Course set up

[revkev]

I've wanted to start a thread like this for a couple of weeks but haven't pulled the trigger because I've been out politicing for votes towards the contest. It amazes me how much course set up impacts scoring in golf tournaments and I've known it for a long time.

 

It used to be that US Opens and PGAs shared lots of the same courses but the US Open winning scores were always around even while the PGA winner would come in between 5 to 10 under. Seems to me that the USGA really manipulates the conditions of its courses. Since then I've had occasion to play a couple of courses used for regular tour events right before and right after the event plus I got to play Whistling Straits as they were preparing it for the PGA back in the early '00's - '03 I think it was. One thing I know for certain and that is you don't want to play a tour course just before the event because they grow the rough higher and then trim it back to make it uniform - it's nuts!!!!!!!!! Afterwards the course has pretty much been torn up in the landing areas with divots and the greens are about dead because they want them fast and firm so that's not so great but it's better than before by a long shot.

 

At any rate I've never played in anything resembling US Open conditions but I do know the goal at Whistling was to make it impossible for the club pros to break 80 from the tips - of course in the actual tournament the PGA guys never came close to playing from the tips. 1 and 10 were each shortened by about 60 yards - 10 was actually 100 yards shorter on the Sunday to tempt guys to try and drive it - 11 was shortened the 1st day of the tournament because lots of the field couldn't reach the fairway in the Weds practice round - the wind changed direction and it became a reachable Par 5 for many if not all.

 

This week we have Bethpage which is a great course - very tough and yet we already see it doesn't have nearly the thunder of a US Open.

 

All of this leads me to wonder about things like course ratings and slope ratings on the courses we play. Our conditions vary far more than the pros. In Florida courses are overseeded in the winter and at times this means that even the greens break differently from the rest of the year - the ball goes much farther on the drier rye grass fairways, there's very little rough because you have to water, water, water to get it to grow or the grass is dormant - in short the courses play much easier. In the spring when they can still get the greens fairly quick (before the rainy season starts in earnest) and yet start to grow the rough high it gets very, very tough and sometimes in the summer it's tough to play any hole over 400 yards because there's no roll and the rough is so thick that if you're in it you're dead.

 

So here's my question - is a courses rating and slope derived from it's potential to play hard, how it might play when it's hard or just generically based on yardage and when a surveyor came to appraise it?

 

Does anyone out there know the answer to this question?

[BK in TEXAS]

That's a great question. I've also wondered what all goes into a slope rating.

[revkev]

I'll tell you what BK - go over and play Erin Hills now and you won't be seeing the same course as they'll be playing when the US Open is there.

 

That's something that I appreciated about Blackwolf run - they would on occasion set it up so that you could play it like it was set up for the Woman's Open.

[Will Par]

Here is a link that may answer some of your questions: http://www.usga.org/handicapping/course_ratings/Using-a-Course-Ratings/

[revkev]

Nice link - it was very helpful to read that courses are rated based on midseason set up.

[revkev]

The thing this doesn't answer is how much more difficult a course becomes when greens are double rolled, watered less and rough is grown longer for club championships and the like. It also doesn't address the fact that a place like Florida has two distinct seasons - what is our in season time?

 

Finally I'd love to know the USGA's opinion as to how much more difficult it makes a course play for its Open Championship or its Amateur Championship or its Senior Open Championship.

[msp1404]

I dont think you can quantitatively figure out how much a course gets harder when doing those things, except for length. I think they just kinda "do it" to what they think is most challenging while still being fair.

[BK in TEXAS]

RPJ....Thanks for that write-up

[Will Par]

The thing this doesn't answer is how much more difficult a course becomes when greens are double rolled, watered less and rough is grown longer for club championships and the like. It also doesn't address the fact that a place like Florida has two distinct seasons - what is our in season time?Finally I'd love to know the USGA's opinion as to how much more difficult it makes a course play for its Open Championship or its Amateur Championship or its Senior Open Championship.

 

About the only way to quantify this is to look at average scores during a competition and compare to scores when conditions change. Sometimes in major championships (I think it happened at the PGA) if there is wind or rain, the average score of the field will be a couple of shots higher during the bad conditions. The US Open at Bethpage Black was much more difficult than the Barclay's will be this weekend... maybe 3 or 4 shots a round. I would guess that a Country Club setup for a tournament would seldom be more than a shot or two more difficult.

