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Is the 45 Inch Driver Too Long?

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I put together a Titleist 905R 10.5 * with a low spin ADDI shaft today that plays 44 inches. I also had my Razr Fit Talamonti combo that is 46". I really did not hit these many times but a couple of interesting things showed up. The first thing was that this 5 year old head with a modern shaft was pretty good. I did not tip the ADDI but because of the thru bore design it had the same effect so it played stiffer than before which I needed. As far a different performances goes, both performed great on good swings and bad on bad swings. I will have to gather more data before making to much of a determination. I am also curious about loft on the driver. When you consider that all it really takes to hit the ball higher is a slight tilt of the shoulders, plus different shaft kick points I am not sure if having a 10.5 v 9.5 driver really makes much difference.

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I put together a Titleist 905R 10.5 * with a low spin ADDI shaft today that plays 44 inches. I also had my Razr Fit Talamonti combo that is 46". I really did not hit these many times but a couple of interesting things showed up. The first thing was that this 5 year old head with a modern shaft was pretty good. I did not tip the ADDI but because of the thru bore design it had the same effect so it played stiffer than before which I needed. As far a different performances goes, both performed great on good swings and bad on bad swings. I will have to gather more data before making to much of a determination. I am also curious about loft on the driver. When you consider that all it really takes to hit the ball higher is a slight tilt of the shoulders, plus different shaft kick points I am not sure if having a 10.5 v 9.5 driver really makes much difference.

 

Then again they might be the same loft :) I know OEMs tend to lie about the loft and I bet they've gotten worse over time. But yeah, whenever I want to hit the ball higher, I tilt back a bit.

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Are we talking about loft measured at the center of the face or true sweet spot? If the driver has any sort of face roll you are going to get two different measurements for loft at the center of the face then you will at the true sweet spot.

 

If the Driver has any sort of roll on the face from the sole to the crown (major of driver do), then you will get one reading for loft at the center of the face when you measure it and a different higher lofted reading at the true sweet spot if it is higher then the physical center. It is possible to have 8.5* measured loft at the center then 1" higher at the true sweet spot have a 11.5* measurement for loft because the amount of roll is huge on the face.

 

In short not only do OEMs lie about the actual loft measured at the center of the face they also don't tell you how much roll the face has from the sole to the crown that can also effect dynamic loft at impact. The higher the swing speed of a player you are the more you need to take into consideration the actual loft at the sweet spot and the dynamic loft to optimize launch angle and spin rates.

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I'm a little over 6'3” tall and was playing with a 45-1/8” driver which had a UST Mamiya ProForce VTS 6x shaft (69 grams).

 

The total weight of the club was 321 grams and played to a D-4 swingweight. I typically don't bother with swingweight and use MOI instead. The MOI of the club was 2,825 kg/cm^2

 

Using Tom Wishon's recommended driver lengths based on wrist-to-floor measurement, I was looking to make the driver 44-3/8” long. That was a ¾” trimming from the butt-end.

 

What convinced me to do it was I got on Trackman. I presumed that the shorter driver would improve accuracy and consistency, but was worried about clubhead speed loss.

 

I compared the 45-1/8” driver versus the 44-3/8” driver, side-by-side.

 

What I found was that I lost no more than 1 mph of clubhead speed (which I will get into). However, my launch angle was better with the shorter 44-3/8” driver and the launch direction (left vs. right) was much more consistent and tighter and I was generally much more accurate, particularly on mis-hits.

 

The problem was that when I trimmed the shaft, the weight is dramatically affected. Particularly if I wanted the shorter driver to have the same MOI as the longer driver.

 

What happens is if you want to match the MOI of a shorter driver to a longer driver, the shorter driver will have a heavier static weight.

 

According to Tom Wishon, you really don't see a difference in clubhead speed until the shaft length is a little more than ½” apart. He also recently stated that in general, a difference in 25 grams of static weight will result in 1 mph of clubhead speed.

