Shallowing the Club, an Epidemic

[Shankster]

I’ve been playing golf for 27 years… been to a lot of ranges, played with all sorts of skill sets. I am seeing a growing trend in people trying to “shallow the club”… and I think it is BS.
 

Today for example, a 30’s something dude who seemed to be coordinated and athletic was practicing this move.  He blocked every single shot, every single one.  His attempt to keep the club shallow made his swing extremely flat and way off what his swing plane should be, and they were all weak shots.  

Last week was pretty much the same with a young woman.  

The week before, another guy trying to be a “hitter” and shanked every single iron shot, and hit so far on the heel with his driver it acted like a shank.

I believe they are watching too many instagram golfers show these very unnatural moves and trying to copy them is causing widespread panic and confusion with new golfers, and probably some seasoned golfers as well.  I’m guilty of it… and I don’t think it is helping anyone.

Thoughts?

Edited October 9 by Shankster

[Shankster]

I should have linked this with it, but I am not the only one.  Open winner Darren Clarke shares some my thoughts, or I guess I share them with him.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=453041741098397&vanity=PGATOURChampions

Edited October 9 by Shankster

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, Shankster said:

I should have linked this with it, but I am not the only one.  Open winner Darren Clarke shares some my thoughts, or I guess I share them with him.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=453041741098397&vanity=PGATOURChampions

everyone swings differently and you and your instructor (if you have one)  need to figure out what things work for you.   I personally  think players do shallow the club but it isn't a forced motion.  

 

[Shankster]

I agree @cnosil, most people shallow the club mostly passively in the swing.  The rehearsals I’ve been seeing they looked like a pretzel and even if it did work, the ball isn’t getting off the ground.  There would be no power in the motion they are trying to do.  Just been observing swings a lot more lately.

edit: I think the over exaggerated shallowing is what’s causing the swings I’ve observed to be the issue.

Edited October 10 by Shankster

[cnosil]

8 minutes ago, Shankster said:

edit: I think the over exaggerated shallowing is what’s causing the swings I’ve observed to be the issue.

Over exaggeration is another big thing in instruction.  

 

[Shankster]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Over exaggeration is another big thing in instruction.  

 

I know that it is, but, I am 99.9999% sure they are not taking lessons.  Maybe 1 guy, the one today… but I am not really sure what they would be working on.  I’ve not seen this type of stuff before.  The dude was getting super mad at himself.  I feel like I could have had him sorted in a few swings.  Shoulders were way open by about 20 yards, super flip at the ball.  A little less inside take away and use his 6’2” frame as a lever instead of swinging like Kuchar.

It frustrates me seeing this “get shallower” stuff.  A lot of people need just the opposite… again, my untrained interpretation of what I’m seeing.  A little higher hands would have done wonders for all of these people.

[Shankopotomous]

I think there has always been a "latest trend" in teaching that tried to mold everyone into the swing being taught.  It kind of turned me off to the golf academy approach going way back to the early Leadbetter days.  Just looking at the variety of students physical abilities and capabilities it didnt make sense the same moves and positions were pushed on each player.

[cnosil]

19 minutes ago, Shankopotomous said:

I think there has always been a "latest trend" in teaching that tried to mold everyone into the swing being taught.  It kind of turned me off to the golf academy approach going way back to the early Leadbetter days.  Just looking at the variety of students physical abilities and capabilities it didnt make sense the same moves and positions were pushed on each player.

I agree with you.  I have seen the Instagram page for a European instructor that teaches everyone the same swing.  They are typically junior players and every players swing looks identical.  

[Shankster]

3 hours ago, Shankopotomous said:

I think there has always been a "latest trend" in teaching that tried to mold everyone into the swing being taught.  It kind of turned me off to the golf academy approach going way back to the early Leadbetter days.  Just looking at the variety of students physical abilities and capabilities it didnt make sense the same moves and positions were pushed on each player.

That’s what I’m talking about.  Not everyone needs to get shallow, some people need to get steeper so they aren’t pushing and blocking shots 45° to the right/left depending on handedness.

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

I agree with you.  I have seen the Instagram page for a European instructor that teaches everyone the same swing.  They are typically junior players and every players swing looks identical.  

Yes. Why teach the same swing to a 5’2 guy and a 6’2 guy?  Doesn’t make sense to me.

[cnosil]

17 minutes ago, Shankster said:

 

Yes. Why teach the same swing to a 5’2 guy and a 6’2 guy?  Doesn’t make sense to me.

I am not an instructor/coach so I can’t answer that question.  

