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Here's what I'm seeing...

 

Again...the camera angle is tough, but I don't see the degree of casting that others do. I'm also not necessarily concerned that hands come inside on your takeaway, the bigger issue is that they pull the club with them. Bear in mind, the club is not necessarily an extension of the hands, and what I try to do is bring my hands/arms slightly inside while keeping the clubface square to the target. It's not a precise explanation, but if you use extremely light grip pressure while doing some takeaway drill the club face should stay square and online with the target.

 

Basically what I see you doing is taking everything, hands, clubs, arms way inside, it's very difficult to tell from the video, but I think you may be rotating the clubface wide open on the takeaway (based on what I can see at the top of the swing).

 

All of this is secondary, because mostly what I see is way too much movement in the lower body. Chances are many of the swing issues are the result of having to compensate for pulling yourself out of position during your takeaway. Start with a stable platform, work on keeping that club from getting too far inside on the takeaway, and things should start to fall into place the rest of the way.

 

As Matt suggested...there are teaching philosophies and there are ball flight laws. The former is where there is room for opinion. The latter is bound by physics, and believe me, you don't want to work with anybody who believes his own theories supersede the immutable laws of the universe.

 

The guy who tells you to hit a draw, you need to rotate your hands through impact...avoid him.

 

So many good things in that post I want to comment on.......THANK YOU!

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Here is a putting article but at the bottom it has a image of how to set up a still camera to take a posture photo, the same thing can be done with a video camera just make sure you entire body at the top of the swing is captured in the video. http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/01/better-putting.html

 

You need to get that camera angle better to really see for sure how much cast you have, how far to the inside you are off the ball, etc.

 

Edit: here is a direct link to the image

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fc7pcg60Efs/TxmhOAp1PEI/AAAAAAAAAOk/EI0GaD35i8c/s1600/DTL+Picture.bmp

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Here is a putting article but at the bottom it has a image of how to set up a still camera to take a posture photo, the same thing can be done with a video camera just make sure you entire body at the top of the swing is captured in the video. http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/01/better-putting.html

 

You need to get that camera angle better to really see for sure how much cast you have, how far to the inside you are off the ball, etc.

Will do.....& thanks.....that explains the camera angle perfectly!

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
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:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
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:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

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I'll just share the results of a little experiment I tried during league play this week. I've been fighting a mild pull for the last two seasons. When I say "mild" I mean ten yards left of target with a 5i with either a straight ball flight or a very slight draw. The only time I really fight a hook is when I overswing.

 

Anyway, the miss was a bit greater with the driver and many of my drives were ending up in the left rough. A few weeks ago I tried pulling my right foot back about 1-2" based on a diagram I saw on Hogan's foot position. Net result, I have NEVER EVER driven the ball straighter or longer. It's easier for me to make a full turn with my right foot slightly back and I find it impossible to pull or hook the ball. If I miss, it's a nice butter cut but I am absolutely pounding the ball.

 

This week, I decided to try an experiment with my irons. I've never played anything but a square stance with my irons. I would open up for my wedges but I cut the amount that I stand open with them in half. For the rest of my irons I was slightly closed. The result, my first even par round in months. I absolutely pured the ball and my confidence was through the roof.

 

I started to do some reading and there's been a number of great golfers who play with a slightly closed stance, most notably Sam Sneed who is regarded as having the "sweetest swing in golf". So I say screw this square stance silliness, if a slightly closed stance works for me 90% of the time then I'm going to run with it. As a side note, people forget that Lee Trevino played some great golf with an amazingly open stance.

 

Bottom line, there is no one swing for everyone yet I think we all become obsessed with being in the perfect positions. There's a lot of odd swings tour winning millions of dollars.

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I was just talking about stance in a putting thread a day ago maybe two... I hate using the feet as any sort of reference for ball position or alignment.

 

My routine for full shots in terms of getting alignment accurate.