 

So here were the measurements of both drivers when all was said and done:

 

45-1/8” driver

321 grams

2,825 kg/cm^2 MOI

 

44-3/8” driver

332 grams

2,825 kg/cm^2 MOI

 

My guess is that between the 11 grams of static weight and the ¾” of shaft length, that is why my clubhead speed went down about 1 mph. However, since my accuracy and consistency greatly improved, it's well worth the loss of 1 mph of clubhead speed. Plus, I don't think I lost any distance in the end since my launch angle improved with the spin rate being the same.

 

One other thing, my swing on video looks much improved with the shorter driver length.

 

Personally, I think your situation may be similar and you may need that lower MOI in your driver to begin with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

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In short not only do OEMs lie about the actual loft measured at the center of the face they also don't tell you how much roll the face has from the sole to the crown that can also effect dynamic loft at impact. The higher the swing speed of a player you are the more you need to take into consideration the actual loft at the sweet spot and the dynamic loft to optimize launch angle and spin rates.

 

That and the foundries all have no better than a 1* tolerance with loft (and face angle). So a driver could be stamped at 10* loft, but if you measure the center of the face the loft may be 11* or 9* or worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

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I blew the grip off my Callaway driver today, and cut the Talamonti shaft down from 46" to 44 1/2" and reinstalled the grip. Gotta love that concept. I used the driver only 5 times during the 9 holes I played. Instead of a decrease in distance I actually had an increase in distance. I think. It was pretty tuff today because of the wind but I did feel that I had more control. I would love to brag about how far I hit a drive today (338 yards) but I had a 3 club wind behind me and hit the hard pan under some trees and rolled another 60 or 80 yards but it sure was nice hitting driver/9 iron on a par 5 and I did make an eagle.

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I blew the grip off my Callaway driver today, and cut the Talamonti shaft down from 46" to 44 1/2" and reinstalled the grip. Gotta love that concept. I used the driver only 5 times during the 9 holes I played. Instead of a decrease in distance I actually had an increase in distance. I think. It was pretty tuff today because of the wind but I did feel that I had more control. I would love to brag about how far I hit a drive today (338 yards) but I had a 3 club wind behind me and hit the hard pan under some trees and rolled another 60 or 80 yards but it sure was nice hitting driver/9 iron on a par 5 and I did make an eagle.

 

 

Rick, it's absolutely possible to increase average distance with a shorter driver. You have more control over the clubhead and it's easier to repeatedly hit the sweet spot, so it makes sense.

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Rick, it's absolutely possible to increase average distance with a shorter driver. You have more control over the clubhead and it's easier to repeatedly hit the sweet spot, so it makes sense.

 

 

Yes, I have experienced this before. I fully intended to cut the Talamonti down after I played it. I left it long because I did not know if I needed the tip or the butt trimmed. I was glad it needed butt trimming. I do not have to mess with regluing it.

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Rick, it's absolutely possible to increase average distance with a shorter driver. You have more control over the clubhead and it's easier to repeatedly hit the sweet spot, so it makes sense.

 

I wonder if the launch angle is more optimal.

 

If he's hitting it further, I presume that would be on sweetspot strikes with the longer driver and shorter driver. What I saw a difference on Trackman was the launch angle was better with the shorter driver, which can help with distance.

 

 

 

 

3JACK

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I wonder if the launch angle is more optimal.

 

If he's hitting it further, I presume that would be on sweetspot strikes with the longer driver and shorter driver. What I saw a difference on Trackman was the launch angle was better with the shorter driver, which can help with distance.

 

I would suspect that for most people the increase in distance comes from a better smash factor on the shorter club like RB7 was pointing out.

 

From the Adams website on the technical page of the Adams Speedline Fast 12 LS...

Adding 0.5" of length:

Increases ball speed (1 mph).

Increases launch angle (0.5Ëš).

Adds carry distance (5 yards).

 

 

Assuming that the SF stays the same between the 44.50" and the 46.00" Driver with the same fitted shaft at both lengths same swing weight etc. The longer shaft should increase ball speed, launch angle, and distance by a little... The one thing I noticed is that I have to play around with ball position a lot when the shaft gets longer then 45.00" to get the Azimuth number that I want. in terms of attack angle. For me it seems that the longer the shaft the more I need to play the ball forward in my stance to get the proper angle of attack that I want... The more forward the ball gets pushed the higher I need to tee the ball up as well...

