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The long putter issue is a challenge thats for sure; the UK media talked about pretty much nothing else (well apart from the weather - but thats what we do in the UK) throughout the Open and it took away from an enthralling event.

 

However is it as big an issue as is being suggested? Not sure. But whatever, USGA and R&A need to agree a position and quick because frankly equipment discussions shouldn't be how we remember major tournaments.

 

Myself, I've putted with a belly putter for some time, but if the powers that be decide to ban them I'll buy into it. Frankly my putting is a bit dodgy fullstop; short or long putter - I hole more short putts with the belly but distance putting is better with the short stick. I wonder what looks I'd get if I carried two putters?

 

By the way, anyone seen some players 'belly' chipping? Do you ban anchoring any club, or just putters over certain lengths....

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I have been looking for statistics on those players using longer putter and honestly they are not availible. You have to look up each individual player and see who is using what. But there are some big names I know are using long putters. Now for the first time that I know of 5 of the top 20 in the WGR are using long putters.

 

This would include Matt Kuchar who, does not use an anchored putter but uses a putter that is longer than the shortest other club in his bag. Since many PGA Players carry a 64* wedge and they are typically 35.5 inches, the shortest club rule would render all of them outside the rules. Wouldn't that be funny?

 

Of course statistics are for the most part useless. Web Simpson leads the tour in birdies and second in breaking par, but he does not break the top 40 any other category. He is a mediocre player except for the fact that he scores well. Which is why he is 5th in the WGR. He has used a belly putter since college. And is 44th in over all putting.

 

We can not use Kuchar as an example because while he may using a putter that may someday be dubbed as illegal, he does not anchor it. He simply had a 36" putter that he added 3 inches to and then like it so added 2 more inches. A 41" putter. He is 9th in WGR and 29th in putting. He and Ernie are the only users of long putter to break the top 40 in total putting stats. Els is 15th WGR and 39th in putting.

 

Adam Scott is 6th in WGR and 148th in putting.

 

Dustin Johnson is 16th WGR and 81st in putting.

 

Top 4 WGR and putting totals are:(short putter)

 

Luke Donald 1st

Tiger Woods 12th

Rory Mclroy 66th

Lee Westwood 122th

 

So the fascinating thing is not only can good putting not be linked to a long putter, good putting can not even be linked to being in the top 20 in the world. Tiger and Luke are the only ones who even break the top 20 stats in putting. And if it is putt for dough Westwood and Scott must be taking in other players laundry to pay the bills because they are at the bottom of the putting stats.

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Welcome Westy....Believe me, the weather's not much better here, rainy, humid and probably hotter.....Nothin like sweatin in the rain!....

 

Pelz actually suggested this in one of his Golf Magazine articles...He said that instead of carrying 4 wedges, cut one out and insert a long putter and traditional length putter...

 

 

I tried this once and it was like going out with your wife and your mistress. You never know which one to pay the most attentions too.:P

 

That was actually someone else's line I have never been stupid enough to have a wife and a girlfriend at the same time. As an aside, I do not know if being married satisfies my needs or just proves two of them are too much hassel.:rolleyes: Back to putters.

 

To me I do not think it is a question of distance as much as a question of break. Putts requiring more speed control are easier with a short putter and straighter are easier with a long putter, but if you are switching back and forth then you may lose some of the feel with the short putter thus giving up any value you may have with it. Not only that it adds an additional question to how hard to hit it and how much it breaks, you now have which club do you use.

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I haven't gotten involved in this topic but it's time I think. I'm really wondering why now? The anchored long putter has been around for nearly 30 years so why now? I could understand then but why now? Why not when Orville Moody was using it on the Champions (then Senior) tour or when VJ and Bernard Langer were using it on the regular tour? Why now? All of the sudden?

 

I get the concern but it seems to me the horse is way out of the barn. You have a generation of younger players that have grown up using some sort of anchored putter and style. They did it because it was legal.

 

So why now?

 

I have no real horse in this race, dont' use one, never have and really thought it should have been illegalized a long time ago - but now? It's too late and it's unfair to make it illegal.

 

That's my take

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I haven't gotten involved in this topic but it's time I think. I'm really wondering why now? The anchored long putter has been around for nearly 30 years so why now? I could understand then but why now? Why not when Orville Moody was using it on the Champions (then Senior) tour or when VJ and Bernard Langer were using it on the regular tour? Why now? All of the sudden?

 

I get the concern but it seems to me the horse is way out of the barn. You have a generation of younger players that have grown up using some sort of anchored putter and style. They did it because it was legal.

 

So why now?

 

I have no real horse in this race, dont' use one, never have and really thought it should have been illegalized a long time ago - but now? It's too late and it's unfair to make it illegal.

