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What would you pay for.......


gdiddy

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Hi all

I am wondering what you all think is a fair price to pay for 5 lessons with a pro golfer, who happens to also be a master at club fitting and building.

Including 13 new shafts and grips if needed, fit to your swing frequency and pureed using your club heads.

I am in the middle of it and can only say WOW.

Please leave your comments and I will get back with results in the next couple of weeks as it progresses

BTW the lessons are as long as needed to get you swing to the best of your ability. i.e. physical limitations.

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Normally it depends on the demographic area and market price. I know a lot of master fitters / builders that have a ton of experience that charge about $100 an hour just for the fitting. A lot of top teaching professional can range seriously a lot of money, I think Butch Harmon for example charges $500 an hour or something crazy.

 

I grew up in Southern Ohio, Dayton / Cincinnati area, not sure who you work with up in Columbus, or what price you are playing. I don't know that Columbus is a high volume golf area with a ton of nice clubs, you should be able to find someone that knows what they are doing in that area. It comes down to what your pocket book can take and how far you want to take your game. Obviously, getting to the tour would take a different line of training and such over time then just trying to get to single digit weekend player.

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Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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For my son, a set of 5 1 hour lessons cost $340. For me it's about $80 and hour if I buy more than one lesson. It's worth every penny because for once I have an instructor who knows what he's doing. When I first started, my scores actually went up quite a bit. Now that I'm getting more comfortable with my swing and short game though, my scores have been dropping almost every time I go out.

 

Going out 3 times a week (9 holes) hasn't hurt either. I just ordered a driving range mat from ebay that I'm really looking forward to. Then I can practice in my backyard using whiffle balls for full wedge shots. I even have a built in ball returner, usually called a sloped roof :). Chip shots are with real balls into a basket. Then putting in the basement on the carpet. I'll post pictures of my setup soon.

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Somewhere in the $80-$100/hour range seems to be pretty normal around here (Kansas City), most seem like they will give a pretty good discount if you commit to multiple lessons. Fittings are about $100 or so.

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Please remember this includes new shafts also.

He built a 6 iron for me to try before moving to the other clubs.

My irons are Adams A12 pro

6 iron distance with old shaft 155 yards

6 iron with new shaft 180 yards dead on target. I almost made in my pants when I hit 10+ shots I could have thrown a tarp over.

Driver and fairway woods tomorrow.

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For me, personally, I'd never pay for lessons. I come from the school of thought that I can teach myself through the magic of a video camera and repetition. I have had a friend that's an instructor look at my swing one time, and she screwed me up for about a year and some change now. I'm getting back to the groove a little with the long stick finally. Around here, though, $100 or so is about the average for the good instructors I know for an hour.

 

Fitting, if they're a good fitter,I'd pay a fwe hundred bones. That said, I do all of my own work on my clubs as well.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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For me, personally, I'd never pay for lessons. I come from the school of thought that I can teach myself through the magic of a video camera and repetition. I have had a friend that's an instructor look at my swing one time, and she screwed me up for about a year and some change now. I'm getting back to the groove a little with the long stick finally. Around here, though, $100 or so is about the average for the good instructors I know for an hour.

 

Fitting, if they're a good fitter,I'd pay a fwe hundred bones. That said, I do all of my own work on my clubs as well.

 

Can't say I'm surprised in the least... If you're content being just a single digit capper then keep trying to teach yourself. I see you're from GA- if you're anywhere near the gc of Georgia go see my buddy Rob Stocke. If he doesn't fix your game I'll pay for the lessons. Oh but there's one stipulation. Leave your ego at the door. He teaches golf for a living, just because you read or saw something online doesn't mean you are a golf pro.

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$90-120 for the fitting only

 

And right now I pay about $80 for an hour with the pro

 

I used to think I could bring myself down from beginner to single digits... but I've been stuck in the mid handicap area for about 1 year and I knew I needed help. I've had about 3 lessons in the last 3 weeks and my drives are going straighter, I can hit my hybrids off the deck and my 3W off the tee! That's an improvement for me.

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Bought a series of 5 lessons with my pro for $320. He did my fitting as well - he advertised through Groupon so the full bag fitting on a launch monitor was only $75 bucks. Master fitters around here usually get about $200 for an irons fitting or a woods fitting.

