Putting Physics

[JMiller]

I start to do a little research on the idea that some putters make the ball "roll" faster then other putters. Plus the entire idea of "hook spin" and "slice spin" in putting. It sort of sparked my interest more when I read I post over at puttertalk.com

--> http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=35228.0 (the link should work even if you get a DB error first try just reload the URL)

 

The conversation turned from hook / slice spin into skidding then rolling... I happened to want to get more information on the topic and came across this article...

http://home.comcast.net/~saintjohnboscooffice/images/martikean/articles/38.pdf

 

 

Interesting topic figured I would toss it into the Academy more the Putter Talk as it's educational more then gossip.

[Richie3Jack]

A good source of information on this would be thru Edel Golf. I have a 34" putter, but I went to get fitted again for a belly putter (I putt well with the 34", but want to try a belly putter). Edel does more than just fit for aim.

 

They fit for directional aim and the amount of loft you have at address. Then they fit the shaft flex along with the weight towards the head and the weight towards the hands. They briefly explained to me that they are looking to see of the golfer uses a 'radial' or 'linear' putting method. It doesn't have to do with the stroke arcing or SBST, but instead has to do with if the golfer alters their stroke or how hard they hit it. I cannot remember which was which and don't know all of the details.

 

I've done a fitting with a clubfitter for skid-roll a few years ago. I thought it helped. The clubfitter did mention that from his research, the grooves on a putter did help reduce the amount of skid. I wound up getting a Yes! Victoria II. But I think the weight of the putter was off and I mis-aimed the putter at address and couldn't make the compensations to get the putterface pointing at the target at impact. I've just found that Edel's method of fitting gets the ball to roll a lot better.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[JMiller]

I found it very interesting the concept of "all putters skid", the putters that clam to "roll faster" just have lower amounts of loft to get the ball skidding faster. I have always known that the ball bounces and skids off the putter just from putting in the morning on dew greens and looking at the trail the ball leave behind.

 

I also know that on bumpy greens I have liked using a putter that has more loft on it then 4* say something like 6*, it helps me control distance by keeping the ball in the air a little longer and not running into as many bumps on the path of the putt.

 

I have three putters currently

Scotty Cameron Newport 2 (Carbon, 340g roughly, 2* of loft I think)

SeeMore DB4 (Carbon, 350g, 4* of loft)

YES! Callie-f (304 stainless, 355g, 4* of loft)

 

I have a slight forward press in my stroke so you can knock off about 1* to 3* of loft on the putter at impact. I don't think the following are just it happens for no explainable reason.

 

SC NP2 ~ Comes off the face the most "dead" feeling and will roll the shortest of the three

SeeMore DB4 ~ Right in the middle and perfect feel for me love it

YES! Callie-f ~ Goes the longest and comes off the face hot, A little too hot for me unless greens are stupid slow or bumpy, I want to adjust the loft to 6* to target it at punched greens and slow greens next time I get the specs checked.

 

However, I have to assume that the Scotty with the weight and less loft skids more immediately and would need to have a larger / faster swing a little more to make up for it. The SeeMore sort of does what I want it to in a mixture of feel and skid. The YES was just a little too much for me, I don't like it probably mostly the 304 stainless feel and the ball springing off the face like a driver almost.

 

I am just sort of tossing around ideas about the subject, not really saying one way or another on my stance just observations and thoughts.

[Richie3Jack]

I remember that Yes! was claiming that their putters didn't have skid, but their measurement of 'skid' and 'roll' was different from the industry norm. I think a lot of it has to do with where the weight it located with accordance to the golfer's putting stroke. Typically the Scotty Cameron putters have more like 4-5* of loft. So unless you had the loft bent, I would question it having 2* of loft.

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[JMiller]

I remember that Yes! was claiming that their putters didn't have skid, but their measurement of 'skid' and 'roll' was different from the industry norm. I think a lot of it has to do with where the weight it located with accordance to the golfer's putting stroke. Typically the Scotty Cameron putters have more like 4-5* of loft. So unless you had the loft bent, I would question it having 2* of loft.

 

 

 

 

3JACK

 

It is a Newport 2 back from the oil can finish days, old as heck, I bought it used in 2007, had it measured 2010 and it was 2* of loft. I personally didn't have it bent to that, just left it alone because it was what I had gotten used to for 3 years.

