distance, distance"....On the course I never think distance, I just picture the spot where I want it to land...That's damn near impossible for me when I'm starin at a net in front of a wall...lol....

 

So yea, even though no one asked, I think LMs suck!......

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever.......

 

Well just doing a little math on that 109 @ a 1.47 smash = 160.33 ball speed, I happen to have some numbers close in the Black Ops and RT reviews that I wrote, so you are in luck that you can compare my numbers to your own. In this case, I just feel that normally I'm about 2mph better and a bit more ball speed (3 to 5mph) outdoors and when I can control a tee height then I am inside...

 

It could have been accurate IF you had too much spin on the ball...

 

Using Flightscope Trajectory Optimizer you can sort of figure out what spin you need to optimize your carry distance.

 

Launch Speed: 160.33 mph

Launch Angle: 13.0 deg

Spin Axis: 0 deg

Spin: 3800

Carry = 259 yards

 

Launch Speed: 160.33 mph

Launch Angle: 13.0 deg

Spin Axis: 0 deg

Spin: 2800

Carry = 271 yards

 

Just reducing that spin rate by 1000 from 3800 to 2800 increased carry by 12 yards. If you manage to increase the launch angle by a little from 13 to 15* and keep 2800 RPM of spin it gets you another 3 yards

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I was incorrect on my SF on that 3rd ball...I keep notes, stats & basically anything that I might refer back back to in the future...My teacher started me doing that 30+ years ago...

 

Anyway, my SF was 1.46...I dont know what, if any difference that would make...However, as I said, that ball felt "nutted"....I don't recall the spin, not did I Nitr them, however I'm normally not a high spinner, and definitely not at that level, but he'll, I don't know so if it says I was, & it's accurate, then I guess that I was at that level....

 

I think to that along with mentally focusing on distance, I was tighter that when I stand on a tee box..But I still have my doubts on that LM....

 

Thanx for the explanation.....

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever......

 

I got you, I was just offering that maybe that there is an over spin on the shot. Even a 100 mph ball speed will see distance changes do to different spin rates. As the ball speed increases the more spin needs to decrease to maximize carry but there is a point of negative return at the same launch angle... a lot of males in golf come in at around 150 mph in ball speed on the driver... Let me give three examples, and which is obviously optimal

 

Launch Speed: 150 mph

Launch Angle: 14.0 deg

Spin Axis: 0 deg

Spin: 5000 rpm

Carry = 225 yards

 

Launch Speed: 150 mph

Launch Angle: 14.0 deg

Spin Axis: 0 deg

Spin: 4000 rpm

Carry = 238 yards

 

Launch Speed: 150 mph

Launch Angle: 14.0 deg

Spin Axis: 0 deg

Spin: 3000 rpm

Carry = 249 yards

 

Launch Speed: 150 mph

Launch Angle: 14.0 deg

Spin Axis: 0 deg

Spin: 2000 rpm

Carry = 244 yards

 

Launch Speed: 150 mph

Launch Angle: 14.0 deg

Spin Axis: 0 deg

Spin: 1000 rpm

Carry = 217 yards

 

The optimal range for a 150 mph ball speed at 14* of launch angle is 2425 to 3025 RPM

 

I would have to assume you might get more run so to speak out of the bottom of the spectrum, seems like the ball would check a hair less when hitting...

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I hate to interupt the science lesson with the mundane but I want to be clear that in my opinion the driving over estimation is innocent. Lots of people simply take the yardage on the card subtract the yardage to the hole and assume they've hit it that far. It's rare however that a hole plays at its listed yardage or it's also very possible that the hole was a dogleg and the corner was cut - suddenly that 240 yard drive seems like it was 270.

 

I have people play with me all the time who assume I'm hitting it 250 or 260 when its 230 to 240 - I hit the ball solidly and consistently - its longer than they hit it so they assume I must hit it 260 because they must hit it 250.