 

That's my take

 

I agree that they have waited 30 years too late to rule against this. I can understand them ruling in favor of them, saying that there is no statistical evidence that the long putters offer any advantage over the short putter, and thus putting the issue to rest. Any other decision is too late.

 

I read that Jim Furyk said the other day that if the USGA came out against the long putter, the PGA Tour Rules committee of which he is a member could rule to allow long putters if the USGA ruled against them. I thought that was a shot fired across the bow of the USGA and R&A that said do not mess with this rule. Furyk went on to say that he does not use one but a lot of guys do and they have a say in the rules and he is their representative.

 

I read that 20 to 30 percent of pros are using the long putter. A lot of anal-ists (intentional misspelling) say that the pros will just pick up short putters and go about their business, and some like Ernie Els might, but I do not see them just rolling over and giving them up without a fight.

 

If you feel that you putt the best with this type of putter, and have been doing this for many years in some cases, changing it now would be huge.

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I agree that they have waited 30 years too late to rule against this. I can understand them ruling in favor of them, saying that there is no statistical evidence that the long putters offer any advantage over the short putter, and thus putting the issue to rest. Any other decision is too late.

 

I read that Jim Furyk said the other day that if the USGA came out against the long putter, the PGA Tour Rules committee of which he is a member could rule to allow long putters if the USGA ruled against them. I thought that was a shot fired across the bow of the USGA and R&A that said do not mess with this rule. Furyk went on to say that he does not use one but a lot of guys do and they have a say in the rules and he is their representative.

 

I read that 20 to 30 percent of pros are using the long putter. A lot of anal-ists (intentional misspelling) say that the pros will just pick up short putters and go about their business, and some like Ernie Els might, but I do not see them just rolling over and giving them up without a fight.

 

If you feel that you putt the best with this type of putter, and have been doing this for many years in some cases, changing it now would be huge.

 

I've always liked Furyk, but if he stands up for the players and makes sure they get a say in all of this, then he's moved up a huge notch in my book.

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To me it's simply a matter of fairness - you've allowed it for 30 years - no surprise that Jim Furyk would want to protect his piers and better that he doesn't use one of those putters.

 

Typically there is no real evidence of an issue here beyond anyway as RR points out.

 

You can't roll back the ball either by the way - you've allowed the modern ball for 12 years - kids are taught to launch it assuming they will be allowed to play with modern equipment - that horse is out of the barn, too.

 

The USGA has to learn that this is the real world - people learn the game based upon being able to play a certain way - If you don't want a style of play you best legislate for it before it happens rather than allowing it to go on for long enough that you have an entire generation of players doing it.

 

Anyway the game isn't quite so easy as they make it sound and there's a simple solution to the matter of distance - just narrow the fairways and let the rough grow to the point that it's unplayable at a certain distance off the tee -

 

That takes care of that one.

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I have been doing a lot of thinking about the indirect snow ball that would happen from banning anchored putters only from the professional levels. If we ban JUST for "professionals" in the sport then you have a lot of things that would change.

 

Golf Professionals (Club Pros) all would have to play non-anchored putter as they are technically a classification of a "professional" and have tournaments to qualify for the PGA Championship every year.

 

 

 

Don't think most of you really care about that point, some might. However, I have thought of some interesting things that COULD snow ball from "professionals" having anchored putters banned from their tools. I think it effects AMs indirectly, mostly top amateurs and in the future 10 years from now.

 

UP Open / Open qualification tournaments would be non-anchored. The US AM, Us Mid-AM or other am tournaments that qualify for places to play in professional tournaments as an amateur would probably need to change their rules as well.

 

When you have all the very top level tournament for AMs as non-anchored putters I would be willing to bet college might even adapt the rule, or at least the top players in college will use non-anchored, sort of like some college players use wood bats in baseball when they can still play metal.

 

Now, if a young person wants to have a dream of making the tour or playing college golf and in big AM tournaments they are going to want to use the non-anchored putter because it would be silly to spend 10,000 hours using something a professional can not. They might fall on their face when deciding to turn pro if they are using anchored growing up then can't use it at the professional level.

 

Some people playing for money might feel that they will not play anyone that is using a anchored putter against their short putter, pretty obvious that the professionals find it as an advantage, people might not want to piss away money on that slight edge. I know I sort of feel that way already but deal with it more then I would if it gets banned for professionals.

 

 

 

WEll, one last thing. We have seen a change already put into the rules to grandfather equipment out directly, the groove rule. Professionals = 2010, Top Amateur Tournaments = 2014, Everyone else 2024 by time 2024 rolls around everything that is not confirming will have no grooves in the first place and have lass spin then conforming do.

 

Shall we see something like that with the anchored putter. Maybe because I feel it happens indirectly anyways assuming it does ever get banned in the first place for professionals.

