Hot Take: Hot Spots aren't a thing - poor ball striking is!

[GolfSpy_APH]

This is just my take and while some clubs can be better performing out of the middle of the middle, I think that poor ball striking and consistency leads to more golfers thinking there are hot spots on clubs when it just so happens that they actually find the true middle way less often than they think. 

It is just my take, but what do you think?

[GolfSpy_BNG]

I agree to a point. It is absolutely correct that most amateur golfers don’t hit the center consistently which creates the “hot spot/flier” more often and  in the true golfers mindset it’s always the clubs.   Now that said I do believe that the hollow bodied irons do inherently have hot spots which most try to correct/limit with foam.  
 

However it is the nature of the beast when using this type of iron.   
 

Also to note as you mentioned lie can have a big effect on this as well.  Not to mention the lower spinning design built into the clubs. 

[bens197]

Surely a marketing semantic, this would certainly help fitters and club vendors make a buyer feel much better about their chosen clubs performance.

What I’ve really grown to appreciate in driver technology, most notably between the years where I went from a PING G5 to a Titleist 913D3.  I could not believe how much better my poor strikes felt and performed.  This was my first A-Ha moment in golf driver tech where I really appreciated how engineering hadn’t necessarily made drivers longer, they just made the poor strikes longer.

Here we are more than a decade later, the faces have become so well-engineered that I would like to think most drivers have a higher occurrence of hitting a bad spot than a hot spot

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

3 minutes ago, bens197 said:

Surely a marketing semantic, this would certainly help fitters and club vendors make a buyer feel much better about their chosen clubs performance.

What I’ve really grown to appreciate in driver technology, most notably between the years where I went from a PING G5 to a Titleist 913D3.  I could not believe how much better my poor strikes felt and performed.  This was my first A-Ha moment in golf driver tech where I really appreciated how engineering hadn’t necessarily made drivers longer, they just made the poor strikes longer.

Here we are more than a decade later, the faces have become so well-engineered that I would like to think most drivers have a higher occurrence of hitting a bad spot than a hot spot

 

I think drivers are a bit different in that there are well know spots that provide different spin and flight characteristics due to bulge and roll. 

I was meaning or referring to irons a bit more, but you're certainly also on track for other clubs as well.

[Josh Parker]

Hmmm... this is a good topic. I do think certain clubs for high speed swinger's can get hot spots and also foam filled irons.  I also think that it's a contact issue for 90% of us.  I think it's in our heads for the majority of us. 

[Purdyd]

If I look at robot testing data on say a p790, I don’t see a spot other than the sweet spot that leads to more distance.

that has been my experience also and I’ve hit 1000s of balls.

on the other hand I can believe that depending on your ball flight and spin you could end up with a flyer

the historical flyer has been out of thicker grass with higher lofted clubs where the ball ends up with less spin and goes higher

It’s possible some are creating that situation

we’ve all hit a wedge low on the face and out it over the green

If someone has a naturally lower flighted shot shape, perhaps hitting a little above the sweet spot would lead to a higher longer shot.

i don’t think the foam is used to limit hot spots.  But the faces and weight and support structure are definitely manipulated.

and that is something that the club reviews miss out on because with these new AI designed sets there is quite a difference between the irons and I don’t think you can get the full story on the set by just hitting the 7 iron

just my thoughts on the matter 

 

 

 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

5 minutes ago, Purdyd said:

If I look at robot testing data on say a p790, I don’t see a spot other than the sweet spot that leads to more distance.

that has been my experience also and I’ve hit 1000s of balls.

on the other hand I can believe that depending on your ball flight and spin you could end up with a flyer

the historical flyer has been out of thicker grass with higher lofted clubs where the ball ends up with less spin and goes higher

It’s possible some are creating that situation

we’ve all hit a wedge low on the face and out it over the green

If someone has a naturally lower flighted shot shape, perhaps hitting a little above the sweet spot would lead to a higher longer shot.

i don’t think the foam is used to limit hot spots.  But the faces and weight and support structure are definitely manipulated.

and that is something that the club reviews miss out on because with these new AI designed sets there is quite a difference between the irons and I don’t think you can get the full story on the set by just hitting the 7 iron

just my thoughts on the matter 

 

 

 

It’s been a while ago but I remember reading when the p790’s first came out TM mentioned the speed foam being used to “deaden”(probably not quite the right word) the true sweet spot a little allowing the sweet spot to seem bigger. 