 

Finally JBones while there are certainly some amateurs, very few but some, who hit it as far as a touring pro they tend to populate the very top of the amateur pool - guys like your cousin who will play at a DI school - there are other amateurs with the potential to hit it as far as a touring pro - one of my two kids comes to mind - his swing speed gets up north of 120 when he actually hits the ball in the middle of the club face with the proper swing path. Then its a thing of beauty - the ball goes well over 300 yards - but if he were to run around saying he averages 300 yards he'd be grossly over estimating his average distance - figure this average out 320, OB, OB, OB, 190, 340, 220, OB, 310. That would be a typical round with John. There simply aren't a lot of guys out there that aren't playing golf for a living or wanting to play golf for a living that average 280 off the tee. There are plenty of guys out there who hit drives 280 - those are two different things.

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Rev. I totally get that. I could be like most and say that I hit my 3 wood 260-265 off the deck. But in reality I have done this once. Never mind the fact that I was 225 from the green. In reality I hit it 265, 150, 225, 190, 113, 230, 145. By contrast I hit my 2 iron 205, 225, 218, 230, 228, 235. My driver fluxuates between 285 and 260 but when I over swing it drops down significantly. As much as 50 yards shorter depending on the circumstance.

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I hate to interupt the science lesson with the mundane but I want to be clear that in my opinion the driving over estimation is innocent. Lots of people simply take the yardage on the card subtract the yardage to the hole and assume they've hit it that far. It's rare however that a hole plays at its listed yardage or it's also very possible that the hole was a dogleg and the corner was cut - suddenly that 240 yard drive seems like it was 270.

LOL, more of a fitting thing and knowledge on how to optimize your REAL distance with the driver, but yes it was OT...

 

I have to agree with you on this point that cutting the corner of dog-leg holes, playing downhill, playing downwind all increase the "distance" claims. Hitting into the wind or uphill is going to make someone feel like they hit a lot shorter then they do, take tour pros into a 20+ mph wind hitting drivers at 230-250 yards that's a HUGE poke into the wind that stiff.

 

I sort of chuckled one time over hearing a group of amateurs at my home course for a golf camp going on one said to another "Joe was 60 yards off the green on number 2 hit a 350 yard drive it was crazy"... Number 2 at Duke happens to be a 428 yard slight dogleg left downhill hole. Given this guy was with a golf camp at duke I have to assume that he was playing the white tee box which is a 383 yard par 4 instead. Assuming that the person hit a draw to curve perfectly up the center of the fairway around the corner, then at best 60 yards from the green was a 323 yards shot downhill. I would just assume that he carried the ball to land directly on the 2nd drop in the fairway sloping towards the green shooting the ball forward and additional 50 or more yards yards. so we are down to a 270ish carry at best. Given I assume most amateurs don't hit a controlled draw that are in a golf camp, I have to assume it was a cut / slice that went against the grain of the hole. reducing the yardage by 30 yards... I would have to assume the guy only carried the ball about 240 or 250 yards and got silly lucky with a bounce.

 

 

I could be like most and say that I hit my 3 wood 260-265 off the deck.

What are your trying to say about me RR :lol:, joking I know 90% of people don't trust my distance claims on here and if they never play a round of golf with me they never will. Sort of the nature of the beast when posting stuff on golf forums about distance too many people lie or have no clue.

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What are your trying to say about me RR :lol:, joking I know 90% of people don't trust my distance claims on here and if they never play a round of golf with me they never will. Sort of the nature of the beast when posting stuff on golf forums about distance too many people lie or have no clue.

 

Actually, I was thinking about two things. The first is that my 3 wood is so undependable it is pathetic. So much so, that I only use it on one hole and that is a tee shot. My driver is too long, and my 2 iron is just a little short.

 

The second thing is that one of the high cappers that I play with all the time was once behind me. We had both hit poor tee shots and had trees between us and the green. I had a pitching wedge and was going to put it back in the fairway. I was getting in my stance and noticed him behind me. So I appologized and moved my cart and moved. There were some guys still on the green. I asked what he was waiting on and he said he was waiting for the green to clear. I said I was 180 out, and he had to be at least 240. He said, "Yeah, but I hit my 3 wood 250." I thought that if he did than he should hit it instead of his driver. I have paid attention since he said that three or four weeks ago. He has yet to break 200 yards with the three wood off the dirt. But has an uncanny ability to find OB and water with it.

 

I was not thinking about you at all. I know this is heartbreaking to you and maybe you can find some tissue around there to soak up the tears. I do not really care about your distance claims because we know that distance does not matter, except that "Chicks dig the long ball."

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