 

Bought my clubs through the pro - MP-59's for $120 per club.

 

What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
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Can't say I'm surprised in the least... If you're content being just a single digit capper then keep trying to teach yourself. I see you're from GA- if you're anywhere near the gc of Georgia go see my buddy Rob Stocke. If he doesn't fix your game I'll pay for the lessons. Oh but there's one stipulation. Leave your ego at the door. He teaches golf for a living, just because you read or saw something online doesn't mean you are a golf pro.

 

 

Golf Club of Georgia is literally right around the corner from me, and though they have a great reputation, it is a course where if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. Mere mortals do not play there. Fortunately, we have many very good alternatives in the area ( there are more than courses within a 15 radius of the Golf Club of Georgia, including a couple that host professional events).

 

I'm sure Rob is great, but if his services come at prices equivalent to everything else at GCoGA, then 5 lessons would be the same as my mortgage payment :-)

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Can't say I'm surprised in the least... If you're content being just a single digit capper then keep trying to teach yourself. I see you're from GA- if you're anywhere near the gc of Georgia go see my buddy Rob Stocke. If he doesn't fix your game I'll pay for the lessons. Oh but there's one stipulation. Leave your ego at the door. He teaches golf for a living, just because you read or saw something online doesn't mean you are a golf pro.

 

I've been a plus handicap golfer in the past, when I had time to devote to the game every day. Now I have 2 children and a 12 hour shift job and don't have time to devote to it. I practice about once a month, on a good month, (unless we're counting sessions on a LM where I'm getting numbers to crunch and figure for equipment)and play 6-8 rounds a month. And I still shoot scores that's well below the national average. So yeah, I'd say it works pretty well for me. Not everyone requires instruction nor needs it, they just need the time to be able to devote to the game and an understanding of the golf swing and what works and doesn't work for themself. I know how to fix what's wrong, but it's hard to keep that fixed when one doesn't have time to do the maintenance. Bad habits creep in, idle hands and all that.

 

FWIW, my last round, this past Saturday, I shot a +3, 75. I didn't feel like I played as well as I could have. But I'm satisfied with the score because I know I made some mistakes that if I had it to do over again I'd play the exact same way. One was a driving error that cost me a stroke. One was a poor pitch the was from being lazy. I had 24 putts which is great, IMO, considering how slow the greens are at my home course and how much I struggle on slow greens.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Varies a lot. I take my lessons from a PGA pro who is not connected to a course right now, but gives group lessons and private lessons at 2 different courses. Great guy, and his group classes are worth every penny of the 15.00 for an hour. His private rate is 4 lessons for 125.00 but gives people that take his group class on a regular basis gets 5 lessons for 125.00.

John Barry

Bring the Funk, Back to Golf

The Golfer's Trip

 

 

 

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I've been a plus handicap golfer in the past, when I had time to devote to the game every day. Now I have 2 children and a 12 hour shift job and don't have time to devote to it. I practice about once a month, on a good month, (unless we're counting sessions on a LM where I'm getting numbers to crunch and figure for equipment)and play 6-8 rounds a month. And I still shoot scores that's well below the national average. So yeah, I'd say it works pretty well for me. Not everyone requires instruction nor needs it, they just need the time to be able to devote to the game and an understanding of the golf swing and what works and doesn't work for themself. I know how to fix what's wrong, but it's hard to keep that fixed when one doesn't have time to do the maintenance. Bad habits creep in, idle hands and all that.

 

FWIW, my last round, this past Saturday, I shot a +3, 75. I didn't feel like I played as well as I could have. But I'm satisfied with the score because I know I made some mistakes that if I had it to do over again I'd play the exact same way. One was a driving error that cost me a stroke. One was a poor pitch the was from being lazy. I had 24 putts which is great, IMO, considering how slow the greens are at my home course and how much I struggle on slow greens.

 

Sounds like you're pretty good. I don't mean good at golf, I mean making excuses for yourself. I don't feel as if you'd even be coach able to be honest with you. I said check your ego and all you did was try and make me realize how good you think you are.

 

Golfers who take lessons are the ones with the best opportunity to achieve positive results. Not only bc they have a professional watching over them but mainly bc they have admitted that they need help and want to get better. Once you can check your ego and get over the fact that you're not as good as you once were then you can start to get better.