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Assuming that the SF stays the same between the 44.50" and the 46.00" Driver with the same fitted shaft at both lengths same swing weight etc. The longer shaft should increase ball speed, launch angle, and distance by a little... The one thing I noticed is that I have to play around with ball position a lot when the shaft gets longer then 45.00" to get the Azimuth number that I want. in terms of attack angle. For me it seems that the longer the shaft the more I need to play the ball forward in my stance to get the proper angle of attack that I want... The more forward the ball gets pushed the higher I need to tee the ball up as well...

 

 

It also increases launch angle? Seems that with the longer shaft you would have to have a flatter plane and decrease launch angle. I only have hit this driver 5 times and with the wind it was so hard to tell, but on another driver I experienced many yards gained but that was a tip trim of 2 inches not a butt trim. It is not that expect to see significant distance changes with this, but I do expect to have better misses. I already went from 265 average to 280 average with the Talamonti, going from Stiff to X Stiff Tour, but I also went from hitting the second shot from 155 in the fairway to 140 from the trees. I would rather have the 155 any day. But with the Stiff I was also experiencing the big hook to the left at very bad times.

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I would suspect that for most people the increase in distance comes from a better smash factor on the shorter club like RB7 was pointing out.

 

From the Adams website on the technical page of the Adams Speedline Fast 12 LS...

 

 

 

Assuming that the SF stays the same between the 44.50" and the 46.00" Driver with the same fitted shaft at both lengths same swing weight etc. The longer shaft should increase ball speed, launch angle, and distance by a little... The one thing I noticed is that I have to play around with ball position a lot when the shaft gets longer then 45.00" to get the Azimuth number that I want. in terms of attack angle. For me it seems that the longer the shaft the more I need to play the ball forward in my stance to get the proper angle of attack that I want... The more forward the ball gets pushed the higher I need to tee the ball up as well...

 

The longer shaft should increase clubhead speed which will increase ball speed. However, the smash factor will stay the same provided everything else is the same (attack angle, dynamic loft, face contact, etc).

 

I fooled around with the different driver lengths, side by side, with Trackman. I was curious about attack angle as well, but saw no difference. The only differences I saw were about 1 mph of clubhead speed, 1-2° of vertical launch and accuracy and precision. The shorter driver was much better on mis-hits and I didn't have those shots that I hit well, but the ball 'got away from me' which was prevalent with the longer driver.

 

Now...when I hit the longer driver flush, I hit better drives. But overall, the shorter driver produced better shots.

 

The problem I see with longer driver shaft lengths is that it makes it more difficult for a golfer to get waist bend at address which can throw off everything before the golfer begins to swing the club.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

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It also increases launch angle? Seems that with the longer shaft you would have to have a flatter plane and decrease launch angle. I only have hit this driver 5 times and with the wind it was so hard to tell, but on another driver I experienced many yards gained but that was a tip trim of 2 inches not a butt trim. It is not that expect to see significant distance changes with this, but I do expect to have better misses. I already went from 265 average to 280 average with the Talamonti, going from Stiff to X Stiff Tour, but I also went from hitting the second shot from 155 in the fairway to 140 from the trees. I would rather have the 155 any day. But with the Stiff I was also experiencing the big hook to the left at very bad times.

 

Shaft plane has little to do with launch angle.

 

A golfer can have a flat shaft plane and still have a very steep attack angle. That's because they are two different measurements that are measured from 2 different angles. Also, dynamic loft (the loft of the club at impact) plays a part in vertical launch angle.

 

Then you have the actual shaft used, clubhead CoG, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

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I have a question... More hypothetical then literal... What changes in your swing between a wedge and a Driver?

~ Better not be posture that will lead to bad things and tour players don't change their posture between clubs.

~ Better not be your position at the top of your backswing, again tour players are remarkably close in all there clubs in terms of swing sequence / positions.

--> I'll post some videos of Tiger Woods, Driver, Iron, Wedge if you think I am full of it...