[ZenGolfer]

Im not a believer that hook/slice spin in putting makes that much of a difference because the ball is only in the air for 1/4 of an inch or less.

IMO, theres many, many other mistakes in putting that have a bigger impact than sidespin.

Im sure some overpriced putter companies who want to convince people to spend $300 or more on a putter due to some sort of, "fitting" process who would try to convince you otherwise though and would tell you that putting sidespin is costing you strokes.

[JMiller]

Well the sort of the point in posting this stuff was mostly to get people thinking about what the ball is actually doing on the green when they strike a putt and not buy into the more bulls*** that OEMs throw around about "roll" / "spin".

 

I sort of cracked up about the comment in the other forum "why would you ever want to make a putting stroke like you are playing ping pong?". Bruce (bargolf) wrote in the ball doesn't make a full rotation in the air unless you smack a putter 100 yards. It's true it doesn't, there is not a literal way to make a ball literally hook or slice on a putt that is normal.

 

 

The skidding thing was the more interesting thing about the conversation, and sort of what I was aiming at talking about the most.

 

I liked the bowling ball analogy of the PDF, watch the PBA events for 3/4 of the lane the ball sits there rotating in a direction but skids straight down the lane, eventually the ball slows down enough for the spin to take over and change the balls direction starting the actual rolling of the ball.

 

This is one of the more recent responses in the topic over there that sums it up very well in terms of skidding.

According to Vector Putting: The Art and Science of Reading Greens and Computing Break by H.A. Templeton, it varies based on how hard you hit the putt and how fast the greens are. The ball will skid/roll until the rotational velocity matches the horizontal velocity. The velocity at which it starts rolling is 71% of the initial velocity.

 

Does that even sound like it is physically possible to have 0 amount of skidding in a putt?

[RoverRick]

Well, I have spent the last couple of days messing with different putters, and the Ping iPing app. And bought a Scotty Cameron Studio Style Newport 1.5 in 35 in today. This was the putter that I just could not miss with. It is an older one but felt incredibly soft. I roll the ball smoothly anyway. People have always remarked about how well the ball rolled when I putted. At least when they were not laughing because it was so far from the hole. I ordered it on eBay after trying several different ones out over the last 3 days that belonged to other people.

 

JM, During my research I never found any Newport variation that did not come from Scotty at 4*, so yours was bent and some point. With the plumber neck on the Newport 2 it may have been bent by hitting the ground.

 

As far as skidding, they had some slow mo pics of putts in a golf magazine years ago that showed that they all do. Scotty says that is why all putters are 4*.

 

I do find that on bumpier greens it is better to give the putter a little pop with more wrist action than it is to do the no wrist big muscle putt. To me putting and sand bunkers are different here in the real world than the guys on tour or the big name teachers are used to.

 

If you watch Arnold and Jack putt and most of the old greats, you will see that they do not do the modern smooth no wrist swing. They do the wrist pop. I think this is because greens back then on tour were not the fine as astroturf greens on tour now. I also think this may be one reason for the proliferation of the long putters now vs years ago. On smoother greens it is easier to make a smooth no wrist stroke with a long putter. Back in the day, or out here in the boonies, the greens are not so slick, so the shorter putters are better to give it a pop.

 

However, our greens, not right this minute because they aerated them last week, but before that they were very smooth and slick. A smooth stroke worked best.

 

Ben Hogan said that on bumpy greens use a little more wrist. So I do.

[ZenGolfer]

IMO, today's putters skid a heck of a lot less than the putters of 5 years ago.

[JMiller]

I have never beat my putters into the ground or hit one with a full swing... for my SC NP2 I would have to imagine it was the previous owner that changed the specs on it. I bought it the shaft length was 33" and the head weighed 332g that sort of tells me that the original owner bought a 35" putter and chopped it down, most SC NP2 putters are 330g 35", 340g 34", 350g 33" with like you said a stock loft of 4* I am aware of all that. I have a 8g weight in the tip of the shaft to bring it up to 340g and 10g more of 2g weighted squares stuck to the putter at this point to get it up to 350g where I want it, I need get the loft checked and fixed on it again.

 

I was sort of getting at the point that maybe 2* will start skidding sooner and takes a little more energy to over come that fact, it might be why this putter is coming up shorter with roughly the same exact weight and specs as the SeeMore DB4 including both being Carbon Material.

