Stats or no Stats for improvement; what's your thought?

[cnosil]

Obviously we see lots of golf stats and with systems like Arrcos, Shotscope, and others that give us data about our game it is very popular.   Most say know your stats so you can understand weak areas so you know where to focus your practice.   Saw an article referenced on social media that says focusing on weak areas may also cause your stronger skills to get weaker.   

https://golfcoachinstitute.com/golf-improvement-fudging-numbers-and-the-heptathlon/

What's your thought?

 

[Josh Parker]

13 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Obviously we see lots of golf stats and with systems like Arrcos, Shotscope, and others that give us data about our game it is very popular.   Most say know your stats so you can understand weak areas so you know where to focus your practice.   Saw an article referenced on social media that says focusing on weak areas may also cause your stronger skills to get weaker.   

https://golfcoachinstitute.com/golf-improvement-fudging-numbers-and-the-heptathlon/

What's your thought?

 

I agree with the article.  When my driver was struggling, it meant adding a training for the driver, not replacing a practice.  I still continued to practice my irons, wedges and putting the same amount.  

Knowing your stats is very important and while I'm not a Arrcos or Shotscope guy, having the LM and seeing how the numbers affect the ball or flight and knowing how to read that data and what "optimal" should be has helped my game a ton.  However, if you don't know how to fix those, it doesn't matter how much data you collect...

[Rob Person]

IMO, the way you could hurt your stronger areas is if you make changes in swing dynamics that allow you to cross over into them from your weaker areas.  I've made swing changes, ball position, stance, etc with my driver to improve my performance there. If I moved those changes to my mid irons, it would compromise the performance with them. The only real change you could potentially keep equilibrium with or improve is with across all areas is with hand position changes.

[Tom the Golf Nut]

The article was very interesting. It struck home because my daughter is on the college track team and does the heptathlon.  She broke the school record in her Sophmore year and her own record in her Junior year.

What they did was identify her weakest event and worked to improve that event but focused on her stronger events. The goal was to get the weakest event to an average level and let her strong events accumulate the points. The additional training on the weaker event didn’t cause her to loose ground because she still trained to improve the stronger events.

This is just so relatable to golf and I never made the connection before reading the article. Keep your strong parts of your game sharp and just get the weaker part to average (or better if you can). Your entire game will get elevated.

I am not a data junkie. I have a Mevo and a Simulator bay. I collect data for testing. All I care about is knowing my club distances. Since I primarily hit everything straight, I don’t work on things much except for putting. But I play more because that’s where it counts.  Real situations with your normal ball instead of crappy balls and a wide open field. My Pro told me 15 years ago. You want to get better play more golf and skip the driving range.

I know the weak part of my game is the 150 to 170 range. But I also know if my driver is working well, those distances don’t come into play. I also know that my short game will bail me out when they do. Some par 3’s as an example. If I miss a green slightly I’m confident I will get up and down. Do I work on those distances, sort of. I know I focus more on those distances while playing if they come up.  Sometimes I’ll turn the Sim on and practice those weak distances on the Sim driving range. But the other parts of my game compensate because they are sharper.  If I solely focused on my weak distance area other parts of my game would suffer and that would not help my score card.

 

[Shankster]

Me personally, I couldn’t get off the tee to save my life a while back.  Put 95% of my practice time into the driver.  I now suck at a part of my game that I absolutely relied on when the driver was off… this guy is probably on to something.  Had I kept practicing my wedge game I’d be a heck of a lot better golfer.  
 

Irons have always been “good enough”… so maybe focus equal parts on each aspect of the game.  I recently added in putting practice, something that I am very good at as far as my stats go, but it wasn’t capturing my miss with the putter very well.  I have a tendency to leave putts outside of the friends zone short, been working on at least getting the ball to the hole on every putt. 
 

Pretty sure I’m just going to go back to a notebook with my club yardages rather than rely on a tech.  Just one more distraction during a round.

[bens197]

I like the analogy.  

