Is it the head or the shaft....

[BK in TEXAS]

So I bought a set of Nike forged blades last week and have been playing/practicing with the 7,8,9 irons. Here's the thing, I hit them fine, but loft for loft they are a full club shorter than my current Nike VR Full Cavity irons.

 

What I mean is, when I hit the 45Ëš Cavity Iron and the 45Ëš Blade Iron, the blade is always 10-12 yards shorter. Accuracy is the same for both sets.

 

Other than the head, the cavity iron set has a regular flex Dynalite 110 shaft, and the Blades have 5.5 Rifle FCM shafts.

 

My first thought was I'm mis-hitting the blades. But it doesn't feel like it...the strike feels sweet, actually.

 

Anyway...hoping someone has some thoughts.

[RoverRick]

Probably the shaft. If you mis hit that blade there usually is very little doubt about it being a mishit, it will rattle your teeth. When I was exploring shafts and wrote about it in 2012: A Shaft Odyssey. I found that much difference between shafts. This is the reason that we all say get fit because the shaft that works for me may not work for you. Most people would say that the Rifle shaft or PX 5.5 is the better shaft, however this is obviously not the case for you.

 

If you were to hit both on a LM you may find the difference is in the spin numbers, but this does not really matter. For whatever reason, you are getting better results from one over the other. I get 20 yards difference based on the shaft. I played PX shafts for years and was giving up yards all the time. C Tapers and X100s work best for me, however, none of my buddies can hit them for crap.

 

 

I have some CB's and some MB's that I have had on all of these shafts, and other than forgiveness and some slight differences because of a degree or two difference, there is no difference in distance.

[ZenGolfer]

Id say its likely the shafts. 5.5s to me always felt like they were inbetween regular and stiff flex.

A small percentage of it could be the heads though. Blades are a lower-launching head and your loss in distance is likely coming from less carry distance.

[JMiller]

Assuming that you can rule out the heads using impact tape and checking the loft and line of the clubs, then it would be pretty obvious that it is a poor shaft for your swing in the blades.

 

Just to get some terminology clear so that I don't confuse anyone "harsh" / "boardy" to me is the feel in the lag part of the down swing. If it feels like I swing a rope in transition or if it feels like I swing a iron fire poker (2x4 for example). I personal have found Rifle / PX shafts to feel very harsh, the most 2x4 feeling of all the steel shaft I have tried.

 

You have to also recall that the Rifle / PX line are Low-Mid launch low spin shafts for the most part. The TT Dynalite 100 is actually a high launch shaft with a weaker Tip section. It would probably compare closer to a KBS Tour Stiff then a Rifle / PX shaft.

 

In short my guess is that the Rifle is a bad fit for your swing, the lower trajectory and lower spin probably is costing a bit of carry and total distance up to 10-15 yards.

[BK in TEXAS]

OK...cool. It does feel slightly "boardy"......not harsh by any means though. Anyway I don't have any extra Dynalites right now so before I order a set I'm going to try 2X soft-stepping on a couple Rifle shafts and see how it feels. Figure I'll be getting the Dynalites anyway, but it won't cost anything to try.

[BK in TEXAS]

The 2x softstepping seemed to help make them feel a bit less "boardy"....though I honestly can't say if it was simply psychological or actually real. Anyway, it was way to windy to get an accurate gauge of distance....I'll play some more with it tomorrow.

[ZenGolfer]

Just to get some terminology clear so that I don't confuse anyone "harsh" / "boardy" to me is the feel in the lag part of the down swing. If it feels like I swing a rope in transition or if it feels like I swing a iron fire poker (2x4 for example). IO personal have found Rifle / Px shafts to feel very harsh, the most 2x4 feeling of all the steel shaft I have tried.

Id agree with this. Ive owned several sets of irons with Rifle/PX shafts and I always had to swing out of my shoes to feel like I was loading the shaft properly, even with 5.5 flex.

I hit my drives 250 yards and my 7-iron carries 150 yards, so its not like Im a slow-swinger in the first place.

[JMiller]

Id agree with this. Ive owned several sets of irons with Rifle/PX shafts and I always had to swing out of my shoes to feel like I was loading the shaft properly, even with 5.5 flex.