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I ran across an article by Bob Verdi about the WGC-Bridgestone and Furyk leading and how great he was putting which of course lead the article into the putter issue. I decided I would save some of the quotes if this subject raised its ugly head again. So here is what some of the people said about this issue.

 

 

Jim Furyk says in response to a message to him as player rep. from Mike Davis, the executive director of the United States Golf Association.

 

"He wants to talk, which is great. I have a lot of respect for Mike. I suspect it's about my feelings on the long and belly putters. There are all sorts of rumors about them being banned. I'm against that. They've been around for 30 years. It's a knee-jerk reaction to guys winning majors with them lately. Keegan Bradley, Webb Simpson, Ernie Els. I also have no problem with bifurcation of rules. If pros play different golf than amateurs, I have no issue with that. I might be wrong, but those are my opinions."

 

Steve Williams says:

 

"I can understand the argument against anchoring. But the two most important aspects of putting are reading the green and hitting the ball on line with the proper speed. The long putter helps you at neither."

 

Carl Pettersson says:

 

"I started with the long putter in 1997, right after my sophomore year at North Carolina State," he said. "Tim Clark, same school, maybe a few months apart from me. Now I hear chatter, a lot of chatter, about it being outlawed and it's a big concern for me. Even if there's a four-year window before a ban goes into effect, I'm still 15 years behind. If you're going to ban things, what about hybrids? They're easier to hit than a 2- or 3-iron. What about these drivers with giant heads?

 

"Besides, if the long putter is so easy to use, why isn't everybody doing it? Believe me, it's not like you can't still twitch with the long putter. Or pull it or push it. You still have to make a proper stroke. And I believe, whereas with the belly putter your grip is in touch with the body, with the long putter it's your hand. The case against that is that the hand is an extension of the grip. I don't agree. And I don't think a ban would be fair. There are other issues for golf, I would think. Pace of play, the fact that growth is flat. This is still a rich man's game. Make it more affordable. Get more juniors involved. If they ban the long putter, does that really help grow the sport?"

 

Butch Harmon says:

 

"I agree on that one point," he said. "If it's so easy to use the long putters, why isn't everybody using them? I'm not a big fan on them because it requires anchoring them. But there are a lot of strange parts to golf. We are the only professional sport governed by an amateur body. We bring our own ball to the arena. I think we could have two sets of rules, like every other sport, for the pros and the amateurs. If you are a recreational golfer who's got the yips and wants to use the long putter, so what? I don't know what's going to happen. It will be interesting. I like what Jose Maria Olazabal said. Instead of banning this and banning that, limit the number of clubs in the bag to 10 and we'll see who can really hit shots and who can really play."

 

 

 

 

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Good quotes RR.

 

I just kind of wanted to think and talk about what MIGHT happen if there were a split in the rules between Amateurs and Professionals. I was just using the anchored putter debate as a platform to spring board it.

 

I feel that if the long putter were to get banned in the Professional ranks it indirectly snow balls down to the highest level of AM play at the very least. Take college baseball, professional have to use wood bats, some college players elect to use the wood bat even though they are entitled to use the metal bat at that level as a preparation to possibly turn professional after college.

 

 

Jim Furyk says in response to a message to him as player rep. from Mike Davis, the executive director of the United States Golf Association.

 

"He wants to talk, which is great. I have a lot of respect for Mike. I suspect it's about my feelings on the long and belly putters. There are all sorts of rumors about them being banned. I'm against that. They've been around for 30 years. It's a knee-jerk reaction to guys winning majors with them lately. Keegan Bradley, Webb Simpson, Ernie Els. I also have no problem with bifurcation of rules. If pros play different golf than amateurs, I have no issue with that. I might be wrong, but those are my opinions."

I think that Jim needs to figure out how to close again, 2 times this year he has thrown up on himself in the last 1 to 2 holes of a tournament he was leading going into. Funny that no one talks about Furyk melt downs this year but wants to give Adam Scott a hard time about his. Maybe a long putter would help Jim close a tournament and he is thinking that he should switch.

 

Steve Williams says:

 

"I can understand the argument against anchoring. But the two most important aspects of putting are reading the green and hitting the ball on line with the proper speed. The long putter helps you at neither."

 

Probably not a good person to give an opinion on anything in golf currently. Not a lot of people respect this guy plus he is just a caddie. He let Adam Scott hit a 3wood or even gave him that club to hit on the 18th tee, stupid club selection either way, I have to question his logic on this matter along with other things.

 

 

Carl Pettersson says:

 

"I started with the long putter in 1997, right after my sophomore year at North Carolina State," he said. "Tim Clark, same school, maybe a few months apart from me. Now I hear chatter, a lot of chatter, about it being outlawed and it's a big concern for me. Even if there's a four-year window before a ban goes into effect, I'm still 15 years behind. If you're going to ban things, what about hybrids? They're easier to hit than a 2- or 3-iron. What about these drivers with giant heads?