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Golf Club of Georgia is literally right around the corner from me, and though they have a great reputation, it is a course where if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. Mere mortals do not play there. Fortunately, we have many very good alternatives in the area ( there are more than courses within a 15 radius of the Golf Club of Georgia, including a couple that host professional events).

 

I'm sure Rob is great, but if his services come at prices equivalent to everything else at GCoGA, then 5 lessons would be the same as my mortgage payment :-)

 

Rob is a good friend of mine and has been a great mentor for me. He is not cheap but he is one of the best in the biz. gc of ga is a pretty awesome facility. I don't know how much but if you're seriously interested I can find out. Feel free to check out his website.

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Sounds like you're pretty good. I don't mean good at golf, I mean making excuses for yourself. I don't feel as if you'd even be coach able to be honest with you. I said check your ego and all you did was try and make me realize how good you think you are.

 

Golfers who take lessons are the ones with the best opportunity to achieve positive results. Not only bc they have a professional watching over them but mainly bc they have admitted that they need help and want to get better. Once you can check your ego and get over the fact that you're not as good as you once were then you can start to get better.

 

I don't make excuses, I also don't have time to go take lessons or practice. Bubba Watson has never taken a lesson in his life, guess you want to persuade him to take some too. Jim Furyk's coach is his dad, and it's informal. Luke Donald occasionally calls his college coach (who wasn't a swing coach). Arnold Palmer had his dad, also not a certified instructor. Know what he told him? In 5 minutes he showed him the proper grip technique and told him to not ever change it. That's it. Lee Trevino? The only instruction he ever got was from Gary Player, and it was on bunkers because his home course didn't have any. Jack Nicklaus? Grout taught him as a young boy, never at any event he played at. Jim Hermon? Never one lesson. Did they all need instruction too? Feedback and ball flight is the greatest teacher, knowing what caused the feedback to feel like it did and the ball to move the way it did. That's what several of the greatest of all time have said as well.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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There is a reason that attorneys are advised against representing themselves and physicians are dissuaded against treating themselves...If they at their level can't do it, I sure as hell am not gonna try it with my swing....

 

Great quote right here. I really wonder how good Bubba might become with a *good* swing coach. The problem is there are a lot of teachers out there that just suck. I'm really curious what someone has to go through to be considered a "PGA certified pro", because it really can't be very rigorous.

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Getting back to a fair price for assembly and the head / shaft materials, it comes down to the builder and their experience, what processes that they are offering you. Some "tour shops" charge something like $100 a club for assembly that is "like you played on tour". That doesn't include the shaft cost, heads, fitting, etc.

 

I personally negotiate with my friend / builder when I need something on his "tip", which is basically what I am giving him on top of materials for labor. I normally pay him by hour rather then by club for a job length. I look at no less then $25 an hour because I know what kind of care he takes on building my equipment, I have been next to him during most of the builds for my equipment learning about it.

 

If I have to go somewhere else besides him then I act dumb and question the person about things and just talk to them first few times I walk in their to get a feel for what they know and can do. I ask questions that I already know the answers to just to bait them, it sounds like me being a d-bag but, I got spolied and don't want some weekend hack hobbyist club builder f***ing up my clubs.

 

In short when it comes to club building I pay extra to make dang sure it is done right, I ship all my clubs to my friend in VA from NC I feel better about an extra $20 to $40 in postage shipping then have a hack destroy something. Just get insurance on the package and make sure it;s got lots of bubble wrap lol.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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RB, I wouldn't say that you're making excuses and I'm not involved in your dialogue with apprenti23, though with all do respect, the guys that you're bringing up as basically being self-taught are hall of famers and/or some of the finest golfers to walk the face of this or any other earth....Not that someone not at their level of talent, drive & dedication couldn't self teach, though I would just think that the older you are, the tougher it is...

 

I know that when I learned the game at the age of 7yo, I just swung...And swung...And swung...And I didn't think...Hell, I didn't know how to think...Which I believe on something as technically demanding as the golf swing is a good thing..

 

I was lucky in that I had a teacher who didn't change much from the swing that I had had for my first seven years playing when I started with him....Like Penick, he didn't teach or believe in a certain swing theory or methodology....

