Clone Equipment

[GolfSpy Dave]

I wish you guys could have heard the call we got from Mike a few days ago. A lot of yelling and screaming about an article we wrote about our new review system we just put in place. And how he feels that our statements about their Hot List review methodology. Don't know the guy very well...but it had the same tone to it for sure.

There have been rumors of advert dollars driving reviews. Is it possible that there are payments from manufactures to GD staffers too? That could explain the emotion, if the checks stopped coming.

I am 100% not saying that kickbacks are occurring, just speculating why someone would take it so personally. Really now, yelling and screaming about a rival product? Guess your rival product was good enough to make them notice.

 

The MGS review system is better and it would be great if it drove the Hot List to extinction

[Matt Saternus]

 

The MGS review system is better and it would be great if it drove the Hot List to extinction

 

Ditto.

 

The first couple years that I golfed seriously, I really looked forward to the Hot List, like "Oh boy, I'm gonna learn something about all this new equipment." Then I found out it's basically a list of everything that you see advertised in the magazine without any substantive reviews or feedback.

 

Joe B from MA thinks the new TM driver is wicked long? Awesome, I need to go buy one right now!

 

Give me real, unbiased, scientific date any day of the week.

[jamo]

Check out this exchange between a GD reader and GD editor Mike Stachura. Kind of interesting that someone in that position would take what some may consider a rather arrogant posture:

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/blogs/golf-editors/2010/03/what-irons-to-buy.html

 

What irons to buy?

THURSDAY, MARCH 25, 2010

COMMENTS (0)

Taking a break from all things Tiger, let's answer this question from a California reader about new irons. I asked Mike Stachura, Golf Digest's Equipment Editor, to reply.

 

I need a new set of irons and I need your help! I have an average score of 90 but no "official handicap". My swing speed is between 85 to 100mph+. I currently have an imitation set of R7 RAC cavity back taylormade irons that are 6+ years old. I want to shoot in the 80's consistently and hopefully break 80 one day soon. Any suggestions, questions, or feedback?

Ryan Johnson, San Diego

 

 

Mike's reply, delivered with his characteristic sensitivity:

An IMITATION set of TaylorMade irons? Did you use imitation money to buy them? Do you drive an imitation Mercedes Benz? Do you own an imitation Golden Retriever? First things first, take those fraudulent irons and burn them. Second, write a letter of apology to TaylorMade at 5545 Fermi Court Carlsbad, CA 92008-7324. Third, take a look at the Hot List to get an idea of what's out there and what's good. Fourth, go find a pro shop that has a quality fitting program and an ample selection. See which of your favorites generally suits your mood and needs and then get fit for shaft flex, lie angle, length and grip size. Fifth, get a few lessons and regular checkups this summer with your local pro. If you're not breaking 80 by the end of the year, it's probably because you need a new driver.

--Bob Carney

 

That's terrible, and he didn't even answer the question. He should be the one sending the apology, not the reader.

[brianmontgomery2000]

Durability for clones (drivers) usually has paint wearing about 1 yr quicker then OEM and you do see more issue with cracking drivers...although if you go with a reputable seller they will warranty them 100% of the time.

 

And clubs get replaced typically quicker nowadays so this issue with clone drivers rarely becomes an issue.

 

Irons is for the most part not an issue when it comes to wear.

 

Putters generally are not something you would want to buy a clone for but drivers might shock you guys the results.

 

Why wouldn't you want a clone or component putter? I've been using the same Ping Anser-style component putter that I've had for 15 years and it still does its part. With putters, the wear and tear is not nearly so great as with say a driver. Just my experience, but component putters work pretty well!

[NGage]

I simply think it is a combination of a couple things. One...the magazines are hurting nowadays and secondly...he has to know deep down that the Hot List has become an overly hyped watered down mess of a review system. So in turn he and others are becoming defensive to save what they have left.

 

And the statements we made from incredibly reliable sources one being a person who worked for them basically claimed that the system is very bias towards to individual companies who spend more in advertising in their mag.