[Shrek74]

My take is similar to you, Jamie.

Clubs are so well engineered and designed these days that hot spots for the sake of being hot spots are far fewer. Do they exist, yes I do believe they are still out there. Just not nearly like they were.

"Fliers" are created by 1 of about 3 primary reasons, in my opinion.

1. Grass or debris between the ball and club contact point. Usually out of the rough, but can happen anywhere there might be some type of interference in ball to groove contact.

2. The golfer finds the absolute perfectly centered spot on the face, which is a rare occurrence. Amateurs don't find perfect middle often enough to know what it can do and thus when we do it comes across like a flier. I've seen this occasionally in a lesson, when everything lines up perfectly.

3. The perfect combo of low spin ball, low spin shaft, lower spinning heads, and more pressed loft all converge on a singular shot, causing the ball to fly longer than typical. Similar to 2, it doesn't happen often enough to understand what happened, thus its called a flier.

I'm sure there are other situations this can happen, these are just the most typical.

Physics is a ******. 

[bens197]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I think drivers are a bit different in that there are well know spots that provide different spin and flight characteristics due to bulge and roll. 

I was meaning or referring to irons a bit more, but you're certainly also on track for other clubs as well.

It makes more sense to me reading this in follow up to your post.  That was my error assuming this was explicit to drivers.  

I agree with your take that hot spots are not a thing.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Now as others have said there are 100% flier lies and conditions that create more pop or flight, but the thought that someone on the range is getting balls going to 20 or more yards different on "good strikes" I think is numb. 

Range balls for one generally suck and part of the feature with these style of irons is that that they are more forgiving and the feel is not as sensual as a traditional iron leading the more missed feeling like proper strikes. 

Another reason @GolfSpy_BEN and I would tend to agree that at least playing or owning a bladed iron isn't a bad thing but a good thing! 

[Paul Hedrick]

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This is just my take and while some clubs can be better performing out of the middle of the middle, I think that poor ball striking and consistency leads to more golfers thinking there are hot spots on clubs when it just so happens that they actually find the true middle way less often than they think. 

It is just my take, but what do you think?

I agree with you.

[TJ Hall]

I have not experienced hot spots with my irons, but years ago my dad had issues with some Nike CPR hybrids.

Only going off his words, but he noted that there was a huge difference with these hybrids.  Said they felt similar, but would fly varying distances.  This was many years ago and things have changed for the better…and lots goes into hitting a shot, so who knows.

My general thought is in agreement overall, poor contact is the main issue.

[GolfSpy_BEN]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Now as others have said there are 100% flier lies and conditions that create more pop or flight, but the thought that someone on the range is getting balls going to 20 or more yards different on "good strikes" I think is numb. 

Range balls for one generally suck and part of the feature with these style of irons is that that they are more forgiving and the feel is not as sensual as a traditional iron leading the more missed feeling like proper strikes. 

Another reason @GolfSpy_BEN and I would tend to agree that at least playing or owning a bladed iron isn't a bad thing but a good thing! 

This prompted me to head out to golf shops today, among the finds:

Blade-y Blades, but I’ll take this kind of result:

I know there are members here that disagree with me, but I earnestly believe hitting blades can help you become a better ball striker. There is no better feeling in golf than a flushed blade.

[Purdyd]

I see these small face training clubs popping up in ads for me.

i agree blades can give you more feedback when you miss the middle but i think you can still feel the center even in the hollow clubs.

And now my body appreciates a bit less feedback.  

[Shankster]

Honestly, I prefer the feel of a flier.  4-6th groove is butter, the actual sweet spot is a smidge lower and feels a bit firmer feeling.  
 

As far as the 790 UDI I have, I can only tell when I miss big, like out on the toe.  Everything else feels like a foam filled club, but off the tee I create a 4-6th groove stoke by tee height… 

[BIG STU]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy_BEN said:

This prompted me to head out to golf shops today, among the finds:

Blade-y Blades, but I’ll take this kind of result:

I know there are members here that disagree with me, but I earnestly believe hitting blades can help you become a better ball striker. There is no better feeling in golf than a flushed blade.