 

"Besides, if the long putter is so easy to use, why isn't everybody doing it? Believe me, it's not like you can't still twitch with the long putter. Or pull it or push it. You still have to make a proper stroke. And I believe, whereas with the belly putter your grip is in touch with the body, with the long putter it's your hand. The case against that is that the hand is an extension of the grip. I don't agree. And I don't think a ban would be fair. There are other issues for golf, I would think. Pace of play, the fact that growth is flat. This is still a rich man's game. Make it more affordable. Get more juniors involved. If they ban the long putter, does that really help grow the sport?"

 

A professional can hit a hybrid on the sweet spot just like they can a long iron. The hybrid offers a higher trajectory, more moi, and more give on slight miss hits. Professionals still turn to the 2irons a lot of times in very windy conditions to keep the ball lower. The Hybrid is designed to help AM golfers more so then a professional.

 

The big headed drivers don't help you hit the ball straighter. The golf ball design is to blame for longer and straighter shots not a driver, maybe Carol needs to watch a bunch on 30 handicaps hit 30 to 50 yard slices off the tee before making a comment about big drivers. Yes they have increased MOI, more give on off center hits, most professionals don't even play the 460cc max I would have to guess that the average is somewhere between 420cc and 450cc on tour, good players tend to like the look of a smaller head. Again a professional finds the true sweet spot of the driver and the size won't really matter for them, the bigger head gives AMs more confidence to make contact with the ball.

 

Sure you can steer a putter with your hands regardless of the style of putter you are using and how huge the grip on the putter happens to be. Wrist rotation effects all golf shots, it is sort of how you tend to hit a draw or hook by letting the wrists turn the head over into impact.

 

The reason that everyone doesn't use them is that the persons perspective of the the line at address is going to be different, everyone technically could be fitted to a belly putter or long putter by just extending the short putter shaft until it gets anchored to a part of the body. But that also brings in the point that everyone can be fitted to a non-anchored putter as well by just cutting off the shaft at a given point to match their natural posture to see the line of the putt at address the best.

 

I don't really see Carl's argument in using hybrids and drivers as a point for anchoring a putter. Plus like I just said I can't see his point for the use of them the fact that not everyone uses them.

 

I think the Equipment needs to get cheaper to help the growth of the game but, golf course green fee prices you have a ton of options from $20 public course to most exclusive and expensive private country clubs to pick from regardless of the sport someone has to fund the "arena" that the sport is played on so that it stays in playable conditions. In most professional sports that gets founded by ticket holders, and sponsors.

 

I do agree with Carol on one thing that the growth of the game is important, where the growth in the US might be "flat" I would have to say it is huge in again countries and getting a really big boom over their and other over seas markets. Golf has become more global then it was, which is a good thing.

 

 

Butch Harmon says:

 

"I agree on that one point," he said. "If it's so easy to use the long putters, why isn't everybody using them? I'm not a big fan on them because it requires anchoring them. But there are a lot of strange parts to golf. We are the only professional sport governed by an amateur body. We bring our own ball to the arena. I think we could have two sets of rules, like every other sport, for the pros and the amateurs. If you are a recreational golfer who's got the yips and wants to use the long putter, so what? I don't know what's going to happen. It will be interesting. I like what Jose Maria Olazabal said. Instead of banning this and banning that, limit the number of clubs in the bag to 10 and we'll see who can really hit shots and who can really play."

 

Again, you can properly fit anyone for a anchored putter but then again you can fit anyone for a non-anchored putter as well. Most of the time people that use the long putter do so because it helps them with posture, a reference, stop yips, something that provides them an advantage over the non-anchored putter. If you split the rules between professionals and AMs I am all for it, but it will probably snow ball into the top AM events eventually.

 

 

 

 

In my opinion there is a big difference between a "long putter" and a "anchored putter". A long putter just describes the total length of it being longer then say 35", doesn't mean directly it is attached to the body, you can putt with a 50" putter that doesn't get anchored if you really wanted to.

 

 

I guess not a lot of people think about this but wouldn't anchoring a putter be pretty close and not that far from the imagination of Rule 13-2 & 13-3 in building a stance? I mean heck just taking a shot from your knees with a towel under your knees so they won't get wet is considered building a stance and it provides no advantage at all to the swing.

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I guess not a lot of people think about this but wouldn't anchoring a putter be pretty close and not that far from the imagination of Rule 13-2 & 13-3 in building a stance? I mean heck just taking a shot from your knees with a towel under your knees so they won't get wet is considered building a stance and it provides no advantage at all to the swing.

 

This arguement is as stupid as the R&A saying the long putter is an advantage in the wind because you can use it to steady yourself. Please explain to me which end of the club you are swinging if one end is anchored to your belly and the other end is used to build a stance or to steady yourself in the wnd. Does that mean you are swinging the third end to hit the ball?:)

 

I am sort of running out of ends on my putter when I do that.