 

What does change if they are not the above to things?

~ Ball position

--> I don't play a wedge the same position as a 3iron

 

~ How far away you stand from the ball

--> get fitted for shaft length and lie angle based on a consistent posture throughout the set.

 

That is all that changes for the most part, tempo, swing sequence, top positions all SHOULD stay roughly the same.

 

 

Next Question hypothetically... What does ball position effect by its self?

~ The point in which the club will make contact with the ball on its arc.

--> So this CAN effect Angle of Attack

 

Next Question hypothetically... What does shaft length effect by its self?

--> The point in which the arc finds 0* angle of attack in the swing.

 

Next Question hypothetically... What needs to happen to get the same 0* angle of attack as the shaft length increases?

~ the ball position would need to be moved to match the point in which the arc of the swing finds 0*

--> The 0* bottom of the arc would be slightly more forward in the stance as the shaft length increases it has to be... the swing arc is larger with the shaft being longer.

 

 

 

So following the laws of swing arc and 0* point, the point where 0* is on a 44.50" shaft can not be the same as a 46.00" shaft. You would basically be hitting a tiger woods stinger with a ball positioned in the 44.50" 0* angle of attack but using a 46.00" driver because the angle of attack on the 46.00" would still be slightly more negative then what it would be for the 44.50" Driver.

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So following the laws of swing arc and 0* point, the point where 0* is on a 44.50" shaft can not be the same as a 46.00" shaft. You would basically be hitting a tiger woods stinger with a ball positioned in the 44.50" 0* angle of attack but using a 46.00" driver because the angle of attack on the 46.00" would still be slightly more negative then what it would be for the 44.50" Driver.

 

So based on this you are saying that all we need to do is change our set up just a bit and we will hit the 46" driver as well as the 44.5" driver? And a 48" driver as well as a 7 iron?

 

Personally, the first thing that changes when I hit a driver vs an iron or wedge is intent. With iron or wedge I am going for a precise distance and direction. With the driver, I am going for a general area and intend to maximize my distance. I am not saying that I swing as hard as I can, not that I have not done that recently, but am more concerned with distance than accuracy. I will admit that on those times that I aimed for a particular shot and played the driver like I would an iron shot, a more controlled swing, I have had much better results, usually longer also, than I have with the "tee it high and let it fly" mentality.

 

I would also say with the irons and the wedges, I intend to hit the ball then the ground. I have found that this is not exacly the best way to hit the driver. So something in the swing needs to change in addition to my intent.

 

Also, I would say that my backswing length and top position change simply because with an iron, I do not want to hit it my full distance. I want a precise distance which is probably 15 yards at least below my max distance. This is not the case with an iron off the tee and it is why I hit a 4 iron 215 off the teebox and only 200 from the fairway.

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I'm sorry for getting WAY off topic at this point it is clear that I have to provide more information on the subject of a swing arc...

 

So based on this you are saying that all we need to do is change our set up just a bit and we will hit the 46" driver as well as the 44.5" driver? And a 48" driver as well as a 7 iron?

Let me answer this with an example...

 

Low Trajectory ~ Ball slightly back for stock position for the club, low finish.

Medium / Normal Trajectory ~ Stock Ball position for the club, normal finish.

High Trajectory ~ Ball slightly forward of stock position for the club, high finish.

 

WHY would do we do that to control trajectory? The answer is where the head is when it makes contact with the ball on its arc. At what angle the club is traveling on at the point of impact and what the angle does to the dynamic loft.

 

for irons it might look something like this...

Low = call it -5* into impact on the swing arc for the angle of attack

Medium = call it -2* into impact on the swing arc for the angle of attack

High = call it 0* into impact on the swing arc for angle of attack.

 

Angle of attack is a measurement of the path your club is taking at impact nothing more, which gives an indication as to what point the club is on during it's swing arc.

 

 

 

Personally, the first thing that changes when I hit a driver vs an iron or wedge is intent. With iron or wedge I am going for a precise distance and direction. With the driver, I am going for a general area and intend to maximize my distance. I am not saying that I swing as hard as I can, not that I have not done that recently, but am more concerned with distance than accuracy. I will admit that on those times that I aimed for a particular shot and played the driver like I would an iron shot, a more controlled swing, I have had much better results, usually longer also, than I have with the "tee it high and let it fly" mentality.