It has a lot to do with managing your expectations.  Days where my short game is off, I will change the clubs I use to hit an approach and aim for a big spot that gives me a better margin to miss.

This is a discussion that would benefit those who aren’t driven by data and prefer a more theoretical approach.  Good stuff @cnosil

[Josh Parker]

1 hour ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I know the weak part of my game is the 150 to 170 range. But I also know if my driver is working well, those distances don’t come into play. I also know that my short game will bail me out when they do. Some par 3’s as an example. If I miss a green slightly I’m confident I will get up and down. Do I work on those distances, sort of. I know I focus more on those distances while playing if they come up.  Sometimes I’ll turn the Sim on and practice those weak distances on the Sim driving range. But the other parts of my game compensate because they are sharper.  If I solely focused on my weak distance area other parts of my game would suffer and that would not help my score card.

I agree 100% about playing more and skipping the range.  When I started playing golf and had gotten down to a 2, I never went to the range. I did however go to the course and find every trouble spot off the tee and drop a handful of balls and work shots out towards the green. I would hit 2 off the tee or go throw 5 in a greenside bunker. 

I wanted real hazards and to feel comfortable getting out of any situation. I still do that now.  I will go during a slow time and just pick spots or a club to work on. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

8 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

I agree 100% about playing more and skipping the range.  When I started playing golf and had gotten down to a 2, I never went to the range. I did however go to the course and find every trouble spot off the tee and drop a handful of balls and work shots out towards the green. I would hit 2 off the tee or go throw 5 in a greenside bunker. 

I wanted real hazards and to feel comfortable getting out of any situation. I still do that now.  I will go during a slow time and just pick spots or a club to work on. 

Sometimes I play worst ball. Hit two off the tee and play the worst one. Then drop the second near the worst and hit both. Continue on till I hole out. Someday it does nothing because I was consistent. Other days I get to be creative. But I think it really helps my game. 

[Josh Parker]

10 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Sometimes I play worst ball. Hit two off the tee and play the worst one. Then drop the second near the worst and hit both. Continue on till I hole out. Someday it does nothing because I was consistent. Other days I get to be creative. But I think it really helps my game. 

For sure!  I think it teaches you real scenarios and confidence when you do get in trouble. 

[Erin B]

5 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

I agree with the article.  When my driver was struggling, it meant adding a training for the driver, not replacing a practice.  I still continued to practice my irons, wedges and putting the same amount.  

Knowing your stats is very important and while I'm not a Arrcos or Shotscope guy, having the LM and seeing how the numbers affect the ball or flight and knowing how to read that data and what "optimal" should be has helped my game a ton.  However, if you don't know how to fix those, it doesn't matter how much data you collect...

Lately I’ve been killing the driver and now am not doing as well with irons so I’m on the flip side of you. I need to get my iron game going again.

[William P]

25 minutes ago, Erin B said:

Lately I’ve been killing the driver and now am not doing as well with irons so I’m on the flip side of you. I need to get my iron game going again.

Just the opposite here. Driver has become a struggle for the past few weeks, although Thursday showed some promise on the horizon, while my irons have been the savior keeping me somewhat on an even keel. 

In keeping with the theme of the article I have added a setup station to help with the driver while maintaining existing iron practice.

[Erin B]

10 minutes ago, William P said:

Just the opposite here. Driver has become a struggle for the past few weeks, although Thursday showed some promise on the horizon, while my irons have been the savior keeping me somewhat on an even keel. 

In keeping with the theme of the article I have added a setup station to help with the driver while maintaining existing iron practice.

Please expand

Edited October 7 by Erin B

[WFWP91]

I practice everything when I practice. My practice focus is usually setup, tempo, and balance. I gauge my outside practice sessions based on solid/center-face contact and ball startline because range balls have unreliable performance. I use my on course stats to identify my strengths and I play to my strengths as much as possible.