[KC Golf]

15 hours ago, Shankster said:

I know that it is, but, I am 99.9999% sure they are not taking lessons.  Maybe 1 guy, the one today… but I am not really sure what they would be working on.  I’ve not seen this type of stuff before.  The dude was getting super mad at himself.  I feel like I could have had him sorted in a few swings.  Shoulders were way open by about 20 yards, super flip at the ball.  A little less inside take away and use his 6’2” frame as a lever instead of swinging like Kuchar.

It frustrates me seeing this “get shallower” stuff.  A lot of people need just the opposite… again, my untrained interpretation of what I’m seeing.  A little higher hands would have done wonders for all of these people.

Sometimes the best strategy is just to not really watch others people’s swings.  I am bad at taking my own advise sometimes, but it gets me out of my zone.   Really Slow players, odd techniques and weird pre shot routines.  Just get them out of your mind and just look at the fairway, the green or the scenery.

On the shallow swing, I am finding if I take good cuts with my driver, I do seem to naturally shallow it on the downswing.  Is that right or wrong, who know but it seems to work for me.  I find if I align my driver directly behind the ball I heel strike more times than not.  I know it’s not normal or probably what instructors would advise me to do.

[DaveP043]

21 hours ago, Shankster said:

I believe they are watching too many instagram golfers show these very unnatural moves and trying to copy them is causing widespread panic and confusion with new golfers, and probably some seasoned golfers as well.  I’m guilty of it… and I don’t think it is helping anyone.

Instagram, Youtube, anyone who tried to diagnose their own swing faults and come up with the right "cure" by watching random video instruction is foolish.  Beyond that, golf swings and instruction seem to go in cycles, and way too many people want to follow the current fad.  I'm sure at least a few folks here will remember the "reverse-C" move, the one that wrecked at least a few backs.  Then the stack-and-tilt, which had some positive ideas but could be WAY overdone.  Now the current term is "shallowing".  In my mind, shallowing is the result of something good, a "symptom" of proper movement, not something to be achieved for its own sake.  

What do they say about attorneys, a lawyer who represents himself in court has a fool for a client.  Well a player who tries to be his own swing instructor is much the same.

[bens197]

Some of the best ball strikers to ever play never had a profound shallowing move.

Tiger was incredibly steep in his early years and learned how to stay on plane.  Take the late 90’s when Tiger was beginning to flatten out he still kept it on plane without the massive flattening shallow drop.

@DaveP043 nailed it.  Trends come and go.  Swing your swing and learn how to keep it on plane.

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, Shankster said:

Yes. Why teach the same swing to a 5’2 guy and a 6’2 guy?  Doesn’t make sense to me.

Found the coach I was referring to.   

Here is a golf article about his approach:  https://golf.com/news/skillest-coach-andreas-kali/

If you watch the swings on his instagram page:  https://www.instagram.com/andreaskaligolf/?hl=en  While the swings are slightly different you can see they are all based on the same model and look very similar.

[cksurfdude]

This may be something completely different but I was told - in person from a teaching pro - to lower the hands in the down swing. Gotta say when I started to get it, I started to get a few really solid strikes.

[Shankster]

4 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

This may be something completely different but I was told - in person from a teaching pro - to lower the hands in the down swing. Gotta say when I started to get it, I started to get a few really solid strikes.

When I’m absolutely trying to hit a draw and get the path moving right it happens automagically. Yes, automagically.  I’m going to mess around with changing path instead of adjusting stance to hit certain shots.  Probably a terrible idea, but back when I lived in Michigan, I could get quite a few extra yards off the tee with a pull fade.  The pull as we know is a powerful shot that usually goes a bit farther than we want when it pops up.  Having that shot in the bag can be useful when done on purpose.

[cnosil]

5 hours ago, Shankster said:

When I’m absolutely trying to hit a draw and get the path moving right it happens automagically. Yes, automagically.  I’m going to mess around with changing path instead of adjusting stance to hit certain shots.  Probably a terrible idea, but back when I lived in Michigan, I could get quite a few extra yards off the tee with a pull fade.  The pull as we know is a powerful shot that usually goes a bit farther than we want when it pops up.  Having that shot in the bag can be useful when done on purpose.

Yes it probably does happen automatically for those with an inside out path but it also depends on your backswing path.   For most (slicers) with an outside in path it probably doesn’t happen at all.   Thinking about it more it probably it isn’t anything new; previously it was also described as having the shaft plane going up your forearm at left arm parallel.   
 

I just hit a stock shot;  works for 99% of the shots I need to hit.  No reason to work the ball on the course.   