 

By the way, I just saw all those quotes about the long putter in the article and saved them if for when the topic came up again.

 

While I agree that Furyk did sort of melt down in the US Open. I do not necessarily agree on the WGC. He did not blow a huge lead, yes he made a double bogey and missed a seemingly easy putt, but Keegan had just poured in a 15 footer to make an outstanding par, and Furyk had just had two bad lies from the deep grass. Faldo had a segment that aired earlier in the week about the grain of the grass and how it affected the chips, and how difficult it could be. Then Furyk does the same thing that Faldo demonstrated could happen, and Faldo says it was inexcusable. Furyk missed the putt but when I watched it back on Monday replay, it was not that bad a putt. Oosthuzen (spelling?) had just missed a putt that did not break until after the hole, not on Furyks line but you could still tell Furyks was going to break. Furyk took three good looks at it and then hit the putt and it went straight until past the hole. Maybe he hit it too hard, he certainly had the adrenaline pumping but I would not call that a meltdown. BUt it was certainly disappointing.

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I am not a fan of them, at all. Looking at the legends of golf putting with blades, is pure. The equipment has come so far to make it a different game. These putters need to go on the professional level.

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This is as good a place as any to tell this story. Monday they airated the greens at my club so the putts were bouncing pretty badly. I ended up playing 15 holes with two guys that are usually pretty good. Anyway, I was using my belly putter. And they were giving me a hard time about using an "old man putter". However, I was like 3 holes up when they started that.

 

Then we get to the 13th hole, a par 3, and all of us are on the green, and all almost exactly the same distance from the tee box. They started talking about how we all hit the ball exactly the same distance, one guy has a set of TMag Burner 2.0 and the other guy has RBZ's, and I had the Mizzies. They were talking about they both hit 8 irons. And asked what I hit, I said 7 but my Mizzy 7 iron was the same as their TMag 8 irons, and they then started talking about how much better engineered the TMag's were because they went farther. I did not argue with them that and only said if their clubs are so much better than mine, how come I was 3 strokes up and putting last (closest to the hole) on this hole. It was good natured arguing, and I left that hole 4 holes up, but had to leave after 2 more holes. And shot a 1 over par on horrible greens. I had a 12 foot putt break, bounce,5 different directions on that green and stop in a punch mark a 1/2 inch from the hole. But that is course maintenance for you.

 

 

This was just good-natured ribbing about the "old man putter" and I do not use it all the time, but I could see if they were outlawed at any level some people would have a huge problem with it. There are only about 6 or so people that I have seen at my club that use them. However, I can see this issue filtering down, more so than the groove issue. Most people do not see that the grooves make any difference at their level. since they can not spin the ball anyway. But the can see a long putter.

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Graeme McDowell just offered his opinion on the long putter. He told how much of an advantage it is, and how he looks forward to the R&A and USGA "leveling the playing field". He offered the evidence of all the different major winners have used the belly putter and the fact that long putter finished 1st and 2nd in The Open. B.S. He said that the pressure was much easier to handle on the back 9 on Sunday with a long putter. This reasoning is perhaps the reason there was an outcry a few years ago for drug testing. He was obviously smoking something if he thinks the long putter is insurance against a back 9 meltdown.

 

If they are such an advantage why does he not have one. Can he not afford it?

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Have not tried one but understand where some people are having issue with putters being anchor to the body. Personally I'm very much a traditionalist and feels a putter stroke is part of a golf swing and therefore should not be anchor to the body in any way.

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This arguement is as stupid as the R&A saying the long putter is an advantage in the wind because you can use it to steady yourself. Please explain to me which end of the club you are swinging if one end is anchored to your belly and the other end is used to build a stance or to steady yourself in the wnd. Does that mean you are swinging the third end to hit the ball?:)

RR, I agree to the point it IS stupid, just like kneeling on a towel is "building a stance" I don't see how by kneeling on a towel you improve anything, you are making a swing from your knees I am heck. Kneeling on a towel is "building a stance" to gain an advantage, I was only suggesting that MAYBE in the minds of the USGA and R&A the anchored putter is also "building a stance" to gain an advantage.

 

Not my personal opinion, just a talking topic, I sometimes play devils advocate on purpose.

 

While I agree that Furyk did sort of melt down in the US Open. I do not necessarily agree on the WGC. He did not blow a huge lead, yes he made a double bogey and missed a seemingly easy putt, but Keegan had just poured in a 15 footer to make an outstanding par, and Furyk had just had two bad lies from the deep grass. Faldo had a segment that aired earlier in the week about the grain of the grass and how it affected the chips, and how difficult it could be. Then Furyk does the same thing that Faldo demonstrated could happen, and Faldo says it was inexcusable. Furyk missed the putt but when I watched it back on Monday replay, it was not that bad a putt. Oosthuzen (spelling?) had just missed a putt that did not break until after the hole, not on Furyks line but you could still tell Furyks was going to break. Furyk took three good looks at it and then hit the putt and it went straight until past the hole. Maybe he hit it too hard, he certainly had the adrenaline pumping but I would not call that a meltdown. BUt it was certainly disappointing.