 

None of that surprises me....basic human nature, and just how the world works.

[NGage]

Check out this exchange between a GD reader and GD editor Mike Stachura. Kind of interesting that someone in that position would take what some may consider a rather arrogant posture:

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/blogs/golf-editors/2010/03/what-irons-to-buy.html

 

What irons to buy?

THURSDAY, MARCH 25, 2010

COMMENTS (0)

Taking a break from all things Tiger, let's answer this question from a California reader about new irons. I asked Mike Stachura, Golf Digest's Equipment Editor, to reply.

 

I need a new set of irons and I need your help! I have an average score of 90 but no "official handicap". My swing speed is between 85 to 100mph+. I currently have an imitation set of R7 RAC cavity back taylormade irons that are 6+ years old. I want to shoot in the 80's consistently and hopefully break 80 one day soon. Any suggestions, questions, or feedback?

Ryan Johnson, San Diego

 

 

Mike's reply, delivered with his characteristic sensitivity:

An IMITATION set of TaylorMade irons? Did you use imitation money to buy them? Do you drive an imitation Mercedes Benz? Do you own an imitation Golden Retriever? First things first, take those fraudulent irons and burn them. Second, write a letter of apology to TaylorMade at 5545 Fermi Court Carlsbad, CA 92008-7324. Third, take a look at the Hot List to get an idea of what's out there and what's good. Fourth, go find a pro shop that has a quality fitting program and an ample selection. See which of your favorites generally suits your mood and needs and then get fit for shaft flex, lie angle, length and grip size. Fifth, get a few lessons and regular checkups this summer with your local pro. If you're not breaking 80 by the end of the year, it's probably because you need a new driver.

--Bob Carney

 

While a bit heavy-handed, the sentiments are dead on. Clones, unlike components, are practically like stealing from the OEM's.

 

JMHO

YMMV

[Kanoito]

any news on the DiamondTour vs OEM tests?

 

I just picked up golf this year and my first set was one from DiamondTour. As I see no reviews on the website about clones, I thought maybe there were taboo here

 

I'm too new to golf to be able to give a detailed review about performance, feel, feedback, bla bla bla so I thought maybe someone here has played their clubs.

 

It would be interesting to know what you guys think.

 

Maybe we can exchange some opinions and feedback.

 

I've tried their Nike SQ Sumo2 and Ping Rapture V2 clones and just placed an order for the TM R9 clones. Also bought their Titleist Vokey clones.

 

I can only compare them to the original Rapture V2, because those are the only OEM clubs I've hit. But I honestly don't feel any difference hitting a Rapture V2 driver with Diamana shaft and a clone with their Nanotech shaft.

 

But like I said, I'm still lacking skill and experience to give a more objective feedback.

 

A set goes for under $500 and it helped me go from 36 HCP in march down to a 21-ish within 6 months. Don't know about you, but I'm satisfied!

[Tyk]

I would say that the most important thing for you as a beginner is that your clubs fit you properly, Steve, not what brand they are. As you gain experience you will learn what you like and will over time adjust your clubs accordingly. You'll also develop a better feel for what is good and what isn't. I'd be curious to know what you think of those clone clubs in a year, and then again in 3 years!

 

Although I will say that I am very leary of clones, although I disagree that they are "taking money from the OEMs" as someone else stated. I am sure there are quality clone clubs out there, but I also suspect there's a lot of total garbage and I simply have no way of telling which is which nor the time or inclination to try to sort it out.

[Justin66]

any news on the DiamondTour vs OEM tests?

 

I just picked up golf this year and my first set was one from DiamondTour. As I see no reviews on the website about clones, I thought maybe there were taboo here

 

I'm too new to golf to be able to give a detailed review about performance, feel, feedback, bla bla bla so I thought maybe someone here has played their clubs.

 

It would be interesting to know what you guys think.

 

Maybe we can exchange some opinions and feedback.