[revkev]

You are correct RP and others - I'm asking for something that can't be quantified - my initial question was answered easily enough - mid-season, normal conditions, this is how we assess the course - actually I'm impressed at how transparent it all is.

 

Thanks

[RoverRick]

About the only way to quantify this is to look at average scores during a competition and compare to scores when conditions change. Sometimes in major championships (I think it happened at the PGA) if there is wind or rain, the average score of the field will be a couple of shots higher during the bad conditions. The US Open at Bethpage Black was much more difficult than the Barclay's will be this weekend... maybe 3 or 4 shots a round. I would guess that a Country Club setup for a tournament would seldom be more than a shot or two more difficult.

 

I would say it can make much more difference than a stoke. But this depends on how hard they want it. They are getting our course together for the championship and have delayed the championship because one of the greens will not be ready. They are letting the rough grow up and since we generally do not have the fairways lined with spectators, you can lose a ball that is a foot from the fairway. The interesting thing is we usually consider ourselves lucky to have grass on the greens this time of year, but we have grass so thick you can loose a ball in the rough. The grass around the greens will be over 4 inches deep. And they are not afraid to put the pins 4 paces from the edge. They will double roll and cut the greens but they will not be dried out, because we want to keep in good shape.

 

The grass in the fairways make the course play much longer. For years there was one 400 yard par 4 that you drive inside the 100 yard marker because the ground was so hard and not much grass. This year, inside 150 marker is considered a good drive. They have plowed it and driven over it with a spiked roller 50 times this summer and seeded and planted until it is a totally different hole.

 

There is a waste area that is usually trimmed down but it is approaching 2 feet deep. (Next year it will be a lake.) And this is now on both sides of the fairway. This will be a big difference this year and that does not even take into account that 9 holes will not even be availible for practice until after the first and second rounds of the tournament. We will all play them the first time during the tournament. Talk about fun.

 

And oh yeah, the USGA team and the Sky caddie people will not be there first to give us a handicap or a slope rating. For the most part the fairways are unchanged, but all 9 tee boxes have been relocated so that most of them are no longer aimed straight down the fairway but the hazards are more in play, and all the greens have been moved to other locations. And there are some fairway bunkers that have been added. These are not the nice sand bunker that are seen on TV this year. Next year they will be sand, this year they will be 6 inch deep grass, so that if you find your ball all you can do is hack it out. Yes, we can go look at it but anyone practicing on it means disqualifacation from the tournament.

 

There have been numerous complaints about that the course is getting too hard, but I can not wait. Oh yeah, the last hole on the front is an island green. And the last three holes, 16, 17, 18 are all water holes. 16 and 17 built with water on three sides and 18 is an island. 16 and 18 teeboxes are islands where the fairway is along the shore and then the greens stick back out in the lake. These holes will be similar to the Bear Trap.

[revkev]

In the case that RR is describing there will eventually be a re-eval of that course in order to reflect the changes.

 

What wouldn't be re-evaled would be growing the rough thicker, wetter or dryer than normal conditions or pin placement selections.

 

I do appreciate the USGA link provided and RP's summary because I fully understand the process used. The attempt is to rate the courses that we play under average or normal playing conditions. That makes sense. In fact it explains a lot. When of the big differences that I find between country clubs and public access courses is the tendancy of many clubs to water the heck out of their fairways thus limiting the roll. Often times you'll look at the card and wonder how a course this "short" can have a rating/slope so high - until you play it and find that you get no roll. This was especially the case when I lived up north - down here everything is wet for 6 months out of the year so it's harder to tell. (And by all accounts it's about to get wetter - would you just go away Isaac - please.) Kudos to the USGA for taking that into account.

 

On the surface I tend to agree with RR that it seems like way more than a stroke or two while its 3 or 4 stroke for the pros but that's an emmotional reaction - When I reflect on playing Brown Deer Park in Milwaukee prior to the GMO and then at other times - there is no comparison to what happens in a club's "major" compared to a tour event to a major. Frankly the best thing that could happen to you at Brown Deer was that you couldn't find your ball in the rough - there's a way better chance that you were getting it back into the fairway from the tee than from the rough. :( And that was preparing for a regular tour event - of course that course's best defense was its rough because by their standards its short.

 

Bottom line is that MyGolfSpy rocks because you can ask this sort of question and get an informed answer to it in a matter of hours.

[RoverRick]

 

Bottom line is that MyGolfSpy rocks because you can ask this sort of question and get an informed answer to it in a matter of hours.