[William P]

13 minutes ago, Erin B said:

Please expand

The driver was so bad that I went all the way back to basics of set up. Grip, alignment, ball position, and distance to ball all set up with alignment sticks and tees for visual reference and reinforcement. Also use an alignment stick and range ball basket to establish barrier for over-the-top swing path.  First thing I noticed was that I was setting up right of target line and when alignment is parallel to target line it feels to me as though I am aiming approx 10 yards left. also had ball position to far forward and still working on distance form ball at address as I have not found consistency on this issue yet. 

[cnosil]

This topic is the debate that goes on in my head constantly.   I know that basic stats like fairways hit, greens in regulation, and number of putts are deceiving and don’t really tell us much about our game.   Stats like we get from arccos and ShotScope are probably relevant for better golfers that don’t have glaring problems with their games.   The one thing; I believe, all these stats help with is expectation management which does help me with the mental side of the game and not getting upset with missing a fairway or green or occasionally 3 putting.   
 

As a 7ish handicap I feel like I have glaring problems that need attention. I need to work on face contact, low point control,  short game, and getting better in the 6-10 and 30+ foot putting  range. Basically ALL parts of my game so I need to work on everything.   
 

based on the article I will probably pull the shotscope tags from my clubs once again and just focus on general improvement and working on lowering my handicap.   

[Rob Person]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

This topic is the debate that goes on in my head constantly.   I know that basic stats like fairways hit, greens in regulation, and number of putts are deceiving and don’t really tell us much about our game.   Stats like we get from arccos and ShotScope are probably relevant for better golfers that don’t have glaring problems with their games.   The one thing; I believe, all these stats help with is expectation management which does help me with the mental side of the game and not getting upset with missing a fairway or green or occasionally 3 putting.   
 

As a 7ish handicap I feel like I have glaring problems that need attention. I need to work on face contact, low point control,  short game, and getting better in the 6-10 and 30+ foot putting  range. Basically ALL parts of my game so I need to work on everything.   
 

based on the article I will probably pull the shotscope tags from my clubs once again and just focus on general improvement and working on lowering my handicap.   

I gathered from this that you feel stats from both tech and manual tracking have prevented you from focusing on core elements?

When is the right time to jump back into the tech and tracking?

 

I use the FGP on paper on almost every round.  At the end I can sit down later and decipher where I struggled the most.  This leads me to work on my weaker points.

I don't have tech to help with that stuff. But if after working down my consistency in those areas, I can see in paper that either I've improved or haven't. That is when I decide to make firmer changes in those areas. 

 

 

[RetiredBoomer]

Keeping stats like that could be beneficial to the right type of player, I would have to imagine.

For me, it would be extra work that detracted from my enjoyment of the game.
My approach to the game just isn't that intense.

[cnosil]

59 minutes ago, Rob Person said:

I gathered from this that you feel stats from both tech and manual tracking have prevented you from focusing on core elements?

When is the right time to jump back into the tech and tracking?

I use the FGP on paper on almost every round.  At the end I can sit down later and decipher where I struggled the most.  This leads me to work on my weaker points.

I don't have tech to help with that stuff. But if after working down my consistency in those areas, I can see in paper that either I've improved or haven't. That is when I decide to make firmer changes in those areas. 

 

My opinion would be that when I am scratch I would consider getting back into more detailed tracking or when an instructor requested that type of information.   FGP data is just too generic to provide much help.   When I was working with a coach we looked at tee shots that didn’t provide an opportunity to hit a green, greens hit was expanded to near greens, and putts were more about length and missed inside 3 feet.  
 

As I said in the post you quoted, I need to improve basic skills: face angle, low point, impact location with every club from driver to putter.   Improving those skills will result in more fairways and greens.   Unfortunately, more greens typically results in more putts.  
 

I think it also gets into how does knowledge of results help?   I can hit great tee shots and miss fairways because the ball runs through.  I can hit terrible shots that find the green or great shots that roll off.   I can hit great putts that don’t go in the hole or get lucky and make a couple of 30 footers.    I’d rather measure skills:

• for full swing, can I hit my stock shot consistently.    
• am on the next phase of short game where I am starting to work on distance control as well as improving contact.  
• Putting is primarily distance co tool, but also face control and read.   