 

I've tried their Nike SQ Sumo2 and Ping Rapture V2 clones and just placed an order for the TM R9 clones. Also bought their Titleist Vokey clones.

 

I can only compare them to the original Rapture V2, because those are the only OEM clubs I've hit. But I honestly don't feel any difference hitting a Rapture V2 driver with Diamana shaft and a clone with their Nanotech shaft.

 

But like I said, I'm still lacking skill and experience to give a more objective feedback.

 

A set goes for under $500 and it helped me go from 36 HCP in march down to a 21-ish within 6 months. Don't know about you, but I'm satisfied!

 

I won't speak for everyone else, but I personally don't find them taboo. I've gamed Pinemeadow gear and was VERY satisfied with it, until I went through that "you're only a REAL golfer if you use name brands" phase. I currently game a full set of Acer XK clubs, sans the putter. Let me put it this way: My SuMo 5000 (that I bought brand new for $300 at the time) with a Grafalloy ProLaunch Platinum shaft (originally $94 that I got for $50) I installed later goes the same distance (with the same accuracy) as my Acer XK driver ($59) with True Ace Blue Crush ($17) shaft... ~265 yards. That, last time I checked, was 30 yards farther than the average male, according to the National Golf Foundation. My 85 scoring average is also a little better than average, I suppose... but since I don't game "real" equipment, apparently to some people (but not everyone, to be fair) I'm not a "real" golfer. Go figure. You have to go with reputable off brands: Diamond Tour, Hireko, Maltby/GolfWorks, Golfsmith, Alpha, Bang, SMT, Integra... there are quite a few. Sadly, there are bad companies (whether intentionally so or not), but I've been lucky enough not to find them.

 

As for Mike Stachura... he's a douchebag, plain and simple. I hate to say it, but it's true... and I try as hard as I can to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I got into it with him through an email exchange because he called golfers that don't upgrade to new gear every two years "pretenders". It's absolutely pathetic- it isn't the simple fact that people are going out and playing this awesome game, they aren't really doing it unless they're buying into the "hot list's" bullsh!t. It's akin to saying "since you aren't driving a 2008+ Porche, but taht 2002 Taurus/Kia/Tacoma/Blazer/whatever you aren't really driving". Whatever. Mr. Carney couldn't/wouldn't defend him, giving some fluff about Stachura's "passion". I even called him on stuff like Scratch and Fourteen- people having been giving good reviews of them for a while, but "Golf" Digest only just started to acknowledge them. I called it an attempt to show credibility and they didn't have a response for that, either. I also brought up the "gotta make the advertisers happy" thing- Tom Wishon writes about it in his "The Right Sticks" book- and they wouldn't respond to that, as well.

 

People get so caught up in what brands they're playing... but for any reason other than ego-feeding, who cares? Callaway, Adams, Scratch, Nike, KBS and many others are relatively new to the game... the difference being, they're better at advertising (that includes getting their gear onto the PGA Tour). Yes, they make good product, but that doesn't mean those that don't advertise can't make good stuff. Hell's Bell's, Nike didn't even develop their original technology- they bought it! And according to MULTIPLE sources, price is in NO WAY a determinate of playability. A proper fitting, yes; price tag, no.

 

Personally, I'm not going to judge you no matter what brands you game- if you've got an even temper and are a good joke-teller, that's all I care about. Not if you're playing Mizuno's with KBS's, or Evil Eye's with Apollo shafts, or whatever. You don't even have to be "good" (not saying I'm Tour Ready, though), just good company.

 

Just to come back a bit, since I couldn't figure out where to put this, but Sharpro's MC grips are ABSOLUTELY the same as Golf Prides... I know because I've used both. Is that an absolute? No... there's always a chance someone's going to find a bad batch with either brand (or both), but I will hands-down, unquestioningly support the REAL makers of the multicompound grip- Sharpro.