I hit my drives 250 yards and my 7-iron carries 150 yards, so its not like Im a slow-swinger in the first place.

 

 

I am also not exactly a slow swing speed player, I have a 94mph 6iron SS, on a nice smooth 80% swing it's a carry of 195ish. I have tested PX 5.5, PX Flighted 6.0, PX 6.0, PX 6.5... All of them felt pretty harsh in the load for my swing, the change was all in the tip section, the PX 5.5 / PX Flighted 6.0 tended to flip the head from Dynamic Lead / Dynamic Close at impact.

 

I was fit for a PX 6.5 soft stepped one time tested a PX 6.5 straight in, When I was looking for the shafts to change to in my fitting it was about one month before KBS released the C-Tapers, I pre-ordered them trusting my friend / builder / fitter that they would feel just as smooth as the KBS Tour but have a lower trajectory. He was exactly correct.

 

I have fallen in love with the KBS C-Taper XS, it over all feels like a 6.8 or 6.9 FCM which fits me perfectly, the load is very smooth for an X-Stiff steel shaft. If KBS had not come out with the C-Taper I would probably be playing PX 6.5 soft stepped and just dealing with the harsh feel. Lucky I don't have to compromise my feel for the performance I wanted.

 

I know that with a reduction in spin you also have a reduction in workability, you have to have spin to work a ball. I can still hit the shots that I need to, it's just a little harder then if I were playing a TT DG x100 or a Nippon shaft I think.

[Richie3Jack]

My experience is that it can be both, the head and the shaft. But it's more likely the shaft.

 

Cavity backs have a lower CoG and launch the ball higher. You start launching the ball higher, you can very likely increase your distance. I use blades in my 5-PW, but cavity backs in my 3 & 4-iron because I like the CB's to launch the 3 & 4-irons higher so I can parachute the ball into the green from longer distance.

 

What bothers me most about CB's is that I am not nearly as consistent with them when it comes to trajectory and distance control. I can hit some shots exactly like a blade, but then the occasional shot will launch higher and hit 1-2 clubs further out of the blue. And with iron play, distance control is a top priority.

 

Since the shafts are different, there's a decent chance that the tip sections may be a different stiffness. That affects the launch conditions and can cause a major difference in distance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[JMiller]

My experience is that it can be both, the head and the shaft. But it's more likely the shaft.

 

Cavity backs have a lower CoG and launch the ball higher. You start launching the ball higher, you can very likely increase your distance. I use blades in my 5-PW, but cavity backs in my 3 & 4-iron because I like the CB's to launch the 3 & 4-irons higher so I can parachute the ball into the green from longer distance.

 

What bothers me most about CB's is that I am not nearly as consistent with them when it comes to trajectory and distance control. I can hit some shots exactly like a blade, but then the occasional shot will launch higher and hit 1-2 clubs further out of the blue. And with iron play, distance control is a top priority.

 

Since the shafts are different, there's a decent chance that the tip sections may be a different stiffness. That affects the launch conditions and can cause a major difference in distance.

 

Good post R3J, I couldn't agree more about the comparison from blade to CB trajectory and distance control. It sort of boggled my mind a little how 5 shoots on the exact same spot of a CB will result in distances that have a +/- 10 yard spread to my target distance. For Blades I have found it is cut in 1/2 or even less for my swing and target distances personally.

 

Here is an interesting read for the debate of MBs versus CBs --> http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

 

I am not sure if the modern blades really fits this compared to the modern players CBs this was back in the 1990s we are talking about here, I would like to see the research done again with today's equipment.

[Richie3Jack]

I have a few club designers that I have discussed blades versus cavity backs with. A couple of them have been involved in the design process since the 70's. The general consensus between them from the testing they had done while at OEM's was that blades had far better distance dispersion than cavity backs. And that cavity backs were NOT better on mis-hits necessarily. Their studies showed that cavity backs, were much more likely to hit the ball *further* on mis-hits. But, the dispersion with CB's on mis-hits was much worse as well. According to one of the designers, you would see some mis-hits go about the same distance as a well struck ball, then others well short and from a directional standpoint the dispersion on mis-hit cavity backs was much bigger than the dispersion on blades.