 

His thing was that good/excellent ball strikers's swings were the exact same at certain positions through out the swing & how you got into those positions was up to you...If you wanted his reccomendation, fine, however if you already had a swing grooved, he would just show you where you had to be and let you figure it out...Because of my personality, that's how he was with me.....

 

Teachers like him are very, very rare...They are the best of the best....I was very fortunate...God knows, that he should have booted me many times over, however he was a saint, never once losing his temper while I routinely lost mine...I learned more from him about non-golf issues than I did on my golf swing, and he took me to a +2...He was a gem!...

 

Anyway, have a good season RB, you obviously have a good routine going....

 

The Best....

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever.......

 

You're right, they are hall of fame guys, which is precisely why I mentioned them. Because they're proof that golf can be self taught and it can be done at a high level.

 

I don't profess to know everything, but I know what does and doesn't work for me and what I am doing right and wrong and what changes ball flights and behaviors and how I can manipulate those. Do you have a coach with you on the course? No, if you can't self correct, IMO, one needs to reevaluate why. Teachers work for a lot of people. But, if one decides to utilize their services, one also needs to realize that they need to have the time to dedicate to working on what they learn. You're not going to go and take a lesson and ingrain that lesson without practicing what you're taught. Some, on the other hand, benefit more by not being confused by differing swing thoughts and figuring it out themselves. My opinion, for me personally, is that I don't have the time to dedicate to it and even if I did, I don't know that I'd utilize the service. It's what works for me, and it's worked pretty well for me to this point. I don't have grand illusions of joining the PGA Tour because I know I don't have the time to dedicate to even trying to. I support my family and enjoy spending time with them, so I choose that over keeping a lower HI.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Everyone has learned golf from someone else. I can't stand it when people say they've never had a lesson. EVERYONE, Bubba Watson included, has had a lesson. Just because it isn't a formal paid lesson from a Golf Professional, we've all learned something from someone or somewhere at some point in time. Whether be a parent, friend, etc. it does not matter because someone taught you how to do it. There are three kids who come to my facility 5 days a week with their grandfather. They spend two to three hours here each day and have routine practice schedules. Now, they aren't taking lessons from a golf pro, however, they are being taught at a much greater level that any of the students I teach due to how frequent they are practicing, Would they be better if they took lessons with me? Absolutely. However, they practice more than any kids their same ages do anything so they are better players. I only get a kid for an hour so I can't control what he or she does the other 23 hours of that day or week.

 

RB - you are quite the interesting individual. Quite possibly one of the most narcissistic I've ever had conversations with. I love how your examples are hall of fame golfers. What a joke in that you use hall of farmers to back up why you don't take lessons. If you don't see how egotistical you are then I promise I will never reply to one of your posts ever again.

 

Those of you interested in what qualifications are need to become a PGA Professional take a look at www.pgalinks.com and check out the process. Pretty intense, has a 90% failure rate (of those who begin the program), and costs a decent chunk of money.

 

There are many different classifications in the PGA and unfortunately due to the law of averages there are going to be a few that aren't worth a s***,but such is life. There are some golf professionals who mainly deal with the business side of golf. There are some that only teach for a living and then there are some who do both. Now if your golf professional does both, he probably won't be as good as a teacher who only instructs all day. I'm not saying that they won't be good or help you, but those who do nothing but teach all day may be better/faster at fixing problems.

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Everyone has learned golf from someone else. I can't stand it when people say they've never had a lesson. EVERYONE, Bubba Watson included, has had a lesson. Just because it isn't a formal paid lesson from a Golf Professional, we've all learned something from someone or somewhere at some point in time. Whether be a parent, friend, etc. it does not matter because someone taught you how to do it. There are three kids who come to my facility 5 days a week with their grandfather. They spend two to three hours here each day and have routine practice schedules. Now, they aren't taking lessons from a golf pro, however, they are being taught at a much greater level that any of the students I teach due to how frequent they are practicing, Would they be better if they took lessons with me? Absolutely. However, they practice more than any kids their same ages do anything so they are better players. I only get a kid for an hour so I can't control what he or she does the other 23 hours of that day or week.

 

RB - you are quite the interesting individual. Quite possibly one of the most narcissistic I've ever had conversations with. I love how your examples are hall of fame golfers. What a joke in that you use hall of farmers to back up why you don't take lessons. If you don't see how egotistical you are then I promise I will never reply to one of your posts ever again.