[Justin66]

I'm also going to add that this doesn't just work with heads. It's shafts and grips, as well. I've said it maybe 20 times, but since I have enough reputable sources behind me- not to mention that the "big boys" won't even respond to emails- you can absolutely play a very good game without using KBS, Project X or Nippon shafts. Same with graphite. I realize this upsets people, but it's true. If two shafts are exactly (or close to) the same, guess what? They'll play exactly the same. Look at the Golfworks' fitting system. You get that alphanumeric code, then look for a shaft that matches. Ever notice that there are multiple options? If each shaft was absolutely different, wouldn't you get just one option, and always the most expensive one? Since it isn't that way, it comes down to two choices: 1. buy the one that you can afford, or feel strongly about (freedom of choice); or 2. get the most expensive one, since it's OBVIOUSLY better.

 

We have this discussion with putters and balls, as well. Some unknown putter company charges $300 for theirs and people balk, but won't hesitate spending that on a Cameron... Better yet, how is a #300 Cameron better than a $120 Odyssey, or a $70 Adams (that got a good review from MGS)? It isn't... it's just what feels best for the individual. Same with Vision balls... would any of us thought twice about them just by looking at a website? I doubt it... definitely doubt it, in my particular case. Having the opportunity to talk with Boz (thanks to MGS) has been enlightening, at worst. Digesting what he says, and having the opportunity to openly communicate with him makes a world of difference for me. The average Joe doesn't get that very often with the major OEMs. We buy into their BS, because that's all the advertisements and mainstream golf media feeds us. That's why there needs to be more places like MGS.

 

Grips are the same way. I've used the Sharpro's, the Winn's, the Karma's, Tacki-Mac's, Lamkin's, Golf Pride's and Black Widows... While an Itomic is different from a Tour Velvet, that doesn't make one or the other "better". Again, it's based on personal preferences. But can a person tell a difference between a Black Widow Tour Silk, Lamkin Performance Plus, Karma Velvet and GP Velvet? If they're the same size, I highly doubt it, unless that individual has AMAZING feel.

 

But it goes on and on... Look at the rumors that fly. This is another old point, but necessary: let's say Callaway gets bought by Dick's and they pull all their ads and dropped their prices. What then? Is Callaway still an "it" brand? It didn't work for Ben Hogan, MacGregor, or any of the older brands. Would Callaway be lumpped into the pile with all the other "lesser" brands- the Hogans, MaxFli's and every component brand? I'm willing to bet they would. It'd be unfair, but it'd happen.

[GolfSpy_X]

Justin - thanks for all the kind words you mentioned about what we do here on MyGolfSpy. You are getting me pumped to take on the golfing world in some capacity.

 

I really want to do a grass roots project of some kind to not only help spread the word about MGS but more importantly the importance of some of the things you covered in your comment and also things that we have written about over the past 2 years on MGS. We will have to get some of you guys together one night for a phone conference or web conference of some type to come up with a master plan for this.

 

Thanks again Justin and all the other on MGS that support what we are trying to do for the industry.

[Kanoito]

Justin, I truly like your point of view. That's exactly what I've encountered on my home course, people think they are real golfers just because they can afford advertised equipment.

I really wished there were more people with your attitude, just looking for some good company and not judging you by your gear.

 

One of the pros that teaches there made fun of me once because all my head covers said DiamondTourGolf instead of the usual big brands.

Then he grabs my Rapture V2 clone and starts telling me how expensive titanium is and how impossible it is to sell a driver head of titanium at that price ($79 assembled compared to the $299 for the original) and how the sound was not right, etc.

 

Later I find out he is the owner of the proshop at our course and well, I guess he felt threatened by... clones?

 

I personally think it's a pretty shitty attitude, especially coming from a "pro" who is supposed to teach people and help people enjoy this beautiful game, not bash a beginner for the clubs he's using.

 

But I've learned to live with it, whenever a flight partner asks me what I'm playing I just tell him it's a clone of whatever model so he can leave me alone.