[Shankster]

The two gentlemen I was playing with today asked me to hit a fade on hole 18, it was a par 3 140 yards and the fade was not the shot to hit here… or so I thought, Wirhout knowing the green contour and a mound in front of the pin I was a bit nervous to hit a fade.  Initially I set up to hit a push fade, then I remembered what I said about changing path… set up square to the target and swung the club on a slight out to in path with a slightly closed face and damn near hit a HOI.  Absolute beauty, 1.5 yard fade.  Best struck iron of the day… it really has me thinking I should use that more often. 

[Josh Parker]

10 minutes ago, Shankster said:

The two gentlemen I was playing with today asked me to hit a fade on hole 18, it was a par 3 140 yards and the fade was not the shot to hit here… or so I thought, Wirhout knowing the green contour and a mound in front of the pin I was a bit nervous to hit a fade.  Initially I set up to hit a push fade, then I remembered what I said about changing path… set up square to the target and swung the club on a slight out to in path with a slightly closed face and damn near hit a HOI.  Absolute beauty, 1.5 yard fade.  Best struck iron of the day… it really has me thinking I should use that more often. 

Controlled shots are the best.  

[bens197]

On 10/13/2024 at 9:43 PM, cksurfdude said:

This may be something completely different but I was told - in person from a teaching pro - to lower the hands in the down swing. Gotta say when I started to get it, I started to get a few really solid strikes.

This is what great instructors accomplish.  They find the proper choice of words to communicate to each student so they understand the why and how.

[Shankster]

2 hours ago, bens197 said:

This is what great instructors accomplish.  They find the proper choice of words to communicate to each student so they understand the why and how.

Not exactly related to the topic, but since working on being just a little less steep, I think I’ve gotten myself down to that dangerously low spin zone.  Need a monitor to show me what’s happening soon wise, I should probably just buy one.

[bens197]

1 hour ago, Shankster said:

Not exactly related to the topic, but since working on being just a little less steep, I think I’ve gotten myself down to that dangerously low spin zone.  Need a monitor to show me what’s happening soon wise, I should probably just buy one.

Definitely would complement the WB / WB thread. 

[vandyland]

As someone who worked very hard to try to hit a draw, I ended up with a very flat backswing and then kind of a flip, pull/draw where my hands were way behind my body in the downswing. Today, I took a lesson and the instructor was working on me being more connected and keeping my hands in front of my chest throughout the swing, it feels over the top but is still *slightly* in to out on Trackman and produces a really gentle fade. Feels very solid when I get it right. I still have the mega shallowing feel for when I need to hit an insane 40 yd hook so I guess that is good?

[Goober]

I’m waiting for the day when someone dominates the tour swinging way over the top.Than the envogue training for social media will be “over the top for the win”

[Shankster]

A guy at work last week showed me some video of his swing.  Super flat on the way back, and with nowhere to shallow he comes down fairly steep.  I asked where he saw to do that…. Instagram.  So, I gave him some times to fix it,  haven’t had a chance to talk to him yet, but I’m willing to guess he isn’t pulling them off the map anymore.

[Josh Parker]

4 hours ago, Shankster said:

A guy at work last week showed me some video of his swing.  Super flat on the way back, and with nowhere to shallow he comes down fairly steep.  I asked where he saw to do that…. Instagram.  So, I gave him some times to fix it,  haven’t had a chance to talk to him yet, but I’m willing to guess he isn’t pulling them off the map anymore.

The dangers of social media golf tips

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

I agree on the topic somewhat. I am trying to shallow but in transition. I have gotten to a point with my two coaches I now get steep going back and  I am trying to ingrain doing the opposite on the way down. It’s a slow process but so far it’s ok. I am shanking and hitting odd shots but I am also not focusing on face angle yet. When I did a drill today after all the technical stuff that focused just on contact point things felt much better and ball flight improved. There is a spot for technical changes and it takes a while for the skill  to match up with the new technique. 

Edited November 3 by Vegan_Golfer_PNW

[Coulter]

4 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

I agree on the topic somewhat. I am trying to shallow but in transition. I have gotten to a point with my two coaches I have used to get steep going back and now I am trying to ingrain doing the opposite on the way down. It’s a slow process but so far it’s ok. I am shanking and hitting odd shots but I am also not focusing on face angle yet. When I did a drill today after all the technical stuff that focused just on contact point things felt much better and ball flight improved. There is a spot for technical changes and it takes a while for the skill  to match up with the new technique. 

The guy I work with on Skillest has told me that to get more shallow I more or less just needed to start my arms moving down in the downswing earlier and avoid getting my hands stuck behind me. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Good example. Got my back swing steeper. Check of this shallowing data. Those last 4 points are averages over the last 2 months with 7i. 

[Coulter]

8 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Good example. Got my back swing steeper. Check of this shallowing data. Those last 4 points are averages over the last 2 months with 7i. 

That's awesome! What software is this?