I happen to be one of the members who agree with you 110 %. I know the debate has raged on for years and years on here and other sites. I really do not argue it. All I know it works for me. Look at my signature and you see what I play almost every day. That is my "modern" front line set or as modern as it gets for me. If not playing those I am playing my 55 Hogan Precision blades or my 62 Macgregor FC-4000 blades and in some cases I drag out the 66 Spalding Elite blades. Those last 3 I play with persimmon woods. Heck I even dabble with Hickory stuff some. But I do not argue I just do what I do

[Josh Parker]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy_BEN said:

I know there are members here that disagree with me, but I earnestly believe hitting blades can help you become a better ball striker. There is no better feeling in golf than a flushed blade.

I 100% agree with this!  You know a good from a bad strike immediately and you learn real quick that you don't want to mishit the ball.

[Chux13]

14 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

I 100% agree with this!  You know a good from a bad strike immediately and you learn real quick that you don't want to mishit the ball.

Double agreed. Tis why I really want to go the PXG 0317T route. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

This may go against the no hot spots, but I think it just shows the forgiveness factors. 

[BIG STU]

When Ping came out with the Karsten 1 irons they preached forgiveness. My old man was famous for saying "If you want forgiveness go to church and pray because Old Man Hogan or old Man Macgregor will not forgive you"

He ran a course and a shop. When this kid came by repping Ping he showed the old man the Anser putters. My Old Man told him that was the ugliest POS putter he had ever seen and it would not sell. But he told the kid he could leave 5 on consignment plus a demo one. This was on Friday. Monday morning he was on the phone calling the Rep. He had sold all 5 that weekend. I still have the original demo one

[Josh Parker]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This may go against the no hot spots, but I think it just shows the forgiveness factors. 

This is interesting.  The accuracy with the bottom groove vs middle of the face.  I tend to agree with the forgiveness factors as most game improvement irons are generally higher handicap and will hit higher on the face. The way they have built the BO irons, it has a dual cavity and sits more middle of the face. 

[Shrek74]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This may go against the no hot spots, but I think it just shows the forgiveness factors. 

I don't think it really goes against the no hot spot theory. This really reiterates the flushed shots go longer than off-center strikes theory. At least that's my opinion on the CC reviews (which I love, btw). The more centered strikes go further in the graphs where the off-centered ones are shorter. For this club, it doesn't like low strikes. The more centered you are (tour stats), the tighter groups.

I could be wrong, but that's my thoughts on these graphs and the discussion in general.

[Josh Parker]

11 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

I don't think it really goes against the no hot spot theory. This really reiterates the flushed shots go longer than off-center strikes theory. At least that's my opinion on the CC reviews (which I love, btw). The more centered strikes go further in the graphs where the off-centered ones are shorter. For this club, it doesn't like low strikes. The more centered you are (tour stats), the tighter groups.

I could be wrong, but that's my thoughts on these graphs and the discussion in general.

Could be another great thread topic....

What does everyone consider a flushed shot? And, does it depend on the type of club...

[Purdyd]

4 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

This is interesting.  The accuracy with the bottom groove vs middle of the face.  I tend to agree with the forgiveness factors as most game improvement irons are generally higher handicap and will hit higher on the face. The way they have built the BO irons, it has a dual cavity and sits more middle of the face. 

 

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote but I would say generally higher handicappers hit low on the face and don’t hit down on the ball on the ball as much and hit with less club speed.

so the cg on game improvement clubs is lower to help get the ball up.

that black ops face seems really hot in the sweet spot  so I could see how it might lead to thinking there are flyers.

i hit a p770 wedge off a tee yesterday and just nutted it  a little higher on the face and it flew higher and it was the only wedge that I backed up on the green all day.

But it actually was a little short of my normal carry.

and for me and my ball flight high with good spin, that makes sense.  I hit on a mevo+ launch monitor and it says I’m giving up 5 yard because I have to high a ball flight and too much spin.

that works for me because if I hit a little lower on the club I can get the same distance so I end up with a more consistent distance

my flyer theory would be that someone the opposite of me who is low launch low spin might get a better result above the sweet spot and be penalized more for hitting low.

And that black ops iron really points out how sensitive these hot hollow face irons can be.  I could see how that could be an issue also.