You should look at their faces when I outdrive their $500 drivers (I live in Germany so that driver costs EUR 399 here) with my cheap stick. Then they'll ask me where can they get a set.

 

I would say that the most important thing for you as a beginner is that your clubs fit you properly, Steve, not what brand they are. As you gain experience you will learn what you like and will over time adjust your clubs accordingly. You'll also develop a better feel for what is good and what isn't. I'd be curious to know what you think of those clone clubs in a year, and then again in 3 years!

 

I guess you are right Tyk, I'll let you know next year how I feel about my clones

On the other hand, right now I can hit the original Rapture V2 and my clone and I can tell no difference.

 

So it made me wonder: are they really from the same foundries and use the same materials? or are they counterfeit clubs labeled differently?

 

To MGS, this place is awesome! I really look at golf equipment from a new perspective. Gone are the days where I would stare at the Golf Digest Hot List thinking to myself "oh that set has 4-5 stars! I should get it!"

 

A real sincere thank you to the creator and all the golf experts who fill up these forums with knowledge and useful tips. You guys really know what you are talking about!

[Tyk]

There is a big difference between counterfeit and clone. Clones have a company standing behind thier product, they are not telling you you are buying a name brand, they are telling you straight up that they are designing something similar to a name brand, and letting you decide if you think what they are selling is just as good, or good enough. Counterfeits are seeking to decieve the buyer.

[Matt Saternus]

There is a big difference between counterfeit and clone. Clones have a company standing behind thier product, they are not telling you you are buying a name brand, they are telling you straight up that they are designing something similar to a name brand, and letting you decide if you think what they are selling is just as good, or good enough. Counterfeits are seeking to decieve the buyer.

 

Excellent point, Tyk.

 

Unfortunately, my shop got slammed with a whole pile of counterfeit clubs last week. Nothing to do but eat the cost because we don't want the rep of selling fake clubs.

[Tyk]

How did that happen if you don't mind elaborating?

[Justin66]

Excellent point, Tyk.

 

Unfortunately, my shop got slammed with a whole pile of counterfeit clubs last week. Nothing to do but eat the cost because we don't want the rep of selling fake clubs.

 

That's crap, Saturn- I understand the logic, but from my point of view, it's unfair to you and your company. But what else can be done to stop this? I hate it, because of how much it screws everyone up. Aside from an all-out war on counterfeiters, I can't think of any logical/ethical/legal ways to stop the counterfeiters... Kind of a downer.

 

Thanks for the words, MGS, but it's definitely me who should thank you. I'm just a guy who does a lot of research, but if I have a goal (or maybe a mission statement, most likely ) it's to try to show people they can enjoy an incredible game, regardless of what they play. The idea started from a local Harley-Davidson ad... "It's not WHAT you ride, it's IF you ride". That coupled with my reading Wishon's "The Right Sticks" and Frank Thomas' "Just Hit It" really changed my perception. But I don't want it to seem like I'm bashing any OEM (even though I know I've failed at that, especially early on). I am NO fan of hype and would LOVE it if they actually put some stone-cold facts in their marketing; but it's just about the freedom of choice... like playing golf: you can play a dogleg hole the way it's been laid out, or you can play it down the adjacent fairway (or through the trees). Neither way is "wrong", so long as the ball gets in the hole in the fewest strokes possible. It's like a good movie or book- open for interpretation (yes, I just came up with that... I can't believe it, either). Same with gear: play what works best for you, whether it's a Callaway, TM, Snake Eyes, Acer, whatever.

[Justin66]

 

One of the pros that teaches there made fun of me once because all my head covers said DiamondTourGolf instead of the usual big brands.

Then he grabs my Rapture V2 clone and starts telling me how expensive titanium is and how impossible it is to sell a driver head of titanium at that price ($79 assembled compared to the $299 for the original) and how the sound was not right, etc.

 

Later I find out he is the owner of the proshop at our course and well, I guess he felt threatened by... clones?