 

 

I have to assume that if you have 0* dynamic loft on a putter, 2* dynamic loft, 4* dynamic loft with the same weight, same materials, same length, same stroke they are going to have different skid and bounce patterns after impact resulting in different distances.

 

 

Some players including myself use a hybrid / fairway metal to make a putting stroke type of chip to skip and bounce the ball across the top of the fairway / collar grass onto the green. Bumpy greens like aerified 1/2" holes play sort of the same way as a bumpy collar grass, I experimented with putting with my 19* hybrid a few times on my course right after punches not like I am taking divots in the green doing it so no damage. I was able to control the distance with the 19* hybrid putting then I was with my putter.

 

For me I have found that having the ball in the air longer is easier to control on the really s*** greens so a putter with 6* of loft might actually help some to keep the same stroke and get the expected results over a putter that has say 2* of loft.

[RoverRick]

I have never beat my putters into the ground or hit one with a full swing... for my SC NP2 I would have to imagine it was the previous owner that changed the specs on it. I bought it the shaft length was 33" and the head weighed 332g that sort of tells me that the original owner bought a 35" putter and chopped it down, most SC NP2 putters are 330g 35", 340g 34", 350g 33" with like you said a stock loft of 4* I am aware of all that. I have a 8g weight in the tip of the shaft to bring it up to 340g and 10g more of 2g weighted squares stuck to the putter at this point to get it up to 350g where I want it, I need get the loft checked and fixed on it again.

 

I was sort of getting at the point that maybe 2* will start skidding sooner and takes a little more energy to over come that fact, it might be why this putter is coming up shorter with roughly the same exact weight and specs as the SeeMore DB4 including both being Carbon Material.

 

 

I have to assume that if you have 0* dynamic loft on a putter, 2* dynamic loft, 4* dynamic loft with the same weight, same materials, same length, same stroke they are going to have different skid and bounce patterns after impact resulting in different distances.

 

 

Some players including myself use a hybrid / fairway metal to make a putting stroke type of chip to skip and bounce the ball across the top of the fairway / collar grass onto the green. Bumpy greens like aerified 1/2" holes play sort of the same way as a bumpy collar grass, I experimented with putting with my 19* hybrid a few times on my course right after punches not like I am taking divots in the green doing it so no damage. I was able to control the distance with the 19* hybrid putting then I was with my putter.

 

For me I have found that having the ball in the air longer is easier to control on the really s*** greens so a putter with 6* of loft might actually help some to keep the same stroke and get the expected results over a putter that has say 2* of loft.

 

I was not accusing you of damaging your club by loosing your temper just mentioning the posibility. I too am not likely to damage a putter because of a missed putt. Those do not upset me that much. Chili dips with a wedge make me mad enough that is a possiblility. I do not throw clubs in anger, but it is close sometimes.

 

Now you mention that you have have a forward press. If you are using a putter with 4* loft and it really does not make much difference if you use a 33 or 36 putter, but my moving your hands 2 1/4 inches forward you totally remove the loft off of the putter. If you have a 2* loft that just an inch will just about deloft the club.

 

I also use a forward press and according to the iPing app, I set up with a forward lean of 4.8 * but at impact I only have 2.5* of forward lean. But that makes the effective loft on my putter only 1.5*. This could be the reason that the ball off my putter appears to immediately start rolling. Of course it does not "immediately" start to roll but it does appear to roll better than most.

 

I can hardly wait until I get my new Scotty. I meant to mention that I putted with a TMag Rosea Siena 4, which is the TMag version of the Newport 1.5. It had a really hot face. Now I do like a really hot face on a driver but I do not care for them on a putter. I found the delicate putts difficult with that and all of the TMag putters.

 

Many people, myself included, have made comments about Cameron's being an expensive version of the Ping, but that was before I played with one. Actually, I have played with two different ones. Neither of them were set up to fit my swing, I found out much later, and I did not make as many putts as I should have but the misses sure felt good. This one is supposed to fit my swing better so it is very exciting.

[JMiller]

Well there is a big difference in a 33" putter and a 36" putter for me, using a putter that is not the proper length for a person changes their posture and visual perception of the line of play. It can effect the arc of the putt and all sorts of things just from changing the length of the putter.

 

Just to toss out some numbers for stock loft on some putters out there, that claim to have better and true roll.