So as the article indicates, I am going to focus on all skills and not target specific areas.   

[chisag]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

As a 7ish handicap I feel like I have glaring problems that need attention. I need to work on face contact, low point control,  short game, and getting better in the 6-10 and 30+ foot putting  range. Basically ALL parts of my game so I need to work on everything.   
 

based on the article I will probably pull the shotscope tags from my clubs once again and just focus on general improvement and working on lowering my handicap.

 

... Such an interesting topic cnosil.   I am not a stats guy and never have been and as always I think right brain - left brain has an influence on how we view this. I am internally driven to be the very best I can be in any sport so getting better is always the goal. The only stat that has helped me was reading an article that stated Pro's are past the pin and short of the pin an equal amount while Am's are short of the pin 90-100% of the time. So I just kept track of my approach shots and indeed more of my misses were shorter than those that were longer. The adjustment I made was anytime I was considering two clubs for a  146 yd shot with a little wind into me and 150yds is my well struck 8 iron. So that is a perfect 8 iron. But I am not anywhere near perfect and the chances of anything effecting my shot from trying to drive the ball through the wind, to slightly missing the center, to producing a little more spin than normal or several other factors can combine to have the ball only travel 138 yds or shorter. My 7 iron would be a better choice. Most likely I will be around pin high and if I absolutely flush it, I am 20 feet past the hole. What I found was using the longer club a bad miss was still short of the pin and a perfect shot was long but the majority of the time I was close to pin high taking more club. 

... That helped me get from low single digits to a + index. I think everything else was obvious and I didn't need stats to tell me that. I also think everything can change from round to round. I love your thoughts that ALL parts of your game need work and I think that is true for everyone. I do find golf ability usually has stages of improvement and understanding your stage and what is needed to improve is very beneficial. If stats help you with that, go for it. 

... Someone starting out needs to develop a repeatable swing and solid contact so lots of practice and range time is a good idea. Someone playing for 20 years either has developed a repeatable swing or they never will. And even those with a repeatable swing have to make the decision if they are happy with what they are doing playing an over the top 15-20 yd fade/slice that loses valuable yardage but is dependable and they just play it. Do they play once a week or several times a week? Do they have the desire to take some steps back to improve or are they happy to break 80 a few times and just enjoy playing golf with friends? 

... Then consider on Monday I am hitting my irons well and I am on most every green or just miss on the appropriate side along with a few loose shots where I get up and down. My swing feels great, I am making excellent contact and hitting the ball basically where I want. On Wednesday my swing feels juuuuust a little off and now I am missing most greens. My tempo is a hair rushed, I am not hitting the center of the face and I am certainly not hitting the ball basically where I want. Stats would only tell me what I already know. Some may say well those are extreme examples, what about stats helping me find out I miss 68% of greens on the left side? For me that would still be an irrelevant stat because I know when I miss left and more importantly why I missed left. I either hit a little draw, the wind was pushing it that way, I was aiming at the left side for safety or I just made a bad swing. 

... Lastly I find it invaluable when some part of my game needs improvement, I play a practice round on an empty course and hit multiple shots from different locations. If I am driving the all well but not hitting crisp wedge shots, instead of pounding wedges at the range I get to hit good drives which helps maintain the strong part of my game so I don't need to hit multiple drives. But I can drop 2-6 balls and hit wedges working on that part of my game. I can hit 55yd wedges over a bunker to a tight pin flighting the ball low with more spin a little past the hole or hit a LW high and have it drop just over the bunker. I can't do that at the range. I am actually playing golf with my practice and maintaining the strongest parts of my game while getting some extra work on the weakest part of my game. I also believe walking/riding between shots where everything changes from wind to lie to the shot is more valuable than standing in one spot and grooving one shot. I think this approach is in line with the article you posted and working on all parts of your game giving a little extra love to what needs it but still maintaining the parts of your game that don't need extra attention. 

 

[cksurfdude]

As a former math nerd.. numbers and stats are important - but - ACCURATE numbers and stats are much more important. Put a different way, better to have no numbers than bad numbers. 