 

I call it a meltdown because the same exact thing happened off the tee in both the US Open and WGC that cost him. A nasty snap hook left and a bad lie to recover from. Now the short putt that was missed on 18 was hit too hard, that sucker went at least 4 feet past the hole. Jim tried to slam it home and missed completely not even a lip out. I was sort of being a smart a$$ about Furyk's comments I'm sure he made them before the WGC.

 

Well, I can see how grain can effect chips / pitches from very deep nasty lies, you have to adjust the speed in which the club enters that grass based on grain and grass type. Deep Bermuda rough is probably going to be a lot worse into the grain then deep bentgrass rough. Both snag the club head more then if it were down grain. But these are professionals and probably should be able to adjust pretty easily. Sorry the grain of grass crap in chipping is way OT my fault.

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I call it a meltdown because the same exact thing happened off the tee in both the US Open and WGC that cost him. A nasty snap hook left and a bad lie to recover from. Now the short putt that was missed on 18 was hit too hard, that sucker went at least 4 feet past the hole. Jim tried to slam it home and missed completely not even a lip out. I was sort of being a smart a$ about Furyk's comments I'm sure he made them before the WGC.

 

Well, I can see how grain can effect chips / pitches from very deep nasty lies, you have to adjust the speed in which the club enters that grass based on grain and grass type. Deep Bermuda rough is probably going to be a lot worse into the grain then deep bentgrass rough. Both snag the club head more then if it were down grain. But these are professionals and probably should be able to adjust pretty easily. Sorry the grain of grass crap in chipping is way OT my fault.

 

He was in the fairway on 18 and perhaps a little more left than perfect but still in the fairway. He certainly miss judged the wind but then so did Bradley. He got unlucky and bounced out of the bunker and into the grass, but you are right. He is a professional. He should have done just like I did some day this week but it was not yesterday, when I had similar lies. Do not get cute and at the expense of getting on the green. You can make a long putt with some luck from anywhere on the green, but you can not putt from the deep grass. Get it on the green and worry about the hole on the next shot. I did this, and while I did not make my par today. I at least made my bogey.

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He was in the fairway on 18 and perhaps a little more left than perfect but still in the fairway. He certainly miss judged the wind but then so did Bradley. He got unlucky and bounced out of the bunker and into the grass, but you are right. He is a professional. He should have done just like I did some day this week but it was not yesterday, when I had similar lies. Do not get cute and at the expense of getting on the green. You can make a long putt with some luck from anywhere on the green, but you can not putt from the deep grass. Get it on the green and worry about the hole on the next shot. I did this, and while I did not make my par today. I at least made my bogey.

My fault then, I thought he hit a snap hook on that hole at some point sorry. But making Double bogey in the fairway is pretty dang bad.

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Okay I want to move away from the Furyk "meltdowns" and back to the point of the thread - anchored putters and two sets of rules.

 

But as an aside I want the golf bag that Jim Furyk was using last Sunday - bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

If we end up with two sets of rules we will in fact have the USGA to thank. Even when it researches matters it still makes a knee jerk decision ie. the grooves decision. It assumes that because grooves are making it easier to stop a ball out of the rough that changing the grooves will restore a premium on hitting fairways - but we've yet to see evidence that this was true nor did they do what any other sport would do and have a trial period - they just did it. I'd argue that we already have two sets of rules anyway in part at least because the USGA can't take into account the practical aspect of playing golf the way an overwhelming majority of golfers do - on a crowded public course that's not always well conditioned.

 

In regards to the anchored putter the issue is well stated by Carl Petterson - its been allowed for 30 years - there is in fact now an entire generation of professional golfers who haven't switched to it but have used it throughout their careers - it would be ridiculously unfair to tell them they have to change - I would think they'd have little trouble prevailing in a law suit or more likely winning a huge settlement alla Ping back in the 80's. It's very different from the grooves which effected everyone - this only effects some players - its ripe for that sort of cash bonanza - finanicially speaking guys using the anchored putter should be hoping that the USGA and R and A ban the thing.

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Well, you also have Ernie Els who at one point was completely against an anchored putter at one point. Now he uses one and has been quoted as saying "If they are going to let me use one, I'm going to cheat like the rest of them."