Nike Method ~ 2* loft

Rife Aruba ~ 2* loft

Yes! Callie-12 ~ 3* loft

 

Then you have the companies in the same style that have not bought into that BS

SC NP2 ~ 4* loft

SeeMore DB4 ~ 4* loft

Ping Answer 2 ~ 4* loft (I think)

 

The point I am really just getting at is that loft effects when and how the putter skids. Less loft at impact = faster skidding / more friction = slightly less distance. To make up for it they have made the heads a bit heavier to get more MOI out of the head, plus 303 / 304 Stainless comes off the face hotter then Carbon Steel in my opinion.

 

Given that I have something that is around 2*, something around 4*, and something that is probably 3* I can tell you that the 4* putts the best over all for my stroke. If the putter gets negative amount of loft it can drive the ball into the ground making it bounce and make it hard to have good distance control. 2* is plenty of loft for anyone without a forward press. If you have a forward press you looking more into a 4* to 6* putter to fit better.

 

Scotty Cameron just has a license to print money, I have heard a lot of rumors about SC Putters. I'll stick to other companies that I can still get Carbon putter heads from and not 303 / 304 without paying an arm and a leg for it. I like the feel and sound of carbon putter heads better for blades, I don't use insert putters either so the material matters to me.

[RoverRick]

Well there is a big difference in a 33" putter and a 36" putter for me, using a putter that is not the proper length for a person changes their posture and visual perception of the line of play. It can effect the arc of the putt and all sorts of things just from changing the length of the putter.

 

 

 

I was speaking only in terms of how far to forward press to completely deloft the club. Simple trigonometry says that the sin 4* x the length of the putter = amount forward to move the hands. Not feel or anything else. Simply from a math stand point it is 2.3 inches for 33 inch putter, and 2.5 inches for a 36 inch putter. It is pretty hard to tell the difference in those in terms of how far forward you hands are, 2.3" or 2.5".

 

I will say that in the full swing I have worked on getting my hands forward for this vary reason.

[JMiller]

I was speaking only in terms of how far to forward press to completely deloft the club. Simple trigonometry says that the sin 4* x the length of the putter = amount forward to move the hands. Not feel or anything else. Simply from a math stand point it is 2.3 inches for 33 inch putter, and 2.5 inches for a 36 inch putter. It is pretty hard to tell the difference in those in terms of how far forward you hands are, 2.3" or 2.5".

 

I will say that in the full swing I have worked on getting my hands forward for this vary reason.

 

Copy that. I'm not sure exactly how much press I have to be honest I just know I have some from watching videos of my putting stroke from face on.

[JMiller]

I just got done reading something that sort of sparked my interest... not really having to do with skidding of the ball and roll more about distance control...

 

Bruce Rearick Posts anything good blog to read...

http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/

[GolfSpy WD]

I just got done reading something that sort of sparked my interest... not really having to do with skidding of the ball and roll more about distance control...

 

Bruce Rearick Posts anything good blog to read...

http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/

 

Very interesting, I definitely don't have consistent putting swing time between long and short putts. I'll have to try that.

[RoverRick]

Our greens have still not recovered from being punched. It has been two weeks and they were better last week than this week. I have had no luck dying the ball at the hole. When I try that the ball wanders around like it is drunk. So I have been playing it straighter at the hole and giving it a pop.

 

Before they ruined the greens I used the iPing app and found that I was very consistent in my putting time (1.8 sec) on all putts up to about 25 feet. Longer than that it grew to 2.1 sec.

 

This was good point but it failed to take in to account green smoothness. Hogan said that on rougher greens it was better to have a shorter more aggressive stoke and a long smooth stroke on the smooth greens.

 

This in my opinion is one of the reasons we see more pros going to the long putter when years ago they did not. Long putters create (not the right word but I can not think of a better one this early) a longer smoother stroke. Greens (that they play on) are much smoother now than in Hogan's, Palmer's, and even Nicklaus's day.

[JMiller]

Our greens have still not recovered from being punched. It has been two weeks and they were better last week than this week. I have had no luck dying the ball at the hole. When I try that the ball wanders around like it is drunk. So I have been playing it straighter at the hole and giving it a pop.

 

Before they ruined the greens I used the iPing app and found that I was very consistent in my putting time (1.8 sec) on all putts up to about 25 feet. Longer than that it grew to 2.1 sec.

 

This was good point but it failed to take in to account green smoothness. Hogan said that on rougher greens it was better to have a shorter more aggressive stoke and a long smooth stroke on the smooth greens.