 

I think some of the older blades were problematic in that they had such a low clubhead MOI that if you missed the sweetspot my more than 1 dimple, you were probably punished too much for it. I have an old set of MacGregor 985 Tourney Customs that were like that. However, the Hogan irons, which I have:

 

1963 Hogan IPT

1967 Hogan Percussion 5

1970 Hogan Bounce Sole 1+

1983 Hogan Apex PC

 

These irons are more in line with the modern blade where you don't have to hit them dead on the sweetspot in order to hit a good shot. You can miss a little and still wind up pretty well. Probably in part why golfers loved Hogan irons so much.

 

I think the popularity of cavity backs really came from Karsten Solheim who convinced the golfing public that they were stupid for not having CB's and convinced the public that the sweetspot was a general area instead of being the size of a needle point.

 

With my 3&4-irons, I use CB also because typically on those shots, there's not much trouble long of the green because the course designers design those shots to have trouble short of the green to penalize a golfer who strikes that shot poorly. So that and the extra trajectory I get has me using CB's in those 3&4-irons. But with the 5-iron, trajectory is not an issue.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[RookieBlue7]

5.5 FCM shafts are PX's stiff flex, not half flex, but full stiff. 6.0 is between S and X, and 6.5 is X, 7.0 is half a flex above X. For reference, Dynamic Gold S300's are 5.8 FCM.

 

It's hard to say how different they are versus your dynalites because I don't have an FCM chart for them, but were I to guess, I'd imagine they're around 4.5-4.8.

 

As for the heads, blades, for the most part, are going to be shorter than other clubs except when his dead center of the sweet spot and flush when compared with a full cavity. The great news is, blades are going to also improve your ball striking if you at least practice exclusively with them. The modern blade is a hair more forgiving than their predecessors, but the original Nike Forged blade is less forgiving than the new VR Pro Blade. Why? Less mass behind the ball and more centered around the sweet spot. Not that there's a thing wrong with that. I've long contended that their original forged blade is their best iron ever, hands down, bar none. I still believe that. Loved those clubs. Wished I'd never let the TW Commemorative set go that I had, but alas, I had no choice as I was offered double what I paid for them. They were identical to his specs. 1 up, 1/2" long X100's with logo down GP Cords. Great clubs, and incredibly sweet set of irons. These are the ones I had: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/nike-tiger-woods-limited-edition-108983460

[BK in TEXAS]

5.5 FCM shafts are PX's stiff flex, not half flex, but full stiff. 6.0 is between S and X, and 6.5 is X, 7.0 is half a flex above X. For reference, Dynamic Gold S300's are 5.8 FCM.

 

It's hard to say how different they are versus your dynalites because I don't have an FCM chart for them, but were I to guess, I'd imagine they're around 4.5-4.8.

 

 

These are Rifle FCM's not ProjectX....does that matter in the flex's you mentioned above?

[JMiller]

Just to kind of elaborate on my posts, feel and real are two different things. A Rifle / PX might feel "harsh" in the load / lag but that really doesn't speak anything for how the tip is going to preform in that shaft. I might say the load factor feels like a 1/2 flex stiffer then the tip section plays more like the flex designated for the shaft on average.

 

KBS is the opposite of PX where those shafts tend to feel like they are a 1/2 flex softer then they really are. Where the load on the shaft feels very "smooth" in the KBS the tip section still preforms up to expectations in that flex on average. TT DG seems to be the testing ground and comparison in feel terms line for other shafts higher or lower. They are the middle ground or average feel for load per flex to me at least.

 

As for the CBs and Blade yes a 1/4" miss on a blade is going to change total distance a ton more then it would on a CB. If you miss the shot 1/4" heel side it's not as bad as if you missed it 1/4" toe, that is the truth of it.

 

Another note to make is that a true sweet spot on any golf club is really in the true physical center of the golf club. Irons a lot of times it isn't on the center line either espesually with blades it sits about 1/8" to 1/4" inside the physical vertical center line towards the heel. You might test to figure out where the true sweet spot is on the blades compared to where you are hitting them at.