 

I would also say with the irons and the wedges, I intend to hit the ball then the ground. I have found that this is not exactly the best way to hit the driver. So something in the swing needs to change in addition to my intent.

The best players in the world go for a precise target and distance in terms of carry on every club. Intent only changes the ball position, which in return if you aware of it or not will change where the club will be on the swing arc at impact. See the above explanation on trajectory control as my example.

 

 

Also, I would say that my backswing length and top position change simply because with an iron, I do not want to hit it my full distance. I want a precise distance which is probably 15 yards at least below my max distance. This is not the case with an iron off the tee and it is why I hit a 4 iron 215 off the teebox and only 200 from the fairway.

A 1/2 swing is the same motion as a full swing stopped 1/2 way back, or at least it should be in terms of shoulder rotation and hip rotation.

A 3/4 Swing is the same motion as a full swing stopped 3/4 way back, or at least it should be in terms of shoulder rotation and hip rotation.

Just extend the swing another 1/4 rotation form the 3/4 and you have your full swing.

 

Almost every Amateur I have ever played golf with has a different angle of attack from an iron hit off a tee then one hit off the fairway, they even have a slightly different ball position without even knowing it a lot of times. I hardly think that a PGA Pro would EVER make a swing without an exact target and carry distance in mind that includes Drivers. I will of course hit a ball longer off the tee with any club then off the fairway, my angle of attack is almost always a bit different, usually a bit shallower creating more dynamic loft and a higher launch angle.

 

 

 

I'm heading out of work I'll post Tiger Woods Videos later to illustrate the point more if needed...

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New driver shaft came in today. It's a Tour Prototype BiMatrix in lime and x-flex (I'll be posting a review soon). I've got it assembled and drying currently, but I was out of my normal 1:1 Tour Set so I'm using 2:1 tour set that takes longer to cure. I'm initially going to cut it at my normal 44 7/8" playing length. Then, I'm thinking about going down to 44" with it just to see how it works.

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Almost every Amateur I have ever played golf with has a different angle ofattack from an iron hit off a tee then one hit off the fairway, they even havea slightly different ball position without even knowing it a lot of times. Ihardly think that a PGA Pro would EVER make a swing without an exact target andcarry distance in mind that includes Drivers. I will of course hit a balllonger off the tee with any club then off the fairway, my angle of attack isalmost always a bit different, usually a bit shallower creating more dynamicloft and a higher launch angle.

 

I have to call BS on a couple of things. You are sitting there saying that thepros are intentionally limiting their swings with the driver to go to an exactpoint with the driver. Seriously, you believe this. I am not saying that theyhave a particular target, something like "I am going to start the ballright at that bunker and drawing back to the center." I mean that likePhil Mickelson said one time, He knew if he choked down 3/8" on a certainclub it would hit that target. No they have no intent to limit the distance offthe tee with a driver. I always pick out a target to hit over or at but I mayhave no intention of the ball stopping anywhere near there. Every time I tee off on 14, I want the ballto start down the right side of the fairway and draw towards the 200 marker, orleft side and fade towards the marker, but I have no intention of the ballstopping there. It often does but Iwould like it to go farther, which this often happens also.

 

Also, on par 3's, I intentionally have the ball a bit farther back in my stancewhen on the tee because the ball is sitting up a little taller than when not ona tee and I want it to stop when it gets to the green. And if I hit it the same way, in the sameplace, it hits too high on the clubface causing a loss in distance or it comesoff too hot with not enough spin and while I may gain distance, this is notwhat I am after on this shot. So it must be moved or I must change my swing towhere it is more of a sweeping swing rather than down on the ball. On a par 3 if I am going to hit a 5 iron, Istill take a divot after I hit the ball so that it has the amount of spinrequired to hit and hold the greens. However, on a par 4 with water 220 out I will hit that same 5 iron offthe tee, and not take a divot, and it will go farther and certainly rollmore. I will move the ball up forward inmy stance also.