 

What does that tell you about the mind set moving forward about this issue? The more people that start winning with it the more people that will probably start switching to it. Hardly a "knee jerk reaction", yea it has been allowed for 30 years but what percentage of players actually used it on tour for the last 30 years? Maybe we need to get a base line and the percentage of anchored putters between then and now. I would be willing to guess that the percentage of players anchoring putters now is a ton higher. So the issue only needs look at now as it starts to really gain traction where before it might have been 1 or 2 guys now it seems to be about 50% of the top 25 in the world golf rankings (I'm guessing on that not really an accurate number).

 

I would love to see anyone sue over the ban of an anchored putter, would love it. On what grounds can you legally sue someone over the equipment that is required for a professional sport? It hasn't happened in MLB, NFL, NHL, etc yet and they all regulate equipment and rules that are different from the amateur level of sports. You can't sit there and say it is anything do do with medical reasons, as if you can swing a driver that's not anchored at 80mph or more club head speed you can make a little putting stroke with a club that is not anchored as well. A full swing puts a ton of stress on the body, if you healthy enough to make a full swing you're healthy enough to make a little put without anchoring the shaft.

 

As for OEMs attempting to sue they didn't do it when the groove rule was changed, they used it as a marketing tool actually. Also, it probably boosted their review in irons and wedges in 2010 and to currently if I had to guess from the players like myself switching or players that didn't want to switch stocking up on the old-grooves while they still could. Either way it was actually GOOD for OEM business.

 

What needs changed to convert a long putter into a short one again? The weight of the head needs reduced that the shaft needs to be cut down. Not really all that hard to have happen. Besides, if it did get banned for AMs they would grandfather it out like they have been doing the grooves. First make the pros switch, then 4 years later make top AMs switch then 20 years later from the Top AMs make all AMs switch, just have the OEMs stop producing them after a given point and allow time for them to clean out innovatory and presto no law suits.

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Okay I want to move away from the Furyk "meltdowns" and back to the point of the thread - anchored putters and two sets of rules.

 

But as an aside I want the golf bag that Jim Furyk was using last Sunday - bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

If we end up with two sets of rules we will in fact have the USGA to thank. Even when it researches matters it still makes a knee jerk decision ie. the grooves decision. It assumes that because grooves are making it easier to stop a ball out of the rough that changing the grooves will restore a premium on hitting fairways - but we've yet to see evidence that this was true nor did they do what any other sport would do and have a trial period - they just did it. I'd argue that we already have two sets of rules anyway in part at least because the USGA can't take into account the practical aspect of playing golf the way an overwhelming majority of golfers do - on a crowded public course that's not always well conditioned.

 

In regards to the anchored putter the issue is well stated by Carl Petterson - its been allowed for 30 years - there is in fact now an entire generation of professional golfers who haven't switched to it but have used it throughout their careers - it would be ridiculously unfair to tell them they have to change - I would think they'd have little trouble prevailing in a law suit or more likely winning a huge settlement alla Ping back in the 80's. It's very different from the grooves which effected everyone - this only effects some players - its ripe for that sort of cash bonanza - finanicially speaking guys using the anchored putter should be hoping that the USGA and R and A ban the thing.

 

I mostly agree with this, although I am not sure about the lawsuits. It is my experience that the lawyers make the most money in that event. But the USGA said it would be three years before we could see the effects of the groove rule. BS. These guys had months to practice with them and they have done the same thing I have. Instead of flying the ball to the hole, they are flying the ball short of the hole and letting it run out. If the pin is close to the front, they are laying up a bit farther back and taking a fuller swing to get the spin, Heck if I can figure that out the guys who do this for a living had it figured out before the rule went into effect. It had no change on the pros, the majority of the Ams. do not know or care and can not spin the ball anyway. Also the Spinner shafts, which I got my first one of this week, almost make up the difference, to this was a useless rule that detracted from the game and they only ones who benefited was the wedge manufacturers.

 

The issue of anchored putters give some people an advantage coming down the stretch is also hogwash. Keegan Bradley may have an advantage but no one else has really demonstrated that. Plus, can these guys not afford a long putter if it is that much of an advantage. They get them for free anyway, actually they are paid to play them in many cases. It does no good to be able to make putts on Thursday and Friday and not make them on Sunday. So get the putter that "gives you an advantage coming down the stretch."

 

I actually think that they will rule that they are legal, and will remain legal, and that this is the way it will be. The media is stirring this debate mainly because it gets people interested in what is going on and drives up ratings.

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I actually think that they will rule that they are legal, and will remain legal, and that this is the way it will be. The media is stirring this debate mainly because it gets people interested in what is going on and drives up ratings.

 

I seriously wonder what the R&A and USGA actually think, and more importantly, what the player's union thinks (are they in a union?). We hear everything through the filter of the media and they know it pisses people off to ban it, so they fan the flames as much as possible.

 

I disagree with banning it, but in the end it won't change anything for me. I gotta say I'm tired of the media coverage already.