 

This in my opinion is one of the reasons we see more pros going to the long putter when years ago they did not. Long putters create (not the right word but I can not think of a better one this early) a longer smoother stroke. Greens (that they play on) are much smoother now than in Hogan's, Palmer's, and even Nicklaus's day.

 

Having talked to Bruce directly about that very situation (punched greens) I know he wasn't writing this article with that in mind, a good smooth surface was in mind. Let me give a paraphrase of what the conversation was.

 

JM: "How do you putt consistently on bumpy greens? My course has been punching their greens every 2.5 weeks and I rarely get a chance to play on a smooth putting surface. I don't seem to be showing improvement in my putting stats and I am starting to wonder if it is mostly to do with punched terribly bumpy putting surfaces. It seems that one putt that I make might come up short after hitting a bump if I adjust to that then I start hitting some way long because they don't hit bumps as badly."

 

BR: "You really can't be consistent when playing on punch greens. I just use a putter that has more loft on it so that the ball travels in the air longer hitting fewer imperfections and holding the line a little better and giving me better distance predictability."

 

 

To me I know that punched greens are not something that you can develop anything on or asses your style of putting. Punched greens is like playing craps, you better bet on the pass line because missing the hole from even a 3 foot putt is possible. My only objective on punched greens anymore is be happy when I stop the ball within 6" of the hole for an actual easy tap in. I don't really even expect to make a ton of 3 foot putts because how bad the greens get bumping a lot of times regardless of how hard I putt the ball. You putt the ball hard to make a 5 footer it hits a bump and misses you have another 3 to 5 footer that's not a gimme coming back. I just tell myself "lots of 2 putts today, no three putts and few one putts" on punched / bumpy greens. REally the hard part is not 3 putting these greens a lot.

[RoverRick]

The greens may be recently punched but several times through out the year or going from course to course I find greens that are bumpier or than other times. Sometimes it is the grain, sometimes just because of the weather, but what ever the reason, some greens are not smooth for whatever reason, son in this case I find a shorter more aggressive stroke works better, but for smooth rolling fast greens the longer smoother stroke works best.

[JMiller]

The greens may be recently punched but several times through out the year or going from course to course I find greens that are bumpier or than other times. Sometimes it is the grain, sometimes just because of the weather, but what ever the reason, some greens are not smooth for whatever reason, son in this case I find a shorter more aggressive stroke works better, but for smooth rolling fast greens the longer smoother stroke works best.

 

Maybe that works for yourself but not everyone... That is the point nothing in golf works for everyone... This was just something to TRY...

[RoverRick]

It is amazing how the greens have changed since Friday. Tomorrow it will be two weeks since they were punched. Friday they were the worst they have been. Saturday, they were very slow and rough still and they sprayed them with fertilizer. But today they were much so much smoother and greener and you could barely see the holes. They were slower than normal but it is hard to believe that they are the same grees as they were two days ago.

[RoverRick]

Does your club have 3 nines or 18 + another nine, or did they close a nine down for repair?.....

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever.....

My club Is 18 holes. But 9 holes are closed but there will be 10 new holes. The new holes are 1-5 9 & 15-18.

[bargolf]

I start to do a little research on the idea that some putters make the ball "roll" faster then other putters. Plus the entire idea of "hook spin" and "slice spin" in putting. It sort of sparked my interest more when I read I post over at puttertalk.com

--> http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=35228.0 (the link should work even if you get a DB error first try just reload the URL)

 

The conversation turned from hook / slice spin into skidding then rolling... I happened to want to get more information on the topic and came across this article...

http://home.comcast.net/~saintjohnboscooffice/images/martikean/articles/38.pdf

 

 

Interesting topic figured I would toss it into the Academy more the Putter Talk as it's educational more then gossip.

 

follow up to this article http://bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com

[bargolf]

Copy that. I'm not sure exactly how much press I have to be honest I just know I have some from watching videos of my putting stroke from face on.

 

sorry follow up to this article.

 

http://bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com

[JMiller]

Bruce, both the links you posted went to the main part of your blog...

Were you after the following url for the post you wanted to target as a follow up?

 

http://bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/08/better-timing-for-better-putting-part-2.html

 

I was sort of looking at more skidding and the speed that a ball starts to roll more then "hook / slice spin" I already knew that it was not possible to literally hook or slice a putt.