 

I personally think it's a pretty shitty attitude, especially coming from a "pro" who is supposed to teach people and help people enjoy this beautiful game, not bash a beginner for the clubs he's using.

 

But I've learned to live with it, whenever a flight partner asks me what I'm playing I just tell him it's a clone of whatever model so he can leave me alone.

You should look at their faces when I outdrive their $500 drivers (I live in Germany so that driver costs EUR 399 here) with my cheap stick. Then they'll ask me where can they get a set.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Steven... that means a lot. I will say that you shouldn't have to "live with" anything, but I like what I highlighted above. If I'm going to get beat, it isn't because of the equipment. I've been beaten by women, men, kids... they had more talent than me, that's it.

[Kanoito]

I know nothing about golf business, but I always thought pro shops get their products directly from the OEMs (not from a middleman or distributor). If that's the case, it is indeed pretty depressing that OEMs can't tell if their own product is real or not.

 

Man, I haven't touched a book since high school (it was all digital in college BTW ) but the books Justin mentioned sound really interesting. I might have to go fetch a couple of exemplars.

 

More than "live with" brain-washed people it's focusing on my own game and not caring what other people think.

 

Someday it will change, until then MGS will be there to speak the truth!

[indacup]

Best guys in the clone business are http://www.diamondtour.com

 

We are thinking of doing a head to head reviews OEM vs Clone. You guys might be shocked at the results.

 

I believe doing a test between clones and OEMS is great...w have done comparisons for years and the results really were not too surprising for us...but I am sure it would be a let down for some OEM fans

 

My question is what makes you say Diamondtour is the best in the business?

 

What criteria was used to rate them higher than the clones from Integra, Hierko and the others?

 

All use open mold designs from the same three foundries and basically same low end ti material for the faces...all have strong USA distro presence, equally stellar customer support and pricing.

[mlf16507]

I see posts for the clone this and clone that on craigslist here in Sacramento all of the time. This is the site for the local shop that posts there so you can see what I am talking about.

http://www.customgolfstop.com

Does anyone bag cloned stuff? You can always describe "your friends" experience with the gear.

I actually went to this shop to buy the Sharpro mulitcompounds last summer. Real nice people there, just a whole different world of equipment.

 

 

It looks like Customgolfstop is using high quality components. Go thru their fitting process and you will be better off than going to a Big Box retailer and buying whatever they happen to have in stock.

[indacup]

Durability for clones (drivers) usually has paint wearing about 1 yr quicker then OEM

 

That makes no sense to me...the only painted parts on a driver and F/w are the crowns...how do the crowns wear? And to state a whole year difference? How did you base this decision on? Did you have two test sample groups that you hit the same amount of times with the same velocity and retained them for multiple years to see actual "wear" differential?

 

and you do see more issue with cracking drivers..."

 

This would be very difficult to back up...there are basically 6 different grades of Ti used in driver faces and about 80% of them use the low end 6-4 blend (aka Beta-Ti) The reason it is used, is mfgs opt for low cost, very low cost material that is durable due to less density (.16 lb/in3) and lower tensile strength (135,000 psi)and therefore less prone to breakage...with the trade off less rebound capabilities.

 

When it comes to breakage issues between clones and OEM...the only REAL outbreak I remember was a few years ago when Nike recalled the Sumo 2 in 2007 when they were breaking left and right because they thinned out the face too much to compensate for the weight displacement towards the rear (engineering screw up)...Had they used a higher grade Ti face, they would have gotten away with it...but they opted to thin out the 6-4 beyond .003 and that failed.

[indacup]

I would say that the most important thing for you as a beginner is that your clubs fit you properly, Steve, not what brand they are. As you gain experience you will learn what you like and will over time adjust your clubs accordingly. You'll also develop a better feel for what is good and what isn't. I'd be curious to know what you think of those clone clubs in a year, and then again in 3 years!

 

Agreed!! 100%! Proper fitting is paramount to beginners to pros!

[indacup]

While a bit heavy-handed, the sentiments are dead on. Clones, unlike components, are practically like stealing from the OEM's.