 

But here is what you are saying in these two posts. In the first post you sayevery swing with every club is exactly the same. Driver or wedge it makes nodifference. And you should vary nothing but ball position to maintain a 0*angle of attack. And in the second post you say " I will of course hit aball longer off the tee with any club then off the fairway, my angle of attackis almost always a bit different, usually a bit shallower creating more dynamicloft and a higher launch angle." So you are saying two different things.

 

So at the risk of being lectured like a recalcitrant 8 year old, I will sayagain that because of the changes in what you want to do, you change your angleof attack from either a hitting down on the ball to a more sweepingmotion. Therefore you are changingsomething in the swing besides ball position. Otherwise, you would take a divot with the driver. (I have done this and it is not beneficial. :) ) So besides ball position, you have to changesomething in your swing to change the angle of attack. So you are not just changing the ballposition in your stance but the distance that you are from it and you mustchange your swing plane ever so slightly or you would not make the desiredstrike on the ball.

 

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I have to call BS on a couple of things.

Well that is not a great way to make a good argument against me, but that's fine I'll take a look at whatever you have to say but don't expect me to hold back on pointing out your mistakes in your logic and theory.

 

 

You are sitting there saying that the pros are intentionally limiting their swings with the driver to go to an exact point with the driver. Seriously, you believe this. I am not saying that they have a particular target, something like "I am going to start the ball right at that bunker and drawing back to the center." I mean that like Phil Mickelson said one time, He knew if he choked down 3/8" on a certain club it would hit that target. No they have no intent to limit the distance off the tee with a driver.

Let me get this straight, you really think that intentionally choking down 3/8inch to get to a distance is not a intentional form of limiting distance? Wow, you clearly don't understand the principles behind the golf swing, last time I checked intentionally choking down on ANY club limits the distance of the clubs full potential. Anthony Kim is probably the only exception to choking down to limit distance because his normal swing is already choked down.

 

In short this argument is flawed, you are considering only that tempo can restrict a distance, there is more then one way to get the job done choking down also gains control and limits distance of the club.

 

 

 

I always pick out a target to hit over or at but I may have no intention of the ball stopping anywhere near there. Every time I tee off on 14, I want the ball to start down the right side of the fairway and draw towards the 200 marker, or left side and fade towards the marker, but I have no intention of the ball stopping there. It often does but I would like it to go farther, which this often happens also.

Well yea no s***, and I never said anything about TOTAL distance. I said they normally have a predefined CARRY distance. Which it sounds like you also have as well. Sometimes the Total distance means more off the tee to stay short of trouble sometimes the carry distance means more to clear trouble.

 

Again the argument is flawed because you made it based on something I didn't write. An assumption that you made that was inaccurate.

 

 

Also, on par 3's, I intentionally have the ball a bit farther back in my stance when on the tee because the ball is sitting up a little taller than when not on a tee and I want it to stop when it gets to the green. And if I hit it the same way, in the same place, it hits too high on the club face causing a loss in distance or it comes off too hot with not enough spin and while I may gain distance, this is not what I am after on this shot. So it must be moved or I must change my swing to where it is more of a sweeping swing rather than down on the ball. On a par 3 if I am going to hit a 5 iron, I still take a divot after I hit the ball so that it has the amount of spin required to hit and hold the greens. However, on a par 4 with water 220 out I will hit that same 5 iron off the tee, and not take a divot, and it will go farther and certainly roll more. I will move the ball up forward in my stance also.

You just validated my point about angle of attack changing off the tee with an iron thanks. Moving the ball back in your stance will decrease the angle of attack, moving the ball forward in your stance will increase the angle of attack REGARDLESS if it is on a tee or not. You just said you intentionally play the ball further back in your stance because the ball sits a little higher. Moving the ball "back in my stance" just changed your angle of attack when the club makes contact with the ball thus validating my point that not many AMs or pros for that matter have the exact same angle of attack off a tee with an iron then on the fairway.