 

[Josh Parker]

2 hours ago, Purdyd said:

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote but I would say generally higher handicappers hit low on the face and don’t hit down on the ball on the ball as much and hit with less club speed.

so the cg on game improvement clubs is lower to help get the ball up.

that black ops face seems really hot in the sweet spot  so I could see how it might lead to thinking there are flyers.

i hit a p770 wedge off a tee yesterday and just nutted it  a little higher on the face and it flew higher and it was the only wedge that I backed up on the green all day.

But it actually was a little short of my normal carry.

and for me and my ball flight high with good spin, that makes sense.  I hit on a mevo+ launch monitor and it says I’m giving up 5 yard because I have to high a ball flight and too much spin.

that works for me because if I hit a little lower on the club I can get the same distance so I end up with a more consistent distance

my flyer theory would be that someone the opposite of me who is low launch low spin might get a better result above the sweet spot and be penalized more for hitting low.

And that black ops iron really points out how sensitive these hot hollow face irons can be.  I could see how that could be an issue also.

 

I don't think most amateurs are hitting center lower line like the pros do. 

they hit all over but I would say higher in the face and these filled irons take the weight to the outside and filled the center to give more forgiveness. 

[Purdyd]

if you look at the 15 handicap versus pro pattern you see that a majority of the shots are hitting the face lower than the pro.

and quite a few are really low

and yes they are all over the place which might come back to the original hypothesis of this thread

i stand by saying i see a lot more thin shots from amateurs and their average is lower on the face.

hence these GI with low cgs

The pro is going to hit the cg sweet spot or learn to such as this diagram from Ed Sneed playing different five irons.  That would get back to perhaps some value in playing blades which give you a pretty good feedback when you don’t hit the sweet spot.

https://www.golfworks.com/analyzing-ball-impact-wear-spot-of-a-pga-tour-player/?srsltid=AfmBOoqRh3wO9Uryh1QRP1vtx9yjlZO9X4AoQUtr9oVOBkQrM8J46sTY

 

[Hook DeLoft]

Hot spot = sweet spot.  I think the issue is GI irons, especially ones filled with polymer, make small misses feel the same as shots hit out of the sweet spot.  And if you play graphite shafts, that just deadens the feel more.  When I played Wilson blades with steel shafts, I knew exactly where on the face I had made contact.  With my GI irons with graphite shafts it takes a huge miss for me to identify the area of the face where I made contact.

[GolfSpy_BEN]

22 hours ago, Chux13 said:

Double agreed. Tis why I really want to go the PXG 0317T route. 

They feel buttery on center strikes, but don’t let that sway you

[Chux13]

On 11/4/2024 at 1:51 PM, Hook DeLoft said:

Hot spot = sweet spot.  I think the issue is GI irons, especially ones filled with polymer, make small misses feel the same as shots hit out of the sweet spot.  And if you play graphite shafts, that just deadens the feel more.  When I played Wilson blades with steel shafts, I knew exactly where on the face I had made contact.  With my GI irons with graphite shafts it takes a huge miss for me to identify the area of the face where I made contact.

I feel this is a great point in considering the type of iron and the technology that creates that "sweet spot". Regardless of the technology, there will always be that one precise spot that will offer the most optimum ball strike and that will require consistent ball striking to rely on that spot for your intended shot to get the best consistent results. That being said, your mention of GI irons and misses just around that optimal location reminded me of the PXG Gen 7 reviews in which the testers were reporting consistent distances and pretty solid dispersion regardless of slight mishits around the face. Technology is providing for a much larger implied "sweet spot" that will not penalize as much as say a lower handicap players iron that allows for more shot shaping and other voodoo those players can do.

This makes me wonder if the problem is not necessarily folks having large variances in their distances due to not having the optimal swing, but if they are using the right club (players, GI, SGI etc.) for their game??? As much as I want to go the 0317T route, I may find I am not consistent enough regardless of the options through the fitting process. Maybe I would need to still consider stepping back a level and going with the Gen 7 P irons? Keep the same swing and strike tendencies for now and have a club that will allow for those inconsistencies without much penalty at all.....

Edited November 7 by Chux13
Added a sentence.

[Purdyd]

That brings up taylormade p770 2024 versus the previous version

it looks to me like they made the sweet spot less sweet giving a more consistent distance but at a penalty of overall distance.

i think there was an article stating that could be a trend.

 

Edited November 7 by Purdyd