 

JMHO

YMMV

 

I agree with this.

 

While we don't advertise clone sales, we WILL provide them if the customer insists...

 

My opinion parallels NGage, Someone spent time and money developing a design...and in my opinion, the clone companies stole that for their own use.

 

To me, buying a stolen design, is akin to buying stolen property.

[Justin66]

I agree with this.

 

While we don't advertise clone sales, we WILL provide them if the customer insists...

 

My opinion parallels NGage, Someone spent time and money developing a design...and in my opinion, the clone companies stole that for their own use.

 

To me, buying a stolen design, is akin to buying stolen property.

 

But they aren't "stealing". They are allowed to use those designs, one way or the other. If it were stealing, it's a pretty safe bet the clone companies like GigaGolf, Pinemeadow and DiamondTour would have their equipment confiscated, business taken and website shut down, since they'd be a HELLUVA lot easier to find than the counterfeiters.

 

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I gamed Pinemeadow gear for almost two years and I never had an issue. My driver, hybrid, SW and LW were Pinemeadows. There's a guy on my old league that gamed a full set of Pinemeadows, going on 5 years of having them. He shoots in the high 70's-low 80's, so I'm pretty sure they're still working for him.

 

If people think only the offbrands are using "cheap" material... sorry, but they aren't. The major OEMs do, as well... but it's a loose definition of "cheap". 6-4 and 15-3-3-3 Ti are the two most common materials used- by both the OEMs AND The "offbrands" (just as what indacup said). It's the counterfeiters that use poor material, like a mixture of Ti and who knows what else. is just some inferior mix, they've opened themselves up to a lawsuit... what reputable company would do that?

 

You can't use breakage as an issue, either... So OEM clubs are indestructable? Not likely. A buddy of mine had a FT-3 break on its third usage. Does that make it inferior? No, it's just one of those things... it stinks, but it happens. To everyone, at some point.

 

Personally, I think it's more about having perceptions shattered than anything else. Some people don't like hearing that their $1500 gear won't yield them anything better than the $300 I paid for mine. They get defensive... like trying to justify going out and buying a Lambo, when they know deep down they don't need it. I don't understand that, though... it isn't about what you buy or how much you spent (so long as it isn't counterfeit). If it's fit for your game and swing, you can spend whatever you want.

 

I'm going to restate this, but anyway: more people need to realize that this game can be accessible AND affordable. From talking to people, they don't like feeling like they have to spend $1,000+ just to get started. There's also that perception of elitism still because they hear about the $1000+ gear and the $100+ rounds of golf. They're told they aren't REAL golfers unless they're gaming the Pings, Callaways, etc., or not going to Pebble and St. Andrews. It gets disheartening, and frankly, shouldn't be that way. I tell them about my gear and it changes their mind- not for all, but most. It shows them that there ARE alternatives- quality alternatives- to getting started.

 

@indacup- you might be surprised to know that there are OEMs that use "open molds", as well. Reps from the OEMs go to the foundry and pick out a design they like. It then gets stampped/stickered with their name on it. Maltby has talked about this before, but he, like everyone else, won't name names (much like the "which Tour players are using Miura/Endo/other forgings with their sponsor's stamping on them" discussion)... which is a practice I think should stop. Everyone has the right to feel the way they do, but for me personally, I don't feel this qualifies as "stealing".

 

Yeah, I edited this. After rereading it, that highlighted line sounded pretty freaking superficial and not what I was trying to say at all... Sheesh, I thought I was a better proofreader than that.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Justin66

[Justin66]

When it comes to breakage issues between clones and OEM...the only REAL outbreak I remember was a few years ago when Nike recalled the Sumo 2 in 2007 when they were breaking left and right because they thinned out the face too much to compensate for the weight displacement towards the rear (engineering screw up)...Had they used a higher grade Ti face, they would have gotten away with it...but they opted to thin out the 6-4 beyond .003 and that failed.