~ visualize the ball flight / 40% power smooth practice swings behind the ball

~ walk into the shot right foot forward with only my right hand on the club (my trailing hand)

~ aim the face of the club at a spot on my target line 6" to 1foot in front of the ball

~ get my chest / shoulders square to my target line, take my actual grip at this point

~ look up at my target line in a distance and let my feet find their way under me to support my upper body

--> I waggle like Dufner while doing this just to keep my grip pressure light

~ look back down, set the club down lightly behind the ball and pull the trigger

 

I personally feel that my visualization of the ball flight from behind the ball and while I look up at the target in my address to check my shoulder alignment will guide my feet under me open on a cut, closed on a draw, relatively square on a slight / straight shot. I just let my natural balance take over for feet positioning. In the end I would imagine that I am pretty close to about 2" outside my neutral hip alignment (NHA, is just where your legs fall straight down in your hip sockets) give or take. if they are open, square, closed I have no clue...

 

 

 

What is moving at impact?

~ The lower body?

--> I hope not hips moving towards the ball causes shanks, hips rotating still will likely pull your shoulders open resulting in a pull, knees flexing more will fat a ball, knees straightening too early will cause a thinned shot. Weight should be posted on the lead leg at impact and the energy stored in the lower body is spent.

 

~ The shoulders?

--> Maybe a little... I feel pretty passive in my shoulders at contac, if I transition poorly then my timing is off and a little fast, open shoulders as a result. Again most of the energy in the upper body should be spent and sent down into the arms / hands at impact.

 

~ The Arms / Hands?

--> Yes, that would be the thing that controls impact the most, from 6feet behind the ball to 6 feet in front of it is pretty much all arms / hands.

 

 

Just think in general (not specific to anything really) (one-plane (OP), hybrid-plane (HP), two-plane (TP) have different lower body movements to get the swing

~ OP weight shifts a little forward and hips rotate, HP weight shift forward (slight lateral slide) then hips rotate, TP all lateral slide to front leg little hip rotation

--> regardless of the initial move to start the swing the weight gets posted up on the lead leg before the upper body does anything really.

~ hands, arms, shoulders bring the club into impact from that point forward and into the follow through.

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This has been a very informative thread so far! And especially helpful to me ;)

 

I am finding that slightly closed is giving me a better trajectory and overall "better" shot than full out square. I should video what it looks like. When I try to "step on it" they still go waaaay left. Getting better though :)

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Golf is a game of opposites...

You hit down on the ball to make it go up

You swing smoother the ball tends to go further

In stroke play, the lowest score at the end of the day wins

 

I don't recall the last time I attempted to "step on it" with any club honestly. I tend to lose distance and accuracy when i try to muscle something extra distance. I'm far more accurate by swinging chocked down and 50% with a longer club. If I don't have a longer club in the bag for the distance, well pick a good spot to layup.

 

A mental thing, I like to think of golf as a big chess board. The ball is you only chess piece treat it like the queen and protect it by picking good safe targets so that when she lands and stops rolling she is where you intended or close enough to it not to be a worry. I like to pick an exact spot I want to land the ball on all my shots visually and see the ball bounce and roll. It really happens that I actually hit the spot intended. I figure that I think at least one shot ahead "where do I want to play my next shot from" and that becomes my target.

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I don't recall the last time I attempted to "step on it" with any club honestly. I tend to lose distance and accuracy when i try to muscle something extra distance.

 

Good point.

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I also like my feet slightly closed and my shoulder square to just slightly open, I believe I said as much in my first post where I commented that you looked very closed. I think you just had to much of a good thing going! Very glad to hear that you seem to be finding your way out of the problem.

 

I'm a bit different than jmiller as far as trying to get a bit of extra distance out of a club. If I feel I am in between clubs, I will often choose the lesser club and commit to "hitting it hard!", which is not for me so much about swinging harder as it is really committing to staying down on the shot, being smooth, and getting through the ball. I can get an extra 5 yards easy out of my normal distance on all my clubs and I find this shot to be more consistent than choking down a bit on the next club up. Mostly I think its because if I think I've got too much club, even though I've choked down to accommodate that my brain still seems to want to ease up on the swing and I often still leave the ball short.

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I think I should clarify something, In my statements.

 

I will admit to having the "step on it" mentality when I played irons that were Players CBs. I knew that I had room for error in hitting the ball and getting the right distance out of the shot or close to it.