 

I am on one of the OEM forum sites, this is a hold over from the days when all my clubs were that brand and it was the first golf web site I was on. I do not go on it much but went on it last week to ask about changing the weights in my putter to create more toe flow, but later that day I ended up buying a different putter, and then selling the first putter on eBay. The next day, over a week later, my question was "Approved" and posted on the site. I do not even own the putter anymore, and they are just getting around to "Posting" my question, let alone answering.

 

On this site, we have instant posting and that is just one reason this is so cool.

[GolfSpy WD]

I am on one of the OEM forum sites, this is a hold over from the days when all my clubs were that brand and it was the first golf web site I was on. I do not go on it much but went on it last week to ask about changing the weights in my putter to create more toe flow, but later that day I ended up buying a different putter, and then selling the first putter on eBay. The next day, over a week later, my question was "Approved" and posted on the site. I do not even own the putter anymore, and they are just getting around to "Posting" my question, let alone answering.

 

On this site, we have instant posting and that is just one reason this is so cool.

 

Hireko does the same thing with their forum, but Jeff Summit is usually very quick about approving and responding to topics. I have had a message blocked once though, which Jeff said was for legal reasons, but he still answered my question via email.

 

Point is, merchant forums have to be a lot more careful than a site like MGS, so you probably won't get a free for all like we have here. Plus, some douchebag is more likely to spam them than here.

[GolfSpy WD]

WD, Could you please explain that in a little more detail?...I'm not familiar with that...Sorry for goin OT.....

 

Thanx a lot.....

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever....

 

I won't claim to be an expert and won't repeat the post I made, but it was about spine finders and asking Jeff's advice on which was best. I had several links and he couldn't comment on them because of potential patent and legal issues.

 

The restrictions are also, I'm guessing, to prevent advertising their competitors. I'm sure they wouldn't want someone posting that Golfworks has a special on XX.

[revkev]

The US Open is what it is - I like that the 4 championships are unique to themselves although I would prefer the PGA to be even more unique - at least it's moved away from using the same courses as the US Open.

 

About five or six years ago I felt the Master's was trying to be too US Openish with the addition of heavier rough and moving the tees way back - they seem to have restored balance so that players are able to go for it on that back nine on Sunday again.

 

The US Open should be run by guys who look like the handicap committee at Bushwood.

[GolfSpy WD]

Not to derail the topic, but you really hit the nail on the head about the PGA championship, it has no character. The Masters is Augusta, the US Open is crazy difficult, the British Open is links golf, what is the PGA?

[revkev]

Since I started the thread I'll buy - it should be match play - it really should - we have a regular tour match play event which I believe has succesfully debunked the what if it's not name guys theory. Heck if you were really worried about that I'm sure there's some way to settle the top 8 with 8 matches on Sunday.

 

Then course set up would really be fun. (See how I brought it back.)

[GolfSpy WD]

Since I started the thread I'll buy - it should be match play - it really should - we have a regular tour match play event which I believe has succesfully debunked the what if it's not name guys theory. Heck if you were really worried about that I'm sure there's some way to settle the top 8 with 8 matches on Sunday.

 

Then course set up would really be fun. (See how I brought it back.)

 

100% agree with you, that would be great even if I know it'll never happen

 

...especially if the course setup drastically changed the course day to day.

[BK in TEXAS]

Agree...Take it back to match play...Never should have messed with it in the firdt place....

 

I've heard the argument that it's bad for TV....especially if the popular players are eminated early....but.....I like watching match play more so than stroke play. Every hole feels like a match in and of its own.

[revkev]

Why dont' you put if over his locker with my name attached RP? I'll take the heat.

 

You have to have one 72 hole period of torture a season. If a guy can win the Masters, Open and US Open or PGA as it's currently constituted - he's an all time great because his game must be diverse.

 

I'm not talking course set up that's any more radical than using different tees on holes to set up some more risk/reward - that's what makes match play fun - most majors will lead to the conservative choice when you use that set up.

[revkev]

Pretty sure it was Hagen -

 

Great quote

[RoverRick]

What would be cool is a match play event to qualify and then the top 8 play a sudden death match to determine the champion.

 

 

The Friday night before our club championship we have a sudden death match. Anyone can join. There will be 40 people going off the first tee. And it is a huge party. Only low scores advance to the next hole. And it gets crazy from there. Just finding your ball is an experience. Oh and yes, this is preceeded by at least an hour in the bar for warm ups.