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I seriously wonder what the R&A and USGA actually think, and more importantly, what the player's union thinks (are they in a union?). We hear everything through the filter of the media and they know it pisses people off to ban it, so they fan the flames as much as possible.

 

I disagree with banning it, but in the end it won't change anything for me. I gotta say I'm tired of the media coverage already.

 

I do not think they are a union. They are all independant contractors but they do elect players to represent their views on the rules committee. Jim Furyk is the dude. I wish I would have kept the quote, but he did say the other day that they could decide to go against the USGA and R&A and play by whatever rule they wanted. They talked about it with the grooves rule but it was not a big enough deal. This could be. The only tournaments it would effect is The Open and the PGA, but how big would a Major be if the players did not show. Imagine all the long putter guys playing in the Southern Classic instead of The Open.

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I do not think they are a union. They are all independant contractors but they do elect players to represent their views on the rules committee. Jim Furyk is the dude. I wish I would have kept the quote, but he did say the other day that they could decide to go against the USGA and R&A and play by whatever rule they wanted. They talked about it with the grooves rule but it was not a big enough deal. This could be. The only tournaments it would effect is The Open and the PGA, but how big would a Major be if the players did not show. Imagine all the long putter guys playing in the Southern Classic instead of The Open.

 

I can see it now, Tiger Woods switches stances on anchored putters and encourages long putters to make a stand by boycotting the two Opens, which he'd incidentally still play in :lol:

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I've got to go back to the Lawsuit comment.

 

I'm sorry to disagree with those who might think it impossible - I can't speak to other sports but I do know for certain that the USGA has faced two major lawsuits over the past 25 years and that they've lost both times - once being forced to settle out of court for a huge amount of money and the other time being embarrased because they refused to allow a disabled participant to ride a golf cart in the US Open.

 

Don't think for a moment that a sharp attorney couldn't cobble together a case similar to Pings, demonstarting that like Ping the anchored putter had been ruled conforming and worst of all that an entire generation of players has been allowed to grow up developing their games around this type of putter.

 

I'm not a lawyer - obviously the USGA believed that Ping could prevail in court and their settlement provides very good fodder for a lawsuit at any attempt to change rules regarding already approved equipment or playing styles.

 

Just a hunch

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Pings lawsuit had no evidence compared to this case. There is no evidence that the longer putters help anyone, let alone enough to pull the plug on them, but there is certainly evidence that they have been legal for 30 years and this will impair their livelihood.

 

I was talking to one of my lawyer friends today and he was telling about getting the confession of a guy who walked naked into a convenient store late at night and asking for cigarettes and then after getting arrested for Public Intoxication after admitting he was drunk. Since by definition Public Intoxication means he is a hazard to the community or himself so he could not possibly be responsible enough to have made a binding confession.

 

If a lawyer can get that thrown out they can surely have a case here.

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At the very least there would be clear damages to ask for and the fact that the action taken is prejudicial to a group of people - As you've said RR there is far less to go on than the Ping thing and the USGA caved on that - imagine what happens with this.

 

 

But again I'm not a lawyer I'm simply going by what I know about the law and how I've observed the USGA get hammered twice.

 

I think they would be best to leave well enough alone and worry about being proactive going forward rather than reactive. That and be concerned about making rules for the real world of golf.

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The ruling bodies have taken a fair amount of heat for letting the game get out of control. I can see them taking this opportunity to re-assert their control by making a rule against anchoring. Some players may bring lawsuits but if I remember correctly lawsuits by players when croquet putting was outlawed didn't succeed. Some manufacturers may also bring suits but long putters are not a huge market. Even if those suits win, settlements should not be that large. And a ban on anchoring would create some demand for new putters which is in the favor of manufacturers. I see this as the perfect opportunity for the ruling bodies to make a stand against anchoring.

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The ruling bodies have taken a fair amount of heat for letting the game get out of control. I can see them taking this opportunity to re-assert their control by making a rule against anchoring. Some players may bring lawsuits but if I remember correctly lawsuits by players when croquet putting was outlawed didn't succeed. Some manufacturers may also bring suits but long putters are not a huge market. Even if those suits win, settlements should not be that large. And a ban on anchoring would create some demand for new putters which is in the favor of manufacturers. I see this as the perfect opportunity for the ruling bodies to make a stand against anchoring.

 

Sam Snead did not bring suit against the USGA because of croquet style puttiing. He elected to putt side saddle after that.

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I don't think those of you who are dismissing a lawsuit are thinking logically enough - the only one with a case back when the crocket style was outlawed was Snead because he was the only one doing it - no one else could reasonably bring suit because no court would hear it.

 

This is a different matter. There is an entire class of players who have been using an anchored putter for their entire careers because it was legal - they will have a case that will be heard and there will have to be a settlement.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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