 

I now play irons that are Blades, you don't have that cushion and room for error. You try to "step on it" and miss the sweet spot you will probably only get the same distance or less then a normal swing that hits the sweet spot. So the mentality is to find the sweet spot at all costs to best control the distance on the Blade. I find that is easier for me to do by "backing off" with a longer club then "stepping on it" with the shorter club.

 

If I were go back to a CB I probably still "back off" so to speak because the control I figure I have better chance of finding the true sweet spot just like a blade. Even though i have the extra cushion you still don't have as much control on a CB not hitting the true sweet spot as you would being a little off in the still green forgiveness zone. The head is still going to twist a little when not hit on the "button" even in SGI, GI, CBs and the MOi/ COR probably be a little different. The cushion part just means it won't hurt you as badly as it would miss hitting a blade in terms of twisting and distance loss.

 

Blades honestly changed my approach to playing golf.

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Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

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I've been having a similar problem the last few days, so I went to my pro and have him take a look at it.

 

Apparently, my right shoulder is overpowering my entire swing, so that after impact, my right shoulder ends up higher than my left shoulder on the finishing position. If you can picture that, my body is kind of tilted to the left and that is what's causing the pulls.

 

He gave me this drill: try to imitate Natalie Gulbis's swing. Force the right shoulder to stay low and your body slightly tilted to the right side after finish. This is really hard to achieve if you swing hard out of control (like me) since your right shoulder will follow your hard-swung arm upwards. This is a good reminder to not overswing.

 

After practicing this a few days, my pull is gone :D

 

This is just a suggestion that worked for me, so take it FWIW. Remember: I'm a hacker, not a pro! :D

 

Oh, and I agree about the close stance... to me it brought more harm than good.

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Hi,

 

The irons are too upright for your swing plane.

 

The driver is too far forward in your stance for the flat plane.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Bruce

It's a 6 iron in both views.

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It's a 6 iron in both views.

 

 

I know.

 

There is nothing in your swing that would cause the ball to go left. In fact a swing never causes a directional problem it is always the club. The club is causing the ball to go left. so whta did you do to the club to make it go left? Nothing. There is no over the top motion in your swing, watch your let arm relative to your shoulders. That plus the hip slide (note the c position of leg to upper body at the top of the backswing and then the hard slide toward the target as you come down) action of your lower body blocks the over the top move as well.

 

so it has to be the club. My guess is that with a left miss you have worked hard to not close the club. It is not shut at the top so not likely to be shut at the bottom. tough to release the club enough when the hips are moving as fast as yours in the down swing. So the next logical assumption is irons are too upright.

 

Why do I think the driver is too far forward. Unless you do something different in your swing with your driver the laid off position at the top is an attempt to stop the ball from going left. look at any youtube video Tiger Woods when he worked with Hank Haney. So how does the ball go left. The flatter the swing plane the club moves left as it goes up. The farther the ball is forward in the stance the more your are past the bottom of the swing the more the club goes up. when you don't hit it left do you get a big slice?

 

Driver is played too far forward. ( sounds like you figured it out ) But how far back in your stance are you willing to move the ball to compensate for an upright lie angle?

 

Irons too upright driver too far forward. Common problem with shallow planed swings.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bruce

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So I am making the assumpiton you won't take my word for it. Fair enough you don't know me.

 

The following are two frames form your video same swing.

 

I measured hands to the ball in the first frame, and then copied the line exactly and moved it to the ball in the second picture. Note regardless of camera angle you are not over the top.

 

Now look at your right elbow under your left at impact. How do you get the club closed with your arms in the positon. Look at your right hand, still under the club. Look at the club face wide open just before impact.

 

Irons are too upright.swingplane.JPG

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So I am making the assumpiton you won't take my word for it. Fair enough you don't know me.

Hey, I'm always open to thoughts and ideas! The driver comment threw me though. Anyway.....Can I just choke up an inch to see if the pull is reduced?

 

Now look at your right elbow under your left at impact. How do you get the club closed with your arms in the positon. Look at your right hand, still under the club. Look at the club face wide open just before impact.

 

No clue how it closes, but I don't slice. My miss is a pull, my bad miss is a pull with a draw.