 

Those of you interested in what qualifications are need to become a PGA Professional take a look at www.pgalinks.com and check out the process. Pretty intense, has a 90% failure rate (of those who begin the program), and costs a decent chunk of money.

 

There are many different classifications in the PGA and unfortunately due to the law of averages there are going to be a few that aren't worth a s***,but such is life. There are some golf professionals who mainly deal with the business side of golf. There are some that only teach for a living and then there are some who do both. Now if your golf professional does both, he probably won't be as good as a teacher who only instructs all day. I'm not saying that they won't be good or help you, but those who do nothing but teach all day may be better/faster at fixing problems.

 

You're a teacher, of course you're going to defend your profession. It's your job and you do help people. I understand that. But just because it is your job doesn't mean that everyone needs your job to be performed at their expense in order to be successful.

 

And I didn't use the examples to say that's why I don't choose to take lessons nor that I subscribe to the theory that everyone needs lessons. I used the examples to prove a point, that lessons aren't needed to play the game well.

 

Bubba has said, repeatedly, that he's never had a lesson. I believe him because I have no reason not to. I'm not one to call a person a liar unless I can prove they're lying, and even then, it's a moot point. You can call him a liar all you want, that's your choice. But I won't because I have no reason not to believe him. Have no reason to not believe any of the others that have said they have never taken a lesson either.

 

But to ridicule someone for a personal choice they make for their game is immature and makes it seem as if you are trying to be elitist. I told you why I don't take lessons. Because I choose not to because I am of the opinion that I can teach myself as well as an instructor can. I have seen it as well in results from hard work and hitting golf balls until my hands bleed. I do not have the time to dedicate to practicing now because I have a family that I also choose to spend more time with than with my golf clubs. Does that mean that I'm wrong and you're right? Evidently, in your mind it does. That's your opinion. Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one. It's my opinion that if someone feels like they need lessons, more power to them. If they have the time to dedicate to both the lessons and then imparting their lessons in a practice regimen in which they can retain everything from the lessons, it should work for them provided they go to a quality instructor that teaches the student and not a single method.

 

But, to tell someone their personal choice for their game is wrong and that they'll never be as good as they could be because they don't agree with your method reeks of elitism. That's your choice, and your right to defend your profession. I never ridiculed your profession, never spoke ill of it. I answered a question that was posed. That's the beauty of MGS, we're allowed to have an opinion. Sorry for not being a sheep.

 

Everyone, you should all take lessons because you'll never fulfill your potential nor reach your own personal goals because apprenti said so.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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I'll stick my two cents in here on a couple points that I think are important.

 

1) A LARGE part of why some teachers aren't any good is because they didn't know a lot to start with and they have no interest in continuing to learn. No offense to any PGA Professionals (I mean that sincerely as I have MANY PGA Professional friends), but you don't have to learn much about the golf swing to be a PGA Professional. The program as a whole is rigorous, no doubt, but it's not a teaching program.

 

The second part of that is more important: they don't want to keep getting better. This is true of many professions: people are satisfied with what they know, they have a job, so why learn anything new? These people will be teaching the same thing in 10 years that they're teaching today and it's the same thing they were teaching 10 years ago. This is unacceptable to me. I recently discovered that a highly regarded teacher I know does not know the first thing about ball flight laws. I was so disgusted I could barely keep from calling and telling him what I thought of him. It's a perfect example of being satisfied: he has a job, a full lesson book, and he gets awards...why should he care that he's teaching people things that are out and out WRONG?

 

2) I think the "self-taught" vs. "lessons" debate hinges in large part on the fact that there are too many bad teachers and too many method teachers. There can be no question that everyone would get better faster with a good teacher. Can you get better without one? Sure, it's just going to take longer. Are you better off being self taught if the alternative is taking lessons with a bad teacher? Obviously.

 

3) A general point that I tell EVERYONE I encounter about taking lessons: If your instructor does not ask you (and push for real answers to) at least half a dozen questions the first time that you come in for a lesson, you should politely excuse yourself and find someone else. And one of those questions better be, "What does your ball do now and what do you want it to do?" YOU are the player, YOU get to make the choices.