 

Majority of very good players know the result as to what moving the ball position in their swing does but don't know the science and technical stuff behind it. They don't really need to know, but if you are trying to argue against my point of "almost all AMs have a different angle of attack on a tee then in the fairway" you just helped me validate the point further that it is true.

 

I would like to thank you for helping me drive home one of my statements with your own argument.

 

 

But here is what you are saying in these two posts. In the first post you say every swing with every club is exactly the same. Driver or wedge it makes no difference. And you should vary nothing but ball position to maintain a 0*angle of attack. And in the second post you say " I will of course hit a ball longer off the tee with any club then off the fairway, my angle of attack is almost always a bit different, usually a bit shallower creating more dynamic loft and a higher launch angle." So you are saying two different things.

This think is also flawed, SWING MOTION is not the same as SWING ARC. Last time I checked SWING MOTION refereed to HOW the body moves, SWING ARC referees to how the CLUB HEAD moves. Two different points all together and not the same thing or contradictory. I will happily explain to you what each means and give examples to back up my claims.

 

SWING MOTION describes how the body moves in a sequence. The sequence is almost exact in the best players in the world for a wedge and a Driver.

The only change I see in these is where he stops the rotation and in the wedge he has an earlier wrist set the body and arms remain the same motion or very close to it, I am not an expert but at least I can see clear as day that his posture, tempo, rotation are pretty much the same... Maybe that is what makes Tour Pros a ton better then you or I is that every swing that make regardless of intent is the same SWING MOTION almost.

TW Driver (2010) ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw949kRDDe4

TW Iron (2011) ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQH_MCy8Dww

TW Wedge (2010) ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YwlsaeQDuc

 

 

SWING MOTION has very little to do with SWING ARC / Ball Position that interacts with the swing arc plane with the assumption that the down swing motion is the same sequence always. We are talking about SLIGHT changes between clubs more noticeably drastic from say 3i to 6i to LW... You would find it very hard to make real good contact with a LW in a 3iron ball position right? I wounder why that is hmmmm. Maybe take a read at this and look at the image real closely and digest what is going on and why things happen. http://www.playperfectgolf.co.uk/Masterfiles/Bottom%20of%20the%20swing%20arc.htm

 

So like I said before the understanding on this topic is flawed to be able to make an argument that I contradicted myself.

 

 

 

I will say again that because of the changes in what you want to do, you change your angle of attack from either a hitting down on the ball to a more sweeping motion. Therefore you are changing something in the swing besides ball position. Otherwise, you would take a divot with the driver. (I have done this and it is not beneficial. :) ) So besides ball position, you have to change so matching in your swing to change the angle of attack. So you are not just changing the ballposition in your stance but the distance that you are from it and you must change your swing plane ever so slightly or you would not make the desired strike on the ball.

Players have manipulate the arc mostly when the ball gets out of position in the arc. We know as athletes that we HAVe to do something to make contact in the down swing or we will whiff the ball completely.

 

Changing your attack angle DIRECTLY CHANGES your swing arc they are one and the same. For the last time ATTACK ANGLE IS A MEASUREMENT TO THE SWING ARC PLANE AT CONTACT THAT THE HEAD IS TRAVELING ON. Maybe just maybe this article from Trackman will help explain what AoA is about...

http://www.hititlonger.com/blog/article/trackman-golf-launch-monitor-and-angle-of-attack-5-steps-to-optimiz-distanc/

 

here is a quote from that article

Angle of attack is how your driver head comes into the ball as you would look at the strike from face on. Either you are catching it at the bottom of the arc, which would be a 0 degree angle of attack, or you are catching it before or after that lowest point of the arc.

 

 

So at the risk of being lectured like a recalcitrant 8 year old

If you don't want to be lectured like an 8year old then why would you start out attacking my post by saying I am full of s***? I think that you should first LEARN what you are talking about and then make a more professional point to counter my claims. This is not the first time I have gotten the vibe from your posts that what I am saying is bulls*** but this is the first time you have called me out on it so I have no problem in explaining myself and pointing out where you are incorrect even if it is at the risk of sounding like an a$$hole.