[ZenGolfer]

Good post R3J, I couldn't agree more about the comparison from blade to CB trajectory and distance control. It sort of boggled my mind a little how 5 shoots on the exact same spot of a CB will result in distances that have a +/- 10 yard spread to my target distance. For Blades I have found it is cut in 1/2 or even less for my swing and target distances personally.

 

Here is an interesting read for the debate of MBs versus CBs --> http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

 

I am not sure if the modern blades really fits this compared to the modern players CBs this was back in the 1990s we are talking about here, I would like to see the research done again with today's equipment.

Its a pretty well-known fact that blades have much more consistent distances than CBs do. Thats why most pros play blades. With CBs you will sometime hit the hot spot on the face and hit the ball 10 yards farther but with blades you dont get that, likely because of how much smaller the sweetspot is. LOL Thats another why I prefer blades: much more consistent distances.

[BK in TEXAS]

5.5 FCM shafts are PX's stiff flex, not half flex, but full stiff. 6.0 is between S and X, and 6.5 is X, 7.0 is half a flex above X. For reference, Dynamic Gold S300's are 5.8 FCM.

 

It's hard to say how different they are versus your dynalites because I don't have an FCM chart for them, but were I to guess, I'd imagine they're around 4.5-4.8.

 

 

OK...I got the shaft flexes confused.

 

If what I just read about [PX 5.0 = Rifle 5.5 = 5.5 FCM] is true, I wanted Rifles in 4.5 or Rifles 5.0 softstepped 2X , NOT the 5.5's I have.

 

That would most likely account for the loss of yardage, and the "boardy" feel, no?

[RookieBlue7]

Yes it would. They're never loading.

[RookieBlue7]

These are Rifle FCM's not ProjectX....does that matter in the flex's you mentioned above?

 

The numbers Rifle used to use and PX now uses are one in the same, FCM frequency slopes.

[BK in TEXAS]

Thank you.

[RookieBlue7]

Hmm.... seems I misspoke before consulting my chart. The Rifle's are like you originally stated. Rifle 5.0=5.5 FCM. I just checked the shaft chart I have and it tells a different story. I was trying to go off of memory from my phone and when I got home a few minutes ago, I consulted my chart. So if you soft step those twice, they come out to 4.7 FCM, which is .1 FCM below Dynamic Gold R300.

[BK in TEXAS]

Do you mean Rifle 5.0 = 5.0 FCM

ProjectX 5.0 = 5.5 FCM ?

[RookieBlue7]

Do you mean Rifle 5.0 = 5.0 FCM

ProjectX 5.0 = 5.5 FCM ?

 

According to the chart, Rifle 5.0 is as stated in my correction post.

[BK in TEXAS]

That's whats confusing me because the charts I've been finding online show the PX's as a half FCM higher(5.0 = 5.5 FCM), and Regular Rifles as even (5.0 = 5.0 FCM)

[JMiller]

That's whats confusing me because the charts I've been finding online show the PX's as a half FCM higher(5.0 = 5.5 FCM), and Regular Rifles as even (5.0 = 5.0 FCM)

 

Feel and real are two different things... PX will FEEL about a 1/2 flex stiffer then they really play that is what I was posting about the "harsh" feeling in the load of the PX shaft, that doesn't say anything about what they tip section is doing at impact however. KBS might FEEL 1/2 flex softer then the rating they list but the tip section plays like you might expect from that flex.

 

As with everything in golf FEEL is not REAL

[ZenGolfer]

Hmmmm, maybe that explains my issues with the 5.5 on my MP Fli-Hi. Perhaps I need to look into going with a slightly softer shaft because I dont feel like Im loading the shaft as much as I should and I tend to block a fair amount of shots with it.

[gdiddy]

Just got fit for new shafts in my Adams A12 pro forged irons. And the KBS shaft that was standard felt very harsh a=on all but the best contact shots.

Now mishits give a little vibration or tickle in the hands pure shots are like a kiss from Jennifer Anniston or choose your own dream kiss.

The ball shoots off the club face and looks like its floating while it flies 15 yards longer. So nice I almost made in my pants.

The only advice is find an iron which you like the look of and then get fit by some one who knows how to fit and teach or works very closely with a teacher.

[BK in TEXAS]

The Dynalite's are working perfectly. Loft for loft I'm getting the same distance as my GI's.....I just enjoy hitting them more!