 

Very funny story (to me at least) along those lines. I was standing on the tee of a charity event giving tips and promoting lessons. A guy says, "Oh, do you know ___? I used to take lessons with him." We talked about ____ for a bit and then he says, "Alright, I'll see if I can hit the draw like ____ wanted me to." I looked confused and said, "Did you want to hit a draw?" His response: "Not particularly." I laughed about that all day.

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I'll stick my two cents in here on a couple points that I think are important.

 

1) A LARGE part of why some teachers aren't any good is because they didn't know a lot to start with and they have no interest in continuing to learn. No offense to any PGA Professionals (I mean that sincerely as I have MANY PGA Professional friends), but you don't have to learn much about the golf swing to be a PGA Professional. The program as a whole is rigorous, no doubt, but it's not a teaching program.

 

The second part of that is more important: they don't want to keep getting better. This is true of many professions: people are satisfied with what they know, they have a job, so why learn anything new? These people will be teaching the same thing in 10 years that they're teaching today and it's the same thing they were teaching 10 years ago. This is unacceptable to me. I recently discovered that a highly regarded teacher I know does not know the first thing about ball flight laws. I was so disgusted I could barely keep from calling and telling him what I thought of him. It's a perfect example of being satisfied: he has a job, a full lesson book, and he gets awards...why should he care that he's teaching people things that are out and out WRONG?

 

2) I think the "self-taught" vs. "lessons" debate hinges in large part on the fact that there are too many bad teachers and too many method teachers. There can be no question that everyone would get better faster with a good teacher. Can you get better without one? Sure, it's just going to take longer. Are you better off being self taught if the alternative is taking lessons with a bad teacher? Obviously.

 

3) A general point that I tell EVERYONE I encounter about taking lessons: If your instructor does not ask you (and push for real answers to) at least half a dozen questions the first time that you come in for a lesson, you should politely excuse yourself and find someone else. And one of those questions better be, "What does your ball do now and what do you want it to do?" YOU are the player, YOU get to make the choices.

 

Very funny story (to me at least) along those lines. I was standing on the tee of a charity event giving tips and promoting lessons. A guy says, "Oh, do you know ___? I used to take lessons with him." We talked about ____ for a bit and then he says, "Alright, I'll see if I can hit the draw like ____ wanted me to." I looked confused and said, "Did you want to hit a draw?" His response: "Not particularly." I laughed about that all day.

 

There's a local teacher here that I don't really understand at times when talking with his students (they're all good golfers though, for the most part and play well doing what he wants them to do). He teaches both PGA Tour pros and average joes. His PGA guys all hit a draw and do it well. His students here(not on tour) all hit a fade. I'm not certain why he's teaching half a fade and pros a draw. My cousin, whom is an accomplished golfer and going to college soon on scholarship, is one of his students. He can hit a draw and prefers one lots of times, but the teacher is teaching him a fade based swing. Perhaps it's teaching them to hit a shot and trust it, not sure of the methodology there, but again, he plays well. I just don't understand why one group is hitting a fade and the other, more accomplished a draw.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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THANK YOU All for all of your feed back. It is very much appreciated. Please allow me to drone on a bit here.

I picked up my clubs tonight. 13 clubs shafted and tuned to my swing. More on this later.

My question was, What would you pay for your clubs to be tuned to your swing by a pro golfer who also is a master at fitting clubs with up to 13 new shafts in your club heads?

It looks like the average $ paid is $80 per hour.

I have been to 5 different "pros" in 10 years is search of the Holy Grail of a lesson and not one of them ever thought to ask if I had been fitted for my clubs. They all said the same BS nice clubs, nice swing blah blah blah.

I have also spent thousands on all of this, and it only got me more confused and frustrated.

Until I went to Ultimate Golf here in Columbus, Ohio.

I spent $699 on 5 lessons and the fitting and the new shafts. A new driver off the shelf costs $299-$399

Maybe some will say I got robbed but, David Leadbetter charges $5000 for a week and they dont even touch your clubs.

BTW I dont work there nor does anyone I know.

How do they feel? Like a soft kiss from the golf Gods.

Am I better? I truly believe I will now get much better, But I do expect my scores to go up while I have to unlearn 10 years of bad habits

and then drop like the value of my house ( thats a whole different forum ).