As an average recreational golfer.. I did try shot tracking for a few seasons .. and did all the post-round editing to try to get as close to accurate as I could data .. but I ultimately found it to be of limited value. For Me. YMMV as they say. 

What I do think is important is to know what your misses are and what the weak spots in your game are - and practice skills specific to addressing those areas.

And, yes, without ignoring all the other parts of your game!

 

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I need to improve basic skills: face angle, low point, impact location with every club from driver to putter.  

We all need to be working on and continually developing all those key skills!!

For particular club data like those, as others mentioned, it may be more beneficial to work with an LM at the range.

Instead of shot tracking, I recently picked up a small portable unit for range practice to help better learn my carry distances .. especially with irons.

[Josh Parker]

27 minutes ago, chisag said:

The only stat that has helped me was reading an article that stated Pro's are past the pin and short of the pin an equal amount while Am's are short of the pin 90-100% of the time. So I just kept track of my approach shots and indeed more of my misses were shorter than those that were longer.

This is a super interesting stat and one I am going to start looking at my rounds.  My guess is that I tend to be short sided more often than long.  

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

This is a super interesting stat and one I am going to start looking at my rounds.  My guess is that I tend to be short sided more often than long.  

 

... It can be a real eye opener. Other than a back pin with trouble over the green, you will be surprised how many times you could hit more club. The first thing you will notice is you aren't trying to max distances, which usually leads to smoother swings and better contact. And the second thing you will notice is none of us are as good with an iron in our hands as we thought we were.   



 

[Josh Parker]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... It can be a real eye opener. Other than a back pin with trouble over the green, you will be surprised how many times you could hit more club. The first thing you will notice is you aren't trying to max distances, which usually leads to smoother swings and better contact. And the second thing you will notice is none of us are as good with an iron in our hands as we thought we were.   



 

I'm sure.  If there is a slight wind and I have green to work with, I typically take one extra club and you are absolutely correct, you swing easier and make better contact.  

[cnosil]

35 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

For particular club data like those, as others mentioned, it may be more beneficial to work with an LM at the range.

It can be done without a LM.   I love launch monitors but you still have to be careful with the data and don’t necessarily need one.  
 

Face angle/path:  establish a target line and start the ball on one side and have it curve back to target line.  

impact location:  foot powder 

low point: towel behind the ball. 
 

I think Adam Young’s instruction is pretty spot on for this aspect of the game 
 

Like you I want a LM for getting distance numbers and working on ensuring I can hit random carry numbers.   Hard to do on a range since you can’t really get carry numbers or use gamer balls.  

[cnosil]

33 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... It can be a real eye opener. Other than a back pin with trouble over the green, you will be surprised how many times you could hit more club. The first thing you will notice is you aren't trying to max distances, which usually leads to smoother swings and better contact. And the second thing you will notice is none of us are as good with an iron in our hands as we thought we were.   

 

And this is why I say I want to work on ball contact.   I don’t think my short is completely due to wrong club but probably half due to really poor contact.   Hard to play for the poor contact and not too much club.  

[chisag]

15 minutes ago, cnosil said:

And this is why I say I want to work on ball contact.   I don’t think my short is completely due to wrong club but probably half due to really poor contact.   Hard to play for the poor contact and not too much club.  

 

.... And that is a big part of the equation ain't it? I wouldn't argue that you shouldn't play a club based on poor contact but I would say playing for less than perfect contact is a smart choice. Obviously we all want to make great contact and hit consistent yardages. But how often does any player do that? For some the answer is basically never. Of course improving contact should always be a goal. I play with one guy that is very consistent and played in the AZ State Am having to go through a tough qualifier. One of the best ball strikers I have ever played with and he rarely makes club selection errors. The rest of my playing pards would do better risking long (again without serious trouble long) than hitting a perfect yardage because they rarely make perfect contact. Yes, they will hit the ball much too far a few times but more often than not they will be better off than hitting seriously short due to a mishit. 