 

That was the same year they got busted with drivers taht were too hot, correct? If memory serves (and it's hit-or-miss with me, sometimes... LOL) I think that's when it happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, though!

[RookieBlue7]

Maybe a little, but more likely because people pay $10 each...

 

They're that high where you're at? Wow, they're $4.95 each here.

[RookieBlue7]

The thing, for me, about clones are that the ones I've hit have all been poor in quality. I've tried Pinemeadow, Giga, etc, and never have found anything that feels right. I've used component companies, however, with great success like Golfsmith's, Maltby's lines, Wishon's lines, and GeoTech. All of the component companies have been top notch as far as I'm concerned. Most of the time, with clones, though, they're built in inferior processes with inferior materials, which leads to their feel being off from their counterparts. I'm sure there are some out there that are quality and feel right, I just haven't found them. I also know OEM's use cheaper materials at times to offset costs and increase profit margins. I'm okay with that too, so long as the club feels right. I, still, however prefer to buy slightly used and then build my clubs from scratch. The only way I'm buying new is when I can get a steal on a closeout model and then pull the shaft if it's not appropriate and put something in that works for me. That's the way I save money.

[Kanoito]

Totally agree with you Justin.

 

I've broken 2 drivers this year (around the hosel). One of them was my Rapture clone, the other one was the original Rapture. Does that mean Ping uses the same kind of "low-quality" materials? I'm new to the game, but I'm an honest believer that it's all in the player, not in the clubs.

 

An interesting fact is that most clone distributors will provide very detailed specs of the materials used, while big brands don't have that information. Why is that? Seriously, be it DiamondTour or Hireko or whatever... you can see on many specs the 1-2-3-4-5 titanium used, but that information is nowhere to be found on OEM. Hell, the clones even give you detailed specs of the shafts used tip, torque, kick point, etc.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I've seen while researching which set of clubs to buy next.

 

Talking about breakage, after I broke my clone driver I was wondering if it was really the low-quality material that had caused it or was it simply my fault. After doing a lot of calling, asking, emailing the OEMs themselves tell me that 80% of their RMAs and replacements are broken drivers.

 

Can't say which is better, but assuming they last the same, hit the same distance and have the same feel (I probably can't tell the difference between a baseball bat and hockey stick) I would go for the $400 set instead of the $2000 one any day!

[Justin66]

Totally agree with you Justin.

 

I've broken 2 drivers this year (around the hosel). One of them was my Rapture clone, the other one was the original Rapture. Does that mean Ping uses the same kind of "low-quality" materials? I'm new to the game, but I'm an honest believer that it's all in the player, not in the clubs.

 

An interesting fact is that most clone distributors will provide very detailed specs of the materials used, while big brands don't have that information. Why is that? Seriously, be it DiamondTour or Hireko or whatever... you can see on many specs the 1-2-3-4-5 titanium used, but that information is nowhere to be found on OEM. Hell, the clones even give you detailed specs of the shafts used tip, torque, kick point, etc.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I've seen while researching which set of clubs to buy next.

 

Talking about breakage, after I broke my clone driver I was wondering if it was really the low-quality material that had caused it or was it simply my fault. After doing a lot of calling, asking, emailing the OEMs themselves tell me that 80% of their RMAs and replacements are broken drivers.

 

Can't say which is better, but assuming they last the same, hit the same distance and have the same feel (I probably can't tell the difference between a baseball bat and hockey stick) I would go for the $400 set instead of the $2000 one any day!

 

Unless the OEMs are trying to showcase something, they usually hide what materials they use. It demystifies their stuff if they say "cast from 17-4 stainless" or "form-forged 6-4 Ti", because people can look and see that it's exactly the same as a component brand.

[Matt Saternus]

How did that happen if you don't mind elaborating?

 

We took the clubs as a trade-in. The person working the register was not as familiar with equipment as they could/should be. Some of the fakes were pretty good, some were obvious. Oh well, life in the big city.