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Sorry for hi-jacking this thread to bits guys, but I've been on the forums for many years now and it seems as though the PGA and Club Pro's in general get slammed quite often- felt like a great time to make some comments. There are going to be bad ones. Unfortunately you have to do research and feel out a couple before you find the one who works best for you.

 

RB- I'm a Golf Professional. You called me an elitist. Now, if we're talking golf and I am a Golf Professional, how would I not be considered an elitist? Wow that sounds terribly egotistical. Normally, I'm quite modest; but if I'm a Golf Professional, I better know my s***, right? If I'm going to give you lessons, and you're paying me, should I not know more and be better at golf than you? Making me an elitist? If I understand the definition of an elitist being someone who has greater talents and knowledge than others, than you're damn right, I'm an elitist and I would consider the PGA to be an elitist society. Do I know everything? Absolutely not. And I will gladly admit that I'm not perfect and make mistakes all the time. I liken having a PGA Membership to having a Doctorate in whatever degree you may chose. Doctorate would be an elitist status would it not?

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Sorry for hi-jacking this thread to bits guys, but I've been on the forums for many years now and it seems as though the PGA and Club Pro's in general get slammed quite often- felt like a great time to make some comments. There are going to be bad ones. Unfortunately you have to do research and feel out a couple before you find the one who works best for you.

 

RB- I'm a Golf Professional. You called me an elitist. Now, if we're talking golf and I am a Golf Professional, how would I not be considered an elitist? Wow that sounds terribly egotistical. Normally, I'm quite modest; but if I'm a Golf Professional, I better know my s***, right? If I'm going to give you lessons, and you're paying me, should I not know more and be better at golf than you? Making me an elitist? If I understand the definition of an elitist being someone who has greater talents and knowledge than others, than you're damn right, I'm an elitist and I would consider the PGA to be an elitist society. Do I know everything? Absolutely not. And I will gladly admit that I'm not perfect and make mistakes all the time. I liken having a PGA Membership to having a Doctorate in whatever degree you may chose. Doctorate would be an elitist status would it not?

No, the definition of elitist is one that THINKS they know more or are better than others. You don't know me, and I don't know you. I'm not one to judge others, nor their choices in life. You obviously are, and think you're the best teacher in the world. Guess what, with an attitude like yours, nevermind, you'll not understand what I'm going to say anyway. I wish you success in your job, because I don't stoop to the level that you do and try and act like I know everything, nor do I ridicule others choices in their own life. I'm sure you're a real gem to live and work around.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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There is a difference between being in the elite and being an elitist (or elitist jerk if you wish).

 

You are in the elite when you are the best of the best out there, let it be a PGA pro or a scientist or a phD. You can still be humble about it.

 

An elitist is someone who is at the top, but also looks down on others. I'm a PGA pro and you are a hacker. I'm a brilliant scientist and you are a dumbass. I have a phD and you didn't even finish elementary school.

 

*****

 

Back on topic, I believe in both theories. I'm not as talented as RB7, but I also played my way down to a mid HCP within 2 years without a single lesson (yeah, I know mid HCP is peanuts). I want to become a scratch golfer, so when I realized I couldn't improve anymore, because I wasn't seeing my mistakes, I started taking lessons.

 

First trainer was trash, couldn't even hit the ball after his lesson.

Second trainer (current one), didn't force a swing overhaul on me, but gave little pieces of advice that changed my game completely. Similar to Richard's thumb placement. We still have a few months to go before the season is over... I look forward to the single digit zone!

 

Bottom line: there is more than one way to skin a cat, stick with what works for you and don't criticize others for doing it differently.

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As penance for their public bickering, I think that apprenti should have to give RookieBlue a free lesson, and RookieBlue should have to take said lesson with an open mind. :lol:

 

I've had lessons with 3 different pros, I don't think any of them are exceptionally great teachers, but all of them bring something to the table. Really a lesson is not about the teacher, its about the student. I kind of want to learn whatever it is the instructor teaches best. That being said, I'm also not shy about telling an instructor if I'm resistant to doing something the way he's teaching it, usually that initiates a discussion about why I'm doing what I'm doing vs. where he wants me to be and why and something is figured out or we move on.