... I always recommend, at least as an experiment that a player take one more club than normal for a full 18 holes and most find they hit better shots because they aren't trying to play "perfect golf" and the percentages of managing slight to bigger mishits favors more club. To be fair, I think this is mostly players that don't know their average distances but know their best swing distances. It takes a certain amount of confidence (and ignoring your ego) to hit a 7 iron at 145 when an 8 iron is a perfect 145 club with your best swing. Hitting it full, without reservation isn't easy when the devil on your shoulder is whispering "you have too much club because you are a stud!" 

... When I made the commitment to take more club any time I felt like I was in-between two clubs, it is rare for me to hit an iron shot too long. Sure a little longer than ideal but no worse than a little shorter than ideal yet much more often than not I am relatively close to pin high. Not to be confused with having a 162 yrd shot on a par 3 with no wind and my 7 iron is my 160 club so a few yds short would still be my choice, but if there is a little wind into me or it's a front pin or I am swinging poorly that day, I'll just choke down a hair and hit my 6 iron. 

[Warrior42111]

Overall, I think the data is only as good as the person using it. Some stats are good some meh, IMO.

For instance, FIRs I think are a bad stat, personally, I replace them with ball with a normal second shot. probably the right or left rough but I have a clear 2nd shot.  So do I really need to work on tee accuracy if that's a good number?

Also putts, how are we really using that data. one could 2 putt every hole, 1st putt being over 30ft long and that's a great performance, how ever they could 2 putt every hole from 10 ft and that's not so great. Without context it might be something that work get's an immediately result in on case and not on the other.

[Shrek74]

6 hours ago, cnosil said:

This topic is the debate that goes on in my head constantly.   I know that basic stats like fairways hit, greens in regulation, and number of putts are deceiving and don’t really tell us much about our game.   Stats like we get from arccos and ShotScope are probably relevant for better golfers that don’t have glaring problems with their games.   The one thing; I believe, all these stats help with is expectation management which does help me with the mental side of the game and not getting upset with missing a fairway or green or occasionally 3 putting.   

As a 7ish handicap I feel like I have glaring problems that need attention. I need to work on face contact, low point control,  short game, and getting better in the 6-10 and 30+ foot putting  range. Basically ALL parts of my game so I need to work on everything.   

based on the article I will probably pull the shotscope tags from my clubs once again and just focus on general improvement and working on lowering my handicap.   

I think I may be in the same boat. I don't really find a ton of helpfulness in the stats I get from ShotScope and even the distances don't seem to be helping me as the numbers don't necessarily line up with what I see on the course. I also find it hard to really dig into the numbers to find specific things to target. I know my irons (approach) are the worst part of my game as I have an issue with low point and compressing the ball (flipping & casting) thus don't get the distance my swing speed says I should. My tee shots are also short due to too much spin and a bit of a power loss somewhere in the downswing (I don't think I'm using the ground as much as I should, plus not getting that woosh after the ball but before).

I need to get back and focus on the process for my irons and driver in the garage into the net with some video recording of my swing along with my swing training stuff and lessons. Stop worrying about stats and all of that and just play golf and not play golf swing.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

I wouldn't argue that you shouldn't play a club based on poor contact but I would say playing for less than perfect contact is a smart choice. 

I refuse to play for the fat toe shot 

[Josh Parker]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

It can be done without a LM.   I love launch monitors but you still have to be careful with the data and don’t necessarily need one.  
 

Face angle/path:  establish a target line and start the ball on one side and have it curve back to target line.  

impact location:  foot powder 

low point: towel behind the ball. 
 

I think Adam Young’s instruction is pretty spot on for this aspect of the game 
 

Like you I want a LM for getting distance numbers and working on ensuring I can hit random carry numbers.   Hard to do on a range since you can’t really get carry numbers or use gamer balls.  

So much can be done without a LM.  Where I have liked the LM is for launch angles and knowing what "optimal" should be.  AOA and a few others that I like to monitor when practicing but I also agree, it makes it difficult with range balls on a lot of the data.