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HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
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:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

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Hey, I'm always open to thoughts and ideas! The driver comment threw me though. Anyway.....Can I just choke up an inch to see if the pull is reduced?

 

 

 

No clue how it closes, but I don't slice. My miss is a pull, my bad miss is a pull with a draw.

 

My point is it doesn't close. Just irons that are too upright. This is a real point of contention with me. Swing changes to correct poor fitting equipment. The yellow line in the picture is 54 degrees. The bottom of the shaft is probably 53 degrees (shaft plane adjusted for toe drop). The standard 6 iron is 62? choking down a inch won't be enough.

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So I am making the assumpiton you won't take my word for it. Fair enough you don't know me.

 

The following are two frames form your video same swing.

 

I measured hands to the ball in the first frame, and then copied the line exactly and moved it to the ball in the second picture. Note regardless of camera angle you are not over the top.

 

Now look at your right elbow under your left at impact. How do you get the club closed with your arms in the positon. Look at your right hand, still under the club. Look at the club face wide open just before impact.

 

Irons are too upright.swingplane.JPG

 

I think I would take your word for it word for it :)

 

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Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

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This is a real point of contention with me. Swing changes to correct poor fitting equipment.

Hard to argue that. Like JMiller said, "there are different types of swings", and as long as I'm not swinging "bad", I'd much prefer to swing naturally.

 

 

 

The standard 6 iron is 62? choking down a inch won't be enough.

Yes.....the 6 iron in the video is a Nike TW Forged iron....62Ëš lie angle.

 

How flat should I try.....2Ëš or so? Probably easier for me to just buy a single iron to test since the nearest place to have irons bent is Minneapolis....2 hours away.

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HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
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:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

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I thought the choke down was a good idea, except it changes your spine angle at address. not a bad thing just something to keep in mind during the evaluation.

 

Is there someone with a Ping fitting cart closer to you? They would have two flat in an number of options. Titleist as well. Two hours is a tough drive for an experiment.

 

I would think at least 2 flat.

 

Good Luck.

 

You can find me on the internet if I can help any further. Golfspy Matt could help as well.

 

Bruce

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I thought the choke down was a good idea, except it changes your spine angle at address. not a bad thing just something to keep in mind during the evaluation.

 

Is there someone with a Ping fitting cart closer to you? They would have two flat in an number of options. Titleist as well. Two hours is a tough drive for an experiment.

 

I would think at least 2 flat.

 

Good Luck.

 

You can find me on the internet if I can help any further. Golfspy Matt could help as well.

 

Bruce

 

Sounds like a plan! Thanks Bruce!

 

BK

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
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:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
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There's a little something you can do on your own to verify/check to see if your lie angles are off. Next time you're hitting balls, use one of those magic marker line drawing things to put a straight line on the ball. Place the ball such that it's facing away from the target line, perpendicular to the ground and the grooves on your irons. Basically you want the line to transfer to your clubface.

 

It's importnat that the line be dead straight up and down. Hit a few balls. If the line on your club face is straight or damn near so, your lie angle is fine and something else is going on. If the line is noticeably less than straight, then as Bruce suspects, your lie angles needs to be adjusted.

 

The new thinking among many credible instructors in fitters is that lie boards lie. Lie boards don't show you where the club is at impact, they show you where the club head is immediately after impact, which is not the same thing.

 

The sharpie and a line trick is something you can do on your own. It's going to be difficult for you to know whether it's 1 degree or 2, but it will certainly verify one way or another if an adjustment is needed.

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The sharpie and a line trick is something you can do on your own. It's going to be difficult for you to know whether it's 1 degree or 2, but it will certainly verify one way or another if an adjustment is needed.

I tried several shots with several different clubs. This picture is pretty consistently the angle I was getting. I added the black line for picture enhancement.

IMG_3826.JPG

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
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Is the line straight up and down on the club face? The line should be up perpendicular as opposed to parallel to the grooves. I woul normall expect a bigger mark.

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I lined the ball up horizontal. I'll go hit a few perpendicular.

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

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Ya, that leaves a much bigger mark.

IMG_3827.JPG

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

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It's a 7i. Flight was slightly high, straight, and about 10-15 yards left of target.

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

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