 

What I like about lessons is the fact that paying someone makes me pay attention to what I'm doing, it makes me dedicate myself to practicing a bit more and just gets me focused. Its also great to get another set of eyes and especially to take advantage of the cameras and the software. What I feel is rarely what I'm actually doing, but once I see it I'm able to quickly make adjustments and hold the new feeling for a while. I've been playing and taking lessons for a while now, I really kind of know what I'm trying to do, but I rarely know what I'm doing wrong as I'm doing it. Its pretty doubtful that someone is going to come along and magically fix my many errors. But someone might say something in a way that hadn't occurred to me before that might make a difference, that's what I kind of hope for in a lesson. Just another set of knowledgeable eyes and some ideas to try.

 

I think a large part of some of the apprehensiveness about lessons is a player having too high of expectations. There comes a point where I think it is really tough to improve someone's game, I believe that point starts somewhere in the mid-high single digits. By then one's swing is usually adequate, everything really is average or better so the problem is figuring out what fix to make that is going to make a noticeable difference on the course.

Ping I20 8.5* - Aldila NV 65g S
Adams XTD Super Hybrid 15* - Stock Fubuki S
Adams DHY 21* - Stock Matrix Ozik White Tie S
Mizuno MP58 4-8 Irons - Fujikura MCI 100 S
SCOR 42,46,50,54,58* - SCOR/KBS Genius S
STX Robert Ingman Envision TR 35", Iomic grip

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By the way Wade, glad to hear that your fitting and lessons experience is going well. I have never been fit for a full matched set, just for some individual clubs. My next set will be fitted to me.

 

Sorry about the threadjacking going on, although if you hang out a while you'll see that its not that unusual for this place to go off on a tangent! Take it as a compliment, your thread got everyone talking at least!

Ping I20 8.5* - Aldila NV 65g S
Adams XTD Super Hybrid 15* - Stock Fubuki S
Adams DHY 21* - Stock Matrix Ozik White Tie S
Mizuno MP58 4-8 Irons - Fujikura MCI 100 S
SCOR 42,46,50,54,58* - SCOR/KBS Genius S
STX Robert Ingman Envision TR 35", Iomic grip

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No, the definition of elitist is one that THINKS they know more or are better than others. You don't know me, and I don't know you. I'm not one to judge others, nor their choices in life. You obviously are, and think you're the best teacher in the world. Guess what, with an attitude like yours, nevermind, you'll not understand what I'm going to say anyway. I wish you success in your job, because I don't stoop to the level that you do and try and act like I know everything, nor do I ridicule others choices in their own life. I'm sure you're a real gem to live and work around.

 

Ive had enough of this, you win RB. Final thought though- I am not an elitist, never considered that until yesterday, not even the best instructor at my club. Next time I'm down in Georgia I'll invite you to my two favorites down there GCofGA and CCof The South - you just pay for the beers. After 36 holes I can pretty much guarantee we'll both be eating crow in the clubhouse.

 

In Summary

Take lessons from people just for the simple fact that they can see things you can't. You don't know where your shoulders are pointing, what the club face looks like at key points of the swing, etc. Sometimes you might run into a bad pro, but go find another. I've had poor school teachers, dentists, doctors, etc. if your paying someone to help you it may force you to practice more so that your perceived value is where you like it to be.

 

Once again I apologize for spamming this thread, I'll get off my elitist soapbox now.

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Ive had enough of this, you win RB. Final thought though- I am not an elitist, never considered that until yesterday, not even the best instructor at my club. Next time I'm down in Georgia I'll invite you to my two favorites down there GCofGA and CCof The South - you just pay for the beers. After 36 holes I can pretty much guarantee we'll both be eating crow in the clubhouse.

 

In Summary

Take lessons from people just for the simple fact that they can see things you can't. You don't know where your shoulders are pointing, what the club face looks like at key points of the swing, etc. Sometimes you might run into a bad pro, but go find another. I've had poor school teachers, dentists, doctors, etc. if your paying someone to help you it may force you to practice more so that your perceived value is where you like it to be.

 

Once again I apologize for spamming this thread, I'll get off my elitist soapbox now.

 

Ah hell, I should have picked a fight too if I knew it would get me onto GCofGA for the price of beer! CC of the South I've played, and it's fantastic. While you are here, you should try Alpharetta Athletic Club's East Course (formerly Crooked Creek). It's one of those courses that caters to the players that don't play driver off every 300yd + tee box :-).

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