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Let me get this straight, you really think that intentionally choking down3/8inch to get to a distance is not a intentional form of limiting distance?Wow, you clearly don't understand the principles behind the golf swing, lasttime I checked intentionally choking down on ANY club limits the distance ofthe clubs full potential. Anthony Kim is probably the only exception to chokingdown to limit distance because his normal swing is already choked down.

 

That was used as my example of the intent being different off the tee than in an approach shot. Phil certainly does not appear to have any intent of limiting distance off the tee box, but he certainly does in his approach and wedge shots. What I was that the first thing that differs between a driver and an iron shot is what I intend for the shot to do. The driver I want to hit as long as I can but to a certain area, where an iron I want a certain distance and aim at a spot.

 

Anthony Kim does not choke down on his driver to limit distance. He has said he thinks he hits it farther that way and he is certain he likes the feel and the control he gets from it. His intent is not to limit distance but to gain control. So this only bolsters my argument that the pros do not intend to limit distance on teeshots.

 

Ok, yes, they club down to avoid certain things but I amtalking about with driver in hand.

 

In short this argument is flawed, you are considering only that tempo canrestrict a distance, there is more then one way to get the job done chokingdown also gains control and limits distance of the club.

 

I never said a word about tempo. I strive to have the same tempo on allshot. When I am playing my best, Iaccomplish this. At my worst, I havevarying tempos and very little control. My warm up before the round is simply to establish a tempo to keep with allclubs. I vary distance by choking downon clubs and limiting my back swing but tempo is always the same. I hope.

 

Well yea no s***, and I never said anything about TOTAL distance. I said theynormally have a predefined CARRY distance. Which it sounds like you also haveas well. Sometimes the Total distance means more off the tee to stay short oftrouble sometimes the carry distance means more to clear trouble.

 

Again the argument is flawed because you made it based on something I didn'twrite. An assumption that you made that was inaccurate.

 

I must have missed the word carry. I read that sentence several to make sure I understood what you were saying. I did not see the word carry in the sentence. That is the sentence that set me off to call BS, was you saying that the pros were intentionally hitting to a certain distance off the tee. Some of them are trying to hit into another zip code. But with the word carry in there it becomes exactly what I was saying. So I must apologize for that because apparently misread it.

 

I have a question... More hypothetical then literal... What changes in yourswing between a wedge and a Driver?

~ Better not be posture that will lead to bad things and tour players don'tchange their posture between clubs.

~ Better not be your position at the top of your backswing, again tour playersare remarkably close in all there clubs in terms of swing sequence / positions.

--> I'll post some videos of Tiger Woods, Driver, Iron, Wedge if you think Iam full of it...

 

I stand corrected. I have said shaft plane a couple of times when I meant to say swing plane or swing arc.

 

Something has to change in the swing in order to change the angle of attack. You say that the posture does not change, and in terms of shoulders and spine straightens, knee flex that is true. But (posture n. A position of the body or of body parts) the bend at the waist does change. This could also be considered posture. However, I used the wrong term which did not help matters.

 

Also because the clubs are shorter, you must stand closer to the ball, which will change the swing plane. Because the swing plane is varying, you have to change the amount that you bend at the waist. Which to me would be varying the posture.

 

Please note the three videos you provided. I opened all of these and put themon the screen together. It certainly answered my question. In each one, because the club is shorter, and because the swing arc is different, and because he wishes to strike down on the ball with some clubs and flatter perhaps even assending with the driver, the amount he bends at the waist, his posture isdifferent.

 

Before you say that he does not strike up on the ball with the driver, I willtell you that on my phone app the frame before he contacts the ball, the clubhead is lower than the frame it is making contact with the ball.

 

I will say what is so impressive about these videos is that other than his ballposition and bend at the waist, everything else is identical.

 

What I was trying to get you to say was that the swing plane was dictated bythe bend at the waist. Also, I will concede that since the bend at the waist varies slightly, there are other minor changes that you have to make to stay in balance, but a so small that you cannot see them and it is only feel. The more I bend the more my butt must stick out and the more my knees have to flex to stay in balance, but like I said, you can feel the changes but they are too slight to see.

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